REFLECTOR: Water Injection

Sun Dec 11 10:00:36 CST 2011

Alex:
Here's the link:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Naturally-Aspirated-Kits/c25/index.html

Mark B. Magee
Sent from IPhone 4

On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:55 AM, "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net> wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> I had already deleted the first post unfortunately- it isn’t something I will want to install before getting flying, but I do think that it would be a big help for those of us with forced induction- I am only running about 6 psi, but that is still a lot of heat added to the intake charge without air going through the intercooler…
>  
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 4:08 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection
>  
> Alex,
> It was on my first post on this thread. I'm on the road, pmail me if you can't find it and I'll get it to you. Be advised there are numerous companies making computer controlled units. Snow Performance was one of the innovators and not the one I posted.
> 
> Mark B. Magee
> Sent from IPhone 4
> 
> On Dec 10, 2011, at 2:40 PM, "Alex Balic" <velocity_pilot at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> Hey Mark-
> Do you have the contact info for the company that makes the injection system?
>  
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Magee
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:34 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection
>  
> Alex,
> The turbo'd folks would get the greatest benefit from a water injector per all the data. Just use it in your climbout for the most part. The new computerized one would reduce the injection flow for us Normally Aspirated folks as we climbed into thinner air. With your turbo and a WOT climb your flow would be more consistent and use much more water. There is an efficiency gain I haven't discussed for my problem currently is heat, and I after heat reduction. But most data shows meaningful reduction in fuel flow and no loss of power,  particularly in Turbo'd and supercharged engines as well as turbines. NA engines see some gains but really not much to speak of, under say 5% lower fuel flow. Turbo/supercharged apps will tell you in the range of 10 or more % reduction in fuel flow for the same HP. Numbers are all over the board but the theory is that the water vapor after combustion will turn to steam and produce a "steam engine" effect and give some extra 'pop' in the power stroke. As well, some of  the H2O will break down under pressure, fire and heat into it's elements: hydrogen and oxygen, both of which are beneficial to the combustion process.
> I know a fellow in Washington state that runs a computer controlled water injector on his turbo charged, non intercooled  6.5 TD Detroit Diesel Suburban pulling a 12,000 lb trailer in the mountains in the summer. He claims he burns 1 gal of water (no methanol) for every gallon of diesel burned: he has a 30 gallon water tank. Truck never gets hot.  As well he claims 18MPG with the water on, and 11 with it turned off. Something good is happening. You can read similar stories all over the diesel truck blogs.
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Alex Balic <velocity_pilot at verizon.net> wrote:
> Please keep us posted- I would definitely be interested to see the comparisons- I am running a turbocharger- and even though it has an intercooler, takeoff would not have a lot of air going through it at first, so it would not have much effect until airborne, and less than perfect cooling during a steep climb out (roof NACA) so the water injection system would probably be a great application for at least the first few minutes of flight.
>  
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Grover McNair
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 4:51 PM
> 
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection
>  
> In a water injection system, water is injected into the air going into the intake usually ahead of the throttle body. It is vaporized thus cooling the intake charge. The vaporized water passes through the combustion chamber and out the exhaust. The crank case never sees an appreciable amount of water. This is fairly common on turbocharged high performance automotive engines.
> Grover McNair
>  
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Michalk
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 2:13 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection
>  
> Ah.  In that case, I think it's a really cool idea.
> 
> I actually have another idea that is very risky, bordering on the insane, that would be used to cool oil temperatures.
> 
> During the normal combustion of fuel, the byproducts are CO2 and water.  Now, a portion of that water makes it into our oil, where it is boiled off when the engine reaches operating temperature.  So, if there's already water in the oil, how bad could it be to add a little bit more?
> 
> The idea would be to have a really high pressure water injection system, let's say 2,000 PSI, with an atomizing nozzle that is able to deliver droplets in the micron range.  If this nozzle were installed to the crank cover (the Franklin has one) at the top of the engine, the water should never actually make contact with the engine oil.  It should instantly flash to vapor, consuming heat in the process, and then get ejected out the crankcase ventilating tube.  I suppose an alternate solution would be a cover specially made into a water jacket that sacrifices water boiling to the atmosphere, allowing the heat to be removed that way.
> 
> Actually, now that I think about it compared to conventional water injection, it's probably no more hazardous than squirting it into the hot side of the cylinder.  In my case, it would be nice to be able to sit on the taxiway without having to worry about overheating before takeoff.  For your case, you need it to cool in flight.
> 
> I don't recall; did you ever try retarding your timing to see if that helped?
> 
> On 12/9/2011 12:57 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
> Plane flying. Getting hot. I posted a month ago about my over temp issues.
> 
> Mark B. Magee
> Sent from IPhone 4
> 
> On Dec 9, 2011, at 12:53 PM, Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com> wrote:
> 
> I think a better benefit would be as an octane booster.  Perhaps you would even be able to run mogas in your IO540.
> 
> It's all theoretical at this point, whether it's in a Velocity or racer.  How practical would it be?  Perhaps its best to play with water injection after you are flying the plane?
> 
> On 12/8/2011 8:13 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
> All,
> I am pondering whether it is worth considering installing a computer controlled water/ water/methanol injector on my IO540 angle valve purely for CHT reduction. I have used them in the past in autos with good effect, and studied their uses in other applications. The numbers these http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Naturally-Aspirated-Kits/c25/index.html folks post are in line with what water injectors can achieve from my past experience. Anyone used one on a Velocity/Canard/Flying aircraft?
> >From my initial calculations less than 2 gallons of water would climb a WOT 300 HP Velocity from sea level to over 12,000 MSL and then wouldn't be needed for descent in all liklihood. So a 6 gallon tank (in the keel?) would easily handle a long cross country. In cold weather 50/50 water methanol I would think preclude induction icing, but you could always just turn it off it it was cold enough and you didn't need it.
> Just a thought, I am experimental :)
> They were OEM on turboed and supercharged aircraft in WWII. Thoughts?
> 
> Mark Magee
> N34XL XL FG 300HP
> Brady TX 
> 
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