No subject

Sun Mar 9 12:52:58 CDT 2008

hours
even IN his airplane, with the other hours (I heard he claimed an actual =
of
about 78 hours on the airframe very near the time of the crash) being =
flown
with a co-pilot....usually Jan Eggenfellner, who accompanied him on his
first and many subsequent flights. When one other builder stated to him
during the time period when he was flying down to Florida after only a
couple days since his his first flight, "Dan, there's no way you could =
have
completed your flyoff yet." Dan's response was "That's not what the
logbooks say". It seems he didn't understand and appreciate quite how
experimental his plane really was. There were at the time of the crash =
over
110 other flying RV-10's with standard engines, and no fatalities. It's =
a
fantastically smooth flying and stable airframe, that has no intrinsic
negative flying qualities. The only thing it has that can get a pilot in
trouble is a slick airframe, a constant speed prop for complexity, and a
fast trim system at high speed.

Please read the above and understand that it is not at all my intent to
disparage Dan as a person. I think we're all mature enough to understand
that a person can be a good person, but still have some negative traits. =
I
just see this as a case of poor judgement leading to his own death. =
Also,
in regards to being a Subaru equipped plane, I don't feel that a Subaru
necessarily has to result in a lot of added risk in flying either. Even
dead engines shouldn't make dead pilots in almost all circumstances. =
There
is no reason why a choice of a Subaru should have to mean he was more =
likely

to actually die in his plane. I do think though, that when you consider =
the
above information, it doesn't speak well to the engine vendor in =
particular,

regardless of if the engine was a factor in the crash. To release to a
low-time pilot, an engine which less than 3 weeks prior had just had =
it's
first flight with a turbocharger, and have it fail at that time too, =
really
puts that pilot at risk. Add to the fact that the prop controller wasn't
completed and the complexity it causes, and it's clear that the engine
developer didn't always do things in the best interest of the customer.
There are things that should be debugged by the builder, and things that =
are

best left to the engine developer. Dan was not an engine builder. He
bought an engine package, and thus he should be able to expect that the
package wouldn't be given to him until some of the major things had been
operational and tested. I'm sure knowing Dan that he insisted that he =
could
handle flying it before it was tried and true, but a cautious and =
careful
engine company would insist on safety first, and wouldn't have taken =
part in

some of the highly risky activitiy.

Hopefully this info can help put to rest some of the worries that many =
have
been contacting me with. Your wives will benefit from the story too,
because when you care enough to show them this info to ease their =
nerves,
they will have a very good outside look at YOU as a builder and can help =
be
your conscience as you move forward. Are you rushing things? Are you
willing to take all the necessary safety steps? Are you going to be
responsible enough to get transition training and be current before =
flying
your airplane alone? Even the most non-aeronautical wife will quickly =
know
if you match some of the negative traits described here. If so, take a =
good
introspective look at yourself before you go too far. Remember, Dan is =
also
the one who said that he felt he could set the gross weight anywhere he
pleased, as long as he tested it. Are you really that cavalier about
things?

Build safe, fly safe, and maintain to high safety standards!
------=_NextPart_000_023F_01C883AF.0FB75E10
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m =3D=20
"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"><HEAD><TITLE>Message</=
TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3268" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE>@font-face {
	font-family: PMingLiU;
}
@font-face {
	font-family: Cambria Math;
}
@font-face {
	font-family: Calibri;
}
@font-face {
	font-family: @PMingLiU;
}
@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; }
P.MsoNormal {
	FONT-SIZE: 11pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri","sans-serif"
}
LI.MsoNormal {
	FONT-SIZE: 11pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri","sans-serif"
}
DIV.MsoNormal {
	FONT-SIZE: 11pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri","sans-serif"
}
A:link {
	COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlink {
	COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
A:visited {
	COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {
	COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.EmailStyle17 {
	COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: =
personal-compose
}
.MsoChpDefault {
	mso-style-type: export-only
}
DIV.Section1 {
	page: Section1
}
</STYLE>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
  <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
 </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></HEAD>
<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><B>Fancy panels and Automotive Engines:</B></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>I don't mean to be preaching to the choir, but I think =
there are=20
some very valuable lessons here.&nbsp; In building our experimental =
aircraft, we=20
need to stay focused on the number one task - SAFETY!!!&nbsp; Make sure =
the=20
plane is ready to fly, the engine is thoroughly tested and checked out, =
and that=20
the instrument panel and glass panels are ready to fly.&nbsp; In flying =
the=20
plane the first few hours, we need to focus on flying the plane.&nbsp;=20
After&nbsp;verifying that the plane and the engine and the systems are =
working=20
properly, then we can tackle the glass panels =3D but do it on the =
GROUND.&nbsp;=20
In the air with a new airplane is not the time to try to figure out all =
of the=20
gee whizzes.&nbsp; What follows is a long read but very informative in =
that this=20
fellow apparently had more money than brains, and no reasonable plan for =
sorting=20
his new baby out.&nbsp; It cost him and his family =
dearly.</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Ronnie&nbsp;&nbsp;</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><B></B>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> RE: RV-10 accident</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D531264923-22112007>The=20
link to the preliminary NTSB report on this accident was just published =
on <A=20
href=3D"http://www.vansairforce.net">www.vansairforce.net</A>.</SPAN></FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=3D20071120X01821&amp;key=
=3D1">http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=3D20071120X01821&amp;key=3D=
1</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>This is a news article =
regarding=20
the crash: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.sharon-herald.com/homepage/local_story_306095719.html"=
>http://www.sharon-herald.com/homepage/local_story_306095719.html</A></FO=
NT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I forward this to you =
because as=20
technical and first flight advisors you may run into a similar =
situation.&nbsp;=20
The outcome, as described below, though tragic, provides a great =
opportunity for=20
all of us to learn from, which is why I thought it important for you to=20
read.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>--------------</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'"><SPAN=20
class=3D015243222-22112007>&nbsp;</SPAN>Subject: rv-10 crash<BR><BR>A =
Tragic Case=20
of Get-Done-Itis<BR>Regarding the first RV-10 fatal accident<BR><BR>With =
the=20
first RV-10 fatal accident now occurring, and a couple other cases<BR>of =
RV-10's=20
being substantially damaged, there are many builders who =
have<BR>contacted me=20
who are yet to fly their RV-10 who are very concerned about<BR>what =
kinds of=20
issues there are that might cause such accidents. There are<BR>many =
people who=20
have said that their wives, especially, were now very<BR>nervous about =
them=20
building an airplane, worried that perhaps there was<BR>something wrong =
with the=20
design. It affects people greatly when they see<BR>things like this, and =
some=20
have the tendency to completely pull back from<BR>seeing what could be =
the=20
joyful side of building and flying your own<BR>aircraft.<BR><BR>We've =
known=20
since the beginning that at some point, some day, statistically<BR>there =
would=20
be a fatal RV-10 incident. That's the problem with<BR>statistics...you =
know=20
without a doubt that a death at some point is<BR>inevitiable, but, is it =
REALLY?=20
Based on piecing together a bunch of<BR>information on this first RV-10=20
accident, I really feel strongly that this<BR>accident in particular was =
not one=20
that should have had to become a<BR>statistic. The RV-10 is a very good =
design,=20
with very good handling<BR>qualities, and at the time of the first fatal =
had=20
over 110 copies flying.<BR>The couple of cases of heavily damaged =
RV-10's were=20
due to a couple factors,<BR><BR>and interestingly, the couple that I =
know of=20
were both owned and flown by<BR>someone other than the builder...they =
were=20
build-to-order RV-10's. One was<BR>a door coming off in-flight that =
caused the=20
initial damage, something that<BR>we all know is a possibility and hence =
is why=20
Van's came out with their door<BR><BR>latch warning kit that they =
supplied all=20
builders with. The other was a<BR>case of pilot error on =
landing...something=20
that can happen in any plane,<BR>although landing accidents, being at =
slower=20
speeds, are probably less often<BR>fatal than all the other kinds. An =
RV-10=20
builder who builds their own RV-10<BR>is usually strongly encouraged by =
the=20
RV-10 community to receive transition<BR>training before their first =
flight.=20
This isn't to say that it could<BR>completely prevent a pilot from =
landing=20
mishaps down the road, but<BR>personally, I believe it's a very good =
thing for=20
all builders. When a<BR>non-builder buys an RV-10, there perhaps isn't =
quite the=20
same amount of<BR>encouragement for them to attend transition training, =
as they=20
may feel that<BR>they're just simply buying and picking up an airplane =
just like=20
is done by<BR>many people every day. At any rate, the point is, given =
some=20
basic<BR>instruction and familiarity, and a certain level of pilot =
proficiency=20
and<BR>experience, there is nothing in regards to the airframe that =
really=20
should<BR>have a serious bite to it, so from the accidents so far, all =
seem to=20
be<BR>preventable, from my point of view.<BR><BR>I would like to state a =
couple=20
things up front. First, this is some fact,<BR>and some opinion. You're =
not=20
reading an NTSB report, you're reading a case<BR>study of information =
that I've=20
become familiar with, either directly or in<BR>some cases indirectly. =
Absolutely=20
NONE of it is intended to reflect badly<BR>on Dan Lloyd as a person. He =
was a=20
great friend of mine since almost the<BR>first day he posted on the =
now-defunct=20
RV-10 Yahoogroup. I looked forward<BR>to flying with him as we both =
achieved our=20
dreams of what an RV-10 could<BR>bring for us and our families, and it =
crushes=20
my heart to know that the<BR>experience for his children is now =
saddened. Dan=20
was a fine man, who was<BR>friendly to all, and has done a lot to help =
others=20
along the way.<BR>Unfortunately, even good people do bad things, as we =
all know.=20
It's been<BR>said that in any accident, there are many links leading to =
the=20
ultimate<BR>incident, and that by just breaking one of these links, the =
accident=20
could<BR>be prevented. Unfortunately, in this case, there were lots of =
links=20
that<BR>were being built very strongly, some of which may or may not =
have played=20
a<BR>part in the accident. While there will likely be some data =
available=20
from<BR>the EIS and Air-Data computer via his Chelton screens if they =
survived,=20
due<BR>to the lack of direct information in the minutes before the =
crash, and=20
the<BR>very heavy destruction of the aircraft, there is also the chance =
that=20
no<BR>solid determination will ever be made.<BR><BR>From the day Dan =
announced=20
himself, he made lots of friends on the various<BR>lists:<BR><BR>From:=20
flynby_80918<BR>Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 8:41 PM<BR>Subject: =
[RV10]=20
Hello-New uilder<BR><BR>"I wanted to introduce my self. My name is Dan =
Lloyd, I=20
have been building a<BR><BR>7A, and after Oshkosh, my wife and I decided =
to sell=20
the 7 kit and start a<BR>10. I will be ordering the Emp on Wed. I look =
forward=20
to to meeting and<BR>working with you all over the life of this =
project!!<BR>If=20
I can ever be of some help let me know. We are in NW PA, so if you =
are<BR>ever=20
in the area feel free to contact us.<BR>Dan Lloyd"<BR><BR>And shortly =
thereafter=20
he posted his Bio:<BR>"Bio: 34, IT Manager for Werner Ladder, PP-SEL, =
Instrument=20
Student, 150<BR>Hours TT, Cherokee Driver, till 10 is done. Based in =
Hermitage,=20
PA. It is on<BR><BR>the Ohio Border, 1 hour North of PITT. Have 2 Kids, =
11 and=20
6, not adding any<BR><BR>more, (they do not make a larger kit plane!) =
Finishing=20
Emp/Cone, have wings<BR>ready to start. I agree with Tim, seems like a =
lot of=20
geeks are into plane<BR>building, maybe we like the many hours of alone =
time in=20
the garage? "<BR><BR>As time progressed, he was also very happy to get =
from me=20
my original RV-10<BR>wooden model, after I finally got one painted with =
my own=20
paint scheme. He<BR>loved having this thing around.<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/misc/RV200507010122.html">http://www=
.myrv10.com/N104CD/misc/RV200507010122.html</A><BR><BR>Down=20
the road a ways, when we had the big axle extension group buy, you=20
may<BR>remember Dan offered his help for some of the overseas =
people:<BR>"Tim=20
for everyone in Europe and further East I will help with the =
packaging<BR>and=20
sending. Just send me the list of people and I will make sure it =
gets<BR>out to=20
them. I think there was one from Germany, and I do not know how =
many<BR>others,=20
but I can help.<BR>Dan<BR>N289DT "<BR><BR>You get the picture....Dan was =
a guy=20
who was known by lots of people, very<BR>nice to most everyone, and was =
a good=20
participant in the RV-10 family.<BR><BR>When good people do bad=20
things...<BR><BR>Much of my info is from other people who Dan discussed =
some=20
things with more<BR><BR>often than myself. I have always tended to =
express the=20
opinion that care<BR>and safety be used, and to "do it right" to him, to =

encourage him to not do things that could cause him problems. That =
caused him=20
to have a tendency to avoid telling me things he thought would just =
bring him=20
a lecture. That's understandable, but I think he really just didn't =
feel that=20
some things were as risky as they may have been. I always pointed =
out to=20
him though that even though he's heard lots of people have good luck =
with=20
Subaru engines in planes, that his particular installation was a =
first, and=20
he needed to be extra cautious with everything related to his engine. =
Luckily=20
he did tell a few other people his stories though, and I was able to =
observe=20
from a bit of a distance. Dan's first flight occurred =
7/12/2007,=20
and per an email from him to an email list, lasted 40 minutes, =
and said=20
they had "just a few small issues to fix tomorrow" On 7/13/2007 in =
the=20
early a.m. he emailed the group this: "39 hours and 20 minutes to go, =
and if=20
I follow the plan I will make it with a little to spare, but God =
controls=20
the weather.....I think we will make the 40 hours and flying on =
Thursday=20
evening and park at Eggenfellners booth. Dan N289DT Now Flying..=20
" On the 13th, he had added on another hour and a half or so from =
what I=20
had heard from others. By that point they had experienced some high =
oil=20
temps, and I heard talk that they were thinking of flying the =
aircraft down=20
to Jan Eggenfellners shop to work on it before Airventure. Remeber =
that Dan=20
had a completely new iteration of experimental Subaru, with a =
completely new=20
prop, and that caused him to have a 40 hour flyoff requirement, =
so it was=20
a bit shocking to hear that he was contemplating flying to Florida =
right=20
away. The fact that he spent a vast majority of his time in N289DT =
with=20
another person on board wasn't surprising, as he indeed probably did =
need=20
Jan Eggenfellner aboard on many of those flights to help work through =
the=20
issues on the engine. On 7/14/2007 I heard that they =
indeed had=20
left for Florida, and that they planned to be back at KOSH by =
Thursday for=20
the show. The Thursday date did end up slipping, due to delays in =
getting=20
things working, but they did make it to Florida. He did email =
the=20
email list on 7/13, and stated "You have it right a certified combo =
will be=20
25 hours and an uncertified combo is 40 hours --Dan" That =
indicates that=20
he did indeed know the rules about flyoff time as it applies to his =
engine=20
and prop and airframe. On the trip to Florida, I had heard that they=20
experienced the same high oil temps, and had pretty slow cruise =
speeds that=20
were down in the sub-140kt range. They also had experienced some =
strange=20
vibrations that they were unsure of the origin of, and wanted to =
investigate=20
those when they made it to Florida. On I believe 7/14 or =
perhaps 7/15,=20
(for sure by 7/15) Dan emailed or called me, I can't remember which, =
to ask=20
how to disable "bitching betty". He had complained that his alarms =
were=20
annoying him, and wanted to know how to silence it all. I told him =
that once=20
he had finished calibrating his EFIS and alarm setpoints during his =
test=20
flights, they would be in the green most of the time, that he'd not =
be=20
bothered so much. Alarms only go off when you're out of the specified =
green=20
range, so I told him it was up to him to set proper ranges and make =
sure his=20
sensors were setup and calibrated properly so the readings were =
right. But=20
once you did all that, you should not receive many false alarms. I =
realized=20
by talking to him that he had never calibrated ANY of his avionics, =
so=20
headings were off (I had heard by 30 to 70 degrees), engine items =
were=20
alarming all the time and he had issues with chosing to display =
propeller RPM=20
or engine RPM (due to the reduction unit), he had no pitot test, and =
nothing=20
had been debugged much at all. I had heard that on his flight to =
Florida,=20
he had an INOP transponder part of the time, that neither of his 2 =
EFIS=20
systems were working right (because they were never set up), and that =
they=20
navigated to Florida above an undercast with just a handheld 396/496 =
type=20
GPS, which was basically their only operational navigation =
instrumentation.=20
They had decided just to plug their headsets in using some =
alternative method=20
to avoid having to listen to alarms, and had to swap plugs to make =
radio=20
calls. His Autopilot was also non-operational on this trip. It really =
started=20
to worry me that he and Jan Eggenfellner were showing such lack of =
pilot=20
judgement in participating in such a trip. If you look at all the =
popular=20
engine companies like Aerosport, Barret, and all the other good ones, =
how=20
many of those companies do you know that would endorse taking off on =
such a=20
trip after such a short flying experience...even though the engines =
they=20
install and run they have extensive track records with? It was =

apparent to me that he was trying to snow the rest of the =
community into=20
believing he was indeed doing his diligent flyoff time, because he=20
then made a post to the email list saying how he was so very =
tired every=20
day because they had been flying taking turns, sun-up to sundown =
trying to=20
get the 40 hours flown off. He was trying to conjure up the image to =
the=20
public when in fact he had not planned to fly off the 40 hours at all =
before=20
going to OSH. During the time they were in Florida, it sounded from =
reports=20
I heard that they spend most of their time doing things like swapping =
out=20
the gear drive unit (one or more tiems) and attempting cooling =
improvements=20
to get the engine to OSH, and that they actually were flying very=20
little. Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:56 PM To: <A=20
href=3D"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist/post?postID=3DdbXx7jqn=
__0_Xg-lu_9ZITyo1Z5Kk5FOOioC4GLDvKUWp9mVuYB3wQCTCSdmR1wF5b2tPpQVFZo_dkrbC=
n6z">rv10-list at ...</A>=20
&lt;mailto:rv10-list%40matronics.com&gt; Subject: RE: RV10-List: =
Surreal=20
experience realized today... --&gt; RV10-List message posted by: =
"Lloyd,=20
Daniel R." I have been asked by many people for pictures and I =
apologize I=20
forgot to post them. I have been having so much fun flying, and =
falling into=20
bed exhausted every night that I left the camera at the hanger. Jesse =
and=20
John I promise I will post the pics tonight for all to see...as =
long as=20
no one makes fun of the paint or lack there of!!! Dan N289DT =
RV10E=20
Flying Prior to 7/19 I heard a very disturbing comment that I =
can't=20
verify that he also skipped doing a proper Weight and Balance on his =
plane,=20
and that he had simply used MY weight and balance numbers and =
modified=20
them to be roughly what he believed his plane would be. This I though =
was so=20
entirely ridiculous, especially after telling us how much lighter his =

Subaru installation and prop would be, that I had to call in on it. =
So, on=20
7/19 I made a public post, trying to urge him to tell people how his =
W&amp;B=20
had turned out with his Subaru. I had heard that on his flight to =

Florida, they realized in flight that his C.G. was too far aft, based =
on some=20
flying qualities. He planned now to move the battery forward=20
eventually, which was something he did within the day or two before =
his=20
death. His flight that he died on may have actually happend on the =
first=20
flight after moving the battery forward, because on the phone he told =
me he=20
was moving the battery and planned to weigh it and fly it. This is =
not to=20
indicate it as a cause in the crash, but it does both point to =
something he=20
knew needed to be done, and a mechanical task performed just prior to =
the=20
crash. During the days down at Eggenfellners in Florida, I had =
heard that=20
they were also disappointed in the speed that the aircraft flew =
on the=20
way down. They had expected much more with that engine and 4-bladed =
prop.=20
But, when it arrived at OSH they had removed 2 blades from the =
4-bladed=20
propeller and flew it up that way. The engine was also planned to be =
a=20
turbocharged engine, but that turbo hadn't been completed yet so they =
flew it=20
for all of the preliminary flights, and for many weeks after, without =
the=20
turbo. Another interesting happening that was largely un-discussed is =
that on=20
the trip to OSH from Florida, they had a failure of a bracket that =
caused=20
them high oil temps suddenly, grounding them in Kentucky until they =
could=20
get some parts to fabricate a new bracket at a local store. At =
OSH he=20
was making claims that he had something like 48 hours on =
the airplane, and he=20
and Jan Eggenfellner displayed the airplane and engine and tried to =
attract=20
buyers for the engine package. There was no discussion of working =
through=20
issues, but only stories of smoothness and success, as it was =
important to=20
keep the positive image up. They had removed the cowling during the =
show for=20
the whole time because they had quickly put together many cowling =
mods to try=20
to increase cooling and were left with lots of unfinished fiberglass =
edges,=20
and other things that would make it look awful. I had heard, but =
not seen=20
myself, that there were stringers of epoxy covered fiberglass =
cloth that=20
were poking out from various places that were sharp and un-filed =
down, so the=20
cowling was hid away. After OSH, with the problems they had =
experienced,=20
they wanted to work on it some more so instead of heading to=20
Pennsylvania, they flew it back to Florida for the work. It stayed =
down there=20
until sometime in about mid-October, but I don't know the exact date. =
Around=20
10/10 they posted some performance numbers, but by 10/25 the airplane =
was=20
back home with Dan. A video was put out of him departing Florida. =
During the=20
second time in Florida, they did cowling development work, to try to =
fix all=20
the remaining cooling problems and clean up the cosmetics, and =
install a cowl=20
flap. I heard that they got the temperatures much better with the =
redesigned=20
cowl and cowl flap. What struck me as strange though was they hadn't=20
yet installed the turbocharger, and I thought it was strange that =
they would=20
do all that cowling development work prior to getting a turbo =
installed=20
that would definitely affect the cooling requirements. Towards the =
very end=20
of the stay in Florida, the turbo was finally ready, so they =
installed=20
that. They took it for a speed test to 14,000' and compared numbers =
with the=20
ones that had been gathered by Ray and myself on Lycoming equipped =
RV-10's.=20
But, in the process of getting their numbers, they had actually =
destroyed=20
the turbocharger, so they had to do another turbo swap. Incidently, =
I've=20
heard that aircraft turbos are built substantially heavier to handle =
the high=20
duty cycle involved in aircraft power generation, whereas =
automotive=20
turbos have a lower duty cycle....but I'm not sure what the type of =
turbo=20
used on this install was. Of course, the information about the turbo =
being=20
destroyed was not presented along with the numbers, because that =
again would=20
result in more 2nd guessing by would-be interested parties. But, in =
not much=20
time after that, however (within a week or two), Dan was down to pick =
up=20
his plane, and they had a new turbo on it. It was posted on=20
eggenfellners website and still is as of this writing. <A=20
href=3D"http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/News.htm">http://www.eggenfel=
lneraircraft.com/News.htm</A> Interestingly,=20
when they did their speed tests, they took photos of their Chelton's =
as=20
proof, and on the website you can see photos of the Cheltons that =
clearly=20
show that they never did calibrate the AHRS or set up the =
unit. It is=20
still set to display info from a strikefinder, which he did not =
have, the=20
heading is off by 30 degrees or so (I had heard they had =
mis-alignment up to=20
70 degrees), and when you compare the skid ball with the Dynon, =
they do not=20
match at all. When installing avionics of this nature, there is a lot =
of=20
setup and calibration that needs to be done in the airframe =
before flight,=20
and that has to be taken on by the builder. In his case, =
almost nothing was=20
ever done to calibrate any of the systems. At the time, I had also =
questioned=20
the accuracy of the numbers they presented, because if nothing is =
calibrated,=20
how can you guarantee that your speed numbers are accurate? You =
will=20
notice in the photos that the ENGINE and AUX SENSOR alarm flags =
are also=20
going off. I understand that they flew the plane up the busy =
East coast and=20
right over New York City like this to bring it home, stopping =
in Boston on=20
the way back too. He flew it home with a friend of his, so once again =
he had=20
a co-pilot onboard during his flights. This perhaps actually extended =
the=20
amount of time that the RV-10 actually survived, because there were=20
apparently some very workload-intensive things in his airplane, =
the least of=20
which was inaccurate instrumentation. At one point within 2 or 3 =
weeks of=20
his crash, he had called me to tell me he was having problems with =
power vs.=20
RPM control. I was surprised and wondered why, with a constant speed =
prop. I=20
had never dealt with electric propellers before, so it puzzled me why =
he=20
would be having problems. He said it was because they had not yet =
finished=20
designing the prop control unit, so he had to manually make power=20
adjustments, which would change the engine and prop RPM greatly, but =
then=20
with the prop now changing RPM drastically (affecting pitch too) he =
would=20
have to manually move a prop pitch lever to bring the RPM to it's =
desired=20
setting. So every power increase or reduction required a =
corresponding=20
adjustment of the propeller. With this and all the other instrument =
issues,=20
it was really a busy plane to fly, and I can see why you'd want a =

co-pilot along on most flights. It to me seemed very strange that Jan =

Eggenfellner would have him fly home and consider the engine =
"delivered"=20
without such equipment operational. Dan did not have that many hours =
of total=20
time (under 200, and other than the transition training, all lower=20
performance) and flying a slick, fast plane is a handful. Combine =
that with=20
not having calibrated any avionics, hearing alarms going off all the =
time,=20
and the prop control issues, and this plane was much more complex to =
deal=20
with than most planes would be. I know it's "Experimental" aviation, =
so sure,=20
we can play with new things, but Dan wasn't the engine designer...he =
was just=20
the guy stuck with flying such a complex plane. Also along the =
way in=20
the past couple weeks he had emailed to indicate that he thought his =
Chelton=20
wasn't displaying correctly. He said he had indicated 2300 G's =
(G-forces)=20
when flying with his wife, and he emailed a photo. "This =
should make=20
you laugh, I bet your RV10 can't pull 2300G's" Well, of course an =

incorrectly calibrated system won't read properly, and<BR>since I knew =
he still=20
hadn't calibrated things, it didn't surprise me, but<BR>as it turned =
out, he was=20
reading "2300G" which means 2300' AGL GPS Based, as<BR><BR>2300G's. He =
had never=20
really read through any operation manuals for his<BR>avionics. He had in =
the=20
past, complained that on his trip to florida his<BR>Autopilot didn't =
work, and=20
criticized one avionics dealer for not telling<BR>him that he had to =
hook up=20
pitot and static lines to his<BR>Autopilot...something that is a=20
definite<BR>normal part of the autopilot installation per the manual. It =
was=20
very clear<BR>that he hadn't spent much time checking out his =
installation, or=20
reading any<BR><BR>manuals to ensure they were correct.<BR><BR>On 10/25, =
he=20
emailed me this:<BR><BR>"Eww I am an idiot!! I had no clue because =
yesterday I=20
was at 6000ft and it<BR>did the same thing, listing 2330 g's with the =
same=20
reading, and then tumbled<BR><BR>to the right. I am scarred of it and =
that is=20
why I have not been using it.<BR>It is difficult for me to process =
everything it=20
is telling me. I can<BR>understand some of it, but then it starts =
putting up all=20
this other stuff<BR>and it is just easier for me to look out the window =
for now.=20
But I do need<BR>to learn it so I can feel comfortable before I ask an=20
instructor to fly with<BR><BR>me. I called stein and he said it is =
because I=20
have not calibrated it, for<BR>that matter this is the first couple of =
times I=20
have turned it on for<BR>anything. So yes I need to read the manuals and =
build=20
many hours using it<BR>before I get in the clouds. I need allot of help =
to learn=20
all of this stuff<BR>because I am not having a clue on how to do it. =
Definitely=20
a case of money<BR>versus intelligence. But I have to learn it to use =
it. Does=20
that mean I can<BR>come up and get some lessons? Or do you know anyone =
who will=20
teach behind<BR>it? I have been using the Dynon and G496 because they =
are easy.=20
Everything<BR>else is still uncalibrated, including the AP etc. I am =
definitely=20
behind<BR>the power curve on this and need help! And they say that is =
the first=20
step<BR>to recovery, realizing that there is an issue and asking for =
help!=20
-Dan"<BR><BR>That scared the CRAP out of me. Period. I mean, it's one =
thing to=20
know all<BR>of the stuff you just got done reading, but clearly, here =
was a guy=20
who was<BR>not up to speed on the airplane, the avionics, and some other =

comments he'd been heard to make even made me wonder if he didn't =
just need a=20
general pilot refresher. Trying to keep him open to listening, =
I=20
replied back and tried to come across as not lecturing too much, =
knowing that=20
he'd tune me out if I did... I wrote: "You know, what might =
work=20
better for you until you calibrate it, is to get yourself some some =
nice=20
sticky paper or 5x6 post-it notes and write these letters on it. =
"INOP". Then=20
just paste it over your screens. ;) But seriously, you really =
need to=20
just first sit down and read the manuals. Chelton has user manuals on =
your=20
site, and I have them posted on the EFIS forum. Then, there's Keith's =
book=20
that you said you bought....that will give you the more detailed =
stuff for=20
later. And of course, the install guide. That one you'll need if you =
ever=20
want to see things working well enough to trust for navigation. It's =
all in=20
the manuals to start. If this thing were calibrated and working, you =
wouldn't=20
have that feeling that looking out the window is better for you, =
because it=20
would actually work well. &lt;Note that I'm not saying you =
shouldn't=20
look out the window, but you want instruments that work properly to =
make it=20
easy to fly the plane&gt; As far as training goes, Josh the old =
D2A guy=20
does EFIS training and he'd be the absolute best option. He's a =
hired gun=20
who can come out and give training that will set you on the fast =
track=20
quickly. Beyond that, it's really not worth learning until the stuff =
is set=20
up properly. When you come up this way, I can take you out for a =
flight and=20
show you some things too, but really, once it's set up, you'll get =
the basics=20
very quickly from flying and the manuals. All the things that a =
trainer=20
would really be valuable for are the things like flight-planning and=20
approaches, and things like that....but that's way beyond what you =
should be=20
doing with the system until you're A) comfortable, and B) have =
all the=20
stuff working right. You'll find later that it's really a very easy =
system to=20
use, much more so than a 430 or 480. Also, if you have an =
airline=20
pilot friend, they'd be a good victim to bring along, because they =
know the=20
symbolism on the glass pretty well, even though this system has =
more than=20
theirs for features. Don't worry, I only bill $800/hr for my EFIS =

instruction... and I do it in<BR>my own airplane since there's an EFIS =
on both=20
sides. ;)<BR>Tim "<BR><BR>He followed upwith another reply:<BR><BR>"I =
just got=20
off the phone with XXX, and he said it is like trying to drink<BR>from a =
fire=20
hose, and I tend to agree. I need to get my hands around flying<BR>the =
airplane=20
and getting everything calibrated. Then I can sit down and =
read<BR><BR>the=20
complete manuals. I have read the first 4 chapters of the =
Chelton<BR>manuals but=20
that is just basic symbology and the tapes, and those I =
do<BR>understand. IF you=20
take all of my owners manuals and stack them up they are<BR>over 3 feet=20
high!<BR>I am lucky the dynon and 496 are already familiar because I can =
use=20
them to<BR>navigate and get myself out of trouble if absolutely =
necessary.=20
Remember I<BR>have only flown a Cherokee140 for 200 hours, so I am =
learning how=20
to fly<BR>high perf stuff too, I feel more comfortable, but still =
learning the=20
Egg<BR>stuff/ and the variable pitch prop is also more stuff to learn. I =
am=20
getting<BR><BR>there and in a couple of hundred more hours I will maybe =
be ready=20
to start<BR>IFR training again. I have passed the written, and have 10 =
hours=20
towards it,<BR><BR>but with the new plane I can already tell it will be =
time to=20
start over.<BR>Right now I am working on how to slow down and make sure =
I have=20
enough pitch<BR><BR>on the prop for a go around, once that is done, I =
will move=20
up the ladder a<BR>rung and work on additional stuff. Calibration,=20
troubleshooting other<BR>electronics etc is also going on at the same =
time. XXXX=20
and you both say I<BR>have to just laugh at myself and the various =
issues I am=20
having because<BR>everyone has something or another happen. But it just =
seems=20
like lately I am<BR><BR>way out of my comfort zone and clawing my way =
back=20
in.<BR><BR>THX for the guidance and glad I could make you laugh this =
afternoon.=20
"<BR><BR>I had one more follow-up for him:<BR><BR>"No prob. You're =
right,=20
there's a lot of stuff there to learn even without<BR>the avionics. Now =
you see=20
why I say the -10 isn't something I'd recommend<BR>to a basic beginning =
student=20
pilot. It's not a hard plane to fly or land,<BR>but there's more to the =
-10 than=20
a cherokee, and it would be nice to get the<BR><BR>time in a $50K =
cherokee so if=20
you smack it up you don't waste all your cash.<BR><BR>The -10 is high=20
performance, slippery, and there's a LOT going on with the<BR>C/S prop =
and=20
engine stuff. Then, throw in high tech avionics and it's just<BR>too =
much to use=20
as a trainer, as you can see it's a handful with a couple<BR>hundred=20
hours.<BR><BR>I would encourage you to calibrate a.s.a.p. because you =
really=20
will be<BR>hindered in improving skills and having the experience go =
well until=20
that's<BR>done. Things like Bitchin' betty are there for a reason, and =
just=20
flying<BR>without them will not add to the safety. It would be better to =
HAVE=20
the<BR>warnings when they happen, but have them happen appropriately. =
None of=20
it<BR>is that hard to set up, but it all takes time.<BR><BR>I flew =
70-100 hours=20
before I did anything other than normal stuff for the<BR>most part. Just =
take=20
your time.<BR>Tim "<BR><BR>See, I almost feel like a father when I read=20
that....You've got this kid<BR>that you know is doing stupid things, and =
he's=20
not going to listen to a<BR>lecture, but during that one chance when he =
finally=20
comes and asks for help,<BR><BR>you try not to be an ass and come down =
on him,=20
but give him all the<BR>encouraging advice you can. You can tell he was =
in over=20
his head in both<BR>airplane and avionics, because he hadn't taken the =
time to=20
really learn<BR>either, and almost 100% of his flying time up to this =
point was=20
with someone<BR><BR>else in the plane to help keep an eye on things.=20
Unfortunately, it leaves<BR>me feeling guilty that I never just =
strangled him=20
into getting some good<BR>sense and judgement. His statement about his =
comfort=20
zone is very scary<BR>indeed.<BR><BR>On 11/1/2007, the day before his =
crash, Dan=20
emailed me to ask what landing<BR>speeds I use at full gross, and I =
replied to=20
him. Here are some excerpts<BR>along with a follow-up comment from=20
him:<BR><BR>"What speeds do you carry on base and final when at max =
load? I am=20
taking<BR>the family on our first trip and I am being paranoid but this =
is the=20
first<BR>time I have taken more than 1 passenger. So just doing due=20
diligence."<BR><BR>For what it's worth, I wrote:<BR><BR>"I fly pretty =
much every=20
landing the same even with or without passengers.<BR>80-85kts around =
base (keep=20
it below 87kts once the flaps are out) Then once<BR>you get on final =
it's either=20
75Kts on a bumpy, windy day, or a strict 70kts<BR>and no slower if it's=20
relatively smooth out. Just don't let it get below 70<BR>until the =
runway is=20
right under you, and you're in the flare."<BR><BR>And he replied=20
again:<BR><BR>"Good that has been what I have been flying, but I float =
awhile=20
and was<BR>thinking I was carrying to much speed because Mike had us =
carry 70=20
mph on<BR>final, and since I switched to knots I was thinking that was =
my issue,=20
but<BR>until I get allot more comfortable I will bleed the speed over =
the=20
runway,<BR>instead of slowing on the approach, much safer in my mind! =
Going to=20
the<BR>airport to redo W&amp;B after I moved the batteries forward, then =
I get=20
to fly<BR>this afternoon and tomorrow to get ready to take the family to =
Boston=20
on<BR>Saturday! THX for being there for questions, it is always good to =
have=20
a<BR>friend that can double check my thoughts."<BR><BR>That was the last =

communication I had with Dan before I learned of his crash just =
over 12=20
hours later. I had heard prior to this that Dan had really had a hard =
time on=20
landing the plane, having to go-around sometimes multiple times =
before a=20
successful landing. Since he had 10 hours of transition training, =
albeit a=20
few months earlier, I figure it HAD to be because of his extra =
workload with=20
the propeller controls, and his low-time status, because it =
absolutely=20
isn't a hard plane to land. Given the fact that he probably didn't =
even have=20
5 hours in his airplane as a sole-occupant though, it is easy to see =
how he=20
actually was able to put on some hours without incident before=20
this. All of the above comes from either conversations I've had =
with him,=20
or other people had with him and passed on. Much of it is second =
hand,=20
but to me, all of it indicates a pilot and engine builder who spent =
all their=20
time rushing to complete an install to display at OSH, and they would =
be=20
willing to break just about any rule to accomplish that. Then, =
throughout=20
the process, there was a pilot who was in way over his head with a =
very=20
much more complex mess of an airplane than anyone else had =
flown. It's=20
extremely sad and hard for me to say, but I saw it as a =
completely expected=20
conclusion that some day he would end up in a smoking hole in =
the ground, and=20
in fact the night before, when we heard he was taking his =
family to=20
Boston, at home we said that we needed to pray for his family if he =
was going=20
to take them for a flight. Why would someone who just very =
recently described=20
his flying the -10 as "scary", be now racing to share the experience =
with his=20
family before he truly felt comfortable? It truly distrubs me that I =
could=20
see the end coming so clearly from back as far as a week or two =
before=20
OSH. As I talked to him and learned more and more of the above info, =
and many=20
more things that I can't even remember at this time, it was =
readily=20
apparent that no matter how nice, friendly, and capable Dan was as a =
member=20
of the RV-10 building community, he had a serious lack of caution =
about=20
flying his Eggenfellner Subaru, and very poor judgement about his =
piloting in=20
general. He was my worst fear for our RV-10 world...someone who would =
not=20
only bring insurance issues, and a negative image of =
homebuilt aircraft,=20
but someone who would kill himself doing it. From the best I can =
tell,=20
Dan's experience was likely under 20 or 25 hours even IN his =
airplane, with=20
the other hours (I heard he claimed an actual of about 78 hours on =
the=20
airframe very near the time of the crash) being flown with a=20
co-pilot....usually Jan Eggenfellner, who accompanied him on =
his first and=20
many subsequent flights. When one other builder stated to him during =
the time=20
period when he was flying down to Florida after only a couple days =
since his=20
his first flight, "Dan, there's no way you could have completed your =
flyoff=20
yet." Dan's response was "That's not what the logbooks say". It seems =
he=20
didn't understand and appreciate quite how experimental his plane =
really was.=20
There were at the time of the crash over 110 other flying RV-10's =
with=20
standard engines, and no fatalities. It's a fantastically smooth =
flying and=20
stable airframe, that has no intrinsic negative flying qualities. The =
only=20
thing it has that can get a pilot in trouble is a slick airframe, a =
constant=20
speed prop for complexity, and a fast trim system at high=20
speed. Please read the above and understand that it is not at all =
my=20
intent to disparage Dan as a person. I think we're all mature enough =
to=20
understand that a person can be a good person, but still have some =
negative=20
traits. I just see this as a case of poor judgement leading to his =
own death.=20
Also, in regards to being a Subaru equipped plane, I don't feel that =
a=20
Subaru necessarily has to result in a lot of added risk in flying =
either.=20
Even dead engines shouldn't make dead pilots in almost all =
circumstances.=20
There is no reason why a choice of a Subaru should have to mean he =
was more=20
likely to actually die in his plane. I do think though, that when =
you=20
consider the above information, it doesn't speak well to the engine =
vendor in=20
particular, regardless of if the engine was a factor in the =
crash. To=20
release to a low-time pilot, an engine which less than 3 weeks prior =
had just=20
had it's first flight with a turbocharger, and have it fail at that =
time too,=20
really puts that pilot at risk. Add to the fact that the prop =
controller=20
wasn't completed and the complexity it causes, and it's clear that =
the=20
engine developer didn't always do things in the best interest of the=20
customer. There are things that should be debugged by the builder, =
and things=20
that are best left to the engine developer. Dan was not an engine =

builder. He bought an engine package, and thus he should be able to =
expect=20
that the package wouldn't be given to him until some of the major =
things had=20
been operational and tested. I'm sure knowing Dan that he insisted =
that he=20
could handle flying it before it was tried and true, but a cautious =
and=20
careful engine company would insist on safety first, and wouldn't =
have taken=20
part in some of the highly risky activitiy. Hopefully this =
info=20
can help put to rest some of the worries that many have been =
contacting me=20
with. Your wives will benefit from the story too, because when you =
care=20
enough to show them this info to ease their nerves, they will have a =
very=20
good outside look at YOU as a builder and can help be your conscience =
as you=20
move forward. Are you rushing things? Are you willing to take all the =

necessary safety steps? Are you going to be responsible enough to get =

transition training and be current before flying your airplane alone? =
Even=20
the most non-aeronautical wife will quickly know if you match some of =
the=20
negative traits described here. If so, take a good introspective look =
at=20
yourself before you go too far. Remember, Dan is also the one who =
said that=20
he felt he could set the gross weight anywhere he pleased, as long as =
he=20
tested it. Are you really that cavalier about things? Build =
safe, fly=20
safe, and maintain to high safety=20
standards!<o:p></o:p></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_023F_01C883AF.0FB75E10--