REFLECTOR: History
Ron Brown
romott at mi-connection.com
Thu Jul 10 15:35:21 CDT 2008
Jon,
There is a pretty good history of the Velocities at Brett's excellent web
site http://n44vf.velocityxl.com/velocity_history.php
The Velocities are great aircraft - and it all started with the Std that
Danny, Duane and Scott created!
Ronnie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Bachman" <jbachman at zianet.com>
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> I'm not building (purchased built) but own a Std RG and would like to be
> able to read about my Velo's "vintage".
>
> Jon Bachman
> N956DR
> Std RG
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of doug.holub at tx.rr.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:15 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Cc: Ron Brown
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>
> My plans (1987 Standard FG) call for the aileron cables to go under the
> spar, but I found that the geometry worked out better and there was a
> larger
> turning radius if I ran the cables above the baggage compartment and over
> the spar. My bell crank points straight up and there's a lovely 90 degree
> angle there.
>
> Is there anybody here on the Reflector building an old standard top door
> fuselage? If not, I'll quit posting stuff that only applies to that
> vintage
> because nobody probably cares.
>
> Doug Holub
> plane is at the airport!
> ---- Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com> wrote:
>> Well, look at http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLR.pdf - the
> XLRG
>> goes through the middle of the spar web.
>>
>> There appears to be a number of ways to install the aileron controls. My
>> paper manual that came with the kit in 1999 showed the cable going
>> through
>
>> the firewall and to the aileron bracket pretty much horizontal. This
> causes
>> the aileron bell crank to come within a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the valve
> covers
>> when the aileron is down - too close for comfort! The new manuals have
> the
>> cable housing coming in from a lower position and hence the bell crank
>> doesn't travel as close to the valve covers. My installation provides
> much
>> better clearance from the valve covers.
>>
>> Ronnie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brett Ferrell" <reflector at velocityxl.com>
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Cc: <romott at mi-connection.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>
>>
>> > Ronnie,
>> >
>> > That's actually not correct, the current (at least fixed-gear) XL
>> > manual
>
>> > says to drill just below the spar.
>> > http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLF.pdf
>> >
>> > Brett
>> >
>> >
>> >> -------Original Message-------
>> >> From: Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> Sent: 10 Jul '08 07:13
>> >>
>> >> The manual calls for going through the middle part of the web - for
> both
>> >> the
>> >> XL and Std (mine is a 173 RG).
>> >>
>> >> As I mentioned, I relocated mine to the lower part of the web. The
>> >> web
>
>> >> is
>> >> rather thin - only one or perhaps two plies of BID.
>> >>
>> >> Ronnie
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Keith Hallsten" <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
>> >> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:50 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Ronnie,
>> >> >
>> >> > You drilled through the spar web for a hole to run the aileron
> cables
>> >> > through? I'm sure the cables in my XL run entirely below the spar.
>> >> >
>> >> > Keith Hallsten
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>> >> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
>
>> >> On
>> >> > Behalf Of Ron Brown
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:03 AM
>> >> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> >
>> >> > No, the cable comes out just above the lower spar cap. If you get
> too
>> >> > low,
>> >> > you'll have problems making the transition back to the keel
>> >> bracket.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ronnie
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
>> >> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:13 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Thanks Ron! I appreciate the info. Apparently, the cables
>> >> penetrate
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> firewall below the lower spar cap?
>> >> >> Gordon
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>> >> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:37 AM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Yes, my changes did result in more up than down aileron travel. I
>> >> don't
>> >> >>> have
>> >> >>> the measurements since I gave the new owner all of my manuals and
>> >> paper
>> >> >>> notes.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have attached two pictures that show the aileron in the up and
>> >> down
>> >> >>> positions. The 1/4" socket extension clamped to the inverted
>> >> aileron
>> >> >>> cable
>> >> >>> brackets approximate the revised location of the aileron control
>> >> cables
>> >> >>> when
>> >> >>> attached.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Ronnie
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
>> >> >>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:49 PM
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Ron, did your change result in 2.5" down and up? I want to do
>> >> this
>> >> >>>> change
>> >> >>>> as well and would appreciate some numbers on your actual final
>> >> >>>> measurements.
>> >> >>>> Thanks,
>> >> >>>> Gordon Putney
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>> >> >>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:13 PM
>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>> Hi Joe,
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> From my RC modeling days, I learned that to minimize adverse
> yaw,
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>> ailerons should go up more than they go down. Although we have
>> >> Frieze
>> >> >>>>> ailerons (the nose sticks down when the aileron is up), there
>> >> is
>
>> >> still
>> >> >>>>> a
>> >> >>>>> tendency toward adverse yaw. Especially since the attach point
>> >> for
>> >> >>>>> the
>> >> >>>>> aileron cables at the back of the keel is not 90 degrees.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> So, to improve the situation, I installed my aileron bell
>> >> cranks
>> >> >>>>> beside
>> >> >>>>> the
>> >> >>>>> engine with a good bit of bias toward the front. I also
>> >> lowered
>
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>> attach
>> >> >>>>> point for the aileron cable jacket. This helps relieve the
>> >> "error" at
>> >> >>>>> the
>> >> >>>>> keel as well as move the bellcranks away from the engine (but
> your
>> >> >>>>> rotary
>> >> >>>>> is
>> >> >>>>> narrower than the Lycoming so not an issue). The aileron bell
>> >> crank
>> >> >>>>> is
>> >> >>>>> more
>> >> >>>>> like 90 degrees to the cable when the aileron is down.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Here's a note that I wrote in 2003 that is repetitive but adds
>> >> some
>> >> >>>>> more
>> >> >>>>> info:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> When I rigged my ailerons, I found it difficult to obtain the
>> >> equal
>> >> >>>>> 2.5"
>> >> >>>>> up
>> >> >>>>> and 2.5" down that is called for in the manuals - for my 173
> Elite
>> >> RG.
>> >> >>>>> Since the push/pull cables at the rear of the keel do not have
>> >> a
>
>> >> 90
>> >> >>>>> degree
>> >> >>>>> approach angle, the connection of the push/pull cable at the
>> >> aileron
>> >> >>>>> torque
>> >> >>>>> tube on the wing, results in ailerons that travel down more
>> >> than
>
>> >> they
>> >> >>>>> do
>> >> >>>>> up.
>> >> >>>>> This causes an adverse yaw condition which will lead to
> wallowing
>> >> at
>> >> >>>>> low
>> >> >>>>> speeds.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I learned this lesson a long time ago when flying RC models.
>> >> If
>
>> >> you
>> >> >>>>> take
>> >> >>>>> off at just above stall speed, the model would turn the
>> >> opposite
>> >> >>>>> direction
>> >> >>>>> from that commanded. This is because the aileron that is going
>> >> down
>> >> >>>>> has
>> >> >>>>> more drag than the one going up. This causes the left wing to
> slow
>> >> >>>>> down
>> >> >>>>> if
>> >> >>>>> you are commanding a right turn at slow speeds. This is called
>> >> >>>>> adverse
>> >> >>>>> yaw
>> >> >>>>> and is common in older airplanes. To get a coordinated turn,
> even
>> >> at
>> >> >>>>> speed,
>> >> >>>>> you need to lead with a lot of rudder before applying aileron
>> >> >>>>> deflection.
>> >> >>>>> Or, you rig the ailerons so that there is more up travel than
>> >> there is
>> >> >>>>> down
>> >> >>>>> travel, which will reduce this yaw effect.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Cessnas and some other planes (including our Velocities) have a
>> >> Frieze
>> >> >>>>> aileron, which features a lip that hangs down below the wing
> when
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>> aileron is deflected upwards. This helps balance the drag from
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>> other
>> >> >>>>> aileron which is hanging down in the airstream.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Velocities handle fine at higher speeds even with no rudder
> input.
>> >> >>>>> But
>> >> >>>>> at
>> >> >>>>> lower speeds, if the ailerons are rigged with the 90 degree
>> >> approach
>> >> >>>>> angle
>> >> >>>>> at the wing, then this results in more down than up aileron
>> >> travel,
>> >> >>>>> and
>> >> >>>>> the
>> >> >>>>> adverse yaw condition that some folks have called "wallowing"
>> >> on
>> >> >>>>> final.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> A while back, Dave Black pointed out the problem at the keel.
> One
>> >> fix
>> >> >>>>> is
>> >> >>>>> to
>> >> >>>>> build a wide bellcrank at the back of the keel so that the
> aileron
>> >> >>>>> cables
>> >> >>>>> could be attached at a 90 degree approach angle while in the
>> >> neutral
>> >> >>>>> (centered) condition.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> The other way is to attach the aileron cable at the wing so
>> >> that
>
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>> approach angle is more than 90 degrees. Mine are attached at
>> >> about
>> >> >>>>> 120
>> >> >>>>> degrees, which results in more up travel than down travel. My
>> >> >>>>> Velocity
>> >> >>>>> handles fine at low speeds, with just aileron control, similar
> to
>> >> my
>> >> >>>>> Cessna
>> >> >>>>> 172. If I need a sharper turn, I'll kick in more rudder, just
>> >> like in
>> >> >>>>> my
>> >> >>>>> 172. But normally, no rudder is needed, all the way down to
>> >> the
>> >> >>>>> runway.
>> >> >>>>> (But I also installed VG's before my first flight, these also
>> >> improve
>> >> >>>>> low
>> >> >>>>> speed aileron control).
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Ronnie Brown
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>>>> From: <jewen at comporium.net>
>> >> >>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:42 AM
>> >> >>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>I am rigging up my aileron this weekend (173RG.) I recall
> several
>> >> >>>>>>threads
>> >> >>>>>>on the subject in the past, but can't find my notes. Does
> anyone
>> >> mind
>> >> >>>>>>refreshing me on the nuances that the manual does not address.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >> >>>>>> Joe
>> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>>> To change your email address, visit
>> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> >>>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> >>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> >>>>>> Check old archives:
>> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>>> To change your email address, visit
>> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> >>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> >>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> >>>>> Check old archives:
>> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>>> To change your email address, visit
>> >> >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> >>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> >>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> >>>> Check old archives:
>> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > ----
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >>> To change your email address, visit
>> >> >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> >>> Check old archives:
>> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> To change your email address, visit
>> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> >> Check old archives:
>> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > To change your email address, visit
>> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >
>> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> > Check old archives:
>> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > To change your email address, visit
>> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >> >
>> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> > Check old archives:
>> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> To change your email address, visit
>> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >>
>> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> >> Check old archives:
> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>>
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > To change your email address, visit
>> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >
>> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
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