No subject

Sun Mar 9 12:52:58 CDT 2008

even IN his airplane, with the other hours (I heard he claimed an actual of
about 78 hours on the airframe very near the time of the crash) being flown
with a co-pilot....usually Jan Eggenfellner, who accompanied him on his
first and many subsequent flights. When one other builder stated to him
during the time period when he was flying down to Florida after only a
couple days since his his first flight, "Dan, there's no way you could have
completed your flyoff yet." Dan's response was "That's not what the
logbooks say". It seems he didn't understand and appreciate quite how
experimental his plane really was. There were at the time of the crash over
110 other flying RV-10's with standard engines, and no fatalities. It's a
fantastically smooth flying and stable airframe, that has no intrinsic
negative flying qualities. The only thing it has that can get a pilot in
trouble is a slick airframe, a constant speed prop for complexity, and a
fast trim system at high speed.

Please read the above and understand that it is not at all my intent to
disparage Dan as a person. I think we're all mature enough to understand
that a person can be a good person, but still have some negative traits. I
just see this as a case of poor judgement leading to his own death. Also,
in regards to being a Subaru equipped plane, I don't feel that a Subaru
necessarily has to result in a lot of added risk in flying either. Even
dead engines shouldn't make dead pilots in almost all circumstances. There
is no reason why a choice of a Subaru should have to mean he was more likely

to actually die in his plane. I do think though, that when you consider the
above information, it doesn't speak well to the engine vendor in particular,

regardless of if the engine was a factor in the crash. To release to a
low-time pilot, an engine which less than 3 weeks prior had just had it's
first flight with a turbocharger, and have it fail at that time too, really
puts that pilot at risk. Add to the fact that the prop controller wasn't
completed and the complexity it causes, and it's clear that the engine
developer didn't always do things in the best interest of the customer.
There are things that should be debugged by the builder, and things that are

best left to the engine developer. Dan was not an engine builder. He
bought an engine package, and thus he should be able to expect that the
package wouldn't be given to him until some of the major things had been
operational and tested. I'm sure knowing Dan that he insisted that he could
handle flying it before it was tried and true, but a cautious and careful
engine company would insist on safety first, and wouldn't have taken part in

some of the highly risky activitiy.

Hopefully this info can help put to rest some of the worries that many have
been contacting me with. Your wives will benefit from the story too,
because when you care enough to show them this info to ease their nerves,
they will have a very good outside look at YOU as a builder and can help be
your conscience as you move forward. Are you rushing things? Are you
willing to take all the necessary safety steps? Are you going to be
responsible enough to get transition training and be current before flying
your airplane alone? Even the most non-aeronautical wife will quickly know
if you match some of the negative traits described here. If so, take a good
introspective look at yourself before you go too far. Remember, Dan is also
the one who said that he felt he could set the gross weight anywhere he
pleased, as long as he tested it. Are you really that cavalier about
things?

Build safe, fly safe, and maintain to high safety standards!

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<html><head><style type="text/css"></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Thanks for sharing this incident with everyone. It should make us all reflect on ourselves and our projects before we take to the air. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Andy Ellzey<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Terry Miles &lt;terrence_miles at hotmail.com&gt;<BR>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list &lt;reflector at tvbf.org&gt;<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:55:02 PM<BR>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fw: RV-10 accident<BR><BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thank you.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Terry</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ron Brown<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:35 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> REFLECTOR: Fw: RV-10 accident</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">Fancy panels and Automotive Engines:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I don't mean to be preaching to the choir, but I think there are some very valuable lessons here.&nbsp; In building our experimental aircraft, we need to stay focused on the number one task - SAFETY!!!&nbsp; Make sure the plane is ready to fly, the engine is thoroughly tested and checked out, and that the instrument panel and glass panels are ready to fly.&nbsp; In flying the plane the first few hours, we need to focus on flying the plane.&nbsp; After&nbsp;verifying that the plane and the engine and the systems are working properly, then we can tackle the glass panels = but do it on the GROUND.&nbsp; In the air with a new airplane is not the time to try to figure out all of the gee whizzes.&nbsp; What follows is a long read but very informative in that this fellow apparently had more money than brains, and no reasonable plan for sorting his new baby out.&nbsp;
 It cost him and his family dearly.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ronnie&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"> RE: RV-10 accident</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The link to the preliminary NTSB report on this accident was just published on <A href="http://www.vansairforce.net/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.vansairforce.net</A>.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A href="http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20071120X01821&amp;key=1" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20071120X01821&amp;key=1</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is a news article regarding the crash: <A href="http://www.sharon-herald.com/homepage/local_story_306095719.html" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.sharon-herald.com/homepage/local_story_306095719.html</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I forward this to you because as technical and first flight advisors you may run into a similar situation.&nbsp; The outcome, as described below, though tragic, provides a great opportunity for all of us to learn from, which is why I thought it important for you to read.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;Subject: rv-10 crash<BR><BR>A Tragic Case of Get-Done-Itis<BR>Regarding the first RV-10 fatal accident<BR><BR>With the first RV-10 fatal accident now occurring, and a couple other cases<BR>of RV-10's being substantially damaged, there are many builders who have<BR>contacted me who are yet to fly their RV-10 who are very concerned about<BR>what kinds of issues there are that might cause such accidents. There are<BR>many people who have said that their wives, especially, were now very<BR>nervous about them building an airplane, worried that perhaps there was<BR>something wrong with the design. It affects people greatly when they see<BR>things like this, and some have the tendency to completely pull back from<BR>seeing what could be the joyful side of building and flying your own<BR>aircraft.<BR><BR>We've known since the beginning that at some point, some day,
 statistically<BR>there would be a fatal RV-10 incident. That's the problem with<BR>statistics...you know without a doubt that a death at some point is<BR>inevitiable, but, is it REALLY? Based on piecing together a bunch of<BR>information on this first RV-10 accident, I really feel strongly that this<BR>accident in particular was not one that should have had to become a<BR>statistic. The RV-10 is a very good design, with very good handling<BR>qualities, and at the time of the first fatal had over 110 copies flying.<BR>The couple of cases of heavily damaged RV-10's were due to a couple factors,<BR><BR>and interestingly, the couple that I know of were both owned and flown by<BR>someone other than the builder...they were build-to-order RV-10's. One was<BR>a door coming off in-flight that caused the initial damage, something that<BR>we all know is a possibility and hence is why Van's came out with their door<BR><BR>latch warning kit that they supplied all
 builders with. The other was a<BR>case of pilot error on landing...something that can happen in any plane,<BR>although landing accidents, being at slower speeds, are probably less often<BR>fatal than all the other kinds. An RV-10 builder who builds their own RV-10<BR>is usually strongly encouraged by the RV-10 community to receive transition<BR>training before their first flight. This isn't to say that it could<BR>completely prevent a pilot from landing mishaps down the road, but<BR>personally, I believe it's a very good thing for all builders. When a<BR>non-builder buys an RV-10, there perhaps isn't quite the same amount of<BR>encouragement for them to attend transition training, as they may feel that<BR>they're just simply buying and picking up an airplane just like is done by<BR>many people every day. At any rate, the point is, given some basic<BR>instruction and familiarity, and a certain level of pilot proficiency and<BR>experience, there is
 nothing in regards to the airframe that really should<BR>have a serious bite to it, so from the accidents so far, all seem to be<BR>preventable, from my point of view.<BR><BR>I would like to state a couple things up front. First, this is some fact,<BR>and some opinion. You're not reading an NTSB report, you're reading a case<BR>study of information that I've become familiar with, either directly or in<BR>some cases indirectly. Absolutely NONE of it is intended to reflect badly<BR>on Dan Lloyd as a person. He was a great friend of mine since almost the<BR>first day he posted on the now-defunct RV-10 Yahoogroup. I looked forward<BR>to flying with him as we both achieved our dreams of what an RV-10 could<BR>bring for us and our families, and it crushes my heart to know that the<BR>experience for his children is now saddened. Dan was a fine man, who was<BR>friendly to all, and has done a lot to help others along the way.<BR>Unfortunately, even good people
 do bad things, as we all know. It's been<BR>said that in any accident, there are many links leading to the ultimate<BR>incident, and that by just breaking one of these links, the accident could<BR>be prevented. Unfortunately, in this case, there were lots of links that<BR>were being built very strongly, some of which may or may not have played a<BR>part in the accident. While there will likely be some data available from<BR>the EIS and Air-Data computer via his Chelton screens if they survived, due<BR>to the lack of direct information in the minutes before the crash, and the<BR>very heavy destruction of the aircraft, there is also the chance that no<BR>solid determination will ever be made.<BR><BR>From the day Dan announced himself, he made lots of friends on the various<BR>lists:<BR><BR>From: flynby_80918<BR>Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 8:41 PM<BR>Subject: [RV10] Hello-New uilder<BR><BR>"I wanted to introduce my self. My name is Dan Lloyd, I have
 been building a<BR><BR>7A, and after Oshkosh , my wife and I decided to sell the 7 kit and start a<BR>10. I will be ordering the Emp on Wed. I look forward to to meeting and<BR>working with you all over the life of this project!!<BR>If I can ever be of some help let me know. We are in NW PA, so if you are<BR>ever in the area feel free to contact us.<BR>Dan Lloyd"<BR><BR>And shortly thereafter he posted his Bio:<BR>"Bio: 34, IT Manager for Werner Ladder, PP-SEL, Instrument Student, 150<BR>Hours TT, Cherokee Driver, till 10 is done. Based in Hermitage, PA. It is on<BR><BR>the Ohio Border, 1 hour North of PITT. Have 2 Kids, 11 and 6, not adding any<BR><BR>more, (they do not make a larger kit plane!) Finishing Emp/Cone, have wings<BR>ready to start. I agree with Tim, seems like a lot of geeks are into plane<BR>building, maybe we like the many hours of alone time in the garage? "<BR><BR>As time progressed, he was also very happy to get from me my original
 RV-10<BR>wooden model, after I finally got one painted with my own paint scheme. He<BR>loved having this thing around.<BR><A href="http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/misc/RV200507010122.html" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://wwwmyrv10.com/N104CD/misc/RV200507010122.html</A><BR><BR>Down the road a ways, when we had the big axle extension group buy, you may<BR>remember Dan offered his help for some of the overseas people:<BR>"Tim for everyone in Europe and further East I will help with the packaging<BR>and sending. Just send me the list of people and I will make sure it gets<BR>out to them. I think there was one from Germany , and I do not know how many<BR>others, but I can help.<BR>Dan<BR>N289DT "<BR><BR>You get the picture....Dan was a guy who was known by lots of people, very<BR>nice to most everyone, and was a good participant in the RV-10 family.<BR><BR>When good people do bad things...<BR><BR>Much of my info is from other people who Dan discussed some
 things with more<BR><BR>often than myself. I have always tended to express the opinion that care<BR>and safety be used, and to "do it right" to him, to encourage him to not do<BR>things that could cause him problems. That caused him to have a tendency to<BR>avoid telling me things he thought would just bring him a lecture. That's<BR>understandable, but I think he really just didn't feel that some things were<BR><BR>as risky as they may have been. I always pointed out to him though that<BR>even though he's heard lots of people have good luck with Subaru engines in<BR>planes, that his particular installation was a first, and he needed to be<BR>extra cautious with everything related to his engine. Luckily he did tell a<BR>few other people his stories though, and I was able to observe from a bit of<BR><BR>a distance.<BR><BR>Dan's first flight occurred 7/12/2007, and per an email from him to an email<BR><BR>list, lasted 40 minutes, and said they had "just a
 few small issues to fix<BR>tomorrow"<BR>On 7/13/2007 in the early a.m. he emailed the group this:<BR>"39 hours and 20 minutes to go, and if I follow the plan I will make it with<BR><BR>a little to spare, but God controls the weather.....I think we will make the<BR><BR>40 hours and flying on Thursday evening and park at Eggenfellners booth.<BR>Dan<BR>N289DT Now Flying.. "<BR><BR>On the 13th, he had added on another hour and a half or so from what I had<BR>heard from others. By that point they had experienced some high oil temps,<BR>and I heard talk that they were thinking of flying the aircraft down to Jan<BR>Eggenfellners shop to work on it before Airventure. Remeber that Dan had a<BR>completely new iteration of experimental Subaru, with a completely new prop,<BR><BR>and that caused him to have a 40 hour flyoff requirement, so it was a bit<BR>shocking to hear that he was contemplating flying to Florida right away.<BR>The fact that he spent a vast
 majority of his time in N289DT with another<BR>person on board wasn't surprising, as he indeed probably did need Jan<BR>Eggenfellner aboard on many of those flights to help work through the issues<BR><BR>on the engine.<BR><BR>On 7/14/2007 I heard that they indeed had left for Florida , and that they<BR>planned to be back at KOSH by Thursday for the show. The Thursday date did<BR>end up slipping, due to delays in getting things working, but they did make<BR>it to Florida .<BR><BR>He did email the email list on 7/13, and stated "You have it right a<BR>certified combo will be 25 hours and an uncertified combo is 40 hours --Dan"<BR><BR>That indicates that he did indeed know the rules about flyoff time as it<BR>applies to his engine and prop and airframe.<BR>On the trip to Florida , I had heard that they experienced the same high oil<BR>temps, and had pretty slow cruise speeds that were down in the sub-140kt<BR>range. They also had experienced some strange
 vibrations that they were<BR>unsure of the origin of, and wanted to investigate those when they made it<BR>to Florida .<BR><BR>On I believe 7/14 or perhaps 7/15, (for sure by 7/15) Dan emailed or called<BR>me, I can't remember which, to ask how to disable "bitching betty". He had<BR>complained that his alarms were annoying him, and wanted to know how to<BR>silence it all. I told him that once he had finished calibrating his EFIS<BR>and alarm setpoints during his test flights, they would<BR>be in the green most of the time, that he'd not be bothered so much. Alarms<BR>only go off when you're out of the specified green range, so I told him it<BR>was up to him to set proper ranges and make sure his sensors were setup and<BR>calibrated properly so the readings were right. But once you did all that,<BR>you should not receive many false alarms. I realized by talking to him that<BR>he had never calibrated ANY of his avionics, so headings were off (I
 had<BR>heard by 30 to 70 degrees), engine items were alarming all the time and he<BR>had issues with chosing to display propeller RPM or engine RPM (due to the<BR>reduction unit), he had no pitot test, and nothing had been debugged much at<BR><BR>all. I had heard that on his flight to Florida , he had an INOP transponder<BR>part of the time, that neither of his 2 EFIS systems were working right<BR>(because they were never set up), and that they navigated to Florida above<BR>an undercast with just a handheld 396/496 type GPS, which was basically<BR>their only operational navigation instrumentation. They had decided just to<BR>plug their headsets in using some alternative method to avoid having to<BR>listen to alarms, and had to swap plugs to make radio calls. His Autopilot<BR>was also non-operational on this trip. It really started to worry me that<BR>he and Jan Eggenfellner were showing such lack of pilot judgement in<BR>participating in such a trip. If
 you look at all the popular engine<BR>companies like Aerosport, Barret, and all the other good ones, how many of<BR>those companies do you know that would endorse taking off on such a trip<BR>after such a short flying experience...even though the engines they install<BR>and run they have extensive track records with?<BR><BR>It was apparent to me that he was trying to snow the rest of the community<BR>into believing he was indeed doing his diligent flyoff time, because he then<BR><BR>made a post to the email list saying how he was so very tired every day<BR>because they had been flying taking turns, sun-up to sundown trying to get<BR>the 40 hours flown off. He was trying to conjure up the image to the public<BR>when in fact he had not planned to fly off the 40 hours at all before going<BR>to OSH . During the time they were in Florida , it sounded from reports I<BR>heard that they spend most of their time doing things like swapping out the<BR>gear drive
 unit (one or more tiems) and attempting cooling improvements to<BR>get the engine to OSH , and that they actually were flying very little.<BR><BR>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:56 PM<BR>To: <A href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist/post?postID=dbXx7jqn__0_Xg-lu_9ZITyo1Z5Kk5FOOioC4GLDvKUWp9mVuYB3wQCTCSdmR1wF5b2tPpQVFZo_dkrbCn6z" target=_blank rel=nofollow>rv10-list at ...</A> &lt;mailto:rv10-list%40matronics.com&gt;<BR>Subject: RE: RV10-List: Surreal experience realized today...<BR>--&gt; RV10-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R."<BR>I have been asked by many people for pictures and I apologize I forgot to<BR>post them. I have been having so much fun flying, and falling into bed<BR>exhausted every night that I left the camera at the hanger. Jesse and John I<BR><BR>promise I will post the pics tonight for all to see...as long as no one<BR>makes fun of the paint or lack there of!!!<BR>Dan<BR>N289DT RV10E Flying<BR><BR>Prior to 7/19 I heard a
 very disturbing comment that I can't verify that he<BR>also skipped doing a proper Weight and Balance on his plane, and that he had<BR><BR>simply used MY weight and balance numbers and modified them to be roughly<BR>what he believed his plane would be. This I though was so entirely<BR>ridiculous, especially after telling us how much lighter his Subaru<BR>installation and prop would be, that I had to call in on it. So, on 7/19 I<BR>made a public post, trying to urge him to tell people how his W&amp;B had turned<BR><BR>out with his Subaru. I had heard that on his flight to Florida , they<BR>realized in flight that his C.G. was too far aft, based on some flying<BR>qualities. He planned now to move the battery forward eventually,<BR>which was something he did within the day or two before his death. His<BR>flight that he died on may have actually happend on the first flight after<BR>moving the battery forward, because on the phone he told me he was
 moving<BR>the battery and planned to weigh it and fly it. This is not to indicate it<BR>as a cause in the crash, but it does both point to something he knew needed<BR>to be done, and a mechanical task performed just prior to the crash.<BR><BR>During the days down at Eggenfellners in Florida , I had heard that they were<BR><BR>also disappointed in the speed that the aircraft flew on the way down. They<BR>had expected much more with that engine and 4-bladed prop. But, when it<BR>arrived at OSH they had removed 2 blades from the 4-bladed propeller and<BR>flew it up that way. The engine was also planned to be a turbocharged<BR>engine, but that turbo hadn't been completed yet so they flew it for all of<BR>the preliminary flights, and for many weeks after, without the turbo.<BR>Another interesting happening that was largely un-discussed is that on the<BR>trip to OSH from Florida , they had a failure of a bracket that caused them<BR>high oil temps suddenly,
 grounding them in Kentucky until they could get<BR>some parts to fabricate a new bracket at a local store.<BR><BR>At OSH he was making claims that he had something like 48 hours on the<BR>airplane, and he and Jan Eggenfellner displayed the airplane and engine and<BR>tried to attract buyers for the engine package. There was no discussion of<BR>working through issues, but only stories of smoothness and success, as it<BR>was important to keep the positive image up. They had removed the cowling<BR>during the show for the whole time because they had quickly put together<BR>many cowling mods to try to increase cooling and were left with lots of<BR>unfinished fiberglass edges, and other things that would make it look awful.<BR><BR>I had heard, but not seen myself, that there were stringers of epoxy covered<BR><BR>fiberglass cloth that were poking out from various places that were sharp<BR>and un-filed down, so the cowling was hid away.<BR><BR>After OSH , with
 the problems they had experienced, they wanted to work on it<BR><BR>some more so instead of heading to Pennsylvania , they flew it back to<BR>Florida for the work. It stayed down there until sometime in about<BR>mid-October, but I don't know the exact date. Around 10/10 they posted some<BR>performance numbers, but by 10/25 the airplane was back home with Dan. A<BR>video was put out of him departing Florida . During the second time in<BR>Florida , they did cowling development work, to try to fix all the remaining<BR>cooling problems and clean up the cosmetics, and install a cowl flap. I<BR>heard that they got the temperatures much better with the redesigned cowl<BR>and cowl flap. What struck me as strange though was they hadn't yet<BR>installed the turbocharger, and I thought it was strange that they would do<BR>all that cowling development work prior to getting a turbo installed that<BR>would definitely affect the cooling requirements. Towards the very
 end of<BR>the stay in Florida , the turbo was finally ready, so they installed that.<BR>They took it for a speed test to 14,000' and compared numbers with the ones<BR>that had been gathered by Ray and myself on Lycoming equipped RV-10's. But,<BR>in the process of getting their numbers, they had actually destroyed the<BR>turbocharger, so they had to do another turbo swap. Incidently, I've heard<BR>that aircraft turbos are built substantially heavier to handle the high duty<BR><BR>cycle involved in aircraft power generation, whereas automotive turbos have<BR>a lower duty cycle....but I'm not sure what the type of turbo used on this<BR>install was. Of course, the information about the turbo being destroyed was<BR>not presented along with the numbers, because that again would result in<BR>more 2nd guessing by would-be interested parties. But, in not much time<BR>after that, however (within a week or two), Dan was down to pick up his<BR>plane, and they had a
 new turbo on it. It was posted on eggenfellners<BR>website and still is as of this writing.<BR><A href="http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/News.htm" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/News.htm</A><BR><BR>Interestingly, when they did their speed tests, they took photos of their<BR>Chelton's as proof, and on the website you can see photos of the Cheltons<BR>that clearly show that they never did calibrate the AHRS or set up the unit.<BR><BR>It is still set to display info from a strikefinder, which he did not have,<BR>the heading is off by 30 degrees or so (I had heard they had mis-alignment<BR>up to 70 degrees), and when you compare the skid ball with the Dynon, they<BR>do not match at all. When installing avionics of this nature, there is a<BR>lot of setup and calibration that needs to be done in the airframe before<BR>flight, and that has to be taken on by the builder. In his case, almost<BR>nothing was ever done to
 calibrate any of the systems. At the time, I had<BR>also questioned the accuracy of the numbers they presented, because if<BR>nothing is calibrated, how can you guarantee that your speed numbers are<BR>accurate?<BR>You will notice in the photos that the ENGINE and AUX SENSOR alarm flags are<BR><BR>also going off. I understand that they flew the plane up the busy East<BR>coast and right over New York City like this to bring it home, stopping in<BR>Boston on the way back too. He flew it home with a friend of his, so once<BR>again he had a co-pilot onboard during his flights. This perhaps actually<BR>extended the amount of time that the RV-10 actually survived, because there<BR>were apparently some very workload-intensive things in his airplane, the<BR>least of which was inaccurate instrumentation.<BR><BR>At one point within 2 or 3 weeks of his crash, he had called me to tell me<BR>he was having problems with power vs. RPM control. I was surprised
 and<BR>wondered why, with a constant speed prop. I had never dealt with electric<BR>propellers before, so it puzzled me why he would be having problems. He<BR>said it was because they had not yet finished designing the prop control<BR>unit, so he had to manually make power adjustments, which would change the<BR>engine and prop RPM greatly, but then with the prop now changing RPM<BR>drastically (affecting pitch too) he would have to manually move a prop<BR>pitch lever to bring the RPM to it's desired setting. So every power<BR>increase or reduction required a corresponding adjustment of the propeller.<BR>With this and all the other instrument issues, it was really a busy plane to<BR><BR>fly, and I can see why you'd want a co-pilot along on most flights. It to<BR>me seemed very strange that Jan Eggenfellner would have him fly home and<BR>consider the engine "delivered" without such equipment operational. Dan did<BR>not have that many hours of total time
 (under 200, and other than the<BR>transition training, all lower performance) and flying a slick, fast plane<BR>is a handful. Combine that with not having calibrated any avionics, hearing<BR>alarms going off all the time, and the prop control issues, and this plane<BR>was much more complex to deal with than most planes would be. I know it's<BR>"Experimental" aviation, so sure, we can play with new things, but Dan<BR>wasn't the engine designer...he was just the guy stuck with flying such a<BR>complex plane.<BR><BR>Also along the way in the past couple weeks he had emailed to indicate that<BR>he thought his Chelton wasn't displaying correctly. He said he had<BR>indicated 2300 G's (G-forces) when flying with his wife, and he emailed a<BR>photo.<BR><BR>"This should make you laugh, I bet your RV10 can't pull 2300G's"<BR><BR>Well, of course an incorrectly calibrated system won't read properly, and<BR>since I knew he still hadn't calibrated things, it didn't
 surprise me, but<BR>as it turned out, he was reading "2300G" which means 2300' AGL GPS Based, as<BR><BR>2300G's. He had never really read through any operation manuals for his<BR>avionics. He had in the past, complained that on his trip to florida his<BR>Autopilot didn't work, and criticized one avionics dealer for not telling<BR>him that he had to hook up pitot and static lines to his<BR>Autopilot...something that is a definite<BR>normal part of the autopilot installation per the manual. It was very clear<BR>that he hadn't spent much time checking out his installation, or reading any<BR><BR>manuals to ensure they were correct.<BR><BR>On 10/25, he emailed me this:<BR><BR>"Eww I am an idiot!! I had no clue because yesterday I was at 6000ft and it<BR>did the same thing, listing 2330 g's with the same reading, and then tumbled<BR><BR>to the right. I am scarred of it and that is why I have not been using it.<BR>It is difficult for me to process everything
 it is telling me. I can<BR>understand some of it, but then it starts putting up all this other stuff<BR>and it is just easier for me to look out the window for now. But I do need<BR>to learn it so I can feel comfortable before I ask an instructor to fly with<BR><BR>me. I called stein and he said it is because I have not calibrated it, for<BR>that matter this is the first couple of times I have turned it on for<BR>anything. So yes I need to read the manuals and build many hours using it<BR>before I get in the clouds. I need allot of help to learn all of this stuff<BR>because I am not having a clue on how to do it. Definitely a case of money<BR>versus intelligence. But I have to learn it to use it. Does that mean I can<BR>come up and get some lessons? Or do you know anyone who will teach behind<BR>it? I have been using the Dynon and G496 because they are easy. Everything<BR>else is still uncalibrated, including the AP etc. I am definitely behind<BR>the
 power curve on this and need help! And they say that is the first step<BR>to recovery, realizing that there is an issue and asking for help! -Dan"<BR><BR>That scared the CRAP out of me. Period. I mean, it's one thing to know all<BR>of the stuff you just got done reading, but clearly, here was a guy who was<BR>not up to speed on the airplane, the avionics, and some other comments he'd<BR>been heard to make even made me wonder if he didn't just need a general<BR>pilot refresher.<BR><BR>Trying to keep him open to listening, I replied back and tried to come<BR>across as not lecturing too much, knowing that he'd tune me out if I did...<BR><BR>I wrote:<BR>"You know, what might work better for you until you calibrate it, is to get<BR>yourself some some nice sticky paper or 5x6 post-it notes and write these<BR>letters on it. "INOP". Then just paste it over your screens. ;)<BR><BR>But seriously, you really need to just first sit down and read the
 manuals.<BR>Chelton has user manuals on your site, and I have them posted on the EFIS<BR>forum. Then, there's Keith's book that you said you bought....that will<BR>give you the more detailed stuff for later. And of course, the install<BR>guide. That one you'll need if you ever want to see things working well<BR>enough to trust for navigation. It's all in the manuals to start. If this<BR>thing were calibrated and working, you wouldn't have that feeling that<BR>looking out the window is better for you, because it would actually work<BR>well.<BR><BR>&lt;Note that I'm not saying you shouldn't look out the window, but you want<BR>instruments that work properly to make it easy to fly the plane&gt;<BR><BR>As far as training goes, Josh the old D2A guy does EFIS training and he'd be<BR><BR>the absolute best option. He's a hired gun who can come out and give<BR>training that will set you on the fast track quickly. Beyond that, it's<BR>really not worth learning
 until the stuff is set up properly. When you come<BR>up this way, I can take you out for a flight and show you some things too,<BR>but really, once it's set up, you'll get the basics very quickly from flying<BR><BR>and the manuals. All the things that a trainer would really be valuable for<BR>are the things like flight-planning and approaches, and things like<BR>that....but that's way beyond what you should be doing with the system until<BR><BR>you're A) comfortable, and B) have all the stuff working right. You'll find<BR>later that it's really a very easy system to use, much more so than a 430 or<BR><BR>480.<BR><BR>Also, if you have an airline pilot friend, they'd be a good victim to bring<BR>along, because they know the symbolism on the glass pretty well, even though<BR><BR>this system has more than theirs for features.<BR><BR>Don't worry, I only bill $800/hr for my EFIS instruction... and I do it in<BR>my own airplane since there's an EFIS on both
 sides. ;)<BR>Tim "<BR><BR>He followed upwith another reply:<BR><BR>"I just got off the phone with XXX, and he said it is like trying to drink<BR>from a fire hose, and I tend to agree. I need to get my hands around flying<BR>the airplane and getting everything calibrated. Then I can sit down and read<BR><BR>the complete manuals. I have read the first 4 chapters of the Chelton<BR>manuals but that is just basic symbology and the tapes, and those I do<BR>understand. IF you take all of my owners manuals and stack them up they are<BR>over 3 feet high!<BR>I am lucky the dynon and 496 are already familiar because I can use them to<BR>navigate and get myself out of trouble if absolutely necessary. Remember I<BR>have only flown a Cherokee140 for 200 hours, so I am learning how to fly<BR>high perf stuff too, I feel more comfortable, but still learning the Egg<BR>stuff/ and the variable pitch prop is also more stuff to learn. I am getting<BR><BR>there and in a
 couple of hundred more hours I will maybe be ready to start<BR>IFR training again. I have passed the written, and have 10 hours towards it,<BR><BR>but with the new plane I can already tell it will be time to start over.<BR>Right now I am working on how to slow down and make sure I have enough pitch<BR><BR>on the prop for a go around, once that is done, I will move up the ladder a<BR>rung and work on additional stuff. Calibration, troubleshooting other<BR>electronics etc is also going on at the same time. XXXX and you both say I<BR>have to just laugh at myself and the various issues I am having because<BR>everyone has something or another happen. But it just seems like lately I am<BR><BR>way out of my comfort zone and clawing my way back in.<BR><BR>THX for the guidance and glad I could make you laugh this afternoon. "<BR><BR>I had one more follow-up for him:<BR><BR>"No prob. You're right, there's a lot of stuff there to learn even without<BR>the
 avionics. Now you see why I say the -10 isn't something I'd recommend<BR>to a basic beginning student pilot. It's not a hard plane to fly or land,<BR>but there's more to the -10 than a cherokee, and it would be nice to get the<BR><BR>time in a $50K cherokee so if you smack it up you don't waste all your cash.<BR><BR>The -10 is high performance, slippery, and there's a LOT going on with the<BR>C/S prop and engine stuff. Then, throw in high tech avionics and it's just<BR>too much to use as a trainer, as you can see it's a handful with a couple<BR>hundred hours.<BR><BR>I would encourage you to calibrate a.s.a.p. because you really will be<BR>hindered in improving skills and having the experience go well until that's<BR>done. Things like Bitchin' betty are there for a reason, and just flying<BR>without them will not add to the safety. It would be better to HAVE the<BR>warnings when they happen, but have them happen appropriately. None of it<BR>is that hard
 to set up, but it all takes time.<BR><BR>I flew 70-100 hours before I did anything other than normal stuff for the<BR>most part. Just take your time.<BR>Tim "<BR><BR>See, I almost feel like a father when I read that....You've got this kid<BR>that you know is doing stupid things, and he's not going to listen to a<BR>lecture, but during that one chance when he finally comes and asks for help,<BR><BR>you try not to be an ass and come down on him, but give him all the<BR>encouraging advice you can. You can tell he was in over his head in both<BR>airplane and avionics, because he hadn't taken the time to really learn<BR>either, and almost 100% of his flying time up to this point was with someone<BR><BR>else in the plane to help keep an eye on things. Unfortunately, it leaves<BR>me feeling guilty that I never just strangled him into getting some good<BR>sense and judgement. His statement about his comfort zone is very scary<BR>indeed.<BR><BR>On 11/1/2007, the
 day before his crash, Dan emailed me to ask what landing<BR>speeds I use at full gross, and I replied to him. Here are some excerpts<BR>along with a follow-up comment from him:<BR><BR>"What speeds do you carry on base and final when at max load? I am taking<BR>the family on our first trip and I am being paranoid but this is the first<BR>time I have taken more than 1 passenger. So just doing due diligence."<BR><BR>For what it's worth, I wrote:<BR><BR>"I fly pretty much every landing the same even with or without passengers.<BR>80-85kts around base (keep it below 87kts once the flaps are out) Then once<BR>you get on final it's either 75Kts on a bumpy, windy day, or a strict 70kts<BR>and no slower if it's relatively smooth out. Just don't let it get below 70<BR>until the runway is right under you, and you're in the flare."<BR><BR>And he replied again:<BR><BR>"Good that has been what I have been flying, but I float awhile and was<BR>thinking I was carrying
 to much speed because Mike had us carry 70 mph on<BR>final, and since I switched to knots I was thinking that was my issue, but<BR>until I get allot more comfortable I will bleed the speed over the runway,<BR>instead of slowing on the approach, much safer in my mind! Going to the<BR>airport to redo W&amp;B after I moved the batteries forward, then I get to fly<BR>this afternoon and tomorrow to get ready to take the family to Boston on<BR>Saturday! THX for being there for questions, it is always good to have a<BR>friend that can double check my thoughts."<BR><BR>That was the last communication I had with Dan before I learned of his crash<BR><BR>just over 12 hours later. I had heard prior to this that Dan had really had<BR>a hard time on landing the plane, having to go-around sometimes multiple<BR>times before a successful landing. Since he had 10 hours of transition<BR>training, albeit a few months earlier, I figure it HAD to be because of his<BR>extra
 workload with the propeller controls, and his low-time status, because<BR><BR>it absolutely isn't a hard plane to land. Given the fact that he probably<BR>didn't even have 5 hours in his airplane as a sole-occupant though, it is<BR>easy to see how he actually was able to put on some hours without incident<BR>before this.<BR><BR>All of the above comes from either conversations I've had with him, or other<BR><BR>people had with him and passed on. Much of it is second hand, but to me,<BR>all of it indicates a pilot and engine builder who spent all their time<BR>rushing to complete an install to display at OSH , and they would be willing<BR>to break just about any rule to accomplish that. Then, throughout the<BR>process, there was a pilot who was in way over his head with a very much<BR>more complex mess of an airplane than anyone else had flown.<BR>It's extremely sad and hard for me to say, but I saw it as a completely<BR>expected conclusion that some day
 he would end up in a smoking hole in the<BR>ground, and in fact the night before, when we heard he was taking his family<BR><BR>to Boston , at home we said that we needed to pray for his family if he was<BR>going to take them for a flight. Why would someone who just very recently<BR>described his flying the -10 as "scary", be now racing to share the<BR>experience with his family before he truly felt comfortable? It truly<BR>distrubs me that I could see the end coming so clearly from back as far as a<BR><BR>week or two before OSH . As I talked to him and learned more and more of the<BR>above info, and many more things that I can't even remember at this time, it<BR><BR>was readily apparent that no matter how nice, friendly, and capable Dan was<BR>as a member of the RV-10 building community, he had a serious lack of<BR>caution about flying his Eggenfellner Subaru, and very poor judgement about<BR>his piloting in general. He was my worst fear for our RV-10
 world...someone<BR>who would not only bring insurance issues, and a negative image of homebuilt<BR><BR>aircraft, but someone who would kill himself doing it.<BR><BR>From the best I can tell, Dan's experience was likely under 20 or 25 hours<BR>even IN his airplane, with the other hours (I heard he claimed an actual of<BR>about 78 hours on the airframe very near the time of the crash) being flown<BR>with a co-pilot....usually Jan Eggenfellner, who accompanied him on his<BR>first and many subsequent flights. When one other builder stated to him<BR>during the time period when he was flying down to Florida after only a<BR>couple days since his his first flight, "Dan, there's no way you could have<BR>completed your flyoff yet." Dan's response was "That's not what the<BR>logbooks say". It seems he didn't understand and appreciate quite how<BR>experimental his plane really was. There were at the time of the crash over<BR>110 other flying RV-10's with standard
 engines, and no fatalities. It's a<BR>fantastically smooth flying and stable airframe, that has no intrinsic<BR>negative flying qualities. The only thing it has that can get a pilot in<BR>trouble is a slick airframe, a constant speed prop for complexity, and a<BR>fast trim system at high speed.<BR><BR>Please read the above and understand that it is not at all my intent to<BR>disparage Dan as a person. I think we're all mature enough to understand<BR>that a person can be a good person, but still have some negative traits. I<BR>just see this as a case of poor judgement leading to his own death. Also,<BR>in regards to being a Subaru equipped plane, I don't feel that a Subaru<BR>necessarily has to result in a lot of added risk in flying either. Even<BR>dead engines shouldn't make dead pilots in almost all circumstances. There<BR>is no reason why a choice of a Subaru should have to mean he was more likely<BR><BR>to actually die in his plane. I do think
 though, that when you consider the<BR>above information, it doesn't speak well to the engine vendor in particular,<BR><BR>regardless of if the engine was a factor in the crash. To release to a<BR>low-time pilot, an engine which less than 3 weeks prior had just had it's<BR>first flight with a turbocharger, and have it fail at that time too, really<BR>puts that pilot at risk. Add to the fact that the prop controller wasn't<BR>completed and the complexity it causes, and it's clear that the engine<BR>developer didn't always do things in the best interest of the customer.<BR>There are things that should be debugged by the builder, and things that are<BR><BR>best left to the engine developer. Dan was not an engine builder. He<BR>bought an engine package, and thus he should be able to expect that the<BR>package wouldn't be given to him until some of the major things had been<BR>operational and tested. I'm sure knowing Dan that he insisted that he
 could<BR>handle flying it before it was tried and true, but a cautious and careful<BR>engine company would insist on safety first, and wouldn't have taken part in<BR><BR>some of the highly risky activitiy.<BR><BR>Hopefully this info can help put to rest some of the worries that many have<BR>been contacting me with. Your wives will benefit from the story too,<BR>because when you care enough to show them this info to ease their nerves,<BR>they will have a very good outside look at YOU as a builder and can help be<BR>your conscience as you move forward. Are you rushing things? Are you<BR>willing to take all the necessary safety steps? Are you going to be<BR>responsible enough to get transition training and be current before flying<BR>your airplane alone? Even the most non-aeronautical wife will quickly know<BR>if you match some of the negative traits described here. If so, take a good<BR>introspective look at yourself before you go too far. Remember, Dan
 is also<BR>the one who said that he felt he could set the gross weight anywhere he<BR>pleased, as long as he tested it. Are you really that cavalier about<BR>things?<BR><BR>Build safe, fly safe, and maintain to high safety standards!</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV><!-- kill -->
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