REFLECTOR: IVO motor

Laurence Coen lwcoen at hotmail.com
Wed Jul 8 11:05:39 CDT 2009


John,

I hate to have to say this but if you talked to the same person that I talked to the last time I had a problem, then you were talking to an idiot.  He insisted that the lead screw bearing (steel) was part of the crush plate (aluminum).  I had to call Ivo in Utah to get things sorted out.  Yes, bigger brushes should be better but the problem is not brush size.  Power is not getting from the wire connection to the brush.  Not knowing what's inside your brush holder I can't offer any help as to just what is the problem.  The IVO brushes work fine for me and others using them.  IVO uses graphite brushes like just like yours.

Larry Coen
N136LC


From: John Dibble 
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 1:56 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list 
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor


Thanks for checking your brushes.  I've seen the IVO brushes and unless they've changed them in the last few years, they are very small ~3/16 x3/16.  A brush supplier told me that brushes carry current at 80 amps/square inch.  It seems like a larger brush is needed.  Mine are 1/4 x 3/8 which should be much better, but maybe there is something special about the IVO brushes.  I called IVO yesterday.  They glossed over my diagnostic data and told me it sounded like the motor brushes (not the slip ring brushes) were worn and I should send in the motor.  I'll call them again today and discuss the brushes. 
John 

Laurence Coen wrote: 

   John, I went to the hanger yesterday and measured the voltage drop across the brush holder and slip ring.  My current limiter shuts off power at 25 amps and this gives a drop of two volts.  Your description of your brushes would indicate that you're not using the IVO supplied set.  It is also obvious that there is a problem with your current brush system not the motor.  The motor does draw a lot of current when it runs against the stop but that is normal.  You said previously that you were showing about 5 amps when the motor stalled.  That is not normal.  It should be in excess of 30 amps but is being limited by your brushes.  I'll say it again, get a brush holder from IVO. On your oil pressure and temp. The fact that you are measuring these values at a non standard location, any comparison with anybody else that is using the factory recommended location, isn't valid.  I'll tell you quite frankly that I have no idea what my pressure and temp at the oil cooler outlet might be. Larry CoenN136LC 
    
  From: John Dibble
  Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:24 PMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
   Larry, 
  I agree that the problem seems to be with the brushes.  I applied 12 v to the rings and the motor ran fine.  However, I just replaced one of the brushes and it still gives a 5 v drop between where the wire is soldered to the brush holder and the slip ring.  Have you or anyone else measured this voltage drop?  Maybe the motor is drawing a lot of current near the stops.  I think I'll use the battery charger on the rings again and note the current as it approaches the stop 
  My oil pressure and temperature sensors are right at the cooler outlet.  I know they should be at the inlet to the engine, but that is where the builder put them.  Anyway, the temp I'm seeing is not a mixture of cooled and bypassed oil as you suggested.  At what oil pressure (for the normal spring) would oil be bypassed around the cooler?  Do I understand correctly that this is a high pressure which only occurs when the oil is cold? 

  John 

  Laurence Coen wrote: 

     John, You previously stated that you had a 5 volt drop across each brush with the motor stalled.  The drop should be closer to 0.1 volt.  Before you ship off your motor I would suggest that you apply 12 volts directly to the slip rings to see if the motor will run to the stop.  If it does I would recommend that you order a new brush holder with new brushes.  If I remember correctly it only cost about $12.  With your current set up you're only getting 2 volts to the motor so you can't fault it for not doing its job. My oil pressure runs about 50 psi in flight with an oil temp of 190 F.  The stiffer spring Mike mentioned is not the spring that sets oil pressure but is the one that sets the opening pressure of the bypass.  This is why your temp went up when you raised the oil pressure.  The higher oil pressure opened the bypass and and thus bypassed the oil cooler.  The bypass valve determines how much oil goes through the oil cooler.  When you raised the pressure the total flow increased but not the flow through the oil cooler.  The temp sensor is then seeing the mixture of hot oil coming from the bypass and cool oil from the cooler.  I think the cure would be to have the stiffer bypass spring and put back the washers on the pressure side. Larry CoenN136LC 
      
    From: John Dibble
    Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 11:59 AMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
     I used the sandpaper.  Looks like all that came off was carbon.  I also cleaned the slip rings very well.  No change in performance.  One thing that adds to the problem is that my blades are 1" shorter, so more pitch change is needed.  However, I had no problems when the blades were first shortened.  Guess I'll have to send the motor in for inspection/repair.   Anyone know what type of repair to expect?  Can a local motor repair shop do the work? 
    John 

    Laurence Coen wrote: 

       John, If you made the measurements from the wire connector to the slip ring there are three places that the drop could be taking place.  They are the wire to brush, the brush to brush terminal and the brush to slip ring.  Since both brushes have the same drop it is unlikely that both would develop a bad wiring connection at the same time.  I would suspect the brush to slip ring and since you cleaned the slip rings that leaves the brushes.  Slip some fine sandpaper between the brushes and the slip rings (grit towards the brushes) and sand off the surface.  If there is a layer of burnt oil due to arcing at the brushes, this should solve your problem. Larry CoenN136LC 
        
      From: John Dibble
      Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:59 AMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
       I've cleaned the rings and still unable to reach the pitch limits.  My rings always have a little oil on them and I have never cleaned them before.  I measured the voltage drop across the brushes.  For each brush the drop is <1 volt in the middle of pitch travel increasing to 5 volts approaching the limit.  Does anyone else have this data that I can compare with? 
      John 

      Michael Watson wrote: 

        John, 
        I?ve been using the original brushes supplied by IVO for ten years now and 
        really  haven?t  had a problem with them. One problem I have run into, is that 
        the rings being in the back, develop a coat of oil which increases the resistance 
        of the brushes, the amount of time required to change the pitch through it?s cycle 
        increases. A quick cleaning of the rings and brushes with MEK usually solve 
        that problem. 
          
          
          

        On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, John Dibble ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote: 
          I think the ones supplied by IVO are too small.  Mine are 1/4x3/8?. 
          John 

          Michael Watson wrote: 

            Same as the originals. I will measure this Saturday and let you know, 
              
              
            On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM, John Dibble ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote: 
              What size (cross section) are the brushes?  I bought some replacement cartridges that fit my holder. 
              John 

              Michael Watson wrote: 

                JOHN,IVO sells a new clear transparent brush holder. You can visually check 
                the brushes while doing your walk around. I have 20 hrs. using it. Works 
                great. 
                  
                On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote: 
                  I touched the slip rings with the leads from a battery charger and the motor ran robustly in both directions.  Then, while operating the switch, I measured the volts at the leads to the brushes and saw 10 volts.  So the problem is with the brushes.  I have large brushes that I believe are the correct size.  I just replaced one because it was almost worn off.  (I broke off a large part of it a few years ago).  The other one still has a lot of brush left, but maybe I need to replace that one as well.  At least I don?t have to mess with the motor.Thanks for all the help. John--- mikewatsspg at gmail.com wrote:From: Michael Watson ?mikewatsspg at gmail.com? 
                  To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list ?reflector at tvbf.org? 
                  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motorDate: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:21:22 -0400 
                  John, 

                  I have been following this thread and Larry have given you great advise. 

                  Try this. Remove the clips from the top of the brush Assy. Connect 
                  the leads from a 10~25A battery charger to the top of the Assy one way 
                  + Red to one brush - Black to the other. the motor should run to the 
                  max of one pitch setting, reverse the leads from the charger, and the 
                  motor should run until the prop reaches the max opposite pitch. 
                  During the runs, the current reading on the charger should read 
                  between 8 to 12 Amps. 

                  If the above works, then the motor and drive system (worm gear) is ok. 
                  I regularly do this to make sure all is OK back there. 
                  Good Luck. 

                   On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 11:35 AM, ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote: 

                    I?m not sure if my IVO current is measured by the engine monitor, but I do see about a 5 amp increase with the switch on.  I measured the volts across the contact rings and got 1.7 v when switching to fine pitch (end of travel) and 3.5 v when switching to coarse pitch (pitch changing).  These numbers seem low.  What should they be? John--- lwcoen at hotmail.com wrote:From: ?Laurence Coen? ?lwcoen at hotmail.com? 
                    To: ?Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list? ?reflector at tvbf.org? 
                    Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor 
                    Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 18:13:38 -0500 
                     John, No you can?t.  The crush plates, lead screw and cam bobbin all need to be returned for repair. The blades do not have to be shipped.Larry CoenN136LC 
                      
                    From:aminetech at bluefrog.comSent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 5:31 PMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
                    I?ll try to check the current.  Can the motor be removed without removing the blades?--- lwcoen at hotmail.com wrote:From: ?Laurence Coen? ?lwcoen at hotmail.com? 
                    To: ?Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list? ?reflector at tvbf.org? 
                    Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor 
                    Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:06:48 -0500 
                     John, I had the same thing happen to me.  In my case the motor was taking excessive current.  When the prop passes thru the neutral position, the motor should take about 2 amps.  Mine was taking 20 amps and would stall before getting to the stops.  You can check this by running the prop pitch with the engine stopped and watching the ammeter.  It took three trips back to the factory to get it fixed and I?m still keeping my fingers crossed.  I also talked with Ivo himself several times.  He is currently living in the middle of nowhere Utah. I never liked the idea of the mechanical stops that simply stall the motor and the only way you know you have reached the limit is when the breaker pops.  The current rises very rapidly when you get to the stop. I designed a current limiter circuit that shuts off the motor before it stalls and turns on a light to let you know that you are at the limit.  It seems to be working well. Larry CoenN136LC 
                      
                    From:aminetech at bluefrog.comSent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:56 AMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
                    After a few hours in the TN summer heat, my engine was back together and running well again.  I made it to NY the same day in spite of T/S approaching from the west.  My skills at negotiating around weather are improving, I just don?t like this learning process...Anyway, on to the next to do.  I am unable to adjust my IVO pitch to either full extreme.  Is there a way I can check the voltage at the motor to see it it?s a poor connection, or the motor itself? John

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                 -- 
                Mike W. 
                1997 Velocity Elite RG 
                Franklin /IVO Electric CS 
                Dual GRT EFIS Synthetic Vision 

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