REFLECTOR: Static RPM
Jerry Teitsma
jerryteits at comcast.net
Thu Aug 20 22:36:13 CDT 2009
To answer Scott Derrick's question, my plane is a standard Elite FG Long
Wing. No, clearly not gross. Performance mentioned is flying solo, half
fuel, and no paint or upholstery. Ivo prop seems to work well with the
Franklin. I have to bump the pitch up just prior to lift off to prevent
over-revving. JT
Jerry Teitsma, RRC, RRO, CCCA
RCI, Inc
PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446 (USPS mail/shipping)
36 Lodgepole Ct, Granby CO 80446 (UPS/FedEx shipping)
970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax)
jerryteits at comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:20 PM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 59
> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Static RPM (Scott Derrick)
> 2. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question (Terry Miles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:11:06 -0600
> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <4A8C6A6A.2030100 at tnstaafl.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Wow! 8200 ft huh? Thats up there.
>
> Is that Franklin on a Std Velocity?
>
> 2200 ft is a great take off distance for that altitude! Thats not gross
> is it?
>
> Scott
>
> Jerry Teitsma wrote:
>> I fly out of Granby - Field elevation 8200 and change. I have a
>> Franklin engine with an IVO Prop (FG). I can only get about 2400 RPM
>> on static run up. It takes about 2200 ft for TO and about 2500 ft. on
>> landing. density altitude is typically 9-10,000 ft. unless it is a
>> nice cold morning. I always lean as others have indicated. At 10,000
>> ft, I lean again. Hope this helps. JT
>>
>> Jerry Teitsma
>> PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446
>> 970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax)
>> jerryteits at comcast.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
>> To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:22 AM
>> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
>>
>>
>>> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
>>> reflector at tvbf.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> reflector-request at tvbf.org
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>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Static RPM Question (Al Gietzen)
>>> 2. Re: Static RPM Question ( Brett Ferrell )
>>> 3. Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM Question
>>> (Scott Derrick)
>>> 4. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question (Terry Miles)
>>> 5. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question (Chuck Jensen)
>>> 6. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question (Scott Derrick)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:14:31 -0800
>>> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
>>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Message-ID: <DBD7CB9524E643669503E1D6B2AC7B7A at BigAl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. I was aware of the effect on HP. I was wondering if the
>>> decreased
>>> air density made spinning the prop easier and if it would compensate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> Yes; the prop also spins easier; but the power decrease is directly
>>> proportional to the density; whereas the prop drag goes as the cube
>>> root; or
>>> some such; so the power loss wins.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Al
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:34:32 -0500
>>> From: " Brett Ferrell " <reflector at velocityxl.com>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
>>> To: "reflector" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Message-ID: <20090818213432.15211.qmail at s214.sureserver.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> As a reminder, the Koch (and crosswind charts) are available on the wiki
>>>
>>> http://wiki.velocityxl.com/index.php?title=Articles#Other
>>>
>>> Brett
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:05:23 -0600
>>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Message-ID: <4A8B25A3.5050905 at tnstaafl.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>> probably would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>
>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>
>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>> above 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>> you can't hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because
>>> the engine is making way less than 75% power.
>>>
>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>>> richen to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once
>>> your 500-1000 above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get
>>> some cooling if you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your
>>> cooling that way!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>
>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Kurt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:34:41 -0500
>>> From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>>> RPM Question
>>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Message-ID: <BAY141-DS7AF763F38548B7FADEB80F2FE0 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>> me. I am
>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>>> nice a
>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>
>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>> Temps
>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>>> If I
>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>> the KLMO
>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>> big wind
>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>> get in
>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>> runway up
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>> of thumb
>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>> temp is
>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>> engine
>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>> personal
>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>> 3000, what
>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>>> 6500
>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>
>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>> really
>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question
>>>
>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>> probably
>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>
>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>
>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>> above
>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>> you can't
>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>> engine is
>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>
>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>>> richen
>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>> 500-1000
>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>> cooling if
>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>
>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Kurt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:23:15 -0400
>>> From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen at dts9000.com>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>>> RPM Question
>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B30104A295 at lucky.dts.local>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Terry,
>>>
>>> Three weeks ago, I flew into CO into JeffCo, aka, Jefferson County,
>>> aka Rocky Mountain Regional, aka Metropolitan, aka BJC. After a
>>> 'wild ride' through the mid afternoon wind and turbulence dropping
>>> down off the mountains and nearby thunderstorms and virga, I was
>>> relieved to pull off the taxiway onto the ramp to head to the FBO.
>>> As I reduced rpm, the engine started running real rough so I kicked
>>> on the booster pump (SOP on the flat land to add pressure to the fuel
>>> to overcome the tendency to vaporize the fuel because of heat in the
>>> overhead injection lines) on the IO-540, which promptly killed the
>>> engine. I then remembered where I was at and the high 90F temps. I
>>> restarted the hot engine (thanks to Odyssey and B&C) by pulling the
>>> mixture off until the engine caught and then ran with the mixture
>>> partially leaned for satisfactory ops.
>>>
>>> I was number three for Jeffco after a wild ride through the
>>> turbulence east of DEN. The turbulence seem to abate a little as I
>>> sat up for a right base, though another TS show was crossing the far
>>> end of the field. Both the Cessna and Cirrus ahead of me report
>>> smooth air for landing. Did I mention, things can change real quick?
>>>
>>> After making an adequate landing (considering everything) and
>>> advising the tower that they could cancel the 'smooth air' advisory,
>>> I taxied to the ramp where a lineman signaled me into place (after
>>> the restart, right in front of the tower, mentioned above). I cut
>>> the engine and reach around to gather up some stuff---when I looked
>>> up, I was starting to move across the ramp. The wind was blowing
>>> like Hades out of the NW. We got things tied down and the lineman
>>> gave me a ride to the FBO. He said this was common for mid afternoon
>>> as the TS develop, even though it was just spotty cells, and the wind
>>> comes down off the mountain, then toward late afternoon/evening, it
>>> dies back down again. A King Air landed right after me and the pilot
>>> came into the office and remarked, 'well, that was certainly fun'.
>>>
>>> Since I wanted to fly from DEN to Knoxville, TN in a single leg, I
>>> topped off both tanks, but I was alone. From the postings on here by
>>> Kurt, Scott and other 'high flyers', I remembered to calibrate my
>>> mixture during run up to account for the density altitude, which was
>>> something in the double digits. It's kinda spooky to take off and
>>> look down a couple minutes later and realize a person is already
>>> above 7000'. The high density is when I fully appreciate the 300HP
>>> version of the 540. It really wasn't doggy, but it certainly didn't
>>> climb like an F-15 on departure either. On landing, I really didn't
>>> notice any difference because I was light and headed into a 'brisk'
>>> headwind, so landing distance was meaningless.
>>>
>>> Terry, I would think (but don't know) that the 4800 foot of runway
>>> should be ample, especially if the temp isn't into the 90s, though
>>> just to be sure, it might be okay to have the passengers leave their
>>> steamer trunks behind and not top both sides off. Happy flying and
>>> make sure you have all of the current DEN plates, particularly the
>>> departure procedures. If you depart VFR, there's obvious some
>>> interesting vectoring if you are crossing the DEN airport area.
>>>
>>> Chuck Jensen
>>>
>>> Diversified Technologies
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chuck Jensen
>>>
>>> Diversified Technologies
>>> 2680 Westcott Blvd
>>> Knoxville, TN 37931
>>> Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
>>> Cell: 865-406-9001
>>> Fax: 865-539-9001
>>> cjensen at dts9000.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>>> Behalf Of Terry Miles
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:35 PM
>>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports;was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>> me. I am
>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>>> nice a
>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>
>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>> Temps
>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>>> If I
>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>> the KLMO
>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>> big wind
>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>> get in
>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>> runway up
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>> of thumb
>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>> temp is
>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>> engine
>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>> personal
>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>> 3000, what
>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>>> 6500
>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>
>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>> really
>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question
>>>
>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>> probably
>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>
>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>
>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>> above
>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>> you can't
>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>> engine is
>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>
>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>>> richen
>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>> 500-1000
>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>> cooling if
>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>
>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Kurt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:22:49 -0600
>>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>>> RPM Question
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Message-ID: <4A8C0AB9.2030404 at tnstaafl.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Terry,
>>>
>>> Its really good your are thinking ahead on this.
>>>
>>> My experience with the V at hot & high airports is that I can easily get
>>> in to a field that is too short to get out of. Unless its really short
>>> I'm not to worried about landing length. That assumes you are
>>> comfortable with an over the fence speed of 85-80 knots(or less). If
>>> faster, all bets are off. Landing the V is all about energy management,
>>> and speed is energy, too much and you will float forever..
>>>
>>> You have a perfect place to practice at APA, higher elevation, and
>>> longer runway. If you passengers are OK about it, do a couple takeoffs
>>> and landings there and see how much you use landing and departing?
>>> Since its 1,000 higher you should use a bit less at LMO, and it should
>>> give you the confidence you need.
>>>
>>> One of the items we are all aware of in the mountain west is fuel load.
>>> Its an easy way to adjust your take off weight. As a rule don't carry
>>> any extra. I'm not talking about no minimum, always have 45-60 minutes
>>> of extra fuel, but don't just fill up. An extra 20-30 gallons of fuel
>>> can make a huge difference in take off distance.
>>>
>>> Also since you going to be at the show through the hot part of the day,
>>> plan on a late departure. The temps will be comin down after 3-4, and
>>> the generally the winds do to. Plan on a 5pm departure, and let those
>>> temps come down in your favor. You'll have daylight until 7-8 so there
>>> is no hurry.
>>>
>>> The winds out here can be gusty, but they also are variable. It can be
>>> calm, then blowing 20-30 knots for 10-20 minutes, then calm again. Wait
>>> for a calm to depart in unless it is a fairly steady breeze down the
>>> runway.
>>>
>>> Plan on a sluggish climb, plan your path from the airport to avoid the
>>> need for an aggressive climb. If unfamiliar with the airport, and its
>>> mountainous plan a climb in the pattern so you can get the lay of the
>>> land while safely gaining altitude.
>>>
>>> Its not that difficult to fly the mountains if you keep a few items
>>> in mind.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> PS, If you haven't read Imeson's book, Mountain Flying, get it now.
>>> http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry Miles wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>>> me. I am
>>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway
>>>> is nice a
>>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then
>>>> enrich
>>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>>> Temps
>>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe
>>>> 7000. If I
>>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>>> the KLMO
>>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they
>>>> get is
>>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>>> big wind
>>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>>> get in
>>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>>> runway up
>>>> again.
>>>>
>>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>>> of thumb
>>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>>> temp is
>>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on
>>>> the
>>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>>> engine
>>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>>> personal
>>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>>> 3000, what
>>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more
>>>> like 6500
>>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>>
>>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have
>>>> some
>>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>>> really
>>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Terry
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>>> Question
>>>>
>>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>>> probably
>>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>>
>>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!"
>>>> but he
>>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>>
>>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>>> above
>>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>>> you can't
>>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>>> engine is
>>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>>
>>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM,
>>>> then richen
>>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>>> 500-1000
>>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>>> cooling if
>>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>>
>>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> To change your email address, visit
>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>>
>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
>>> *****************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:19:07 -0500
> From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
> RPM Question
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY141-DS33BC1D649100233DE88CDF2FD0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Scott,
> Chuck,
> Thanks to you both. Some great ideas there to consider, about lessor fuel
> loads, and no cabin bags, and hanging around until after 5 pm. I have to
> admit that I fly final in the mid to low 90's. I stall at 70 knots, so I
> could pull back a couple of knots. I know it is velocity squared for the
> energy formula. And I plan on a touch down in the first 500 feet as a must
> do. Chuck's ride sound about right from watching sequence reports for
> about
> 2 weeks now. Here is a good website I found for keeping an eye on
> forecast
> fld conditions with pic-to-gram ease.
> http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/launch/code.cgi?Submit=Go&sta=KMDT&state=PA
> Thanks again,
> Terry
> I'll report back.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 09:23
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question
>
> Terry,
>
> Three weeks ago, I flew into CO into JeffCo, aka, Jefferson County, aka
> Rocky Mountain Regional, aka Metropolitan, aka BJC. After a 'wild ride'
> through the mid afternoon wind and turbulence dropping down off the
> mountains and nearby thunderstorms and virga, I was relieved to pull off
> the
> taxiway onto the ramp to head to the FBO. As I reduced rpm, the engine
> started running real rough so I kicked on the booster pump (SOP on the
> flat
> land to add pressure to the fuel to overcome the tendency to vaporize the
> fuel because of heat in the overhead injection lines) on the IO-540, which
> promptly killed the engine. I then remembered where I was at and the high
> 90F temps. I restarted the hot engine (thanks to Odyssey and B&C) by
> pulling the mixture off until the engine caught and then ran with the
> mixture partially leaned for satisfactory ops.
>
> I was number three for Jeffco after a wild ride through the turbulence
> east
> of DEN. The turbulence seem to abate a little as I sat up for a right
> base,
> though another TS show was crossing the far end of the field. Both the
> Cessna and Cirrus ahead of me report smooth air for landing. Did I
> mention,
> things can change real quick?
>
> After making an adequate landing (considering everything) and advising the
> tower that they could cancel the 'smooth air' advisory, I taxied to the
> ramp
> where a lineman signaled me into place (after the restart, right in front
> of
> the tower, mentioned above). I cut the engine and reach around to gather
> up
> some stuff---when I looked up, I was starting to move across the ramp.
> The
> wind was blowing like Hades out of the NW. We got things tied down and
> the
> lineman gave me a ride to the FBO. He said this was common for mid
> afternoon as the TS develop, even though it was just spotty cells, and the
> wind comes down off the mountain, then toward late afternoon/evening, it
> dies back down again. A King Air landed right after me and the pilot came
> into the office and remarked, 'well, that was certainly fun'.
>
> Since I wanted to fly from DEN to Knoxville, TN in a single leg, I topped
> off both tanks, but I was alone. From the postings on here by Kurt, Scott
> and other 'high flyers', I remembered to calibrate my mixture during run
> up
> to account for the density altitude, which was something in the double
> digits. It's kinda spooky to take off and look down a couple minutes
> later
> and realize a person is already above 7000'. The high density is when I
> fully appreciate the 300HP version of the 540. It really wasn't doggy,
> but
> it certainly didn't climb like an F-15 on departure either. On landing, I
> really didn't notice any difference because I was light and headed into a
> 'brisk' headwind, so landing distance was meaningless.
>
> Terry, I would think (but don't know) that the 4800 foot of runway should
> be
> ample, especially if the temp isn't into the 90s, though just to be sure,
> it
> might be okay to have the passengers leave their steamer trunks behind and
> not top both sides off. Happy flying and make sure you have all of the
> current DEN plates, particularly the departure procedures. If you depart
> VFR, there's obvious some interesting vectoring if you are crossing the
> DEN
> airport area.
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
> Diversified Technologies
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Jensen
>
> Diversified Technologies
> 2680 Westcott Blvd
> Knoxville, TN 37931
> Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
> Cell: 865-406-9001
> Fax: 865-539-9001
> cjensen at dts9000.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Terry Miles
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:35 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports;was Re: Static RPM
> Question
>
>
> Dear all,
> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for me. I
> am
> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is nice
> a
> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
> back to +100 or so cooler.
>
> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
> Temps
> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000. If I
> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then the
> KLMO
> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for big
> wind
> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to get in
> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the runway
> up
> again.
>
> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule of
> thumb
> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld temp is
> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the engine
> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
> personal
> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is 3000,
> what
> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like 6500
> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>
> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
> really
> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>
> Thanks
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
> Question
>
> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that probably
> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>
> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>
> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is above
> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high you
> can't
> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the engine is
> making way less than 75% power.
>
> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
> richen
> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
> 500-1000
> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some cooling if
> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>
> Scott
>
> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>
>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
>
> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 59
> *****************************************
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