REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions

Andrew Ellzey ajlz72756 at yahoo.com
Tue Feb 26 09:57:28 CST 2008


Terry,

Can you send us a link to the Koch chart?

Andy Ellzey


----- Original Message ----
From: "nmflyer1 at aol.com" <nmflyer1 at aol.com>
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:14:36 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions


Terry, 
 
I understand your concern. I first became aware of the Koch chart back when I owned my Cherokee 180. I had to fly 4 people out of grand canyon AZ when it was 98 degrees. I was only about 40 LBS under gross and the POH didn't go anywhere near what I was doing. I used the Koch chart and it gave me a simple solution. I did it 3 times actually, and according to what it said, I could fly. It also said that it would take me 5500 ' to get airborn and my climb performance would be reduced to about 250 FPM. This was using the sea level specs from the POH and then inserting them into the KOCH chart. 
 
I had a safety margin (constant speed prop, gap seals, etc), but figured that was only a trade off for the fact that my old engine had 2300 hours on it. 
 
I planned my abort point, just in case, and started rolling. Man it took forever! But, just as advertised, I took off right about 5500' and climbed out at 300 FPM. 
 
The tower guys warned me lots of times agains the DA (they have had "issues" with it there at GCN). 

I have used that thing for years and think it is just amazing. I'd recommend everyone find one of these things and stick in their POH. 

Kurt 
 



-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 10:13 am
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions


Hi Kurt,
 
Hey thanks.  I never heard of a KOCH chart.  I googled it and found one on line.  That is a BIG piece of what I need.  I can do my own acceleration distance tests to determine takeoff roll if it comes to that and work backwards.  Thank you a lot.  It would be nice if they made one of those for wet versus dry runway surface…or hard versus turf.  
 
The last thing I want to be is a jail house lawyer, but neither do I want to be without tools already in place.
 
Am I making an issue of something that’s never in play?  Is there sort of common unspoken waiver for single engine experimentals with no factory supplied charts…like what is take off distance plus a stopping distance pad for high speed aborts…and then be able to adjust it with the KOCH chart, and adjust further if needed for winds and runway surface and whatever.   With no experience in type (or with all kinds of it), I’d like to have something to reference so to make a safe determination if I can safely get in and get back out and what kind of margins I have.  
 
I noticed that FAR 91.103 doesn’t differentiate between single engine and multi engine and the multi guys have many more factors to consider.  
 
I sent an email out this morning to the Cirrus owner.  I’ll see if he gets back to me.   Thanks again for news about the KOCH chart.
 
Terry
 
 



From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of nmflyer1 at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:19 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
 
Terry 

Im not flying yet, but do you really have to have a chart for every situation?  None of my old airplanes had charts that went up to the density altutudes I fly from, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't make it illegal to do so. 

What I found and use that works wonders, is a simple KOCH chart. That thing is great! Works on every airplane and every DA. Then it tells you what to add to your sea level takeoff specs, and what to subtract from your climb performance. 

Kurt 


-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Miles <terrence_miles at hotmail.com>
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
Keith,
 
Yes, I know.  Thanks for helping out again, but that’s right to my point.  It is for us to determine performance numbers and in particular for takeoff/landing data.    
 
Imagine a chart labeled “Takeoff Performance”  with Density Altitude on one axis and the takeoff ground run on the other.  Now see three sample lines drawn on the body of the chart.  One for 2900 pounds, 2500 pounds, and 2200 pounds.  Then a series of notes for runway slope, surface winds, other (?).  Do you plan on gathering and then tablizing or graphing takeoff performance data like that in the course of your phase one fly off?   Look at FAR 91.103    What are we to do?  It doesn’t say “Does not apply to runways over 5000 feet.”  
 
What will you—or any of us—do when asked say on a ramp check what is being used for a takeoff performance calculations on any given day?   And 2nd question how do you plan to present this info in your POH.   If we had a basic chart for the XL airframe and engine type it would be nice starting point:  Standard Day, no slope, no wind, dry surface…etc.  Mac’s thoughts on Ken B’s ref to the Cirrus might be a nice tool.  Then in the course of phase one comparison testing, you could develop your own set of deviations from chart values.   
 
It would be nice to find a performance engineer somewhere to give us some advice as to how to develop a baseline takeoff data chart.  As time permits, this is on my list of phase one questions/goals.  (and why I am making this inquiry)     I don’t know.  I depend on you guys a lot for what’s accepted GA practice, and what gets passed off as a mute point based on excess runway length.  I am only the result of my own experience, and takeoff performance was always calculated and cross checked by a 2nd crew member for every flight.  It surprises me in light of FAR directive that the factory “Owners’ Flight Manual” has nothing.    
 
Terry 
 



From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg] On Behalf Of Keith Hallsten
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 3:50 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
 
Terry,
 
The purpose of the Phase 1 test flight period is to develop the information for the flight manual for your plane.  Since experimental planes do not conform to a type certificate, they are all somewhat different and no pre-published performance figures are directly applicable to them.  One Velocity XL might be similar to another Velocity XL, but that’s not assured.  We each have to determine the performance numbers that are applicable to our particular version of the Velocity family of aircraft.
 
Keith Hallsten
 
 



From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbforg] On Behalf Of Terry Miles
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:50 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: REFLECTOR: Builder POH additions
 
Hi,
 
I have been working a document that could be construed as a POH supplement.  I have seen some pretty fancy and extensive POH by some builders.  
 
What are all of you doing?  
 
As far as what is FAR legal, at a ramp check, wouldn’t the Velocity published Flight Manual and Weight and Balance book suffice for the POH requirement?  
(Obviously the wgt and bal numbers would have to be airplane to airplane specific.) 
 
In the area of performance I haven’t seen any Velo specific charts for things like measuring tkof wgt, density alt, and ground roll.  Does anybody have a basic set of performance charts for the XL?
 
As for systems operations and descriptions:  I have a pretty extensive collection of my own notes and of course a lot of avionics Pilot Ops Guide books and the like, but I am thinking now that they should be considered as part of a hangar library rather than formally made a part of  the POH.    That said:   I do plan to fly cross country with a laptop loaded with all this stuff and a spare USB drive with backups.
 
Last, to give an example of what I mean, here is one done by a Long EZ guy.  I also have the PDF version of this if anybody wants it.  It is complete with all kinds of nice artwork and charts that’s over a meg in size.  
 
Anybody wanna talk about what their POH looks like?
 
Thanks,
Terry
 
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