REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging

Ron Brown romott at mi-connection.com
Thu Jul 17 06:50:18 CDT 2008 

Joe, I have sold my Velocity and the manuals went with it.

I will try to get this info from the new owner later.

One thing to remember about the "heavier aileron" is that the up aileron 
doesn't see nearly the air pressure-force that the down elevator does.

Ronnie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <jewen at comporium.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging


> Hi Ronnie,
>
> Can you provide a bit more info about the up/down relationship.  How much 
> more up aileron than down?
> I have drafted and measured the effect of various approach angles and can 
> see the relationship of up/down can be controlled by the approach angle to 
> the end of the bellcrank and the relationship of the cable end to the 
> pivot point.  A trade off is heavier aileron actuation as the approach 
> angle to the end of the bellcrank moves further from 90 degrees 
> (perpendicular to the torque arm of the bellcrank.)  Knowing the optimum 
> (or duplicating your angles) would be helpful.
>
> I worked with angular displacement knowing that the linear measurement of 
> 2.5 up and 2.5 down would be proportional to the angular movement.  That 
> said, I was able to find a range that did give more angular displacement 
> than the factory position without moving the attach point closer to the 
> pivot that had more up than down aileron.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
>
> ---- Original message ----
>>Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:31:37 -0400
>>From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>
>>The following is for non -5 Velocities (the -5 has a better arrangement at
>>the keel - the cable housings attach at nearly 90 degrees to the bell 
>>crank
>>on the cut down keel) :
>>
>>My problem started when I tried to install my aileron cables and bell 
>>cranks
>>per the manual. It is impossible to obtain equal up and down travel with 
>>the
>>cable attach installed at the keel per the manual.  The cable housing does
>>not attach at a 90 degree angle to the bell crank - therefore you cannot 
>>get
>>equal up and down travel from the neutral position.  Dave Black (where are
>>you Dave, haven't heard from you lately?)  figured out the problem.
>>
>>And when I was building, folks were complaining about their Velocities
>>wallowing on final while at less than 100 knots. This wallowing is a 
>>symptom
>>of adverse yaw (read my earlier note).  So I decided to fix the problem -
>>hence the more UP travel than DOWN travel.  As with a Cessna, I can pretty
>>much keep my feet on the floor all the way down to the runway.  If it is
>>gusty, I will use rudder to aid the rudders in speeding up roll rates at 
>>low
>>airspeed.
>>
>>Ronnie
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Andrew Ellzey" <ajlz72756 at yahoo.com>
>>To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:30 AM
>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>
>>
>>> Keith,
>>> The drill location and aileron rigging are different if you have the cut
>>> down keel option or if you bought the complete -5 option with your kit.
>>> I'm not sure why you are wanting more up travel than down travel, and 
>>> not
>>> just following the manual. I have the cut down keel option, so my bell
>>> cranks point down instead on up on the standard keel. My wings are
>>> complete, and I was able to rig my bell crank at 90 degrees and I have
>>> equal travel up and down per the manual. I haven't drilled the holes in
>>> the firewall for my control cables yet, but it is obvious that it will 
>>> be
>>> about 1 inch under the the spar per the plans. There is a kcp that gives
>>> this information, It wasn't in the manual at the time I bought my kit.
>>> The -5 option had just come out. If you are interested and you do have 
>>> the
>>> cut down keel option I can send you some pictures. If you don't have the
>>> cut down keel option, sorry that I muddied the water. I know that there
>>> are aircraft that are
>>> designed with differential aileron rigging (Mooney's) but I would talk 
>>> to
>>> the factory before I changed the design of your control surface 
>>> operation.
>>> My thoughts, not trying to step on any toes. This is your life.
>>>
>>> Andy Ellzey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Keith Hallsten <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:50:21 PM
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>
>>> Ronnie,
>>>
>>> You drilled through the spar web for a hole to run the aileron cables
>>> through? I'm sure the cables in my XL run entirely below the spar.
>>>
>>> Keith Hallsten
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Ron Brown
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:03 AM
>>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>
>>> No, the cable comes out just above the lower spar cap. If you get too 
>>> low,
>>> you'll have problems making the transition back to the keel bracket.
>>>
>>> Ronnie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:13 PM
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks Ron! I appreciate the info. Apparently, the cables penetrate
>>>> the
>>>> firewall below the lower spar cap?
>>>> Gordon
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:37 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, my changes did result in more up than down aileron travel. I 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> the measurements since I gave the new owner all of my manuals and 
>>>>> paper
>>>>> notes.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have attached two pictures that show the aileron in the up and down
>>>>> positions. The 1/4" socket extension clamped to the inverted aileron
>>>>> cable
>>>>> brackets approximate the revised location of the aileron control 
>>>>> cables
>>>>> when
>>>>> attached.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ronnie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
>>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:49 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron, did your change result in 2.5" down and up? I want to do this
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> as well and would appreciate some numbers on your actual final
>>>>>> measurements.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Gordon Putney
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>>>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From my RC modeling days, I learned that to minimize adverse yaw, 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ailerons should go up more than they go down. Although we have 
>>>>>>> Frieze
>>>>>>> ailerons (the nose sticks down when the aileron is up), there is 
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> tendency toward adverse yaw. Especially since the attach point for 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> aileron cables at the back of the keel is not 90 degrees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, to improve the situation, I installed my aileron bell cranks
>>>>>>> beside
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> engine with a good bit of bias toward the front. I also lowered the
>>>>>>> attach
>>>>>>> point for the aileron cable jacket. This helps relieve the "error" 
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> keel as well as move the bellcranks away from the engine (but your
>>>>>>> rotary
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> narrower than the Lycoming so not an issue). The aileron bell crank 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> like 90 degrees to the cable when the aileron is down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's a note that I wrote in 2003 that is repetitive but adds some
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> info:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I rigged my ailerons, I found it difficult to obtain the equal
>>>>>>> 2.5"
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> and 2.5" down that is called for in the manuals - for my 173 Elite 
>>>>>>> RG.
>>>>>>> Since the push/pull cables at the rear of the keel do not have a 90
>>>>>>> degree
>>>>>>> approach angle, the connection of the push/pull cable at the aileron
>>>>>>> torque
>>>>>>> tube on the wing, results in ailerons that travel down more than 
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>> This causes an adverse yaw condition which will lead to wallowing at
>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>> speeds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I learned this lesson a long time ago when flying RC models. If you
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> off at just above stall speed, the model would turn the opposite
>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>> from that commanded. This is because the aileron that is going down
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> more drag than the one going up. This causes the left wing to slow
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you are commanding a right turn at slow speeds. This is called 
>>>>>>> adverse
>>>>>>> yaw
>>>>>>> and is common in older airplanes. To get a coordinated turn, even at
>>>>>>> speed,
>>>>>>> you need to lead with a lot of rudder before applying aileron
>>>>>>> deflection.
>>>>>>> Or, you rig the ailerons so that there is more up travel than there 
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>> travel, which will reduce this yaw effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cessnas and some other planes (including our Velocities) have a 
>>>>>>> Frieze
>>>>>>> aileron, which features a lip that hangs down below the wing when 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> aileron is deflected upwards. This helps balance the drag from the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> aileron which is hanging down in the airstream.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Velocities handle fine at higher speeds even with no rudder input. 
>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> lower speeds, if the ailerons are rigged with the 90 degree approach
>>>>>>> angle
>>>>>>> at the wing, then this results in more down than up aileron travel,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> adverse yaw condition that some folks have called "wallowing" on
>>>>>>> final.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A while back, Dave Black pointed out the problem at the keel. One 
>>>>>>> fix
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> build a wide bellcrank at the back of the keel so that the aileron
>>>>>>> cables
>>>>>>> could be attached at a 90 degree approach angle while in the neutral
>>>>>>> (centered) condition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other way is to attach the aileron cable at the wing so that the
>>>>>>> approach angle is more than 90 degrees. Mine are attached at about 
>>>>>>> 120
>>>>>>> degrees, which results in more up travel than down travel. My 
>>>>>>> Velocity
>>>>>>> handles fine at low speeds, with just aileron control, similar to my
>>>>>>> Cessna
>>>>>>> 172. If I need a sharper turn, I'll kick in more rudder, just like 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> 172. But normally, no rudder is needed, all the way down to the
>>>>>>> runway.
>>>>>>> (But I also installed VG's before my first flight, these also 
>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>> speed aileron control).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ronnie Brown
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>> From: <jewen at comporium.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" 
>>>>>>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:42 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am rigging up my aileron this weekend (173RG.) I recall several
>>>>>>>>threads
>>>>>>>>on the subject in the past, but can't find my notes. Does anyone 
>>>>>>>>mind
>>>>>>>>refreshing me on the nuances that the manual does not address.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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