REFLECTOR: Static RPM
Scott Derrick
scott at tnstaafl.net
Wed Aug 19 16:11:06 CDT 2009
Wow! 8200 ft huh? Thats up there.
Is that Franklin on a Std Velocity?
2200 ft is a great take off distance for that altitude! Thats not gross
is it?
Scott
Jerry Teitsma wrote:
> I fly out of Granby - Field elevation 8200 and change. I have a
> Franklin engine with an IVO Prop (FG). I can only get about 2400 RPM
> on static run up. It takes about 2200 ft for TO and about 2500 ft. on
> landing. density altitude is typically 9-10,000 ft. unless it is a
> nice cold morning. I always lean as others have indicated. At 10,000
> ft, I lean again. Hope this helps. JT
>
> Jerry Teitsma
> PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446
> 970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax)
> jerryteits at comcast.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
> To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:22 AM
> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
>
>
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Static RPM Question (Al Gietzen)
>> 2. Re: Static RPM Question ( Brett Ferrell )
>> 3. Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM Question
>> (Scott Derrick)
>> 4. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question (Terry Miles)
>> 5. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question (Chuck Jensen)
>> 6. Re: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question (Scott Derrick)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:14:31 -0800
>> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <DBD7CB9524E643669503E1D6B2AC7B7A at BigAl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks. I was aware of the effect on HP. I was wondering if the
>> decreased
>> air density made spinning the prop easier and if it would compensate.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>> Yes; the prop also spins easier; but the power decrease is directly
>> proportional to the density; whereas the prop drag goes as the cube
>> root; or
>> some such; so the power loss wins.
>>
>>
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:34:32 -0500
>> From: " Brett Ferrell " <reflector at velocityxl.com>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Static RPM Question
>> To: "reflector" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <20090818213432.15211.qmail at s214.sureserver.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> As a reminder, the Koch (and crosswind charts) are available on the wiki
>>
>> http://wiki.velocityxl.com/index.php?title=Articles#Other
>>
>> Brett
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:05:23 -0600
>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <4A8B25A3.5050905 at tnstaafl.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>> probably would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>
>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>
>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>> above 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>> you can't hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because
>> the engine is making way less than 75% power.
>>
>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>> richen to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once
>> your 500-1000 above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get
>> some cooling if you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your
>> cooling that way!
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>
>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:34:41 -0500
>> From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>> RPM Question
>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <BAY141-DS7AF763F38548B7FADEB80F2FE0 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear all,
>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>> me. I am
>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>> nice a
>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>
>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>> Temps
>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>> If I
>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>> the KLMO
>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>> big wind
>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>> get in
>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>> runway up
>> again.
>>
>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>> of thumb
>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>> temp is
>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>> engine
>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>> personal
>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>> 3000, what
>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>> 6500
>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>
>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>> really
>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>> probably
>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>
>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>
>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>> above
>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>> you can't
>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>> engine is
>> making way less than 75% power.
>>
>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>> richen
>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>> 500-1000
>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>> cooling if
>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>
>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:23:15 -0400
>> From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen at dts9000.com>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>> RPM Question
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B30104A295 at lucky.dts.local>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Terry,
>>
>> Three weeks ago, I flew into CO into JeffCo, aka, Jefferson County,
>> aka Rocky Mountain Regional, aka Metropolitan, aka BJC. After a
>> 'wild ride' through the mid afternoon wind and turbulence dropping
>> down off the mountains and nearby thunderstorms and virga, I was
>> relieved to pull off the taxiway onto the ramp to head to the FBO.
>> As I reduced rpm, the engine started running real rough so I kicked
>> on the booster pump (SOP on the flat land to add pressure to the fuel
>> to overcome the tendency to vaporize the fuel because of heat in the
>> overhead injection lines) on the IO-540, which promptly killed the
>> engine. I then remembered where I was at and the high 90F temps. I
>> restarted the hot engine (thanks to Odyssey and B&C) by pulling the
>> mixture off until the engine caught and then ran with the mixture
>> partially leaned for satisfactory ops.
>>
>> I was number three for Jeffco after a wild ride through the
>> turbulence east of DEN. The turbulence seem to abate a little as I
>> sat up for a right base, though another TS show was crossing the far
>> end of the field. Both the Cessna and Cirrus ahead of me report
>> smooth air for landing. Did I mention, things can change real quick?
>>
>> After making an adequate landing (considering everything) and
>> advising the tower that they could cancel the 'smooth air' advisory,
>> I taxied to the ramp where a lineman signaled me into place (after
>> the restart, right in front of the tower, mentioned above). I cut
>> the engine and reach around to gather up some stuff---when I looked
>> up, I was starting to move across the ramp. The wind was blowing
>> like Hades out of the NW. We got things tied down and the lineman
>> gave me a ride to the FBO. He said this was common for mid afternoon
>> as the TS develop, even though it was just spotty cells, and the wind
>> comes down off the mountain, then toward late afternoon/evening, it
>> dies back down again. A King Air landed right after me and the pilot
>> came into the office and remarked, 'well, that was certainly fun'.
>>
>> Since I wanted to fly from DEN to Knoxville, TN in a single leg, I
>> topped off both tanks, but I was alone. From the postings on here by
>> Kurt, Scott and other 'high flyers', I remembered to calibrate my
>> mixture during run up to account for the density altitude, which was
>> something in the double digits. It's kinda spooky to take off and
>> look down a couple minutes later and realize a person is already
>> above 7000'. The high density is when I fully appreciate the 300HP
>> version of the 540. It really wasn't doggy, but it certainly didn't
>> climb like an F-15 on departure either. On landing, I really didn't
>> notice any difference because I was light and headed into a 'brisk'
>> headwind, so landing distance was meaningless.
>>
>> Terry, I would think (but don't know) that the 4800 foot of runway
>> should be ample, especially if the temp isn't into the 90s, though
>> just to be sure, it might be okay to have the passengers leave their
>> steamer trunks behind and not top both sides off. Happy flying and
>> make sure you have all of the current DEN plates, particularly the
>> departure procedures. If you depart VFR, there's obvious some
>> interesting vectoring if you are crossing the DEN airport area.
>>
>> Chuck Jensen
>>
>> Diversified Technologies
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chuck Jensen
>>
>> Diversified Technologies
>> 2680 Westcott Blvd
>> Knoxville, TN 37931
>> Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
>> Cell: 865-406-9001
>> Fax: 865-539-9001
>> cjensen at dts9000.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>> Behalf Of Terry Miles
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 11:35 PM
>> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports;was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>> me. I am
>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway is
>> nice a
>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then enrich
>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>
>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>> Temps
>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe 7000.
>> If I
>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>> the KLMO
>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they get is
>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>> big wind
>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>> get in
>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>> runway up
>> again.
>>
>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>> of thumb
>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>> temp is
>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on the
>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>> engine
>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>> personal
>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>> 3000, what
>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more like
>> 6500
>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>
>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have some
>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>> really
>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>> Question
>>
>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>> probably
>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>
>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!" but he
>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>
>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>> above
>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>> you can't
>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>> engine is
>> making way less than 75% power.
>>
>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM, then
>> richen
>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>> 500-1000
>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>> cooling if
>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>
>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>
>>> Kurt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:22:49 -0600
>> From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static
>> RPM Question
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <4A8C0AB9.2030404 at tnstaafl.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Terry,
>>
>> Its really good your are thinking ahead on this.
>>
>> My experience with the V at hot & high airports is that I can easily get
>> in to a field that is too short to get out of. Unless its really short
>> I'm not to worried about landing length. That assumes you are
>> comfortable with an over the fence speed of 85-80 knots(or less). If
>> faster, all bets are off. Landing the V is all about energy management,
>> and speed is energy, too much and you will float forever..
>>
>> You have a perfect place to practice at APA, higher elevation, and
>> longer runway. If you passengers are OK about it, do a couple takeoffs
>> and landings there and see how much you use landing and departing?
>> Since its 1,000 higher you should use a bit less at LMO, and it should
>> give you the confidence you need.
>>
>> One of the items we are all aware of in the mountain west is fuel load.
>> Its an easy way to adjust your take off weight. As a rule don't carry
>> any extra. I'm not talking about no minimum, always have 45-60 minutes
>> of extra fuel, but don't just fill up. An extra 20-30 gallons of fuel
>> can make a huge difference in take off distance.
>>
>> Also since you going to be at the show through the hot part of the day,
>> plan on a late departure. The temps will be comin down after 3-4, and
>> the generally the winds do to. Plan on a 5pm departure, and let those
>> temps come down in your favor. You'll have daylight until 7-8 so there
>> is no hurry.
>>
>> The winds out here can be gusty, but they also are variable. It can be
>> calm, then blowing 20-30 knots for 10-20 minutes, then calm again. Wait
>> for a calm to depart in unless it is a fairly steady breeze down the
>> runway.
>>
>> Plan on a sluggish climb, plan your path from the airport to avoid the
>> need for an aggressive climb. If unfamiliar with the airport, and its
>> mountainous plan a climb in the pattern so you can get the lay of the
>> land while safely gaining altitude.
>>
>> Its not that difficult to fly the mountains if you keep a few items
>> in mind.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> PS, If you haven't read Imeson's book, Mountain Flying, get it now.
>> http://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Miles wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>> Well I want in on this thread too. It comes at a perfect time for
>>> me. I am
>>> planning a trip to APA which just S of DEN. Fld Elv 5800. Runway
>>> is nice a
>>> long so that is not an issue, and I know to lean to peak and then
>>> enrich
>>> back to +100 or so cooler.
>>>
>>> Here's the thing...While I am there, there is a fly in to KLMO which a
>>> little NW of DEN. Fld Elv is 5100 or so. Rnwy length is 4800 x 75.
>>> Temps
>>> have been running in the 70's so I will estimate a DA of maybe
>>> 7000. If I
>>> said an XL w/ 3 people had a sea level take off run of 1200', then
>>> the KLMO
>>> takeoff run is going to be just under 3000 in calm winds. I have been
>>> watching DEN metar for a week now and in the afternoon hours they
>>> get is
>>> cumulus build ups with virga reported and all hell breaks loose for
>>> big wind
>>> shifts and big gusts. There is a small airshow that day. I have to
>>> get in
>>> by 1100L and stay until at least 1530L or so before they open the
>>> runway up
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I have the 300 HP Lycoming, but my concern is coming up with a rule
>>> of thumb
>>> on landing distance. The landing runway is 29. Let's say the fld
>>> temp is
>>> 75 and the winds are 250v330 10G17 (there is no weather reporting on
>>> the
>>> fld). (Read I am getting thrown around pretty good in turb and the
>>> engine
>>> response is sluggish compared to what I am used to. If I said my
>>> personal
>>> minimum runway length for my skill level with that wind report is
>>> 3000, what
>>> should it be when DA is 7000? I am thinking it ought to be more
>>> like 6500
>>> for min runway length and 4800 is cutting close.
>>>
>>> I admit it. I am a flatlander. Do any of you mountain people have
>>> some
>>> advice. Does anybody have a rule of thumb for this? The Koch chart
>>> really
>>> only talks about tkof and climb and not approach and landing
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 17:05
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Leaning at High DA Airports; was Re: Static RPM
>>> Question
>>>
>>> Never ever forget to lean a non-turbo charged airplane at high density
>>> altitude airports!! We have two crashes at GNT in 10 years that
>>> probably
>>> would not have happened if the pilots had leaned the engine.
>>>
>>> I was there for one and kept thinking "Lean it out! Lean it out!"
>>> but he
>>> crashed instead. The engine will run like SHIT, if you don't!
>>>
>>> In the summer afternoons in northern NM, just about every airport is
>>> above
>>> 8,000 DA, and some like GNT are pushing 10,000. The DA is so high
>>> you can't
>>> hurt the engine with full power and lean to max RPM, because the
>>> engine is
>>> making way less than 75% power.
>>>
>>> If your a bit paranoid about it or DA is 6-8K, lean to best RPM,
>>> then richen
>>> to get about 25-50 RPM drop., no more than that though. Once your
>>> 500-1000
>>> above ground level you can richen the mixture some to get some
>>> cooling if
>>> you need it. Better yet go to 75 LOP and get your cooling that way!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> nmflyer1 at aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for reminding me Doug,
>>>>
>>>> I automatically lean for takeoff out of habit. I forgot some
>>>> flatlanders (no offense) don't have to do this.
>>>> Make sure you lean properly for takeoff at higher density altitudes
>>>> (your engine manufacturer will have recomendations). It can mean a BIG
>>>> difference in power. In some cases I have heard aircraft that takeoff
>>>> without leaning actually lose RPM right after they lift off due to the
>>>> cylinders slowly loading up with fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Kurt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> To change your email address, visit
>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>
>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>
>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 63, Issue 57
>> *****************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
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>
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