REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination Question

[Greg Poole]

I saw Alan's moulds in action & the results first hand - not impressed! ....
exceptionally nice guy that I would be happy to call a friend....but instead
of the finished product emerging uniform and smooth as you would expect,
they needed heaps of remedial work including substantial filling. Anybody
grinding them back would have found a heap of filler covering both wet and
dry resin areas.

Having said this, I have never heard of any structural problem with Alan's
wings and I believe some people including Alan really gave them curry in the
air!


Greg in Sydney


-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Ron Brown
Sent: Tuesday, 7 March 2006 10:40 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination Question

Larry said they were Alan Shaws.  I have the same thing on my Shaw wings. 
One delam about 4-5 inch diameter, 3 others that were smaller 1-2".  I also 
had about 50 little 1/8" holes come up in my leading edges after running 
through a hard rain returning from Oshkosh in 2003.  Thank goodness I 
decided to fly in prime first.

My understanding is that Alan had these pressure molds that were supposed to

make the skins lay down better, but I think the molds had a hard time 
meeting the foam in some places and hence the delams???

Ronnie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Harbert" <c.harbert at comcast.net>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 5:40 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination Question


> Larry, that seems like a pretty big delamination. Do you know how it 
> occured? Did something drop on it, or push against it, or did it get too 
> hot by accident? Depending on what happened can affect how you fix it. You

> might have to open it up if it has a deep depression in order to fill it 
> with the right materials. I accidently had a heat light fall on the bottom

> of the fuselage and melt a 6" round area. I opened the outer skin and 
> removed the burned foam, them made up a mixture of mostly balloon, cabo, 
> milled fiber, and resin to fill it. Finally I reattached the skin with a 
> mixture of the same stuff without any ballons (plus a layer of fine bid), 
> and you can't tell where it was, and it's solid.
>
> If there's no obvious cause, I'd be wondering if I could have other 
> delaminations. Whose fast build wings are they?
>
> Chuck H
> --------------------------
> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure of
> the "Fix"  process;
>
> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing surface....a
> single bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in length, but almost
> round.
>
>
>
> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
> bubble
> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or missing
> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be
> clear?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>
>
>
> Larry Lambert
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
> To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 11:57 AM
> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 22, Issue 18
>
>
>> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. RE:  Gear dump valve (Al Gietzen)
>>   2.  Wing Delamination question (Milehitaz at aol.com)
>>   3. RE:  Wing Delamination question (Alex Balic)
>>   4. Re:  Wing Delamination question (Jeffrey Clough)
>>   5. RE:  Wing Delamination question (Al Gietzen)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 10:26:53 -0800
>> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Gear dump valve
>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <000001c64082$614b78a0$6400a8c0 at BigAl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe there is a lot more pressure across the opening valve just as 
>> you
>> crack the valve.  After all, 1500 psi or so is used to raise the gear. 
>> The
>> pressure switch cuts the pump off, but there is still 1500 psi there. 
>> The
>> pump will run again when this pressure drops a few pounds.  Now, if you
>> slowly open the valve until the gear starts to drop, you are bleeding
>> 1300-1500 psi fluid across the ball and seat.
>>
>>
>>
>> The actual pressure required at the cylinder to raise the gear during
>> travel, or hold at some intermediate point, is about 150 psi (more at the
>> start to unlatch the linkage).  You can compute this based on the area of
>> the piston and the force required on the cables. The pressure out of the
>> pump during the travel is about 600 psi; almost all of which is spent on 
>> the
>> overcoming the pressure drop in the too-small ¼" lines and fittings.
>>
>>
>>
>> The "Up" pressure switch opens the circuit at a pressure of about 1050 
>> psi;
>> not far below the internal bypass limit in the pump.  If you hear the 
>> pump
>> "squeal" a bit at the end of either stroke, you know the internal bypass
>> pressure is being exceeded.  If the gear is driven to the end of the 
>> stroke,
>> the peak pressure in the system at the end of the stroke can end up a bit
>> higher.  So the valve can see quite high pressure during the first tiny
>> amount of flow (the pressure will drop very quickly) from the end of the
>> stroke, but when opening it from intermediate points in the travel the
>> pressure is relatively low.
>>
>>
>>
>> The pressure at the cylinder during the down travel is very low as the 
>> gear
>> will drop by gravity.  The pressure out of the pump is 250 - 300 psi; 
>> again
>> spent forcing the flow through the small lines. The "down" pressure 
>> switch
>> opens at about 550 psi, but because cylinder is already at the end of the
>> stroke when the pressure reaches that point, the slight delay in the 
>> relays,
>> and the inertia of the pump carries it enough to drive the pressure up to
>> the bypass pressure, somewhere around 1100 as I recall.
>>
>>
>>
>> This issue may be whether it is harder on the valve to release the 
>> pressure
>> than it is to let it set for long periods of time holding the pressure.
>>
>>
>>
>> It was during all these measurements, and discussions with the makers of 
>> the
>> switches, that I learned that the screws at the top of the pressure 
>> switches
>> are not for adjusting the pressure at which the switch 'opens', but 
>> adjust
>> the bandwidth - the pressure difference between the 'make' and 'break'
>> points. This can influence the turn-off point but more directly 
>> influences
>> the point at which the pump turns back on; which can determine whether 
>> the
>> pump "cycles", or not.
>>
>>
>>
>> At least this is what I learned doing measurements on my system; which 
>> isn't
>> necessarily the same as someone else's.  And I'm sure this is more detail
>> than anyone wants to know.
>>
>>
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 14:03:46 EST
>> From: Milehitaz at aol.com
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>> To: reflector at tvbf.org
>> Message-ID: <204.11e66cab.313c9012 at aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>> This might be a second post... I apologize if so. I received some  sort 
>> of
>> "Bounce" Notification on my first send....Thanks.
>>
>> Wise collective,
>>
>> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure of
>> the "Fix"  process;
>> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
>> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing surface....a

>> single
>> bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in length, but almost round.
>>
>> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
>> bubble
>> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or 
>> missing
>> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be 
>> clear?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>>
>> Larry Lambert
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 13:24:10 -0600
>> From: "Alex Balic" <alex157 at pwhome.com>
>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <002f01c6408a$6a210050$6f01a8c0 at ALEX>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Hi Larry-
>>
>> Drill a couple of 1/16 vent holes at the upper edge of the bubble, then a
>> couple of fill holes at the bottom edge- fill with normal laminating 
>> resin
>> using a syringe w/flat needle (like used for ink jet cartridge 
>> re-filling)-
>> tape over the holes to prevent leakage after you are done.  You can warm 
>> the
>> resin with heat gun/lamp to improve flow. If void is a blister, then you
>> will need to sand after cure to re-contour.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>  _____
>>
>> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Milehitaz at aol.com
>> Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 1:04 PM
>> To: reflector at tvbf.org
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>>
>>
>>
>> This might be a second post... I apologize if so. I received some sort of
>> "Bounce" Notification on my first send....Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wise collective,
>>
>>
>>
>> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure of
>> the "Fix"  process;
>>
>> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
>> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing surface....a
>> single bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in length, but almost
>> round.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
>> bubble
>> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or 
>> missing
>> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be
>> clear?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry Lambert
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>>
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20060305/b21c0984/
attachment.htm
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 10:53:22 -0900
>> From: Jeffrey Clough <jclough at gci.net>
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <440B41B2.7030205 at gci.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Is this a good idea?  Won't sanding/recontouring be removing the
>> fiberglass layup?  Won't pure epoxy 'eat' blue foam? (Do fastbuild wings
>> have foam cores?)  I think I would warm the blister with a heatgun first
>> to soften the fiberglass then I would inject (through a short large bore
>> needle...18 guage or 16 guage) a slurry of warmed (to make it easier to
>> inject and to keep the layup warm) microbubbles/epoxy then lay some
>> plastic on the area (saran wrap or equiv) then weight it down with a
>> warmed board and weights/sandbags some of the material will come
>> squishing out of your bottom edge holes....cover the area with duct tape
>> to aid in clean up.....
>> Anyone else?
>> Jeff Clough
>>
>> Alex Balic wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Larry-
>>>
>>> Drill a couple of 1/16 vent holes at the upper edge of the bubble,
>>> then a couple of fill holes at the bottom edge- fill with normal
>>> laminating resin using a syringe w/flat needle (like used for ink jet
>>> cartridge re-filling)- tape over the holes to prevent leakage after
>>> you are done.  You can warm the resin with heat gun/lamp to improve
>>> flow. If void is a blister, then you will need to sand after cure to
>>> re-contour.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Milehitaz at aol.com
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 05, 2006 1:04 PM
>>> *To:* reflector at tvbf.org
>>> *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  This might be a second post... I apologize if so. I received some
>>> sort of "Bounce" Notification on my first send....Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wise collective,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure
>>> of the "Fix"  process;
>>>
>>> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
>>> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing
>>> surface....a single bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in
>>> length, but almost  round.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the
>>> bubble and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting
>>> or missing anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or
>>> should it be clear?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry Lambert
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>To change your email address, visit 
>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>>
>>>Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
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>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 11:56:34 -0800
>> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
>> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Message-ID: <001401c6408e$e7e02d00$6400a8c0 at BigAl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
>> bubble
>> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or 
>> missing
>> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be
>> clear?
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it best to inject a microslurry.  It will inhibit the 'soaking' 
>> into
>> the foam.
>>
>>
>>
>> Al
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Visit the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose
>>
>> End of Reflector Digest, Vol 22, Issue 18
>> *****************************************
>
>
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