REFLECTOR: IVO motor
John Dibble
aminetech at bluefrog.com
Tue Jul 7 13:56:00 CDT 2009
Thanks for checking your brushes. I've seen the IVO brushes and unless
they've changed them in the last few years, they are very small ~3/16
x3/16. A brush supplier told me that brushes carry current at 80
amps/square inch. It seems like a larger brush is needed. Mine are 1/4
x 3/8 which should be much better, but maybe there is something special
about the IVO brushes. I called IVO yesterday. They glossed over my
diagnostic data and told me it sounded like the motor brushes (not the
slip ring brushes) were worn and I should send in the motor. I'll call
them again today and discuss the brushes.
John
Laurence Coen wrote:
> John, I went to the hanger yesterday and measured the voltage drop
> across the brush holder and slip ring. My current limiter shuts off
> power at 25 amps and this gives a drop of two volts. Your description
> of your brushes would indicate that you're not using the IVO supplied
> set. It is also obvious that there is a problem with your current
> brush system not the motor. The motor does draw a lot of current when
> it runs against the stop but that is normal. You said previously that
> you were showing about 5 amps when the motor stalled. That is not
> normal. It should be in excess of 30 amps but is being limited by
> your brushes. I'll say it again, get a brush holder from IVO. On your
> oil pressure and temp. The fact that you are measuring these values at
> a non standard location, any comparison with anybody else that is
> using the factory recommended location, isn't valid. I'll tell you
> quite frankly that I have no idea what my pressure and temp at the oil
> cooler outlet might be. Larry CoenN136LC
>
> From: John Dibble
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:24 PMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and
> Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
> Larry,
> I agree that the problem seems to be with the brushes. I applied 12 v
> to the rings and the motor ran fine. However, I just replaced one of
> the brushes and it still gives a 5 v drop between where the wire is
> soldered to the brush holder and the slip ring. Have you or anyone
> else measured this voltage drop? Maybe the motor is drawing a lot of
> current near the stops. I think I'll use the battery charger on the
> rings again and note the current as it approaches the stop
>
> My oil pressure and temperature sensors are right at the cooler
> outlet. I know they should be at the inlet to the engine, but that is
> where the builder put them. Anyway, the temp I'm seeing is not a
> mixture of cooled and bypassed oil as you suggested. At what oil
> pressure (for the normal spring) would oil be bypassed around the
> cooler? Do I understand correctly that this is a high pressure which
> only occurs when the oil is cold?
>
> John
>
> Laurence Coen wrote:
>
>> John, You previously stated that you had a 5 volt drop across each
>> brush with the motor stalled. The drop should be closer to 0.1
>> volt. Before you ship off your motor I would suggest that you apply
>> 12 volts directly to the slip rings to see if the motor will run to
>> the stop. If it does I would recommend that you order a new brush
>> holder with new brushes. If I remember correctly it only cost about
>> $12. With your current set up you're only getting 2 volts to the
>> motor so you can't fault it for not doing its job. My oil pressure
>> runs about 50 psi in flight with an oil temp of 190 F. The stiffer
>> spring Mike mentioned is not the spring that sets oil pressure but
>> is the one that sets the opening pressure of the bypass. This is
>> why your temp went up when you raised the oil pressure. The higher
>> oil pressure opened the bypass and and thus bypassed the oil
>> cooler. The bypass valve determines how much oil goes through the
>> oil cooler. When you raised the pressure the total flow increased
>> but not the flow through the oil cooler. The temp sensor is then
>> seeing the mixture of hot oil coming from the bypass and cool oil
>> from the cooler. I think the cure would be to have the stiffer
>> bypass spring and put back the washers on the pressure side. Larry
>> CoenN136LC
>>
>> From: John Dibble
>> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 11:59 AMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and
>> Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
>> I used the sandpaper. Looks like all that came off was carbon. I
>> also cleaned the slip rings very well. No change in performance.
>> One thing that adds to the problem is that my blades are 1" shorter,
>> so more pitch change is needed. However, I had no problems when the
>> blades were first shortened. Guess I'll have to send the motor in
>> for inspection/repair. Anyone know what type of repair to expect?
>> Can a local motor repair shop do the work?
>>
>> John
>>
>> Laurence Coen wrote:
>>
>> > John, If you made the measurements from the wire connector to the
>> > slip ring there are three places that the drop could be taking
>> > place. They are the wire to brush, the brush to brush terminal and
>> > the brush to slip ring. Since both brushes have the same drop it
>> > is unlikely that both would develop a bad wiring connection at the
>> > same time. I would suspect the brush to slip ring and since you
>> > cleaned the slip rings that leaves the brushes. Slip some fine
>> > sandpaper between the brushes and the slip rings (grit towards the
>> > brushes) and sand off the surface. If there is a layer of burnt
>> > oil due to arcing at the brushes, this should solve your problem.
>> > Larry CoenN136LC
>> >
>> > From: John Dibble
>> > Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 6:59 AMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners
>> > and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO motor
>> > I've cleaned the rings and still unable to reach the pitch
>> > limits. My rings always have a little oil on them and I have never
>> > cleaned them before. I measured the voltage drop across the
>> > brushes. For each brush the drop is <1 volt in the middle of pitch
>> > travel increasing to 5 volts approaching the limit. Does anyone
>> > else have this data that I can compare with?
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > Michael Watson wrote:
>> >
>> >> John,
>> >>
>> >> I?ve been using the original brushes supplied by IVO for ten
>> >> years now and
>> >> really haven?t had a problem with them. One problem I have run
>> >> into, is that
>> >> the rings being in the back, develop a coat of oil which
>> >> increases the resistance
>> >> of the brushes, the amount of time required to change the pitch
>> >> through it?s cycle
>> >> increases. A quick cleaning of the rings and brushes with MEK
>> >> usually solve
>> >> that problem.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:32 PM, John
>> >> Dibble ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think the ones supplied by IVO are too small. Mine
>> >> are 1/4x3/8?.
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >> Michael Watson wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Same as the originals. I will measure this Saturday
>> >> > and let you know,
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM, John
>> >> > Dibble ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > What size (cross section) are the brushes?
>> >> > I bought some replacement cartridges that
>> >> > fit my holder.
>> >> >
>> >> > John
>> >> >
>> >> > Michael Watson wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > JOHN,IVO sells a new clear transparent
>> >> > > brush holder. You can visually check
>> >> > > the brushes while doing your walk around.
>> >> > > I have 20 hrs. using it. Works
>> >> > > great.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 3:01
>> >> > > PM, ?aminetech at bluefrog.com? wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I touched the slip rings with
>> >> > > the leads from a battery charger
>> >> > > and the motor ran robustly in
>> >> > > both directions. Then, while
>> >> > > operating the switch, I measured
>> >> > > the volts at the leads to the
>> >> > > brushes and saw 10 volts. So
>> >> > > the problem is with the
>> >> > > brushes. I have large brushes
>> >> > > that I believe are the correct
>> >> > > size. I just replaced one
>> >> > > because it was almost worn off.
>> >> > > (I broke off a large part of it
>> >> > > a few years ago). The other one
>> >> > > still has a lot of brush left,
>> >> > > but maybe I need to replace that
>> >> > > one as well. At least I don?t
>> >> > > have to mess with the
>> >> > > motor.Thanks for all the help.
>> >> > > John--- mikewatsspg at gmail.com
>> >> > > wrote:From: Michael Watson
>> >> > > ?mikewatsspg at gmail.com?
>> >> > > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and
>> >> > > Builders list
>> >> > > ?reflector at tvbf.org?
>> >> > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: IVO
>> >> > > motorDate: Sun, 21 Jun 2009
>> >> > > 13:21:22 -0400
>> >> > >
>> >> > > John,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I have been following this
>> >> > > thread and Larry have given you
>> >> > > great advise.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Try this. Remove the clips from
>> >> > > the top of the brush Assy.
>> >> > > Connect
>> >> > > the leads from a 10~25A battery
>> >> > > charger to the top of the Assy
>> >> > > one way
>> >> > > + Red to one brush - Black to
>> >> > > the other. the motor should run
>> >> > > to the
>> >> > > max of one pitch setting,
>> >> > > reverse the leads from the
>> >> > > charger, and the
>> >> > > motor should run until the prop
>> >> > > reaches the max opposite pitch.
>> >> > > During the runs, the current
>> >> > > reading on the charger should
>> >> > > read
>> >> > > between 8 to 12 Amps.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > If the above works, then the
>> >> > > motor and drive system (worm
>> >> > > gear) is ok.
>> >> > > I regularly do this to make sure
>> >> > > all is OK back there.
>> >> > > Good Luck.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 11:35
>> >> > > AM, ?aminetech at bluefrog.com?
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I?m not sure if my IVO
>> >> > > current is measured by
>> >> > > the engine monitor,
>> >> > > but I do see about a 5
>> >> > > amp increase with the
>> >> > > switch on. I measured
>> >> > > the volts across the
>> >> > > contact rings and got
>> >> > > 1.7 v when switching
>> >> > > to fine pitch (end of
>> >> > > travel) and 3.5 v when
>> >> > > switching to coarse
>> >> > > pitch (pitch
>> >> > > changing). These
>> >> > > numbers seem low.
>> >> > > What should they be?
>> >> > > John---
>> >> > > lwcoen at hotmail.com
>> >> > > wrote:From: ?Laurence
>> >> > > Coen?
>> >> > > ?lwcoen at hotmail.com?
>> >> > > To: ?Velocity Aircraft
>> >> > > Owners and Builders
>> >> > > list?
>> >> > > ?reflector at tvbf.org?
>> >> > > Subject: Re:
>> >> > > REFLECTOR: IVO motor
>> >> > > Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009
>> >> > > 18:13:38 -0500
>> >> > > John, No you can?t.
>> >> > > The crush plates, lead
>> >> > > screw and cam bobbin
>> >> > > all need to be
>> >> > > returned for repair.
>> >> > > The blades do not have
>> >> > > to be shipped.Larry
>> >> > > CoenN136LC
>> >> > >
>> >> > > F
>> >> > > om:aminetech at bluefrog.comSent:
>> >> > > Saturday, June 20,
>> >> > > 2009 5:31 PMTo:
>> >> > > Velocity Aircraft
>> >> > > Owners and Builders
>> >> > > listSubject: Re:
>> >> > > REFLECTOR: IVO motor
>> >> > > I?ll try to check the
>> >> > > current. Can the
>> >> > > motor be removed
>> >> > > without removing the
>> >> > > blades?---
>> >> > > lwcoen at hotmail.com
>> >> > > wrote:From: ?Laurence
>> >> > > Coen?
>> >> > > ?lwcoen at hotmail.com?
>> >> > > To: ?Velocity Aircraft
>> >> > > Owners and Builders
>> >> > > list?
>> >> > > ?reflector at tvbf.org?
>> >> > > Subject: Re:
>> >> > > REFLECTOR: IVO motor
>> >> > > Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009
>> >> > > 13:06:48 -0500
>> >> > > John, I had the same
>> >> > > thing happen to me.
>> >> > > In my case the motor
>> >> > > was taking excessive
>> >> > > current. When the
>> >> > > prop passes thru the
>> >> > > neutral position, the
>> >> > > motor should take
>> >> > > about 2 amps. Mine
>> >> > > was taking 20 amps and
>> >> > > would stall before
>> >> > > getting to the stops.
>> >> > > You can check this by
>> >> > > running the prop pitch
>> >> > > with the engine
>> >> > > stopped and watching
>> >> > > the ammeter. It took
>> >> > > three trips back to
>> >> > > the factory to get it
>> >> > > fixed and I?m still
>> >> > > keeping my fingers
>> >> > > crossed. I also
>> >> > > talked with Ivo
>> >> > > himself several
>> >> > > times. He is
>> >> > > currently living in
>> >> > > the middle of nowhere
>> >> > > Utah. I never liked
>> >> > > the idea of the
>> >> > > mechanical stops that
>> >> > > simply stall the motor
>> >> > > and the only way you
>> >> > > know you have reached
>> >> > > the limit is when the
>> >> > > breaker pops. The
>> >> > > current rises very
>> >> > > rapidly when you get
>> >> > > to the stop. I
>> >> > > designed a current
>> >> > > limiter circuit that
>> >> > > shuts off the motor
>> >> > > before it stalls and
>> >> > > turns on a light to
>> >> > > let you know that you
>> >> > > are at the limit. It
>> >> > > seems to be working
>> >> > > well. Larry CoenN136LC
>> >> > >
>> >> > > F
>> >> > > om:aminetech at bluefrog.comSent:
>> >> > > Saturday, June 20,
>> >> > > 2009 8:56 AMTo:
>> >> > > Velocity Aircraft
>> >> > > Owners and Builders
>> >> > > listSubject:
>> >> > > REFLECTOR: IVO motor
>> >> > > After a few hours in
>> >> > > the TN summer heat, my
>> >> > > engine was back
>> >> > > together and running
>> >> > > well again. I made it
>> >> > > to NY the same day in
>> >> > > spite of T/S
>> >> > > approaching from the
>> >> > > west. My skills at
>> >> > > negotiating around
>> >> > > weather are improving,
>> >> > > I just don?t like this
>> >> > > learning
>> >> > > process...Anyway, on
>> >> > > to the next to do. I
>> >> > > am unable to adjust my
>> >> > > IVO pitch to either
>> >> > > full extreme. Is
>> >> > > there a way I can
>> >> > > check the voltage at
>> >> > > the motor to see it
>> >> > > it?s a poor
>> >> > > connection, or the
>> >> > > motor itself? John
>> >> > > -----------------------
>> >> > >
>> >> > > _____________
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>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Mike W.
>> >> > > 1997 Velocity Elite RG
>> >> > > Franklin /IVO Electric CS
>> >> > > Dual GRT EFIS Synthetic
>> >> > > Vision_______________________________________________
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>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Mike W.
>> >> > > 1997 Velocity Elite RG
>> >> > > Franklin /IVO Electric CS
>> >> > > Dual GRT EFIS Synthetic Vision
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --------------------------------------
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>> >> > --
>> >> > Mike W.
>> >> > 1997 Velocity Elite RG
>> >> > Franklin /IVO Electric CS
>> >> > Dual GRT EFIS Synthetic Vision
>> >> >
>> >> > -------------------------------------------------
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>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Mike W.
>> >> 1997 Velocity Elite RG
>> >> Franklin /IVO Electric CS
>> >> Dual GRT EFIS Synthetic Vision
>> >>
>> >> -----------------------------------------------------------
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>> >> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.12.45/2141 - Release Date:
>> >> 5/29/2009 6:28 AM
>> >>
>> >>
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>> > 5/29/2009 6:28 AM
>> >
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>>
>>
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