REFLECTOR: Crossflow

Gary Stull gstull at tampabay.rr.com
Tue Dec 4 16:54:40 CST 2007


As an A&P and a Velo owner, I wouldn't recommend another powerplant then a 
Lycoming. There has been much debate on the Canard Aviator forum about 
alternative engines. Some have installed other powerplants and returned to 
the tried and true Lycosaurus. One individual installed the rotary engine. 
His comments were that every time he flew it he was a test pilot. He 
experienced multiple engine failures, some off field before he returned to 
the Lycoming. Before pursuing an alternative engine be very aware your build 
time will be greatly extended working out all the bugs. Also be aware that 
most insurance companies will not insure an auto conversion. With the 
limited companies writing experimental policies you may not get insurance. 
The fact is auto engines were designed to operate under a totally different 
environment. They typically work at 15% of their maximum power most of their 
lives. That's all that a typical car takes in power to roll down the road at 
cruise. Add to that speed reduction units and the failure rate goes up. 
Lycoming experimented with geared engines and didn't have much luck. I 
realize technology has improved, but the fact is there are very few auto 
engine installations that have been flown to 2000 hr TBO to prove their 
merit. Just my 2 cents
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Bucko" <mbuc310 at cox.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Crossflow


> More to think about. Thank to all. I wanted to rebuild the IO540 but I 
> can't
> get my EAA IA guy to sign on for that. I like Andy's approach and am sure 
> I
> would be able to perform the task. But without someone looking over my
> shoulder, keeping me on the right path, I will have to send it out.  I
> surely don't want to spend 8 grand to have the crank checked for cracks 
> when
> I am able to turn nuts and bolts myself... you all know the score.
>
> I think I am going to cut my winglets now. It is sunny and warm outside.
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Andy Millin
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:57 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Crossflow
>
>
> Len,
>
> Caveat, caveat, ad infinitim...
>
> Velocity builder Doug Hayes had posted information on his Crossflow
> experience on the reflector back on 8/26/2004.
>
> His story is long, sad, and very frustrating.
>
> I wrote to him off the reflector a couple times.  I wanted to check in.  I
> was hoping for a good outcome.
>
> I have the complete chain of all email exchanged, if anyone is interested
> contact me off the reflector.  Too long to post here.
>
> Last contact was 9 months ago and he still was not ready for engine start
> let alone flight.
>
> What broke my heart most was the experience had nearly, if not completely,
> drained Doug of all desire to finish the project; and he has a completed
> airframe.
>
> I am like Ronnie, I like all types of engines.  I like all configurations 
> of
> Velocity.  I want a ride in everyone's plane.  (I know, shameless)
>
> I can't wait to get my ride in Alex's plane.  Yeah, he can go first... but
> ... :)
>
> When it comes to aircraft engines, you have to acknowledge you are in a 
> new
> realm.  The money involved adds new perspective.  Engines can have market
> values $20K, $30K, $40K, and well above.   I just checked Crossflow's 
> site.
> Their low end starts at $26K and goes up to $43.5.  It's up to you to 
> decide
> if that's a lot of money.
>
> I'm sorry to say you don't have to go far to find someone that has been
> taken for tens of thousands of dollars.  Left to wait for years hoping to
> have an engine delivered.
>
> When it comes to new engine packages, they are very appealing.  All the
> builders have a good story and will tell you why they are solid.  The 
> desire
> to believe the story can be great (you'll wanna).  They will be likable
> people.
>
> I'm not trying to say everyone is a crook.  I guess I'm saying do your
> research.  Take your time.  Check references.  A bad decision on a major
> purchase can suck the life and joy out of your project.
>
> Len, I'm feeling a bit pedantic here.  But, when you've been around a
> while, you pick up a few things...
>
> FWIW:
>
> I don't know of anyone flying with a Crossflow in a Velocity
>
> Bob Bols (XL/RG) has purchased an engine from Jason Day at Vesta.
> He had not received the engine as of OSH 2007.  Love to have an update.
>
> I don't know if anyone has purchased the French rotary engine that
> was on display at OSH...
>
> I don't know if anyone has purchased an Eggenfeller for a Velocity.
>
> I know builders that put money down on the Deltahawk.  The good
> people, and they are good people, at Deltahawk are still working on it.
> Over the years I have heard them speak several times.  Their work is
> impressive.  Unfortunately each presentation put them in final testing,
> final mods before production, and they will be shipping in six months. 
> The
> first time I heard this was in 2003.  The last time was at Velocity
> University.
>
> Others have built the engines themselves:  Alex, Al Gietzen, Kurt
> Winker, Chris Barber, Dave Bertram, Bill Mulrooney.  These gentlemen have
> flown, or are very close to it.
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of len.baxter at gm.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:41 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
> Ron.... thanks for the caution !!!     Is anyone flying a Crossflow
> sucessfully??
>
>
> Len Baxter
> XLRG-5
>
>
>
>
> "Ron Brown" <romott at roadrunner.com>
> Sent by: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>
> 12/04/2007 02:22 PM
> Please respond to
> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
> To
> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc 
> Subject
> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I had written the following to Alex but since Matt and Len have mentioned
> the Crossflow engines, let me share what I know about Crossflow and to
> caution folks to be VERY CAREFUL before you spend any money.  There is
> another Velocity builder out there that ordered and paid for an engine and
> had not received it as of a year or so ago.  I hadn't planned on sharing 
> the
> note to Alex with the Reflector crowd, but since at least two of you are
> considering the engine - I didn't want to see anyone else taken to the
> cleaners (Dick paid as much for his FWF Crossflow, 4 cylinder turbo engine
> as I did my Don George Lycasarus IO360.)  I have 360 hours of reliable
> flying - Dick is still trying to get his airplane back home.
>
> Alex,
> I wanted to update you on my friend, Dick Healy and his 4 cylinder, turbo
> charged Crossflow Subaru mounted on his Lancair 320 in 2004.
>
> He has spent much of the summer in Canada after trailering his airplane to
> Crossflow to get the engine running right. (He got his engine after many
> delays in 2004).  They are on the third engine now (at least one engine 
> was
> fried from running too lean), added an intercooler due to high combustion
> air temps.  The third engine has flown once and with winter setting in, it
> may be next year before they can confirm the flyability of the current
> setup.
>
> Just wanted you to know that Jorge may not know all he needs to know about
> the ECU and engine operations.  On one of his trips down to NC to tune the
> ECU, he told Dick he did not think it was advisable to provide a cool air
> source to the turbo inlet.  You and I both know, the cooler the air, the
> better the engine performance will be (well short of carb icing - but 
> these
> engines ARE fuel injected).  I couldn't believe Jorge had advised against
> the cool air scoop.  Now, he understands that not only does it need a cool
> air source, it also needs to have an intercooler to keep combustion air 
> down
> to a reasonable temperature.
>
> Good luck with your engine - I feel better about what you are doing versus
> buying a firewall forward (rearward) from Crossflow.  They make a pretty
> engine, but I question his engine knowledge.  Last I heard, he has sold 60
> engines.  None are in reliable flying conditions yet!  Dick says there is
> one other flying engine at Crossflow, but it hasn't left the area yet.
>
> Reflector Gang:  I love auto engines as much as anyone.  I have been a hot
> rodder for years, built several engines including a Chevy small block in a
> 53 Studebaker coupe.  But, if you want reliable power for your Velocity, 
> an
> engine that will keep you flying for a long time on a single rebuild, and
> can actually get pretty good fuel burns with a matched set of injector
> nozzles and good EGT/CHT monitoring (I get 8 GPH at 2600 rpm and 155 knots
> in my 173 Elite RG.  In a standard wing, you can add at least 15 knots to
> the cruise speed.  Oh and I hung my engine and installed all of the FW
> backwards in a little over a month.  Everything works as installed
> originally.  It starts easily, runs cool, and is very dependable.
>
> Ronnie Brown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: len.baxter at gm.com <mailto:len.baxter at gm.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:40 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
> Go for it Matt !!.....there are a lot of us who have ( or will have )
> abandoned the 70+ yr old technology represented by  Cont  and Lyc.   I am
> leaning towards a GM LS2, or a 3 rotor rotary, or the crossflow turbo.....
> hard to choose.
>
>
> Len Baxter
> XLRG-5
>
>
>
>
> "Matt Bucko" <mbuc310 at cox.net <mailto:mbuc310 at cox.net> > Sent by:
> reflector-bounces at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>
>
> 12/04/2007 12:27 PM
>
> Please respond to
> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>
>
> To
> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc 
> Subject
> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you. Most impressed here.  I have been toying with selling my IO540
> and going with something else. Deltahawk still has to deliver... I have 
> seen
> the Crossflow site before.  Nice build.
> Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:27 AM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
> Hi Matt-
> I got a used engine with 48k miles on it- nice thing about SVX owners is
> that they take really good care of their cars- when I opened it up, oil 
> was
> like new, still had the burnish marks on the cylinder sleeves.  I  ported
> and polished the heads, replaced the stock high compression pistons with 
> low
> compression ones for use with the turbocharger- removed the stock intake
> manifold, welded up a lower profile, and much lighter one, re-ground the
> cams slightly, and built the exhaust up one bend at a time to ensure that 
> it
> would fit in the velocity cowling. Also had to re-locate the alternator 
> for
> the same reason. I must add that I got a lot of help from Jorge Alonzo up 
> at
> Crossflow Aero in Canada- he made the engine mount -which is a work of 
> art-
> and I am using his ECU setup / wiring harness as well as their PSRU.
> Intercooler is from a T-210 that I found on EBay for $43 including the
> pressure relief valve, which I have had reset to 5psi, and I have a Teil
> external waste gate to control the turbo.  Turbo was built by Majestic
> Turbochargers here in Dallas .  Overall, it has been a long road to get to
> this point- I suppose could have purchased a firewall back setup from
> Crosslfow but wouldn't have learned nearly as much, and they are pretty
> proud of their 300+ hp units up there-
> Engine runs ridiculously smooth though- I think I am getting more 
> vibration
> from the fuel pumps...
> PS- other nice thing- I can get an factory new assembled short block from
> Subaru for $3600- might just do that at overhaul time...
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:54 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
> Who built it?
> Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:48 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
> Estimated at 325hp at 4 lbs of boost- I can set the boost up to 16 psi and
> get maybe 500 hp- but I don't want to put that much stress on the engine- 
> I
> am more interested at getting somewhere near 200 hp at 20k feet- and get
> some good top end like  factory turbo model.  There is a guy who is 
> getting
> about 1600 dyno wheel hp for drag racing in Australia out of a more highly
> modified turbocharged SVX- but I would guess that that engine won't last 
> too
> long at cruise power settings.  :-)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:22 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
> Is that the 300 HP motor?
> Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:24 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
> Got a video up on youtube if anyone is interested- second run on my SVX
> motor- Milt Merskey on the camera with commentary- have an intermittent
> ignition coil on #5-  it comes alive at 1:48 and you can tell the
> difference- smoke at the end is from newly installed exhaust wrap ect....
> still have a ton of wiring to do, but this kind of stuff keeps you 
> going...
>
> Alex
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU
> <http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU>
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