REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Brett Ferrell reflector at velocityxl.com
Tue Feb 26 10:42:05 CST 2008


http://n44vf.velocityxl.com/images/koch_chart.gif
I put a copy on my website.

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Andrew Ellzey <ajlz72756 at yahoo.com>
>  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  Sent: 26 Feb '08 10:57
>  
>  Terry,
>  
>  Can you send us a link to the Koch chart?
>  
>  Andy Ellzey
>  
>  
>  ----- Original Message ----
>  From: "nmflyer1 at aol.com" <nmflyer1 at aol.com>
>  To: reflector at tvbf.org
>  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:14:36 PM
>  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  
>  
>  Terry,
>  
>  I understand your concern. I first became aware of the Koch chart back
>  when I owned my Cherokee 180. I had to fly 4 people out of grand canyon AZ
>  when it was 98 degrees. I was only about 40 LBS under gross and the POH
>  didn't go anywhere near what I was doing. I used the Koch chart and it gave
>  me a simple solution. I did it 3 times actually, and according to what it
>  said, I could fly. It also said that it would take me 5500 ' to get airborn
>  and my climb performance would be reduced to about 250 FPM. This was using
>  the sea level specs from the POH and then inserting them into the KOCH
>  chart.
>  
>  I had a safety margin (constant speed prop, gap seals, etc), but figured
>  that was only a trade off for the fact that my old engine had 2300 hours on
>  it.
>  
>  I planned my abort point, just in case, and started rolling. Man it took
>  forever! But, just as advertised, I took off right about 5500' and climbed
>  out at 300 FPM.
>  
>  The tower guys warned me lots of times agains the DA (they have had
>  "issues" with it there at GCN).
>  
>  I have used that thing for years and think it is just amazing. I'd
>  recommend everyone find one of these things and stick in their POH.
>  
>  Kurt
>  
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Terry Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
>  To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
>  Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:13 am
>  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  
>  
>  Hi Kurt,
>  
>  Hey thanks.  I never heard of a KOCH chart.  I googled it and found one on
>  line.  That is a BIG piece of what I need.  I can do my own acceleration
>  distance tests to determine takeoff roll if it comes to that and work
>  backwards.  Thank you a lot.  It would be nice if they made one of those
>  for wet versus dry runway surface
or hard versus turf.
>  
>  The last thing I want to be is a jail house lawyer, but neither do I want
>  to be without tools already in place.
>  
>  Am I making an issue of something that’s never in play?  Is there sort
>  of common unspoken waiver for single engine experimentals with no factory
>  supplied charts
like what is take off distance plus a stopping distance
>  pad for high speed aborts
and then be able to adjust it with the KOCH
>  chart, and adjust further if needed for winds and runway surface and
>  whatever.   With no experience in type (or with all kinds of it), I’d
>  like to have something to reference so to make a safe determination if I
>  can safely get in and get back out and what kind of margins I have.
>  
>  I noticed that FAR 91.103 doesn’t differentiate between single engine
>  and multi engine and the multi guys have many more factors to consider.
>  
>  I sent an email out this morning to the Cirrus owner.  I’ll see if he
>  gets back to me.   Thanks again for news about the KOCH chart.
>  
>  Terry
>  
>  
>  --------------------
>  
>  FROM: [LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>  [[LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?]
>  mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] ON BEHALF OF [LINK:
>  mailto:nmflyer1 at aol.com] nmflyer1 at aol.com
>  SENT: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:19 PM
>  TO: [LINK: mailto:reflector at tvbf.org] reflector at tvbf.org
>  SUBJECT: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  
>  Terry
>  
>  Im not flying yet, but do you really have to have a chart for every
>  situation?  None of my old airplanes had charts that went up to the density
>  altutudes I fly from, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't make it
>  illegal to do so.
>  
>  What I found and use that works wonders, is a simple KOCH chart. That
>  thing is great! Works on every airplane and every DA. Then it tells you
>  what to add to your sea level takeoff specs, and what to subtract from your
>  climb performance.
>  
>  Kurt
>  
>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Terry Miles <[LINK: mailto:terrence_miles at hotmail.com]
>  terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
>  To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <[LINK:
>  mailto:reflector at tvbf.org] reflector at tvbf.org>
>  Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 7:07 pm
>  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  
>  
>  Keith,
>  
>  
>  Yes, I know.  Thanks for helping out again, but that’s right to my
>  point.  It is for us to determine performance numbers and in particular for
>  takeoff/landing data.
>  
>  
>  Imagine a chart labeled “Takeoff Performance”  with Density Altitude
>  on one axis and the takeoff ground run on the other.  Now see three sample
>  lines drawn on the body of the chart.  One for 2900 pounds, 2500 pounds,
>  and 2200 pounds.  Then a series of notes for runway slope, surface winds,
>  other (?).  Do you plan on gathering and then tablizing or graphing takeoff
>  performance data like that in the course of your phase one fly off?   Look
>  at FAR 91.103    What are we to do?  It doesn’t say “Does not apply to
>  runways over 5000 feet.”
>  
>  
>  What will you—or any of us—do when asked say on a ramp check what is
>  being used for a takeoff performance calculations on any given day?   And
>  2^nd question how do you plan to present this info in your POH.   If we had
>  a basic chart for the XL airframe and engine type it would be nice starting
>  point:  Standard Day, no slope, no wind, dry surface
etc.  Mac’s
>  thoughts on Ken B’s ref to the Cirrus might be a nice tool.  Then in the
>  course of phase one comparison testing, you could develop your own set of
>  deviations from chart values.
>  
>  
>  It would be nice to find a performance engineer somewhere to give us some
>  advice as to how to develop a baseline takeoff data chart.  As time
>  permits, this is on my list of phase one questions/goals.  (and why I am
>  making this inquiry)     I don’t know.  I depend on you guys a lot for
>  what’s accepted GA practice, and what gets passed off as a mute point
>  based on excess runway length.  I am only the result of my own experience,
>  and takeoff performance was always calculated and cross checked by a 2^nd
>  crew member for every flight.  It surprises me in light of FAR directive
>  that the factory “Owners’ Flight Manual” has nothing.
>  
>  
>  Terry
>  
>  
>  --------------------
>  
>  
>  FROM: [LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>  [[LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?]
>  mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg] ON BEHALF OF Keith Hallsten
>  SENT: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:50 PM
>  TO: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>  SUBJECT: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  
>  
>  Terry,
>  
>  
>  The purpose of the Phase 1 test flight period is to develop the
>  information for the flight manual for your plane.  Since experimental
>  planes do not conform to a type certificate, they are all somewhat
>  different and no pre-published performance figures are directly applicable
>  to them.  One Velocity XL might be similar to another Velocity XL, but
>  that’s not assured.  We each have to determine the performance numbers
>  that are applicable to our particular version of the Velocity family of
>  aircraft.
>  
>  
>  Keith Hallsten
>  
>  
>  --------------------
>  
>  
>  FROM: [LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>  [[LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?]
>  mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg] ON BEHALF OF Terry Miles
>  SENT: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:50 AM
>  TO: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
>  SUBJECT: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>  
>  
>  Hi,
>  
>  
>  I have been working a document that could be construed as a POH
>  supplement.  I have seen some pretty fancy and extensive POH by some
>  builders.
>  
>  
>  What are all of you doing?
>  
>  
>  As far as what is FAR legal, at a ramp check, wouldn’t the Velocity
>  published Flight Manual and Weight and Balance book suffice for the POH
>  requirement?
>  
>  (Obviously the wgt and bal numbers would have to be airplane to airplane
>  specific.)
>  
>  
>  In the area of performance I haven’t seen any Velo specific charts for
>  things like measuring tkof wgt, density alt, and ground roll.  Does anybody
>  have a basic set of performance charts for the XL?
>  
>  
>  As for systems operations and descriptions:  I have a pretty extensive
>  collection of my own notes and of course a lot of avionics Pilot Ops Guide
>  books and the like, but I am thinking now that they should be considered as
>  part of a hangar library rather than formally made a part of  the POH.
>  That said:   I do plan to fly cross country with a laptop loaded with all
>  this stuff and a spare USB drive with backups.
>  
>  
>  Last, to give an example of what I mean, here is one done by a Long EZ
>  guy.  I also have the PDF version of this if anybody wants it.  It is
>  complete with all kinds of nice artwork and charts that’s over a meg in
>  size.
>  
>  
>  Anybody wanna talk about what their POH looks like?
>  
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Terry
>  
>  
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