REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Wed Feb 27 06:59:27 CST 2008

I have a copy of the Columbia 350 and 400 (Now Cessna) POH if anyone is
interested.  I used Ronnie Brown's POH and modified it for our use.  I used
the Columbia because it has the same engine (IO-550) and specifically has
lean of peak operations.

Craig

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Terry Miles
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:26 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Andy,

Here is one with another density altitude chart attached.  

Terry

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Ellzey
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:57 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Terry,

Can you send us a link to the Koch chart?

Andy Ellzey

----- Original Message ----
From: "nmflyer1 at aol.com" <nmflyer1 at aol.com>
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:14:36 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Terry, 

I understand your concern. I first became aware of the Koch chart back when
I owned my Cherokee 180. I had to fly 4 people out of grand canyon AZ when
it was 98 degrees. I was only about 40 LBS under gross and the POH didn't go
anywhere near what I was doing. I used the Koch chart and it gave me a
simple solution. I did it 3 times actually, and according to what it said, I
could fly. It also said that it would take me 5500 ' to get airborn and my
climb performance would be reduced to about 250 FPM. This was using the sea
level specs from the POH and then inserting them into the KOCH chart. 

I had a safety margin (constant speed prop, gap seals, etc), but figured
that was only a trade off for the fact that my old engine had 2300 hours on
it. 

I planned my abort point, just in case, and started rolling. Man it took
forever! But, just as advertised, I took off right about 5500' and climbed
out at 300 FPM. 

The tower guys warned me lots of times agains the DA (they have had "issues"
with it there at GCN). 

I have used that thing for years and think it is just amazing. I'd recommend
everyone find one of these things and stick in their POH. 

Kurt 

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:13 am
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Hi Kurt,

Hey thanks.  I never heard of a KOCH chart.  I googled it and found one on
line.  That is a BIG piece of what I need.  I can do my own acceleration
distance tests to determine takeoff roll if it comes to that and work
backwards.  Thank you a lot.  It would be nice if they made one of those for
wet versus dry runway surface.or hard versus turf.  

The last thing I want to be is a jail house lawyer, but neither do I want to
be without tools already in place.

Am I making an issue of something that's never in play?  Is there sort of
common unspoken waiver for single engine experimentals with no factory
supplied charts.like what is take off distance plus a stopping distance pad
for high speed aborts.and then be able to adjust it with the KOCH chart, and
adjust further if needed for winds and runway surface and whatever.   With
no experience in type (or with all kinds of it), I'd like to have something
to reference so to make a safe determination if I can safely get in and get
back out and what kind of margins I have.  

I noticed that FAR 91.103 doesn't differentiate between single engine and
multi engine and the multi guys have many more factors to consider.  

I sent an email out this morning to the Cirrus owner.  I'll see if he gets
back to me.   Thanks again for news about the KOCH chart.

Terry

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?> ] On Behalf Of nmflyer1 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:19 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Terry 

Im not flying yet, but do you really have to have a chart for every
situation?  None of my old airplanes had charts that went up to the density
altutudes I fly from, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't make it illegal
to do so. 

What I found and use that works wonders, is a simple KOCH chart. That thing
is great! Works on every airplane and every DA. Then it tells you what to
add to your sea level takeoff specs, and what to subtract from your climb
performance. 

Kurt 

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Keith,

Yes, I know.  Thanks for helping out again, but that's right to my point.
It is for us to determine performance numbers and in particular for
takeoff/landing data.    

Imagine a chart labeled "Takeoff Performance"  with Density Altitude on one
axis and the takeoff ground run on the other.  Now see three sample lines
drawn on the body of the chart.  One for 2900 pounds, 2500 pounds, and 2200
pounds.  Then a series of notes for runway slope, surface winds, other (?).
Do you plan on gathering and then tablizing or graphing takeoff performance
data like that in the course of your phase one fly off?   Look at FAR 91.103
What are we to do?  It doesn't say "Does not apply to runways over 5000
feet."  

What will you-or any of us-do when asked say on a ramp check what is being
used for a takeoff performance calculations on any given day?   And 2nd
question how do you plan to present this info in your POH.   If we had a
basic chart for the XL airframe and engine type it would be nice starting
point:  Standard Day, no slope, no wind, dry surface.etc.  Mac's thoughts on
Ken B's ref to the Cirrus might be a nice tool.  Then in the course of phase
one comparison testing, you could develop your own set of deviations from
chart values.   

It would be nice to find a performance engineer somewhere to give us some
advice as to how to develop a baseline takeoff data chart.  As time permits,
this is on my list of phase one questions/goals.  (and why I am making this
inquiry)     I don't know.  I depend on you guys a lot for what's accepted
GA practice, and what gets passed off as a mute point based on excess runway
length.  I am only the result of my own experience, and takeoff performance
was always calculated and cross checked by a 2nd crew member for every
flight.  It surprises me in light of FAR directive that the factory "Owners'
Flight Manual" has nothing.    

Terry 

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg
<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?> ] On Behalf Of Keith Hallsten
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:50 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Terry,

The purpose of the Phase 1 test flight period is to develop the information
for the flight manual for your plane.  Since experimental planes do not
conform to a type certificate, they are all somewhat different and no
pre-published performance figures are directly applicable to them.  One
Velocity XL might be similar to another Velocity XL, but that's not assured.
We each have to determine the performance numbers that are applicable to our
particular version of the Velocity family of aircraft.

Keith Hallsten

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From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg
<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?> ] On Behalf Of Terry Miles
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:50 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Hi,

I have been working a document that could be construed as a POH supplement.
I have seen some pretty fancy and extensive POH by some builders.  

What are all of you doing?  

As far as what is FAR legal, at a ramp check, wouldn't the Velocity
published Flight Manual and Weight and Balance book suffice for the POH
requirement?  

(Obviously the wgt and bal numbers would have to be airplane to airplane
specific.) 

In the area of performance I haven't seen any Velo specific charts for
things like measuring tkof wgt, density alt, and ground roll.  Does anybody
have a basic set of performance charts for the XL?

As for systems operations and descriptions:  I have a pretty extensive
collection of my own notes and of course a lot of avionics Pilot Ops Guide
books and the like, but I am thinking now that they should be considered as
part of a hangar library rather than formally made a part of  the POH.
That said:   I do plan to fly cross country with a laptop loaded with all
this stuff and a spare USB drive with backups.

Last, to give an example of what I mean, here is one done by a Long EZ guy.
I also have the PDF version of this if anybody wants it.  It is complete
with all kinds of nice artwork and charts that's over a meg in size.  

Anybody wanna talk about what their POH looks like?

Thanks,

Terry

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