REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump

Wed Apr 30 21:44:42 CDT 2008

WOW Thats crazy!!!  I see that this may bee a dificult project. I will be using the throttle and mixture cable for the pilot side replacrment of the throttle quadrant. I am changing to all push pull. I will call you tomorrow. Thanx for all the info. I can really use all the help I can get. Althought I dont always like what I hear, I guess I need to hear it. Thanx Jeff

From: kenb at velocityaircraft.comTo: reflector at tvbf.orgDate: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:59:48 -0400Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump

Jeff,

I’m not positive, but it sounds like you might have the right-handed fuel pump, in a left handed engine situation. I could be wrong, but it’s something that I would check on. The part number should be printed on the fuel pump itself.

A few words on the Franklin 6A350-C1L (that is, the Left-handed Franklin, the sinistra Franklin) Please note, these are not “factory opinions” nor do they represent 100% factual knowledge. These are merely my own thoughts and experiences in the matter:

I am, by no means, an expert on Franklin engines (or aircraft engines in general for that matter) nor am I an A&P. So take everything that I say with a grain of salt. But for the last several months. I have acted as the de facto project manager on a Franklin 6A-350-C1L engine installation taking place in the Velocity Service Center on an SE-RG. So I might have a few insights to share that prospective and current C1L owners might find interesting or useful. 

First off, notice that I said, “for several months…” A normal Lycoming or Continental engine installation at the Velocity Service Center will, as a general rule, take us a few days. This is primarily due to ready parts availability for these engines. Since PZL stopped production on the 6A-350, it has become increasingly difficult to find parts for Franklin engines – engine accessories in particular. Even more so for the rarer C1L engine. As such, as I have spent at least 7 or 8 months trying – in vain so far – to put together the proper accessories for a C1L engine in order to make it run.

A little back-story: When Velocity first started supporting the Franklin engine, the most common variant was the C1R. The Velocity Franklin Engine Mount was specifically engineered to allow proper clearance between the firewall and the popular engine accessories available during that time for the C1R engine. That is to say: we distanced the engine from the firewall in order to properly accommodate the Skytec FvST-1 Franklin starter, and the Slick 6399 magneto. Note: these are both right-handed accessories for right-handed engines, and significantly smaller than what is generally available on the market for left-handed Franklin engines.

Soon after Velocity introduced “Franklin Engine Installation Support” more and more left-handed engines started turning up that people were interested in putting into their Velocity aircraft. It is my understanding that these were all Vietnam-era surplus helicopter engines that PZL developed as variants from the original US Franklin’s application in the Republic Sea-Bee. At the time, PZL would grant “distributorship” and the discounts that came with it to anyone who could put together an order for a certain number of engines. So several of these left-handed engines came pouring into the country by people looking to get a good deal. The engine in my care was originally distributed by “Atlas Motors,” and the paperwork shows that it came with accessory installation kits, but no accessories (that is, no mags, no starter, no alternator, etc.) Please note that this should by no means be interpreted as a disparaging remark against Atlas Motors, or the people involved. The simple fact was, these were sold as “crate motors” – and the acquisition of the accessories was left to the end consumer.

Since these motors were readily available, and cheap – people started buying them for Velocity’s since an ‘installation kit’ was sold, even though Velocity had originally developed this kit for the C1R engine. What was not known at the time was that PZL would soon cease production of the engine, and that some of the 3rd party companies that made accessories for the engine would quit supplying aftermarket parts. For instance: Sky-tec encountered problems with several of their Franklin starters. The bendix gear on the starter would, in some cases, destroy itself against the gears on the engine accessory pad. This caused several Sky-tec equipped Franklin engines to have to be prematurely overhauled due to metal contamination in the crank case. Sky-tec has since discontinued production of this starter. I have been told, that it was because of this problem. I do not know if this is true or not. 

I have also been told that it was possible to take the parts from two of these (right-handed) sky-tec starters and to cannibalize certain components to make a left-handed starter. I have not found anyone who could tell me any more about this. (someone please, fill me in!) For lack of a starter for the engine in my care, I had to opt for the big, heavy, Prestolite starter. As well, the counter-clockwise rotating (read: left-handed) Prestolite starter is extremely difficult to find. I spent months trying to track one down. Months. I’m sure there were many resources that I didn’t use (the Sea-bee guys, the Franklin-Velocity community, etc.) but the simple fact that I couldn’t call an aero-parts warehouse, and the US Franklin Engine experts and immediately find what I needed gave me cause for some concern, and should act as a warning for anyone interested in a “Left-handed Franklin Velocity Project.” I’m not saying that it can’t be done, I’m just saying do your homework first.

After my early problems in tracking down the starter - the first part on my list for the owner of the aircraft, I must admit, I spent a significant amount of time trying to convince him of the wisdom of investing in a Lycoming. He decided that he wanted to stick with the Franklin, so I went back to work.

Since then, I have discovered a few other things: As far as magnetos are concerned, PZL originally spec’d two magnetos for the C1R, a Bendix (The part number of which escapes me right now), and an equivalent Slick (the 6399, I believe), which was much smaller, and lighter. However, for the C1L, they have only spec’d Bendix mags. (the 10-340379-9, and the 10-340379-4) – one of which I have been entirely unsuccessful in tracking down, the other of which, I finally recently found and purchased. (So, Jeff, the short answer is: yes, a magneto is available for this engine. Read on.) However, there is a problem with this magneto, or a problem with the Velocity Franklin Engine Mount, or a problem with the firewall, or a problem with the Velocity Center section spar. Interpret it how you will. You see, the sheer size of this magneto, and it’s location on the Franklin accessory pad, causes it to interfere with the fire-wall. In some (very rare) cases, a large accessory can be accommodated by forming a recess in the firewall, and reinforcing that area. However, the location of the magneto on the accessory pad, if a recess were to be made, would directly interfere with the center section spar. That is: the only way to fit the damn magneto on its pad would be to grind a hole through the firewall and into the spar-cap. It should go unsaid that making holes in your spar-cap is not an option. All of this is a long-way-round way of saying that in my experience, there is a reason that everyone with a left-handed Franklin has two electronic ignitions. Because they couldn’t find a magneto that would work. Now, this might not be the case – I wasn’t working at Velocity when the Franklin was en vogue, so I’m sure there’s someone out there who knows better than me. Please, someone out there correct me. If I can get a magneto onto this engine, I would love it. In fact, I will give away a set of the new cast-aluminum toe-brake pedals to the first person who can give me the part-number and source of a magneto that will fit on this engine without interfering with the firewall. In the mean time though, I have all but given up on the security, redundancy, and peace of mind that a magneto would provide for the safe operation of this engine, and am about to order a second Lightspeed Electronic Ignition system.

OK, so I’ve covered starters and magnetos – what’s next? Alternators and voltage regulators are generally available – the marvel schebler MA-5 carburetor is more rare, but can be found – so lets move on to fuel pumps. In my experience, the AD-Compliant mechanically driven fuel pump for the C1R is generally available, but you have to know where to look. Good sources for Franklin parts in general (and knowledge and advice) are: Bruce Kown of Classic Aire – John at Franklin in Ft. Collins, CO – and Susan Prall at Franklin in Jewett, Texas. There’s also a guy named Greg Lucas who seems to be the guy for Franklin overhauls. However, the AD-Compliant fuel pump for the C1L has proven to be all but impossible to find. Maybe I’m not looking in the right places. But I haven’t found one. When I was first tasked with finding accessories for this project, I immediately called Brian Michalk to get the new fuel pump. That is, I called Brian the same day. Without ever having looked at the engine. Without realizing that it was left-hand turning. Chalk this up to me being an idiot. (Note to Velocity builders: don’t let me handle parts acquisition for your service center project.) Brian immediately shipped the right-handed fuel pump that I told him I needed. I soon found out that it was entirely inappropriate for this engine. Since then, I haven’t been able to find the left-handed fuel-pump. But it should also be said that the owner of the engine soon gave us the command to fuel-inject the engine, so we had to go with a different fuel pump entirely, so I gave up looking for the other pump. (Fuel injection has proven to be an entirely different can of worms which I won’t go into here. If anyone is interested, contact me, and I’ll talk your ear off.)

Regardless, I feel as though I’m rambling at this point. So I’ll try to cut it short: it is my belief that the Velocity Franklin Engine install kit was originally designed around a C1R engine with accessories that are no longer available. Finding accessories today has proven difficult for the C1L given their rarity and lack of fit with engine/engine-mount/firewall/spar. I would love to hear any and all Franklin owners chime in with corrections, additions, and suggestions. (Brian Michalk? Hiroo Umeno? Dave Wilson? Jerry Tietsma? Rick Lavoie? Others?)

By the way, Jeff – when you and I spoke last you placed an order for a throttle cable for the Franklin application – and told me that you wished to use it as co-pilot control. I have been waiting on the same cable for use in our service center project from our cable manufacturer. But as of yesterday, one of our service center guys, Rick, has found a way to route an off-the-shelf cable that we keep in stock for use as a co-pilot throttle control in the Franklin application. I’ll call you about it tomorrow.

Best Regards,

-Ken Baker
kenb at velocityaircraft.com

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff HowellSent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 5:36 PMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump

ken I believe my engine is a 6a-350-c1l I just looked at the engine logs and that is what it is telling me. I am not sure of the fuel pump but the engine doesnt run without the boost pump. thankx I will call you tomorrow. Jeff

From: kenb at velocityaircraft.comTo: reflector at tvbf.orgDate: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:40:13 -0400Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
Jeff,

I believe that PZL originally manufactured the mechanically driven pumps after they issued the emergency AD on the old style diaphragm pumps that were failing. The part number will either be PLL-7-6R (26.11.8300) for right-handed Franklin 6A350-C1, and 6A-350C1R engines, or PLL-7-6L (26.11.8310) for left-handed Franklin 6A350-C1L engine.

We have an aircraft in the Service Center right now equipped with a Franklin that we have been asked to finish. Since taking on the project, the owner decided to try to fuel inject the engine, and the PZL mechanical fuel pump is incapable of producing the pressures necessary for this. We have no real need for the PZL mechanical pump anymore. If you're interested, contact me off the Reflector.

I originally got the fuel pump in my possession from Brian Michalk. I'm sure that he probably has another that he'd be willing to part with.

While on the subject, I don't suppose anyone on the Reflector is running a left-handed Franklin? The 6A-350C1L model?

Best Regards,

-Ken Baker
kenb at velocityaircraft.com

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff HowellSent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:15 PMTo: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
ken, How much do you want for the fuel pump? where can I get one and what is the part # Thanx Jeff

From: kenb at velocityaircraft.comTo: reflector at tvbf.orgDate: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:14:46 -0400Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
Don,

I'm not sure about repair - but if you need a new AD compliant Franklin fuel pump for a carbureted application on a 6A-350-C1R, I've got one.

Best,

-Ken Baker
kenb at velocityaircraft.com

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of John DibbleSent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:41 AMTo: djroyer at earthlink.net; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders listSubject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin PZL fuel pump
My Franklin just started leaking oil around the fuel pump.  Not sure yet exactly where it's coming from.  Don, any update on what you have done? John Donald Royer wrote: 
 Oil is coming out of the vent hole in my PZL rotatory  fuel pump. Am I the first one o have this problem? Does anyone know whether it can be repaired? Looking at the illustated parts list, it seems to me that the only thing that might be a candidate for replacement is something called a needle bearing. Can anyone help me with this. The pump has less than one hundred hours on it. If it cannot be repaied, does anyone know if or where a new one might be available?  Donald Royer   

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