REFLECTOR: ENGINE OUT MYSTERY SOLVED

Terry Miles terrence_miles at hotmail.com
Wed Aug 22 13:00:35 CDT 2007 

Tom,

I think we can all learn from what happened to you and what Pat Shea was
saying too.  Did you have a battery failure as part of this?  Could it be
that a power or ground wire on the EI componentary went out?  I have a Jeff
Rose and there are 3 components that need separate power and ground.  The
coils, the control box, and the map sensor.  How did you determine the
power-backup transfer device to be at fault?  I think it is good to look at
all three whether it was prop (rotation) or ignition, or fuel as your power
loss source.

Thanks for helping us all understand this better.

Oh, and great job getting it down safely...that's what always matters the
most.

Terry


-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Martino
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:37 AM
To: Velocity List
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: ENGINE OUT MYSTERY SOLVED

I had the electronic ignition run through it.  The Power Guard is activated
whhen you switch it on.  I switched it through my main master switch.  Then
it is basically in "standby" mode unless the main battery goes down ... Then
it is supposed to seamlessly switch over.


On 8/22/07 7:40 AM, "Brainard, Jerry" <Jerry.Brainard at anthem.com> wrote:

> Tom,
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but were you running all of the power through the
> Power Guard, or did it have switching built in to the component?
> 
> 
> - jerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Martino
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 12:46 AM
> To: Velocity List
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: ENGINE OUT MYSTERY SOLVED
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Electronic ignitions may only draw 3 to 4 amps ... But they need DC
> power to operate.  If DC power is interrupted in any way ... No spark!
> There are numerous ways for power to be interrupted ... Any routing and
> connection from power to ground will do it.  My electrical panel did not
> fail ... The power source for the ignition modules failed (they were
> routed through the Power Guard).
> 
> Maybe ... Something did fail that caused the Power Guard to fail ... But
> so far we can find no problems.  Power is going into the Power Guard ...
> But not coming back out the other end.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts and sentiments.  With enough help ... I'll get
> it figured out for sure.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> On 8/21/07 10:32 PM, "steve korney" <s_korney at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hi Tom...
>> 
>> I'm sorry for you loss as many are... I don't think manufacturers sell
> 
>> products they think will fail... Most design and build the best they
> can...
>> There is always a chance a component will stop working properly... If
>> I'm not mistaken, you said the power source failed, which in turn
>> caused  the electronic ignition to stop working... I haven't heard of
>> any electrical panels to fail before... Maybe something else caused a
>> problem with the panel... Most electronic ignitions only draw about 3
> or 4 amps max...
>> 
>> 
>> Best... Steve
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----Original Message Follows----
>> From: Tom Martino <tmartino at troubleshooter.com>
>> Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> To: Velocity List <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: ENGINE OUT MYSTERY SOLVED
>> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:02:07 -0600
>> 
>> My opinion of dual electronic ignitions has changed drastically.  When
> 
>> you think about the routing of electricity to get spark ... A simple
>> toggle switch that turns on the module could build up carbon and
>> disrupt the flow of electricity thereby interrupting your spark.  In
>> fact, every connection from power to ground is a potential can area of
> failure!
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/21/07 7:12 PM, "Pat Shea" <xl340hp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Tom,
>>> 
>>> Sorry about your incident.
>>> 
>>> There was some discussions about EI's a couple of years ago on the
>>> Reflector. I just about got my head taken off for suggesting that
>>> electronic ignition may not be as reliable as many hope/suggest. I
>>> was reporting on a non-velocity incident similar to yours due to an
>>> EI issue - that plane came down too.
>>> 
>>> Since then I have discovered EI problems are not all that uncommon.
>>> Most of the problems tend to be in the related sub-systems/wiring,
>>> and not in the solid state electronics of the EI. Since installation
>>> is different on literally every homebuilt, I suspect this is
>>> contributing factor.
>>> 
>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm aware mags fail all the time too - more often
> 
>>> then EI's. However, I don't recall ever hearing about two mags
>>> failing during the same flight (although it's probably happened). As
>>> you said, ignition is critical. I also realize we all feel our
>>> installations are bullet proof - and many are on paper...
>>> 
>>> Currently I'm running two mags. I'd like to switch to one mag and one
> 
>>> EI. But that's me - I have steam gauges and an EFIS...
>>> 
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- Tom Martino <tmartino at troubleshooter.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> After close inspection ... I found the problem.
>>>> 
>>>> First the good news ... the engine on my Velocity is perfect!  It
>>>> cranks and fires up with fuel and oil pressures where they should
>>>> be.
>>>> 
>>>> The prop governor did not fail.
>>>> 
>>>> And the is minimal airframe damage.
>>>> 
>>>> So what went wrong?
>>>> 
>>>> The power source for the electronic ignition went bad.
>>>> 
>>>> I had a primary battery and secondary battery and used Wayne Lanza's
> 
>>>> "Power Guard" ... To quote his website ... "The Fail safe secondary
>>>> power control".
>>>> 
>>>> Well, this fail safe module failed and caused power interruptions to
> 
>>>> my ignition modules.
>>>> 
>>>> As it turns out ... I would've been better off NOT to use a
>>>> secondary power source and not to use Lanza's controller.  The
>>>> chances of the alternator and battery going out at the same time are
> 
>>>> remote.  Even if the alternator failed ... The battery could keep
>>>> the engine running for quite some time.
>>>> And if you wanted a backup battery for extended power ... Simply put
> 
>>>> one in with a mechanical switch.
>>>> 
>>>> The thing that puzzles me is that the electronic ignition is
>>>> critical ...
>>>> And the very unit that was supposed to preserve my spark, ended up
>>>> interrupting it.
>>>> 
>>>> I am in the process of having it diagnosed to find out where the
>>>> unit failed.  But FAILED it did.
>>>> 
>>>> Gee ... I lost almost $200,000 on this ... Think I can get my $100
>>>> back on it?
>>>> 
>>>> Tom Martino
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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