REFLECTOR: Fire Retardant Paint
Hiroo Umeno
humeno at microsoft.com
Sat Apr 14 22:26:52 CDT 2007
Reading that description of the product...
It does not say anything about protection against heat that is generated by something that is already burning nearby. I somehow thought that the real problem was not so much as the glass catching on fire but the heat of burning oil or fuel weakening the structures around critical airframe components like wing spar, wingroot, etc.
I understand that the fire retardant paint will resist the flames from spreading but does it offer protection against heat from burning oil / fuel?
Hiroo
________________________________
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:18 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fire Retardant Paint
wicks carries what looks to be a good product.
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=7574/index.html
Scott
Chuck Harbert wrote:
Hiroo, I got mine a long time ago from AC Spruce, but they don't sell it
anymore. There's a company ( Intl Fire Resistant Systems in N. CA
http://www.firefree.com/customer1.htm ) that makes fire retardant
(intumescent) paint called FF88 that sells for $63/gal + shpg. Normally they
sell in 5 gal pail, but sometimes they have 1 gal cans. It's FM and UL
approved and can be sprayed or brushed on to most everything incl fiberglas.
-------------------------------
Where did you get your fire-retardant paint? Do they need to be sprayed on?
Or can they brushed on?
----- Original Message -----
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Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 35, Issue 45
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Today's Topics:
1. SuperSwitch starter control (Chuck Harbert)
2. Re: Turbo heat shielding and fires (Scott Derrick)
3. Re: Turbo heat shielding and fires (Hiroo Umeno)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:20:21 -0700
From: "Chuck Harbert" <c.harbert at comcast.net><mailto:c.harbert at comcast.net>
Subject: REFLECTOR: SuperSwitch starter control
To: <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <028501c77ddf$421af370$656da843 at 9B6B411>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Anybody know anything about the new Lamar Technologies (
http://www.lamartech.com/ ) Master Control Switch called SuperSwitch? I
saw
an ad GA News. It's all solid state and is smaller/lighter that a std AC
starter solenoid. It is also programable for max current and resets
automatically. It is for the experimental market, and is sold thru std AC
parts distributors. Don't know cost. They also make lightweight starters
and
electrical parts for the big jets.
This might handle the concern Dave had about a massive short to ground.
----------------------------------------
My theory is that I can turn off the battery contactor (in the nose, near
the batteries) if the #2 wire should short to ground somewhere between
the
battery and the starter.
Dave Scharfenberg
On Jan 29, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Scott Derrick wrote:
Terry,
This conversation about protecting the "big" wire that runs to the rear
of
the plane to power the starter and to provide for the alternators charge
circuit got me interested in possibly protecting it with a big fuse or
breaker. 200 Amp or so... Starters draw a huge current.
I'm not talking about protection for the alternator, this being the short
#10/8 or so wire that connects the alternators charge circuit(B lead) to
the
supply side of the main starter relay(big wire from main relay to starter
relay). That small wire should have a fuse or resettable breaker. I
think
a
fuse would be the right choice.
I searched the Aero-Electric list and found this... Its not for a canard
but
it is about a battery lead from the rear of a tractor style airplane to
the
firewall. Similar application..
Bob and everyone else ...
When considering a ground fault, what is best used to protect a #4 cable
run, from the rear battery, in an RV, while powering a bus?
What is best used to protect this same #4 cable, when it is in parallel
with
the front battery and charging current is flowing to the rear batt?
Thanks ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Fat wires in light aircraft are not, as a rule, "protected".
If you study the wiring diagrams for light airplanes going
back to the first generator and battery installations
(mid 40's), things like fuses and circuit breakers do not
appear in the fat feeders. Let's see what the certified guys
design to by reading from FAR23.
Sec. 23.1357 Circuit protective devices.
First, keep in mind that I quote this document only as a means
of illustrating thought processes for crafting the most trouble
free system . . . and in no way am I suggesting that these
words be treated as a "requirement" that should flow down into
the OBAM aircraft community.
(a) Protective devices, such as fuses or circuit breakers, must be
installed in all electrical circuits other than--
(1) Main circuits of starter motors used during starting only; and
(2) Circuits in which no hazard is presented by their omission.
I can tell you that these paragraphs describe the portion of the
architecture you are asking about. Fat feeders in light aircraft
are seldom if ever involved in a hard fault situation because of
the extra care we take in securing such wires and thoughtfulness
for installation to keep them clear of moving parts that might
pose a threat.
When a fat feeder suffers compromised insulation, it's generally
against thin sheet metal and the fault tends to be "self clearing",
i.e., it take a lot of force designed to drive the faulted conductor
to ground such that the conductor is now at-risk for catastrophic
failure due to high currents. Relatively light, passing contacts
tend to burn open with little or no effect on the rest of the system.
(b) A protective device for a circuit essential to flight safety may not
be
used to protect any other circuit.
Common sense. A fuse or breaker for every accessory. Don't stack
multiple accessories on a single breaker/fuse whether "essential"
or not. Of course, this begs for a definition of "essential" which
is a topic for a who chapter. The government position on aviation
is to build ever more goodies into the essential category . . .
As I've described in Chapter 17 . . . it's up to YOU to decide
what's "essential" based on your understanding of personal
and mechanical limits based on proposed missions.
(c) Each resettable circuit protective device ("trip free" device in
which
the tripping mechanism cannot be overridden by the operating control)
must
be
designed so that--
(1) A manual operation is required to restore service after tripping; and
(2) If an overload or circuit fault exists, the device will open the
circuit regardless of the position of the operating control.
Common sense.
(d) If the ability to reset a circuit breaker or replace a fuse is
essential to safety in flight, that circuit breaker or fuse must be so
located and identified that it can be readily reset or replaced in
flight.
Yup, good thing to do. Now, I've suggested for years that there's
no good reason for ANY single piece of equipment to become so
"essential" that it qualifies for special treatment of access to
fuses or breakers. There are hundreds more things that cause
an accessory to fail that DOES NOT open a fuse compared to
failures that DO open a fuse. Focusing on the ability to restore
a fuse or breaker circuit is non-productive. These are
a tiny proportion of all failures and likelihood of getting
a system back by replacing the fuse is nil.
It stands to reason then that if any one SYSTEM is so
desirable, then there had better be a backup SYSTEM.
Once this condition is achieved, there is no reason for
making ANY fuse or breaker accessible in flight.
(e) For fuses identified as replaceable in flight--
(1) There must be one spare of each rating or 50 percent
spare fuses of each rating, whichever is greater; and
(2) The spare fuse(s) must be readily accessible to any
required pilot.
As thoughtful designers and users of OBAM aircraft, we're
able to craft flight systems that completely negate any
reason to observe this requirement . . . we can design
so that there is no need to reach any fuse/breaker because
there are no singular, "essential" systems likely to be
resurrected by replacing a fuse or resetting a breaker.
This is the general answer on circuit protection . . . the
short answer to your specific question is that experience
and common sense have shown that there is no value in
adding "protection" to long battery feeders (other than
the locally situated battery contactor). This includes
the generally smaller but still quite robust feeder from
the cranking circuit to the main bus.
Bob. . .
--
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The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion
cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation
it
produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure.
Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:49:59 -0600
From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net><mailto:scott at tnstaafl.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Turbo heat shielding and fires
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:53:02 -0700
From: Hiroo Umeno <humeno at microsoft.com><mailto:humeno at microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Turbo heat shielding and fires
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID:
<9F59E90E6E525B40BB7B59BD72271CF752DAD1252D at NA-EXMSG-C103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com><mailto:9F59E90E6E525B40BB7B59BD72271CF752DAD1252D at NA-EXMSG-C103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Chuck,
Where did you get your fire-retardant paint? Do they need to be sprayed
on? Or can they brushed on?
It seems like I'll need to buid myself a little "fire alarm" just in
case...
Thanks.
Hiroo
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harbert
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:25 AM
To: reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Subject: REFLECTOR: Turbo heat shielding and fires
Like Sid, I also had an engine fire (actually 2) that lead to emergency
landings. In both cases, I had an engine oil cooler that failed. The
cooler located below the engine (turbo Mazda 20B) sprayed oil on the hot
exhaust.
Fortunately, they both were at takeoff and the controller told me I had
smoke coming out the back. On the first, the engine continued to run, so I
landed after a quick course reversal (9K' runway), but on the second, the
engine quit just after gear up and I was on crosswind. I was able to turn
back to the field, but not get my main gear down, so I did a partial belly
landing (it takes awhile to get that main gear down and you sink rate
triples). In both cases, the fire went out when the engine quit (oil pump
quit).
What prevented the plane from burning up was the fire retardant paint I
put on the inside of the cowl and in the wing root. I now have a temp
alarm near the exit of the cowl. I have considered also installing a small
video camera that looks into the engine compartment or at the cowl exit
(preferred). I understand they're cheap and light, but I don't know how
they would stand up to the vibration. I also bot some small mirrors and
considered putting one in the inboard side of the winglet, but it has to
be big to see it from the cockpit.
I also spent some time dealing with turbo heat which I think you really
can't simulate under ground run conditions. The turbo and exhaust pipe
were ceramic coated, but I also had to construct a stainless steel shroud
(1/2 inch away from turbo) cover to keep from blistering the fire
retardant paint on the cowls (about 250F, I think). Radiant (line of
sight) heat from even a normalized engine (atmospheric) can really heat up
the surrounding materials. I also put a flat SS shield on the inboard side
of the turbo to prevent radiant heat transfer to the compressor side. And
finally, I directed outside air onto the turbo and exhaust pipe, so that
it would exit the cowl quickly. During idle and taxi, and after landing,
the cowls got very warm (too hot to keep your hand on), so I had to put in
top vents.
Turbos are designed for up to 2,000F temps which is red/white hot, so you
better make sure you have this kind of temp under control.
I'm going to try to use the insulated turbo shields that strap onto the
turbo on my current installation which I think should also work. You can
buy these for almost any turbo at the speed shops or mfgs.
Someone told me a couple years ago of a Velocity that was flying up the
west coast that had a fire that burned quite awhile unknown to the pilot.
I believe he said the crashed when the spar/wing root failed. I guess
since I fireproofed the firewall, cowls, and wing roots, I'd leave the
engine running until I was sure of a safe landing. Another story was of a
hot oil leak that sent fumes into the cabin thru the floor oil/wire duct
that cause a fatal crash. I think if you seal the openings from the engine
compartment, you shouldn't get smoke/fire into the cabin which is more
important than the fire.
Hope you all learned something from my bad experiences.
Chuck H
----- Original Message -----
From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector-request at tvbf.org>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 7:34 AM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 35, Issue 43
Send Reflector mailing list submissions to reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Panel Changes (Craig and Denise Woolston)
2. oil temp problems solved (Tom)
3. Re: oil temp problems solved (Douglas Holub)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:51:12 -0800
From: "Craig and Denise Woolston" <cdwoolston at sbcglobal.net><mailto:cdwoolston at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Panel Changes
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
<reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <200704131255.l3DCtJWF006216 at dax.awpi.com><mailto:200704131255.l3DCtJWF006216 at dax.awpi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not sure what Scott B reason is but mine would be #2 allows you to
quickly tell what attitude instrument is no good. With only two, you
have to guess, with three it's a democracy.
Craig
_____
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
On Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:56 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Panel Changes
Scott,
thanks for your input. Can you say why #2 over #1?
A wrinkle in the equation is that the ILS CDI can not be used by the GPS.
They don't speak the same language. I really hate this widespread use
of proprietary buss's in the aviation world. If desktop computers
did that, they would still cost $10,000, which come to think about
it, thats what aviation computers cost!
thanks, Scott D
Scott Baker wrote:
For IFR ops, I think I would vote for Possibility #2.
Put the CDI on an A:B switch for Nav 1<>Nav #2 (unless the Dynon EFIS
can display one of the Nav's).
SB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Derrick" <mailto:scott at tnstaafl.net><mailto:scott at tnstaafl.net>
<scott at tnstaafl.net><mailto:scott at tnstaafl.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org> <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:17 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Panel Changes
I'm going to be installing two Dynon instruments. One an EFIS an the
other an EMS(Engine Monitor System). I have 8 3.125 instruments in an
extended
6 pack configuration. The standard 6 pack plus two CDI's to the
right, one for the GPS the other for the VOR/ILS. Two rows of 4
instruments.
Because of the size of the Dynon units the easiest place to install
them is where the CDI units are.
So I now have 8 holes and 10 instruments. 2 have to go. I'm looking
for input as to which two instruments to ditch and why you think so...
First some info on the existing instruments.
1.) The AI & DG are integral to my auto pilot so for now they must stay.
This also gives me redundancy for gyro instruments, one set vacuum the
other electric.
2.) The GPS course will be displayed on the Dynon when the EFIS or EMS
is in HSI mode, but they don't have a course indicator when it is in
AI mode.. Not sure when they expect to get that added.
3.) The VOR/ILS can not be displayed on the Dynon, incompatible
interface.
I have attached an image of what the panel looks like and possible
layouts I have come up with. I welcome any comments..
thanks, Scott
--
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The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public
opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The
agitation it produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep
the waters pure.
Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:491
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:34:56 -0400
From: Tom <tomcat05 at comcast.net><mailto:tomcat05 at comcast.net>
Subject: REFLECTOR: oil temp problems solved
To: reflector at tvbf.org<mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <461F8700.4060005 at comcast.net><mailto:461F8700.4060005 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
After several attempts at making the one oil cooler scenario work, I
gave up and added a 2nd cooler-steady temps dropped from 240 to 195. I
placed the 2nd cooler on the upper engine baffle (strongly braced). I
made a 3" tee (45 degree) out of aluminum tubing and share the ram air
for the induction with the duct for the new cooler. Flew plane this
morning and the manifold pressure appears to be the same, guess the
ram air was a bit of overkill in stock configuration. I do believe
that the vernatherm is the main issue in causing higher temps. The
extra plumbing intrinsic to the Velocity design increases oil pressure
and at cruise speed keeps the vernatherm partially open. When you pull
power and the pressure decreases you can see an immediate drop in
temps. Although I did install a new vernatherm I've saved the old one
to modify for testing. While I was at it, I sealed up the baffling and
the CHTs dropped from 375 to 320. Life is good! Now I can start
playing with the avionics (after Sun-N-Fun).
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:34:41 -0500
From: "Douglas Holub" <doug.holub at tx.rr.com><mailto:doug.holub at tx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: oil temp problems solved
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <00c801c77dd8$df4a1290$6a01a8c0 at Workshop>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I would love to see a picture of your ram air scoop, so that I don't
make mine too big, also.
Doug Holub
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <tomcat05 at comcast.net><mailto:tomcat05 at comcast.net>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org><mailto:reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:34 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR: oil temp problems solved
After several attempts at making the one oil cooler scenario work, I
gave up and added a 2nd cooler-steady temps dropped from 240 to 195.
I placed the 2nd cooler on the upper engine baffle (strongly braced).
I made a 3" tee (45 degree) out of aluminum tubing and share the ram
air for the induction with the duct for the new cooler. Flew plane
this morning and the manifold pressure appears to be the same, guess
the ram air was a bit of overkill in stock configuration. I do
believe that the vernatherm is the main issue in causing higher
temps. The extra plumbing intrinsic to the Velocity design increases
oil pressure and at cruise speed keeps the vernatherm partially open.
When you pull power and the pressure decreases you can see an
immediate drop in temps. Although I did install a new vernatherm I've
saved the old one to modify for testing. While I was at it, I sealed
up the baffling and the CHTs dropped from 375 to 320. Life is good!
Now I can start playing with the avionics (after Sun-N-Fun).
_______________________________________________
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