REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
Brett Ferrell
reflector at velocityxl.com
Tue Feb 26 10:42:05 CST 2008
http://n44vf.velocityxl.com/images/koch_chart.gif
I put a copy on my website.
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Andrew Ellzey <ajlz72756 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
> Sent: 26 Feb '08 10:57
>
> Terry,
>
> Can you send us a link to the Koch chart?
>
> Andy Ellzey
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "nmflyer1 at aol.com" <nmflyer1 at aol.com>
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:14:36 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>
>
> Terry,
>
> I understand your concern. I first became aware of the Koch chart back
> when I owned my Cherokee 180. I had to fly 4 people out of grand canyon AZ
> when it was 98 degrees. I was only about 40 LBS under gross and the POH
> didn't go anywhere near what I was doing. I used the Koch chart and it gave
> me a simple solution. I did it 3 times actually, and according to what it
> said, I could fly. It also said that it would take me 5500 ' to get airborn
> and my climb performance would be reduced to about 250 FPM. This was using
> the sea level specs from the POH and then inserting them into the KOCH
> chart.
>
> I had a safety margin (constant speed prop, gap seals, etc), but figured
> that was only a trade off for the fact that my old engine had 2300 hours on
> it.
>
> I planned my abort point, just in case, and started rolling. Man it took
> forever! But, just as advertised, I took off right about 5500' and climbed
> out at 300 FPM.
>
> The tower guys warned me lots of times agains the DA (they have had
> "issues" with it there at GCN).
>
> I have used that thing for years and think it is just amazing. I'd
> recommend everyone find one of these things and stick in their POH.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:13 am
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>
>
> Hi Kurt,
>
> Hey thanks. I never heard of a KOCH chart. I googled it and found one on
> line. That is a BIG piece of what I need. I can do my own acceleration
> distance tests to determine takeoff roll if it comes to that and work
> backwards. Thank you a lot. It would be nice if they made one of those
> for wet versus dry runway surface
or hard versus turf.
>
> The last thing I want to be is a jail house lawyer, but neither do I want
> to be without tools already in place.
>
> Am I making an issue of something thats never in play? Is there sort
> of common unspoken waiver for single engine experimentals with no factory
> supplied charts
like what is take off distance plus a stopping distance
> pad for high speed aborts
and then be able to adjust it with the KOCH
> chart, and adjust further if needed for winds and runway surface and
> whatever. With no experience in type (or with all kinds of it), Id
> like to have something to reference so to make a safe determination if I
> can safely get in and get back out and what kind of margins I have.
>
> I noticed that FAR 91.103 doesnt differentiate between single engine
> and multi engine and the multi guys have many more factors to consider.
>
> I sent an email out this morning to the Cirrus owner. Ill see if he
> gets back to me. Thanks again for news about the KOCH chart.
>
> Terry
>
>
> --------------------
>
> FROM: [LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> [[LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?]
> mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] ON BEHALF OF [LINK:
> mailto:nmflyer1 at aol.com] nmflyer1 at aol.com
> SENT: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:19 PM
> TO: [LINK: mailto:reflector at tvbf.org] reflector at tvbf.org
> SUBJECT: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>
> Terry
>
> Im not flying yet, but do you really have to have a chart for every
> situation? None of my old airplanes had charts that went up to the density
> altutudes I fly from, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't make it
> illegal to do so.
>
> What I found and use that works wonders, is a simple KOCH chart. That
> thing is great! Works on every airplane and every DA. Then it tells you
> what to add to your sea level takeoff specs, and what to subtract from your
> climb performance.
>
> Kurt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Miles <[LINK: mailto:terrence_miles at hotmail.com]
> terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <[LINK:
> mailto:reflector at tvbf.org] reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 7:07 pm
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>
>
> Keith,
>
>
> Yes, I know. Thanks for helping out again, but thats right to my
> point. It is for us to determine performance numbers and in particular for
> takeoff/landing data.
>
>
> Imagine a chart labeled Takeoff Performance with Density Altitude
> on one axis and the takeoff ground run on the other. Now see three sample
> lines drawn on the body of the chart. One for 2900 pounds, 2500 pounds,
> and 2200 pounds. Then a series of notes for runway slope, surface winds,
> other (?). Do you plan on gathering and then tablizing or graphing takeoff
> performance data like that in the course of your phase one fly off? Look
> at FAR 91.103 What are we to do? It doesnt say Does not apply to
> runways over 5000 feet.
>
>
> What will youor any of usdo when asked say on a ramp check what is
> being used for a takeoff performance calculations on any given day? And
> 2^nd question how do you plan to present this info in your POH. If we had
> a basic chart for the XL airframe and engine type it would be nice starting
> point: Standard Day, no slope, no wind, dry surface
etc. Macs
> thoughts on Ken Bs ref to the Cirrus might be a nice tool. Then in the
> course of phase one comparison testing, you could develop your own set of
> deviations from chart values.
>
>
> It would be nice to find a performance engineer somewhere to give us some
> advice as to how to develop a baseline takeoff data chart. As time
> permits, this is on my list of phase one questions/goals. (and why I am
> making this inquiry) I dont know. I depend on you guys a lot for
> whats accepted GA practice, and what gets passed off as a mute point
> based on excess runway length. I am only the result of my own experience,
> and takeoff performance was always calculated and cross checked by a 2^nd
> crew member for every flight. It surprises me in light of FAR directive
> that the factory Owners Flight Manual has nothing.
>
>
> Terry
>
>
> --------------------
>
>
> FROM: [LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> [[LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?]
> mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg] ON BEHALF OF Keith Hallsten
> SENT: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:50 PM
> TO: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> SUBJECT: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>
>
> Terry,
>
>
> The purpose of the Phase 1 test flight period is to develop the
> information for the flight manual for your plane. Since experimental
> planes do not conform to a type certificate, they are all somewhat
> different and no pre-published performance figures are directly applicable
> to them. One Velocity XL might be similar to another Velocity XL, but
> thats not assured. We each have to determine the performance numbers
> that are applicable to our particular version of the Velocity family of
> aircraft.
>
>
> Keith Hallsten
>
>
> --------------------
>
>
> FROM: [LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
> [[LINK: mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org?]
> mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg] ON BEHALF OF Terry Miles
> SENT: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:50 AM
> TO: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> SUBJECT: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I have been working a document that could be construed as a POH
> supplement. I have seen some pretty fancy and extensive POH by some
> builders.
>
>
> What are all of you doing?
>
>
> As far as what is FAR legal, at a ramp check, wouldnt the Velocity
> published Flight Manual and Weight and Balance book suffice for the POH
> requirement?
>
> (Obviously the wgt and bal numbers would have to be airplane to airplane
> specific.)
>
>
> In the area of performance I havent seen any Velo specific charts for
> things like measuring tkof wgt, density alt, and ground roll. Does anybody
> have a basic set of performance charts for the XL?
>
>
> As for systems operations and descriptions: I have a pretty extensive
> collection of my own notes and of course a lot of avionics Pilot Ops Guide
> books and the like, but I am thinking now that they should be considered as
> part of a hangar library rather than formally made a part of the POH.
> That said: I do plan to fly cross country with a laptop loaded with all
> this stuff and a spare USB drive with backups.
>
>
> Last, to give an example of what I mean, here is one done by a Long EZ
> guy. I also have the PDF version of this if anybody wants it. It is
> complete with all kinds of nice artwork and charts thats over a meg in
> size.
>
>
> Anybody wanna talk about what their POH looks like?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Terry
>
>
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