REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
doug.holub at tx.rr.com
doug.holub at tx.rr.com
Thu Jul 10 12:15:00 CDT 2008
My plans (1987 Standard FG) call for the aileron cables to go under the spar, but I found that the geometry worked out better and there was a larger turning radius if I ran the cables above the baggage compartment and over the spar. My bell crank points straight up and there's a lovely 90 degree angle there.
Is there anybody here on the Reflector building an old standard top door fuselage? If not, I'll quit posting stuff that only applies to that vintage because nobody probably cares.
Doug Holub
plane is at the airport!
---- Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com> wrote:
> Well, look at http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLR.pdf - the XLRG
> goes through the middle of the spar web.
>
> There appears to be a number of ways to install the aileron controls. My
> paper manual that came with the kit in 1999 showed the cable going through
> the firewall and to the aileron bracket pretty much horizontal. This causes
> the aileron bell crank to come within a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the valve covers
> when the aileron is down - too close for comfort! The new manuals have the
> cable housing coming in from a lower position and hence the bell crank
> doesn't travel as close to the valve covers. My installation provides much
> better clearance from the valve covers.
>
> Ronnie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brett Ferrell" <reflector at velocityxl.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Cc: <romott at mi-connection.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>
>
> > Ronnie,
> >
> > That's actually not correct, the current (at least fixed-gear) XL manual
> > says to drill just below the spar.
> > http://www.velocityaircraft.com/manuals/10_XLF.pdf
> >
> > Brett
> >
> >
> >> -------Original Message-------
> >> From: Ron Brown <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> Sent: 10 Jul '08 07:13
> >>
> >> The manual calls for going through the middle part of the web - for both
> >> the
> >> XL and Std (mine is a 173 RG).
> >>
> >> As I mentioned, I relocated mine to the lower part of the web. The web
> >> is
> >> rather thin - only one or perhaps two plies of BID.
> >>
> >> Ronnie
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Keith Hallsten" <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
> >> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:50 AM
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ronnie,
> >> >
> >> > You drilled through the spar web for a hole to run the aileron cables
> >> > through? I'm sure the cables in my XL run entirely below the spar.
> >> >
> >> > Keith Hallsten
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
> >> On
> >> > Behalf Of Ron Brown
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:03 AM
> >> > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >
> >> > No, the cable comes out just above the lower spar cap. If you get too
> >> > low,
> >> > you'll have problems making the transition back to the keel bracket.
> >> >
> >> > Ronnie
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
> >> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:13 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks Ron! I appreciate the info. Apparently, the cables
> >> penetrate
> >> >> the
> >> >> firewall below the lower spar cap?
> >> >> Gordon
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:37 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, my changes did result in more up than down aileron travel. I
> >> don't
> >> >>> have
> >> >>> the measurements since I gave the new owner all of my manuals and
> >> paper
> >> >>> notes.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have attached two pictures that show the aileron in the up and
> >> down
> >> >>> positions. The 1/4" socket extension clamped to the inverted
> >> aileron
> >> >>> cable
> >> >>> brackets approximate the revised location of the aileron control
> >> cables
> >> >>> when
> >> >>> attached.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ronnie
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
> >> >>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:49 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Ron, did your change result in 2.5" down and up? I want to do
> >> this
> >> >>>> change
> >> >>>> as well and would appreciate some numbers on your actual final
> >> >>>> measurements.
> >> >>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>> Gordon Putney
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
> >> >>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:13 PM
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Hi Joe,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> From my RC modeling days, I learned that to minimize adverse yaw,
> >> the
> >> >>>>> ailerons should go up more than they go down. Although we have
> >> Frieze
> >> >>>>> ailerons (the nose sticks down when the aileron is up), there is
> >> still
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> tendency toward adverse yaw. Especially since the attach point
> >> for
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> aileron cables at the back of the keel is not 90 degrees.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> So, to improve the situation, I installed my aileron bell cranks
> >> >>>>> beside
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> engine with a good bit of bias toward the front. I also lowered
> >> the
> >> >>>>> attach
> >> >>>>> point for the aileron cable jacket. This helps relieve the
> >> "error" at
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> keel as well as move the bellcranks away from the engine (but your
> >> >>>>> rotary
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> narrower than the Lycoming so not an issue). The aileron bell
> >> crank
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> more
> >> >>>>> like 90 degrees to the cable when the aileron is down.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Here's a note that I wrote in 2003 that is repetitive but adds
> >> some
> >> >>>>> more
> >> >>>>> info:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> When I rigged my ailerons, I found it difficult to obtain the
> >> equal
> >> >>>>> 2.5"
> >> >>>>> up
> >> >>>>> and 2.5" down that is called for in the manuals - for my 173 Elite
> >> RG.
> >> >>>>> Since the push/pull cables at the rear of the keel do not have a
> >> 90
> >> >>>>> degree
> >> >>>>> approach angle, the connection of the push/pull cable at the
> >> aileron
> >> >>>>> torque
> >> >>>>> tube on the wing, results in ailerons that travel down more than
> >> they
> >> >>>>> do
> >> >>>>> up.
> >> >>>>> This causes an adverse yaw condition which will lead to wallowing
> >> at
> >> >>>>> low
> >> >>>>> speeds.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I learned this lesson a long time ago when flying RC models. If
> >> you
> >> >>>>> take
> >> >>>>> off at just above stall speed, the model would turn the opposite
> >> >>>>> direction
> >> >>>>> from that commanded. This is because the aileron that is going
> >> down
> >> >>>>> has
> >> >>>>> more drag than the one going up. This causes the left wing to slow
> >> >>>>> down
> >> >>>>> if
> >> >>>>> you are commanding a right turn at slow speeds. This is called
> >> >>>>> adverse
> >> >>>>> yaw
> >> >>>>> and is common in older airplanes. To get a coordinated turn, even
> >> at
> >> >>>>> speed,
> >> >>>>> you need to lead with a lot of rudder before applying aileron
> >> >>>>> deflection.
> >> >>>>> Or, you rig the ailerons so that there is more up travel than
> >> there is
> >> >>>>> down
> >> >>>>> travel, which will reduce this yaw effect.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Cessnas and some other planes (including our Velocities) have a
> >> Frieze
> >> >>>>> aileron, which features a lip that hangs down below the wing when
> >> the
> >> >>>>> aileron is deflected upwards. This helps balance the drag from
> >> the
> >> >>>>> other
> >> >>>>> aileron which is hanging down in the airstream.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Velocities handle fine at higher speeds even with no rudder input.
> >> >>>>> But
> >> >>>>> at
> >> >>>>> lower speeds, if the ailerons are rigged with the 90 degree
> >> approach
> >> >>>>> angle
> >> >>>>> at the wing, then this results in more down than up aileron
> >> travel,
> >> >>>>> and
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>> adverse yaw condition that some folks have called "wallowing" on
> >> >>>>> final.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> A while back, Dave Black pointed out the problem at the keel. One
> >> fix
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> to
> >> >>>>> build a wide bellcrank at the back of the keel so that the aileron
> >> >>>>> cables
> >> >>>>> could be attached at a 90 degree approach angle while in the
> >> neutral
> >> >>>>> (centered) condition.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> The other way is to attach the aileron cable at the wing so that
> >> the
> >> >>>>> approach angle is more than 90 degrees. Mine are attached at
> >> about
> >> >>>>> 120
> >> >>>>> degrees, which results in more up travel than down travel. My
> >> >>>>> Velocity
> >> >>>>> handles fine at low speeds, with just aileron control, similar to
> >> my
> >> >>>>> Cessna
> >> >>>>> 172. If I need a sharper turn, I'll kick in more rudder, just
> >> like in
> >> >>>>> my
> >> >>>>> 172. But normally, no rudder is needed, all the way down to the
> >> >>>>> runway.
> >> >>>>> (But I also installed VG's before my first flight, these also
> >> improve
> >> >>>>> low
> >> >>>>> speed aileron control).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ronnie Brown
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>>> From: <jewen at comporium.net>
> >> >>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:42 AM
> >> >>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>I am rigging up my aileron this weekend (173RG.) I recall several
> >> >>>>>>threads
> >> >>>>>>on the subject in the past, but can't find my notes. Does anyone
> >> mind
> >> >>>>>>refreshing me on the nuances that the manual does not address.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >>>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>>>>> Check old archives:
> >> >>>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> >>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> >>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>>>> Check old archives:
> >> >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>>> Check old archives:
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> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ----
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> To change your email address, visit
> >> >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >>> Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> To change your email address, visit
> >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >>
> >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> >> Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >
> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
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> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> > Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > To change your email address, visit
> >> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >> >
> >> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> > Check old archives:
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> To change your email address, visit
> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >>
> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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