REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination Question

Mon Mar 6 16:40:04 CST 2006

Larry, that seems like a pretty big delamination. Do you know how it 
occured? Did something drop on it, or push against it, or did it get too hot 
by accident? Depending on what happened can affect how you fix it. You might 
have to open it up if it has a deep depression in order to fill it with the 
right materials. I accidently had a heat light fall on the bottom of the 
fuselage and melt a 6" round area. I opened the outer skin and removed the 
burned foam, them made up a mixture of mostly balloon, cabo, milled fiber, 
and resin to fill it. Finally I reattached the skin with a mixture of the 
same stuff without any ballons (plus a layer of fine bid), and you can't 
tell where it was, and it's solid.

If there's no obvious cause, I'd be wondering if I could have other 
delaminations. Whose fast build wings are they?

Chuck H
--------------------------
It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure of
the "Fix"  process;

I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing surface....a
single bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in length, but almost
round.

If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the bubble
and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or missing
anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be
clear?

Thanks in advance for you're help and input.

Larry Lambert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <reflector-request at tvbf.org>
To: <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 22, Issue 18

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. RE:  Gear dump valve (Al Gietzen)
>   2.  Wing Delamination question (Milehitaz at aol.com)
>   3. RE:  Wing Delamination question (Alex Balic)
>   4. Re:  Wing Delamination question (Jeffrey Clough)
>   5. RE:  Wing Delamination question (Al Gietzen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 10:26:53 -0800
> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Gear dump valve
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <000001c64082$614b78a0$6400a8c0 at BigAl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> I believe there is a lot more pressure across the opening valve just as 
> you
> crack the valve.  After all, 1500 psi or so is used to raise the gear. 
> The
> pressure switch cuts the pump off, but there is still 1500 psi there.  The
> pump will run again when this pressure drops a few pounds.  Now, if you
> slowly open the valve until the gear starts to drop, you are bleeding
> 1300-1500 psi fluid across the ball and seat.
>
>
>
> The actual pressure required at the cylinder to raise the gear during
> travel, or hold at some intermediate point, is about 150 psi (more at the
> start to unlatch the linkage).  You can compute this based on the area of
> the piston and the force required on the cables. The pressure out of the
> pump during the travel is about 600 psi; almost all of which is spent on 
> the
> overcoming the pressure drop in the too-small ¼" lines and fittings.
>
>
>
> The "Up" pressure switch opens the circuit at a pressure of about 1050 
> psi;
> not far below the internal bypass limit in the pump.  If you hear the pump
> "squeal" a bit at the end of either stroke, you know the internal bypass
> pressure is being exceeded.  If the gear is driven to the end of the 
> stroke,
> the peak pressure in the system at the end of the stroke can end up a bit
> higher.  So the valve can see quite high pressure during the first tiny
> amount of flow (the pressure will drop very quickly) from the end of the
> stroke, but when opening it from intermediate points in the travel the
> pressure is relatively low.
>
>
>
> The pressure at the cylinder during the down travel is very low as the 
> gear
> will drop by gravity.  The pressure out of the pump is 250 - 300 psi; 
> again
> spent forcing the flow through the small lines. The "down" pressure switch
> opens at about 550 psi, but because cylinder is already at the end of the
> stroke when the pressure reaches that point, the slight delay in the 
> relays,
> and the inertia of the pump carries it enough to drive the pressure up to
> the bypass pressure, somewhere around 1100 as I recall.
>
>
>
> This issue may be whether it is harder on the valve to release the 
> pressure
> than it is to let it set for long periods of time holding the pressure.
>
>
>
> It was during all these measurements, and discussions with the makers of 
> the
> switches, that I learned that the screws at the top of the pressure 
> switches
> are not for adjusting the pressure at which the switch 'opens', but adjust
> the bandwidth - the pressure difference between the 'make' and 'break'
> points. This can influence the turn-off point but more directly influences
> the point at which the pump turns back on; which can determine whether the
> pump "cycles", or not.
>
>
>
> At least this is what I learned doing measurements on my system; which 
> isn't
> necessarily the same as someone else's.  And I'm sure this is more detail
> than anyone wants to know.
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 14:03:46 EST
> From: Milehitaz at aol.com
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Message-ID: <204.11e66cab.313c9012 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> This might be a second post... I apologize if so. I received some  sort of
> "Bounce" Notification on my first send....Thanks.
>
> Wise collective,
>
> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure of
> the "Fix"  process;
> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing surface....a 
> single
> bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in length, but almost 
> round.
>
> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
> bubble
> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or missing
> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be 
> clear?
>
> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>
> Larry Lambert
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20060305/697f79ce/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 13:24:10 -0600
> From: "Alex Balic" <alex157 at pwhome.com>
> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <002f01c6408a$6a210050$6f01a8c0 at ALEX>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Larry-
>
> Drill a couple of 1/16 vent holes at the upper edge of the bubble, then a
> couple of fill holes at the bottom edge- fill with normal laminating resin
> using a syringe w/flat needle (like used for ink jet cartridge 
> re-filling)-
> tape over the holes to prevent leakage after you are done.  You can warm 
> the
> resin with heat gun/lamp to improve flow. If void is a blister, then you
> will need to sand after cure to re-contour.
>
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Milehitaz at aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 1:04 PM
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>
>
>
> This might be a second post... I apologize if so. I received some sort of
> "Bounce" Notification on my first send....Thanks.
>
>
>
> Wise collective,
>
>
>
> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure of
> the "Fix"  process;
>
> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing surface....a
> single bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in length, but almost
> round.
>
>
>
> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
> bubble
> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or missing
> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be
> clear?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>
>
>
> Larry Lambert
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20060305/b21c0984/attachment.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 10:53:22 -0900
> From: Jeffrey Clough <jclough at gci.net>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <440B41B2.7030205 at gci.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Is this a good idea?  Won't sanding/recontouring be removing the
> fiberglass layup?  Won't pure epoxy 'eat' blue foam? (Do fastbuild wings
> have foam cores?)  I think I would warm the blister with a heatgun first
> to soften the fiberglass then I would inject (through a short large bore
> needle...18 guage or 16 guage) a slurry of warmed (to make it easier to
> inject and to keep the layup warm) microbubbles/epoxy then lay some
> plastic on the area (saran wrap or equiv) then weight it down with a
> warmed board and weights/sandbags some of the material will come
> squishing out of your bottom edge holes....cover the area with duct tape
> to aid in clean up.....
> Anyone else?
> Jeff Clough
>
> Alex Balic wrote:
>
>> Hi Larry-
>>
>> Drill a couple of 1/16 vent holes at the upper edge of the bubble,
>> then a couple of fill holes at the bottom edge- fill with normal
>> laminating resin using a syringe w/flat needle (like used for ink jet
>> cartridge re-filling)- tape over the holes to prevent leakage after
>> you are done.  You can warm the resin with heat gun/lamp to improve
>> flow. If void is a blister, then you will need to sand after cure to
>> re-contour.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *Milehitaz at aol.com
>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 05, 2006 1:04 PM
>> *To:* reflector at tvbf.org
>> *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
>>
>>
>>
>>  This might be a second post... I apologize if so. I received some
>> sort of "Bounce" Notification on my first send....Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wise collective,
>>
>>
>>
>> It's been a while since I have seen this topic, so i wanted to be sure
>> of the "Fix"  process;
>>
>> I am building a XL/RG and I have fast build wings, I just found what I
>> consider somewhat of a large de-lamination in the upper wing
>> surface....a single bubble about 3 inches wide and 4 to 5 inches in
>> length, but almost  round.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the
>> bubble and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting
>> or missing anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or
>> should it be clear?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for you're help and input.
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry Lambert
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 11:56:34 -0800
> From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Wing Delamination question
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <001401c6408e$e7e02d00$6400a8c0 at BigAl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> If I remember correctly... drill a couple of 1/8th inch holes in the 
> bubble
> and inject epoxy, add weight and allow to cure. Am I forgetting or missing
> anything? Should there be any micro mixed in the epoxy or should it be
> clear?
>
>
>
> I think it best to inject a microslurry.  It will inhibit the 'soaking' 
> into
> the foam.
>
>
>
> Al
>
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>
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