REFLECTOR: Water Injection

Sat Dec 10 10:58:55 CST 2011

I'm in Miami. MSL, but hot. I'd have the factory look at it if you get into SFL. They're great.

Andy

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org <reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Fri Dec 09 22:05:26 2011
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection

Andrew,
Not sure where you live, I'm in Central Texas at nearly 1900 MSL and routinely take off in ambient temps over 90F (still learning all that C stuff, old dog and all that). Most all summer I'm working with over a 5000 ft density altitude. I will do everything before considering H2O injection, I wondered of any Canardians had already done it. As well I do believe H2O injection would be beneficial if for nothing else but for engine longevity.

Mark B. Magee
Sent from IPhone 4

On Dec 9, 2011, at 8:31 PM, Andrew Judge <ajudge at grovenetworks.com<mailto:ajudge at grovenetworks.com>> wrote:

How hot do your cylinders and oil get? I have the IO-360 and I can climb to 12000 with CHT less than 400 and oil less than 200. After about 5000 ft, I'm WOT. 25/25 until then. Leveled out @ 12k runs 360 / 185 F.

Just seems like a lot of work when you can probably get there with the normal cooling? I don't know about the 540, but my std 360 sure does it. I did get the cooling system modified a few years ago at the factory. It's totally dialed in now. I've waited in line at Sun n Fun and Oshkosh for 30+ minutes. I could probably leave it on the ramp all day without issues. Initially, I had uneven cyl cooling, but VGs fixed that.

Andy
N55AJ

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> <reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>>
Sent: Fri Dec 09 20:52:31 2011
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection

Grover,
I agree, and the new computer controlled units are a far cry from OEM on a P-47. They now monitor MAP (or boost) and EGT to deliver the H2O vapor. In some of the high compression engines of WW2 aviation they were mandatory for cooling and to prevent detonation. In GA most Lycoming/Continental folks didn't care because the tractor configurations facilitated good direct ram-air cooling, even while taxiing. Our pushers on the other hand suffer a disadvantage in these regards. Maybe I will have to the the guinea pig? My only concern would be to get it jetted correctly that I don't put the fires out on takeoff... :( However from my study of it, merely the HP rating gets you in the ballpark. That and a nice WOT run up would minimize chances for a flameout.

Mark B. Magee
Sent from IPhone 4

On Dec 9, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Grover McNair <grover at mcnairperformance.com<mailto:grover at mcnairperformance.com>> wrote:

From my experience, there is no down side to water injection. The amount injected is very small compared to the total volume of air and fuel. One additional advantage I have seen is that there are virtually no carbon deposits inside engines that have been running with water injection. I have never seen any wear that was attributable to water.
Grover McNair

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On Dec 9, 2011, at 5:51 PM, "Grover McNair" <grover at mcnairperformance.com<mailto:grover at mcnairperformance.com>> wrote:

In a water injection system, water is injected into the air going into the intake usually ahead of the throttle body. It is vaporized thus cooling the intake charge. The vaporized water passes through the combustion chamber and out the exhaust. The crank case never sees an appreciable amount of water. This is fairly common on turbocharged high performance automotive engines.
Grover McNair

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Michalk
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 2:13 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Water Injection

Ah.  In that case, I think it's a really cool idea.

I actually have another idea that is very risky, bordering on the insane, that would be used to cool oil temperatures.

During the normal combustion of fuel, the byproducts are CO2 and water.  Now, a portion of that water makes it into our oil, where it is boiled off when the engine reaches operating temperature.  So, if there's already water in the oil, how bad could it be to add a little bit more?

The idea would be to have a really high pressure water injection system, let's say 2,000 PSI, with an atomizing nozzle that is able to deliver droplets in the micron range.  If this nozzle were installed to the crank cover (the Franklin has one) at the top of the engine, the water should never actually make contact with the engine oil.  It should instantly flash to vapor, consuming heat in the process, and then get ejected out the crankcase ventilating tube.  I suppose an alternate solution would be a cover specially made into a water jacket that sacrifices water boiling to the atmosphere, allowing the heat to be removed that way.

Actually, now that I think about it compared to conventional water injection, it's probably no more hazardous than squirting it into the hot side of the cylinder.  In my case, it would be nice to be able to sit on the taxiway without having to worry about overheating before takeoff.  For your case, you need it to cool in flight.

I don't recall; did you ever try retarding your timing to see if that helped?

On 12/9/2011 12:57 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
Plane flying. Getting hot. I posted a month ago about my over temp issues.

Mark B. Magee
Sent from IPhone 4

On Dec 9, 2011, at 12:53 PM, Brian Michalk <michalk at awpi.com<mailto:michalk at awpi.com>> wrote:
I think a better benefit would be as an octane booster.  Perhaps you would even be able to run mogas in your IO540.

It's all theoretical at this point, whether it's in a Velocity or racer.  How practical would it be?  Perhaps its best to play with water injection after you are flying the plane?

On 12/8/2011 8:13 PM, Mark Magee wrote:
All,
I am pondering whether it is worth considering installing a computer controlled water/ water/methanol injector on my IO540 angle valve purely for CHT reduction. I have used them in the past in autos with good effect, and studied their uses in other applications. The numbers these http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Naturally-Aspirated-Kits/c25/index.html folks post are in line with what water injectors can achieve from my past experience. Anyone used one on a Velocity/Canard/Flying aircraft?
>From my initial calculations less than 2 gallons of water would climb a WOT 300 HP Velocity from sea level to over 12,000 MSL and then wouldn't be needed for descent in all liklihood. So a 6 gallon tank (in the keel?) would easily handle a long cross country. In cold weather 50/50 water methanol I would think preclude induction icing, but you could always just turn it off it it was cold enough and you didn't need it.
Just a thought, I am experimental :)
They were OEM on turboed and supercharged aircraft in WWII. Thoughts?

Mark Magee
N34XL XL FG 300HP
Brady TX

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