REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging

Thu Jul 10 10:06:26 CDT 2008

Ah ( forgot about this), yes and to get full travel I had to drill a new 
hole in the aileron bellcrank about 3/8" to 1/2" closer to the pivot point. 
You'll have a difficult time getting 2.5 up and 2.5" down without these new 
holes.

Ronnie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Miles" <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging

> Ron,
> Right on, bro.  I am with you.  ...and thank for your previous about 
> adverse
> yaw.  In my XL as well, I could not get full aileron displacement as the
> flight controls were rigged.  It's close, but not full.
> Terry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Ron Brown
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:32 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>
> The following is for non -5 Velocities (the -5 has a better arrangement at
> the keel - the cable housings attach at nearly 90 degrees to the bell 
> crank
> on the cut down keel) :
>
> My problem started when I tried to install my aileron cables and bell 
> cranks
>
> per the manual. It is impossible to obtain equal up and down travel with 
> the
>
> cable attach installed at the keel per the manual.  The cable housing does
> not attach at a 90 degree angle to the bell crank - therefore you cannot 
> get
>
> equal up and down travel from the neutral position.  Dave Black (where are
> you Dave, haven't heard from you lately?)  figured out the problem.
>
> And when I was building, folks were complaining about their Velocities
> wallowing on final while at less than 100 knots. This wallowing is a 
> symptom
>
> of adverse yaw (read my earlier note).  So I decided to fix the problem -
> hence the more UP travel than DOWN travel.  As with a Cessna, I can pretty
> much keep my feet on the floor all the way down to the runway.  If it is
> gusty, I will use rudder to aid the rudders in speeding up roll rates at 
> low
>
> airspeed.
>
> Ronnie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrew Ellzey" <ajlz72756 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>
>
>> Keith,
>> The drill location and aileron rigging are different if you have the cut
>> down keel option or if you bought the complete -5 option with your kit.
>> I'm not sure why you are wanting more up travel than down travel, and not
>> just following the manual. I have the cut down keel option, so my bell
>> cranks point down instead on up on the standard keel. My wings are
>> complete, and I was able to rig my bell crank at 90 degrees and I have
>> equal travel up and down per the manual. I haven't drilled the holes in
>> the firewall for my control cables yet, but it is obvious that it will be
>> about 1 inch under the the spar per the plans. There is a kcp that gives
>> this information, It wasn't in the manual at the time I bought my kit.
>> The -5 option had just come out. If you are interested and you do have 
>> the
>
>> cut down keel option I can send you some pictures. If you don't have the
>> cut down keel option, sorry that I muddied the water. I know that there
>> are aircraft that are
>> designed with differential aileron rigging (Mooney's) but I would talk to
>> the factory before I changed the design of your control surface 
>> operation.
>
>> My thoughts, not trying to step on any toes. This is your life.
>>
>> Andy Ellzey
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Keith Hallsten <KeithHallsten at quiknet.com>
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:50:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>
>> Ronnie,
>>
>> You drilled through the spar web for a hole to run the aileron cables
>> through? I'm sure the cables in my XL run entirely below the spar.
>>
>> Keith Hallsten
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ron Brown
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 11:03 AM
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>
>> No, the cable comes out just above the lower spar cap. If you get too 
>> low,
>> you'll have problems making the transition back to the keel bracket.
>>
>> Ronnie
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Ron! I appreciate the info. Apparently, the cables penetrate
>>> the
>>> firewall below the lower spar cap?
>>> Gordon
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 7:37 AM
>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, my changes did result in more up than down aileron travel. I don't
>>>> have
>>>> the measurements since I gave the new owner all of my manuals and paper
>>>> notes.
>>>>
>>>> I have attached two pictures that show the aileron in the up and down
>>>> positions. The 1/4" socket extension clamped to the inverted aileron
>>>> cable
>>>> brackets approximate the revised location of the aileron control cables
>>>> when
>>>> attached.
>>>>
>>>> Ronnie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: <cgputney at peoplepc.com>
>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ron, did your change result in 2.5" down and up? I want to do this
>>>>> change
>>>>> as well and would appreciate some numbers on your actual final
>>>>> measurements.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Gordon Putney
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "Ron Brown" <romott at mi-connection.com>
>>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my RC modeling days, I learned that to minimize adverse yaw, the
>>>>>> ailerons should go up more than they go down. Although we have Frieze
>>>>>> ailerons (the nose sticks down when the aileron is up), there is 
>>>>>> still
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> tendency toward adverse yaw. Especially since the attach point for 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> aileron cables at the back of the keel is not 90 degrees.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, to improve the situation, I installed my aileron bell cranks
>>>>>> beside
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> engine with a good bit of bias toward the front. I also lowered the
>>>>>> attach
>>>>>> point for the aileron cable jacket. This helps relieve the "error" at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> keel as well as move the bellcranks away from the engine (but your
>>>>>> rotary
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> narrower than the Lycoming so not an issue). The aileron bell crank 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> like 90 degrees to the cable when the aileron is down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a note that I wrote in 2003 that is repetitive but adds some
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> info:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I rigged my ailerons, I found it difficult to obtain the equal
>>>>>> 2.5"
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> and 2.5" down that is called for in the manuals - for my 173 Elite 
>>>>>> RG.
>>>>>> Since the push/pull cables at the rear of the keel do not have a 90
>>>>>> degree
>>>>>> approach angle, the connection of the push/pull cable at the aileron
>>>>>> torque
>>>>>> tube on the wing, results in ailerons that travel down more than they
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>> This causes an adverse yaw condition which will lead to wallowing at
>>>>>> low
>>>>>> speeds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I learned this lesson a long time ago when flying RC models. If you
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> off at just above stall speed, the model would turn the opposite
>>>>>> direction
>>>>>> from that commanded. This is because the aileron that is going down
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> more drag than the one going up. This causes the left wing to slow
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> you are commanding a right turn at slow speeds. This is called 
>>>>>> adverse
>>>>>> yaw
>>>>>> and is common in older airplanes. To get a coordinated turn, even at
>>>>>> speed,
>>>>>> you need to lead with a lot of rudder before applying aileron
>>>>>> deflection.
>>>>>> Or, you rig the ailerons so that there is more up travel than there 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> down
>>>>>> travel, which will reduce this yaw effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cessnas and some other planes (including our Velocities) have a 
>>>>>> Frieze
>>>>>> aileron, which features a lip that hangs down below the wing when the
>>>>>> aileron is deflected upwards. This helps balance the drag from the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> aileron which is hanging down in the airstream.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Velocities handle fine at higher speeds even with no rudder input. 
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> lower speeds, if the ailerons are rigged with the 90 degree approach
>>>>>> angle
>>>>>> at the wing, then this results in more down than up aileron travel,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> adverse yaw condition that some folks have called "wallowing" on
>>>>>> final.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A while back, Dave Black pointed out the problem at the keel. One fix
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> build a wide bellcrank at the back of the keel so that the aileron
>>>>>> cables
>>>>>> could be attached at a 90 degree approach angle while in the neutral
>>>>>> (centered) condition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other way is to attach the aileron cable at the wing so that the
>>>>>> approach angle is more than 90 degrees. Mine are attached at about 
>>>>>> 120
>>>>>> degrees, which results in more up travel than down travel. My 
>>>>>> Velocity
>>>>>> handles fine at low speeds, with just aileron control, similar to my
>>>>>> Cessna
>>>>>> 172. If I need a sharper turn, I'll kick in more rudder, just like in
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> 172. But normally, no rudder is needed, all the way down to the
>>>>>> runway.
>>>>>> (But I also installed VG's before my first flight, these also improve
>>>>>> low
>>>>>> speed aileron control).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ronnie Brown
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: <jewen at comporium.net>
>>>>>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:42 AM
>>>>>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rigging
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I am rigging up my aileron this weekend (173RG.) I recall several
>>>>>>>threads
>>>>>>>on the subject in the past, but can't find my notes. Does anyone mind
>>>>>>>refreshing me on the nuances that the manual does not address.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>>
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>
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