REFLECTOR: Crossflow
Brian Michalk
michalk at awpi.com
Tue Dec 4 16:08:05 CST 2007
Andy,
Add me to that list ... sort of.
I went the opposite way. I took my Franklin and added EFI/EI. I
turbocharged it and welded up my own stainless steel exhaust.
Lot's of hours spent there. Hard to believe I had my first engine start
more than a year ago. That damn EFI backup system as easy as it seems
(and it is very simple), is an illusion. It takes a lot of engineering
to end up with a robust product. Any mechanically simple system takes
many hours to get right. Rube Goldbergs are easy. Simple is difficult.
I'm hoping for a final engine run this month before heading to the airport.
Andy Millin wrote:
> Len,
>
> Caveat, caveat, ad infinitim...
>
> Velocity builder Doug Hayes had posted information on his Crossflow
> experience on the reflector back on 8/26/2004.
>
> His story is long, sad, and very frustrating.
>
> I wrote to him off the reflector a couple times. I wanted to check in. I
> was hoping for a good outcome.
>
> I have the complete chain of all email exchanged, if anyone is interested
> contact me off the reflector. Too long to post here.
>
> Last contact was 9 months ago and he still was not ready for engine start
> let alone flight.
>
> What broke my heart most was the experience had nearly, if not completely,
> drained Doug of all desire to finish the project; and he has a completed
> airframe.
>
> I am like Ronnie, I like all types of engines. I like all configurations of
> Velocity. I want a ride in everyone's plane. (I know, shameless)
>
> I can't wait to get my ride in Alex's plane. Yeah, he can go first... but
> ... :)
>
> When it comes to aircraft engines, you have to acknowledge you are in a new
> realm. The money involved adds new perspective. Engines can have market
> values $20K, $30K, $40K, and well above. I just checked Crossflow's site.
> Their low end starts at $26K and goes up to $43.5. It's up to you to decide
> if that's a lot of money.
>
> I'm sorry to say you don't have to go far to find someone that has been
> taken for tens of thousands of dollars. Left to wait for years hoping to
> have an engine delivered.
>
> When it comes to new engine packages, they are very appealing. All the
> builders have a good story and will tell you why they are solid. The desire
> to believe the story can be great (you'll wanna). They will be likable
> people.
>
> I'm not trying to say everyone is a crook. I guess I'm saying do your
> research. Take your time. Check references. A bad decision on a major
> purchase can suck the life and joy out of your project.
>
> Len, I'm feeling a bit pedantic here. But, when you've been around a
> while, you pick up a few things...
>
> FWIW:
>
> I don't know of anyone flying with a Crossflow in a Velocity
>
> Bob Bols (XL/RG) has purchased an engine from Jason Day at Vesta.
> He had not received the engine as of OSH 2007. Love to have an update.
>
> I don't know if anyone has purchased the French rotary engine that
> was on display at OSH...
>
> I don't know if anyone has purchased an Eggenfeller for a Velocity.
>
> I know builders that put money down on the Deltahawk. The good
> people, and they are good people, at Deltahawk are still working on it.
> Over the years I have heard them speak several times. Their work is
> impressive. Unfortunately each presentation put them in final testing,
> final mods before production, and they will be shipping in six months. The
> first time I heard this was in 2003. The last time was at Velocity
> University.
>
> Others have built the engines themselves: Alex, Al Gietzen, Kurt
> Winker, Chris Barber, Dave Bertram, Bill Mulrooney. These gentlemen have
> flown, or are very close to it.
>
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of len.baxter at gm.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:41 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
> Ron.... thanks for the caution !!! Is anyone flying a Crossflow
> sucessfully??
>
>
> Len Baxter
> XLRG-5
>
>
>
>
> "Ron Brown" <romott at roadrunner.com>
> Sent by: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>
> 12/04/2007 02:22 PM
> Please respond to
> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
> To
> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc Subject
> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I had written the following to Alex but since Matt and Len have mentioned
> the Crossflow engines, let me share what I know about Crossflow and to
> caution folks to be VERY CAREFUL before you spend any money. There is
> another Velocity builder out there that ordered and paid for an engine and
> had not received it as of a year or so ago. I hadn't planned on sharing the
> note to Alex with the Reflector crowd, but since at least two of you are
> considering the engine - I didn't want to see anyone else taken to the
> cleaners (Dick paid as much for his FWF Crossflow, 4 cylinder turbo engine
> as I did my Don George Lycasarus IO360.) I have 360 hours of reliable
> flying - Dick is still trying to get his airplane back home.
>
> Alex,
> I wanted to update you on my friend, Dick Healy and his 4 cylinder, turbo
> charged Crossflow Subaru mounted on his Lancair 320 in 2004.
>
> He has spent much of the summer in Canada after trailering his airplane to
> Crossflow to get the engine running right. (He got his engine after many
> delays in 2004). They are on the third engine now (at least one engine was
> fried from running too lean), added an intercooler due to high combustion
> air temps. The third engine has flown once and with winter setting in, it
> may be next year before they can confirm the flyability of the current
> setup.
>
> Just wanted you to know that Jorge may not know all he needs to know about
> the ECU and engine operations. On one of his trips down to NC to tune the
> ECU, he told Dick he did not think it was advisable to provide a cool air
> source to the turbo inlet. You and I both know, the cooler the air, the
> better the engine performance will be (well short of carb icing - but these
> engines ARE fuel injected). I couldn't believe Jorge had advised against
> the cool air scoop. Now, he understands that not only does it need a cool
> air source, it also needs to have an intercooler to keep combustion air down
> to a reasonable temperature.
>
> Good luck with your engine - I feel better about what you are doing versus
> buying a firewall forward (rearward) from Crossflow. They make a pretty
> engine, but I question his engine knowledge. Last I heard, he has sold 60
> engines. None are in reliable flying conditions yet! Dick says there is
> one other flying engine at Crossflow, but it hasn't left the area yet.
>
> Reflector Gang: I love auto engines as much as anyone. I have been a hot
> rodder for years, built several engines including a Chevy small block in a
> 53 Studebaker coupe. But, if you want reliable power for your Velocity, an
> engine that will keep you flying for a long time on a single rebuild, and
> can actually get pretty good fuel burns with a matched set of injector
> nozzles and good EGT/CHT monitoring (I get 8 GPH at 2600 rpm and 155 knots
> in my 173 Elite RG. In a standard wing, you can add at least 15 knots to
> the cruise speed. Oh and I hung my engine and installed all of the FW
> backwards in a little over a month. Everything works as installed
> originally. It starts easily, runs cool, and is very dependable.
>
> Ronnie Brown
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: len.baxter at gm.com <mailto:len.baxter at gm.com>
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:40 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
> Go for it Matt !!.....there are a lot of us who have ( or will have )
> abandoned the 70+ yr old technology represented by Cont and Lyc. I am
> leaning towards a GM LS2, or a 3 rotor rotary, or the crossflow turbo.....
> hard to choose.
>
>
> Len Baxter
> XLRG-5
>
>
>
>
> "Matt Bucko" <mbuc310 at cox.net <mailto:mbuc310 at cox.net> > Sent by:
> reflector-bounces at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org>
>
> 12/04/2007 12:27 PM
>
> Please respond to
> Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>
>
>
> To
> "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org> cc Subject
> Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you. Most impressed here. I have been toying with selling my IO540
> and going with something else. Deltahawk still has to deliver... I have seen
> the Crossflow site before. Nice build.
> Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:27 AM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
> Hi Matt-
> I got a used engine with 48k miles on it- nice thing about SVX owners is
> that they take really good care of their cars- when I opened it up, oil was
> like new, still had the burnish marks on the cylinder sleeves. I ported
> and polished the heads, replaced the stock high compression pistons with low
> compression ones for use with the turbocharger- removed the stock intake
> manifold, welded up a lower profile, and much lighter one, re-ground the
> cams slightly, and built the exhaust up one bend at a time to ensure that it
> would fit in the velocity cowling. Also had to re-locate the alternator for
> the same reason. I must add that I got a lot of help from Jorge Alonzo up at
> Crossflow Aero in Canada- he made the engine mount -which is a work of art-
> and I am using his ECU setup / wiring harness as well as their PSRU.
> Intercooler is from a T-210 that I found on EBay for $43 including the
> pressure relief valve, which I have had reset to 5psi, and I have a Teil
> external waste gate to control the turbo. Turbo was built by Majestic
> Turbochargers here in Dallas . Overall, it has been a long road to get to
> this point- I suppose could have purchased a firewall back setup from
> Crosslfow but wouldn't have learned nearly as much, and they are pretty
> proud of their 300+ hp units up there-
> Engine runs ridiculously smooth though- I think I am getting more vibration
> from the fuel pumps...
> PS- other nice thing- I can get an factory new assembled short block from
> Subaru for $3600- might just do that at overhaul time...
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:54 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
> Who built it?
> Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:48 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
> Estimated at 325hp at 4 lbs of boost- I can set the boost up to 16 psi and
> get maybe 500 hp- but I don't want to put that much stress on the engine- I
> am more interested at getting somewhere near 200 hp at 20k feet- and get
> some good top end like factory turbo model. There is a guy who is getting
> about 1600 dyno wheel hp for drag racing in Australia out of a more highly
> modified turbocharged SVX- but I would guess that that engine won't last too
> long at cruise power settings. :-)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Matt Bucko
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:22 AM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
>
> Is that the 300 HP motor?
> Matt
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of Alex Balic
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:24 PM
> To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video
> Got a video up on youtube if anyone is interested- second run on my SVX
> motor- Milt Merskey on the camera with commentary- have an intermittent
> ignition coil on #5- it comes alive at 1:48 and you can tell the
> difference- smoke at the end is from newly installed exhaust wrap ect....
> still have a ton of wiring to do, but this kind of stuff keeps you going...
>
> Alex
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU
> <http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU>
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