REFLECTOR: Static RPM
Scott Derrick
scott at tnstaafl.net
Fri Aug 21 08:29:01 CDT 2009
OH... this is a controllable pitch propeller??
The high number was a bit confusing because I assumed it was fixed pitch.
Now I understand the low TO distance...
Scott
Jerry Teitsma wrote:
>
> To answer Scott Derrick's question, my plane is a standard Elite FG
> Long Wing. No, clearly not gross. Performance mentioned is flying
> solo, half fuel, and no paint or upholstery. Ivo prop seems to work
> well with the Franklin. I have to bump the pitch up just prior to
> lift off to prevent over-revving. JT
>
> Jerry Teitsma, RRC, RRO, CCCA
> RCI, Inc
> PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446 (USPS mail/shipping)
> 36 Lodgepole Ct, Granby CO 80446 (UPS/FedEx shipping)
> 970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax)
> jerryteits at comcast.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
> To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:20 PM
> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 59
>
>
>> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
>> reflector at tvbf.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> reflector-request at tvbf.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> reflector-owner at tvbf.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Static RPM (Scott Derrick)
>> 2. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question (Terry Miles)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:11:06 -0600
>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <4A8C6A6A.2030100 at tnstaafl.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Wow! 8200 ft huh? Thats up there.
>>
>> Is that Franklin on a Std Velocity?
>>
>> 2200 ft is a great take off distance for that altitude! Thats not gross
>> is it?
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> Jerry Teitsma wrote:
>>> I fly out of Granby - Field elevation 8200 and change. I have a
>>> Franklin engine with an IVO Prop (FG). I can only get about 2400 RPM
>>> on static run up. It takes about 2200 ft for TO and about 2500 ft. on
>>> landing. density altitude is typically 9-10,000 ft. unless it is a
>>> nice cold morning. I always lean as others have indicated. At 10,000
>>> ft, I lean again. Hope this helps. JT
>>>
>>> Jerry Teitsma
>>> PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446
>>> 970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax)
>>> jerryteits at comcast.net
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
>>> To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:22 AM
>>> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
>>>
>>>
>>>> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
>>>> reflector at tvbf.org
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> reflector-request at tvbf.org
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> reflector-owner at tvbf.org
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: Static RPM Question (Al Gietzen)
>>>> 2. Re: Static RPM Question ( Brett Ferrell )
>>>> 3. Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM Question
>>>> (Scott Derrick)
>>>> 4. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question (Terry Miles)
>>>> 5. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question (Chuck Jensen)
>>>> 6. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question (Scott Derrick)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:14:31 -0800
>>>> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
>>>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>>>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <DBD7CB9524E643669503E1D6B2AC7B7A at BigAl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I was aware of the effect on HP. I was wondering if the
>>>> decreased
>>>> air density made spinning the prop easier and if it would compensate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> Yes; the prop also spins easier; but the power decrease is directly
>>>> proportional to the density; whereas the prop drag goes as the cube
>>>> root; or
>>>> some such; so the power loss wins.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Al
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20090818/64ba3861/attachment-0001.htm>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:34:32 -0500
>>>> From: " Brett Ferrell " <reflector at velocityxl.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
>>>> To: "reflector" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <20090818213432.15211.qmail at s214.sureserver.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> As a reminder, the Koch (and crosswind charts) are available on the
>>>> wiki
>>>>
>>>> http://wiki.velocityxl.com/index.php?title=Articles#Other
>>>>
>>>> Brett
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:05:23 -0600
>>>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <4A8B25A3.5050905 at tnstaafl.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>>> probably would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>>
>>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!"
>>>> but he
>>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>>
>>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>>> above 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so
>>>> high
>>>> you can't hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because
>>>> the engine is making way less than 75% power.
>>>>
>>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>>>> richen to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once
>>>> your 500-1000 above ground level you can richen the mixture some to
>>>> get
>>>> some cooling if you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your
>>>> cooling that way!
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>>
>>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a
>>>>> BIG
>>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to
>>>>> the
>>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> Name: signature.asc
>>>> Type: application/pgp-signature
>>>> Size: 260 bytes
>>>> Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20090818/3ef4c06d/attachment-0001.pgp>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:34:41 -0500
>>>> From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>>>> RPM Question
>>>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>>>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <BAY141-DS7AF763F38548B7FADEB80F2FE0 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>>> me. I am
>>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>>>> nice a
>>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then
>>>> enrich
>>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>>> Temps
>>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>>>> If I
>>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>>> the KLMO
>>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they
>>>> get is
>>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>>> big wind
>>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>>> get in
>>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>>> runway up
>>>> again.
>>>>
>>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>>> of thumb
>>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>>> temp is
>>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting
>>>> on the
>>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>>> engine
>>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>>> personal
>>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>>> 3000, what
>>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>>>> 6500
>>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>>
>>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have
>>>> some
>>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>>> really
>>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question
>>>>
>>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>>> probably
>>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>>
>>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!"
>>>> but he
>>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>>
>>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>>> above
>>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>>> you can't
>>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>>> engine is
>>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>>
>>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>>>> richen
>>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>>> 500-1000
>>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>>> cooling if
>>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>>
>>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a
>>>>> BIG
>>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to
>>>>> the
>>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:23:15 -0400
>>>> From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen at dts9000.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>>>> RPM Question
>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B30104A295 at lucky.dts.local>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> Terry,
>>>>
>>>> Three weeks ago, I flew into CO into JeffCo, aka, Jefferson County,
>>>> aka Rocky Mountain Regional, aka Metropolitan, aka BJC. After a
>>>> 'wild ride' through the mid afternoon wind and turbulence dropping
>>>> down off the mountains and nearby thunderstorms and virga, I was
>>>> relieved to pull off the taxiway onto the ramp to head to the FBO.
>>>> As I reduced rpm, the engine started running real rough so I kicked
>>>> on the booster pump (SOP on the flat land to add pressure to the fuel
>>>> to overcome the tendency to vaporize the fuel because of heat in the
>>>> overhead injection lines) on the IO-540, which promptly killed the
>>>> engine. I then remembered where I was at and the high 90F temps. I
>>>> restarted the hot engine (thanks to Odyssey and B&C) by pulling the
>>>> mixture off until the engine caught and then ran with the mixture
>>>> partially leaned for satisfactory ops.
>>>>
>>>> I was number three for Jeffco after a wild ride through the
>>>> turbulence east of DEN. The turbulence seem to abate a little as I
>>>> sat up for a right base, though another TS show was crossing the far
>>>> end of the field. Both the Cessna and Cirrus ahead of me report
>>>> smooth air for landing. Did I mention, things can change real quick?
>>>>
>>>> After making an adequate landing (considering everything) and
>>>> advising the tower that they could cancel the 'smooth air' advisory,
>>>> I taxied to the ramp where a lineman signaled me into place (after
>>>> the restart, right in front of the tower, mentioned above). I cut
>>>> the engine and reach around to gather up some stuff---when I looked
>>>> up, I was starting to move across the ramp. The wind was blowing
>>>> like Hades out of the NW. We got things tied down and the lineman
>>>> gave me a ride to the FBO. He said this was common for mid afternoon
>>>> as the TS develop, even though it was just spotty cells, and the wind
>>>> comes down off the mountain, then toward late afternoon/evening, it
>>>> dies back down again. A King Air landed right after me and the pilot
>>>> came into the office and remarked, 'well, that was certainly fun'.
>>>>
>>>> Since I wanted to fly from DEN to Knoxville, TN in a single leg, I
>>>> topped off both tanks, but I was alone. From the postings on here by
>>>> Kurt, Scott and other 'high flyers', I remembered to calibrate my
>>>> mixture during run up to account for the density altitude, which was
>>>> something in the double digits. It's kinda spooky to take off and
>>>> look down a couple minutes later and realize a person is already
>>>> above 7000'. The high density is when I fully appreciate the 300HP
>>>> version of the 540. It really wasn't doggy, but it certainly didn't
>>>> climb like an F-15 on departure either. On landing, I really didn't
>>>> notice any difference because I was light and headed into a 'brisk'
>>>> headwind, so landing distance was meaningless.
>>>>
>>>> Terry, I would think (but don't know) that the 4800 foot of runway
>>>> should be ample, especially if the temp isn't into the 90s, though
>>>> just to be sure, it might be okay to have the passengers leave their
>>>> steamer trunks behind and not top both sides off. Happy flying and
>>>> make sure you have all of the current DEN plates, particularly the
>>>> departure procedures. If you depart VFR, there's obvious some
>>>> interesting vectoring if you are crossing the DEN airport area.
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Jensen
>>>>
>>>> Diversified Technologies
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Chuck Jensen
>>>>
>>>> Diversified Technologies
>>>> 2680 Westcott Blvd
>>>> Knoxville, TN 37931
>>>> Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
>>>> Cell: 865-406-9001
>>>> Fax: 865-539-9001
>>>> cjensen at dts9000.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>>> Behalf Of Terry Miles
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:35 PM
>>>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports;was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>>> me. I am
>>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>>>> nice a
>>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then
>>>> enrich
>>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>>> Temps
>>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>>>> If I
>>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>>> the KLMO
>>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they
>>>> get is
>>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>>> big wind
>>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>>> get in
>>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>>> runway up
>>>> again.
>>>>
>>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>>> of thumb
>>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>>> temp is
>>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting
>>>> on the
>>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>>> engine
>>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>>> personal
>>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>>> 3000, what
>>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>>>> 6500
>>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>>
>>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have
>>>> some
>>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>>> really
>>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question
>>>>
>>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>>> probably
>>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>>
>>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!"
>>>> but he
>>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>>
>>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>>> above
>>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>>> you can't
>>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>>> engine is
>>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>>
>>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>>>> richen
>>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>>> 500-1000
>>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>>> cooling if
>>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>>
>>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a
>>>>> BIG
>>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to
>>>>> the
>>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> To change your email address, visit
>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>
>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>> Check old archives:
>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:22:49 -0600
>>>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>>>> RPM Question
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Message-ID: <4A8C0AB9.2030404 at tnstaafl.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>
>>>> Terry,
>>>>
>>>> Its really good your are thinking ahead on this.
>>>>
>>>> My experience with the V at hot & high airports is that I can
>>>> easily get
>>>> in to a field that is too short to get out of. Unless its really
>>>> short
>>>> I'm not to worried about landing length. That assumes you are
>>>> comfortable with an over the fence speed of 85-80 knots(or less). If
>>>> faster, all bets are off. Landing the V is all about energy
>>>> management,
>>>> and speed is energy, too much and you will float forever..
>>>>
>>>> You have a perfect place to practice at APA, higher elevation, and
>>>> longer runway. If you passengers are OK about it, do a couple
>>>> takeoffs
>>>> and landings there and see how much you use landing and departing?
>>>> Since its 1,000 higher you should use a bit less at LMO, and it should
>>>> give you the confidence you need.
>>>>
>>>> One of the items we are all aware of in the mountain west is fuel
>>>> load.
>>>> Its an easy way to adjust your take off weight. As a rule don't carry
>>>> any extra. I'm not talking about no minimum, always have 45-60
>>>> minutes
>>>> of extra fuel, but don't just fill up. An extra 20-30 gallons of
>>>> fuel
>>>> can make a huge difference in take off distance.
>>>>
>>>> Also since you going to be at the show through the hot part of the
>>>> day,
>>>> plan on a late departure. The temps will be comin down after 3-4, and
>>>> the generally the winds do to. Plan on a 5pm departure, and let
>>>> those
>>>> temps come down in your favor. You'll have daylight until 7-8 so there
>>>> is no hurry.
>>>>
>>>> The winds out here can be gusty, but they also are variable. It
>>>> can be
>>>> calm, then blowing 20-30 knots for 10-20 minutes, then calm again.
>>>> Wait
>>>> for a calm to depart in unless it is a fairly steady breeze down the
>>>> runway.
>>>>
>>>> Plan on a sluggish climb, plan your path from the airport to avoid the
>>>> need for an aggressive climb. If unfamiliar with the airport, and
>>>> its
>>>> mountainous plan a climb in the pattern so you can get the lay of the
>>>> land while safely gaining altitude.
>>>>
>>>> Its not that difficult to fly the mountains if you keep a few items
>>>> in mind.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> PS, If you haven't read Imeson's book, Mountain Flying, get it now.
>>>> http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Terry Miles wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>>>> me. I am
>>>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway
>>>>> is nice a
>>>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then
>>>>> enrich
>>>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO
>>>>> which a
>>>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>>>> Temps
>>>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe
>>>>> 7000. If I
>>>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>>>> the KLMO
>>>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have
>>>>> been
>>>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they
>>>>> get is
>>>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>>>> big wind
>>>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>>>> get in
>>>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>>>> runway up
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>>>> of thumb
>>>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>>>> temp is
>>>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on
>>>>> the
>>>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>>>> engine
>>>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>>>> personal
>>>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>>>> 3000, what
>>>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more
>>>>> like 6500
>>>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>>>
>>>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have
>>>>> some
>>>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>>>> really
>>>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Terry
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>>>>> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>>> Question
>>>>>
>>>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high
>>>>> density
>>>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>>>> probably
>>>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!"
>>>>> but he
>>>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>>>
>>>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>>>> above
>>>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>>>> you can't
>>>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>>>> engine is
>>>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM,
>>>>> then richen
>>>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>>>> 500-1000
>>>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>>>> cooling if
>>>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>>
>>>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean
>>>>>> a BIG
>>>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that
>>>>>> takeoff
>>>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> To change your email address, visit
>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>>> Check old archives:
>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> Name: signature.asc
>>>> Type: application/pgp-signature
>>>> Size: 260 bytes
>>>> Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20090819/c3baac89/attachment.pgp>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>>
>>>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
>>>> *****************************************
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To change your email address, visit
>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>
>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> Name: signature.asc
>> Type: application/pgp-signature
>> Size: 260 bytes
>> Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
>> URL:
>> <http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20090819/bf01ac99/attachment-0001.pgp>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:19:07 -0500
>> From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>> RPM Question
>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <BAY141-DS33BC1D649100233DE88CDF2FD0 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Scott,
>> Chuck,
>> Thanks to you both. Some great ideas there to consider, about lessor
>> fuel
>> loads, and no cabin bags, and hanging around until after 5 pm. I
>> have to
>> admit that I fly final in the mid to low 90's. I stall at 70 knots,
>> so I
>> could pull back a couple of knots. I know it is velocity squared for
>> the
>> energy formula. And I plan on a touch down in the first 500 feet as a
>> must
>> do. Chuck's ride sound about right from watching sequence reports
>> for about
>> 2 weeks now. Here is a good website I found for keeping an eye on
>> forecast
>> fld conditions with pic-to-gram ease.
>> http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/launch/code.cgi?Submit=Go&sta=KMDT&state=PA
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Terry
>> I'll report back.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 09:23
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>> Terry,
>>
>> Three weeks ago, I flew into CO into JeffCo, aka, Jefferson County, aka
>> Rocky Mountain Regional, aka Metropolitan, aka BJC. After a 'wild ride'
>> through the mid afternoon wind and turbulence dropping down off the
>> mountains and nearby thunderstorms and virga, I was relieved to pull
>> off the
>> taxiway onto the ramp to head to the FBO. As I reduced rpm, the engine
>> started running real rough so I kicked on the booster pump (SOP on
>> the flat
>> land to add pressure to the fuel to overcome the tendency to vaporize
>> the
>> fuel because of heat in the overhead injection lines) on the IO-540,
>> which
>> promptly killed the engine. I then remembered where I was at and the
>> high
>> 90F temps. I restarted the hot engine (thanks to Odyssey and B&C) by
>> pulling the mixture off until the engine caught and then ran with the
>> mixture partially leaned for satisfactory ops.
>>
>> I was number three for Jeffco after a wild ride through the
>> turbulence east
>> of DEN. The turbulence seem to abate a little as I sat up for a
>> right base,
>> though another TS show was crossing the far end of the field. Both the
>> Cessna and Cirrus ahead of me report smooth air for landing. Did I
>> mention,
>> things can change real quick?
>>
>> After making an adequate landing (considering everything) and
>> advising the
>> tower that they could cancel the 'smooth air' advisory, I taxied to
>> the ramp
>> where a lineman signaled me into place (after the restart, right in
>> front of
>> the tower, mentioned above). I cut the engine and reach around to
>> gather up
>> some stuff---when I looked up, I was starting to move across the
>> ramp. The
>> wind was blowing like Hades out of the NW. We got things tied down
>> and the
>> lineman gave me a ride to the FBO. He said this was common for mid
>> afternoon as the TS develop, even though it was just spotty cells,
>> and the
>> wind comes down off the mountain, then toward late afternoon/evening, it
>> dies back down again. A King Air landed right after me and the pilot
>> came
>> into the office and remarked, 'well, that was certainly fun'.
>>
>> Since I wanted to fly from DEN to Knoxville, TN in a single leg, I
>> topped
>> off both tanks, but I was alone. From the postings on here by Kurt,
>> Scott
>> and other 'high flyers', I remembered to calibrate my mixture during
>> run up
>> to account for the density altitude, which was something in the double
>> digits. It's kinda spooky to take off and look down a couple minutes
>> later
>> and realize a person is already above 7000'. The high density is when I
>> fully appreciate the 300HP version of the 540. It really wasn't
>> doggy, but
>> it certainly didn't climb like an F-15 on departure either. On
>> landing, I
>> really didn't notice any difference because I was light and headed
>> into a
>> 'brisk' headwind, so landing distance was meaningless.
>>
>> Terry, I would think (but don't know) that the 4800 foot of runway
>> should be
>> ample, especially if the temp isn't into the 90s, though just to be
>> sure, it
>> might be okay to have the passengers leave their steamer trunks
>> behind and
>> not top both sides off. Happy flying and make sure you have all of the
>> current DEN plates, particularly the departure procedures. If you
>> depart
>> VFR, there's obvious some interesting vectoring if you are crossing
>> the DEN
>> airport area.
>>
>> Chuck Jensen
>>
>> Diversified Technologies
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chuck Jensen
>>
>> Diversified Technologies
>> 2680 Westcott Blvd
>> Knoxville, TN 37931
>> Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
>> Cell: 865-406-9001
>> Fax: 865-539-9001
>> cjensen at dts9000.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>> Behalf Of Terry Miles
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:35 PM
>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports;was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>> me. I am
>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>> nice a
>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>
>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>> Temps
>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>> If I
>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>> the KLMO
>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>> big wind
>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>> get in
>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>> runway up
>> again.
>>
>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>> of thumb
>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>> temp is
>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>> engine
>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>> personal
>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>> 3000, what
>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>> 6500
>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>
>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>> really
>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>> probably
>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>
>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>
>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>> above
>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>> you can't
>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>> engine is
>> making way less than 75% power.
>>
>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>> richen
>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>> 500-1000
>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>> cooling if
>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>
>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>
>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 59
>> *****************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 260 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20090821/0a472218/attachment-0001.pgp>
More information about the Reflector
mailing list