REFLECTOR: Crossflow

len.baxter at gm.com len.baxter at gm.com
Tue Dec 4 15:32:36 CST 2007


Whew.... you were on a roll , Andy!!!!  Can't dissagree with you on the 
Crossflow or for the Vesta for that matter.   But, the fact remains that a 
properly executed "auto conversion" can be  an awsome powerplant for an 
experimental.  Check out      << Robinson V8 powered aircraft >>    he has 
been flying an LS2 V8 in an old Seabee for quite awhile.  And those you 
mentioned who did it themselves seem happy ..... especially Al  Gietzen 
with his rotary.     I  am very fortunate since I will not have to make my 
final decision for a year or two, and I hope by then more data is 
available on sucessful auto conversions.


Len Baxter
XLRG-5



"Andy Millin" <amillin at sbcglobal.net> 
Sent by: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
12/04/2007 03:57 PM
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Subject
REFLECTOR: Crossflow






Len,

Caveat, caveat, ad infinitim...

Velocity builder Doug Hayes had posted information on his Crossflow
experience on the reflector back on 8/26/2004.

His story is long, sad, and very frustrating.

I wrote to him off the reflector a couple times.  I wanted to check in.  I
was hoping for a good outcome.

I have the complete chain of all email exchanged, if anyone is interested
contact me off the reflector.  Too long to post here.

Last contact was 9 months ago and he still was not ready for engine start
let alone flight.

What broke my heart most was the experience had nearly, if not completely,
drained Doug of all desire to finish the project; and he has a completed
airframe.

I am like Ronnie, I like all types of engines.  I like all configurations 
of
Velocity.  I want a ride in everyone's plane.  (I know, shameless)

I can't wait to get my ride in Alex's plane.  Yeah, he can go first... but
... :)

When it comes to aircraft engines, you have to acknowledge you are in a 
new
realm.  The money involved adds new perspective.  Engines can have market
values $20K, $30K, $40K, and well above.   I just checked Crossflow's 
site.
Their low end starts at $26K and goes up to $43.5.  It's up to you to 
decide
if that's a lot of money. 

I'm sorry to say you don't have to go far to find someone that has been
taken for tens of thousands of dollars.  Left to wait for years hoping to
have an engine delivered.

When it comes to new engine packages, they are very appealing.  All the
builders have a good story and will tell you why they are solid.  The 
desire
to believe the story can be great (you'll wanna).  They will be likable
people.

I'm not trying to say everyone is a crook.  I guess I'm saying do your
research.  Take your time.  Check references.  A bad decision on a major
purchase can suck the life and joy out of your project.

Len,             I'm feeling a bit pedantic here.  But, when you've been 
around a
while, you pick up a few things...

FWIW:

                 I don't know of anyone flying with a Crossflow in a 
Velocity

                 Bob Bols (XL/RG) has purchased an engine from Jason Day 
at Vesta.
He had not received the engine as of OSH 2007.  Love to have an update.

                 I don't know if anyone has purchased the French rotary 
engine that
was on display at OSH...

                 I don't know if anyone has purchased an Eggenfeller for a 
Velocity.

                 I know builders that put money down on the Deltahawk. The 
good
people, and they are good people, at Deltahawk are still working on it.
Over the years I have heard them speak several times.  Their work is
impressive.  Unfortunately each presentation put them in final testing,
final mods before production, and they will be shipping in six months. The
first time I heard this was in 2003.  The last time was at Velocity
University.

                 Others have built the engines themselves:  Alex, Al 
Gietzen, Kurt
Winker, Chris Barber, Dave Bertram, Bill Mulrooney.  These gentlemen have
flown, or are very close to it.

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of len.baxter at gm.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:41 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video


Ron.... thanks for the caution !!!     Is anyone flying a Crossflow
sucessfully?? 


Len Baxter
XLRG-5 




"Ron Brown" <romott at roadrunner.com>
Sent by: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org 

12/04/2007 02:22 PM
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Subject
Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video

 




I had written the following to Alex but since Matt and Len have mentioned
the Crossflow engines, let me share what I know about Crossflow and to
caution folks to be VERY CAREFUL before you spend any money.  There is
another Velocity builder out there that ordered and paid for an engine and
had not received it as of a year or so ago.  I hadn't planned on sharing 
the
note to Alex with the Reflector crowd, but since at least two of you are
considering the engine - I didn't want to see anyone else taken to the
cleaners (Dick paid as much for his FWF Crossflow, 4 cylinder turbo engine
as I did my Don George Lycasarus IO360.)  I have 360 hours of reliable
flying - Dick is still trying to get his airplane back home. 
 
Alex,
I wanted to update you on my friend, Dick Healy and his 4 cylinder, turbo
charged Crossflow Subaru mounted on his Lancair 320 in 2004. 
 
He has spent much of the summer in Canada after trailering his airplane to
Crossflow to get the engine running right. (He got his engine after many
delays in 2004).  They are on the third engine now (at least one engine 
was
fried from running too lean), added an intercooler due to high combustion
air temps.  The third engine has flown once and with winter setting in, it
may be next year before they can confirm the flyability of the current
setup. 
 
Just wanted you to know that Jorge may not know all he needs to know about
the ECU and engine operations.  On one of his trips down to NC to tune the
ECU, he told Dick he did not think it was advisable to provide a cool air
source to the turbo inlet.  You and I both know, the cooler the air, the
better the engine performance will be (well short of carb icing - but 
these
engines ARE fuel injected).  I couldn't believe Jorge had advised against
the cool air scoop.  Now, he understands that not only does it need a cool
air source, it also needs to have an intercooler to keep combustion air 
down
to a reasonable temperature. 
 
Good luck with your engine - I feel better about what you are doing versus
buying a firewall forward (rearward) from Crossflow.  They make a pretty
engine, but I question his engine knowledge.  Last I heard, he has sold 60
engines.  None are in reliable flying conditions yet!  Dick says there is
one other flying engine at Crossflow, but it hasn't left the area yet. 
 
Reflector Gang:  I love auto engines as much as anyone.  I have been a hot
rodder for years, built several engines including a Chevy small block in a
53 Studebaker coupe.  But, if you want reliable power for your Velocity, 
an
engine that will keep you flying for a long time on a single rebuild, and
can actually get pretty good fuel burns with a matched set of injector
nozzles and good EGT/CHT monitoring (I get 8 GPH at 2600 rpm and 155 knots
in my 173 Elite RG.  In a standard wing, you can add at least 15 knots to
the cruise speed.  Oh and I hung my engine and installed all of the FW
backwards in a little over a month.  Everything works as installed
originally.  It starts easily, runs cool, and is very dependable. 
 
Ronnie Brown
----- Original Message -----
From: len.baxter at gm.com <mailto:len.baxter at gm.com>
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video 


Go for it Matt !!.....there are a lot of us who have ( or will have )
abandoned the 70+ yr old technology represented by  Cont  and Lyc.   I am
leaning towards a GM LS2, or a 3 rotor rotary, or the crossflow turbo.....
hard to choose. 


Len Baxter
XLRG-5 




"Matt Bucko" <mbuc310 at cox.net <mailto:mbuc310 at cox.net> > Sent by:
reflector-bounces at tvbf.org <mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> 

12/04/2007 12:27 PM 

Please respond to
Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>



To
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Subject
Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video


 





Thank you. Most impressed here.  I have been toying with selling my IO540
and going with something else. Deltahawk still has to deliver... I have 
seen
the Crossflow site before.  Nice build. 
Matt 
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:27 AM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video

Hi Matt- 
I got a used engine with 48k miles on it- nice thing about SVX owners is
that they take really good care of their cars- when I opened it up, oil 
was
like new, still had the burnish marks on the cylinder sleeves.  I  ported
and polished the heads, replaced the stock high compression pistons with 
low
compression ones for use with the turbocharger- removed the stock intake
manifold, welded up a lower profile, and much lighter one, re-ground the
cams slightly, and built the exhaust up one bend at a time to ensure that 
it
would fit in the velocity cowling. Also had to re-locate the alternator 
for
the same reason. I must add that I got a lot of help from Jorge Alonzo up 
at
Crossflow Aero in Canada- he made the engine mount -which is a work of 
art-
and I am using his ECU setup / wiring harness as well as their PSRU.
Intercooler is from a T-210 that I found on EBay for $43 including the
pressure relief valve, which I have had reset to 5psi, and I have a Teil
external waste gate to control the turbo.  Turbo was built by Majestic
Turbochargers here in Dallas .  Overall, it has been a long road to get to
this point- I suppose could have purchased a firewall back setup from
Crosslfow but wouldn't have learned nearly as much, and they are pretty
proud of their 300+ hp units up there- 
Engine runs ridiculously smooth though- I think I am getting more 
vibration
from the fuel pumps... 
PS- other nice thing- I can get an factory new assembled short block from
Subaru for $3600- might just do that at overhaul time... 
 
Alex 
 



________________________________



From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Bucko
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:54 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video 
 
Who built it? 
Matt 
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:48 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video 
Estimated at 325hp at 4 lbs of boost- I can set the boost up to 16 psi and
get maybe 500 hp- but I don't want to put that much stress on the engine- 
I
am more interested at getting somewhere near 200 hp at 20k feet- and get
some good top end like  factory turbo model.  There is a guy who is 
getting
about 1600 dyno wheel hp for drag racing in Australia out of a more highly
modified turbocharged SVX- but I would guess that that engine won't last 
too
long at cruise power settings.  :-) 
 



________________________________



From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Bucko
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:22 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video 
 
Is that the 300 HP motor? 
Matt 
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:24 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: REFLECTOR: Subaru run video 
Got a video up on youtube if anyone is interested- second run on my SVX
motor- Milt Merskey on the camera with commentary- have an intermittent
ignition coil on #5-  it comes alive at 1:48 and you can tell the
difference- smoke at the end is from newly installed exhaust wrap ect....
still have a ton of wiring to do, but this kind of stuff keeps you 
going... 
 
Alex 
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU
<http://youtube.com/watch?v=IsbPcWBX2RU>
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