From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jun 28 11:13:47 2006 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: However, it's a lot easier to see if you have pulled the "squiggles" out of the uni if that layer is on top. Keith _____ From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Prock Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 9:21 PM To: reflector at tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR: Novice question Hi, I recently got an XLRG kit and am at the stage of glassing the wings. The question I have is which side of the TRIAX is against the foam. The manual says to put the UNI side up, but I was at the factory last week and they were putting the UNI side against the foam....does it make much of a difference. thanks Jack ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C69E2B.537CD4B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jack,

 

From a structural point of view it probably doesn’t make much difference.  However, it’s a = lot easier to see if you have pulled the “squiggles” out of the uni if = that layer is on top.

 

Keith

 

 

From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jack Prock
Sent: Sunday, July 02, = 2006 9:21 PM
To: = reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR: = Novice question

 

Hi,

 

I recently got an XLRG kit and am at the stage of = glassing the wings. The question I have

is which side of the TRIAX is against the foam. The = manual says to put the UNI side

up, but I was at the factory last week and they were = putting the UNI side against

the foam....does it make much of a difference.

 

thanks

Jack

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C69E2B.537CD4B0-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jun 28 11:13:47 2006 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: hp = torque (lb-ft) * rpm / 5252 I don't see FM-300 anywhere in that formula... Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: "matt" Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list To: Subject: REFLECTOR: FM-300 and RSA 5AD1 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:41:09 -0700 I have a bendix RSA 5AD1 servo for my IO540, dyno tested at 310. Whats the difference from it and the FM-300? Matt Message: 7 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 02:55:28 +0000 From: "steve korney" Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: ram air To: reflector at tvbf.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Pat ... 10 Horse Power is the up-side.... What's the down side of the FM-300... Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: Pat Shea Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: ram air Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 12:35:36 -0700 (PDT) With an IO-540K, I would suggest going w/ the FM-300 flow controller from Airflow Performance. The FM-300 is designed for 250hp-450HP where the FM200 is designed for 150HP-300HP. That way you're covered if you ever boost your HP over the stock 300. I have a IO-540K with 10:1 pistons and 340HP. On the dyno, the FM-300 yielded 10 additional HP over the FM-200. Pat --- J.F.Sheehan at larc.nasa.gov wrote: > Johnny > I believe the adapter and filter I am using is an > FM-200 I don't know if that > will work on the IO-540K engine. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 22:39:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Shea Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: ram air To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Message-ID: <20060707053902.35209.qmail at web51909.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hey Steve, You're right, there's no free lunch, you're going to burn more fuel w/ the FM-300. So unless you throttle back to get the same performance as you were getting w/ the FM-200, which is the pilot's option, that hamburger is now going to cost closer to $103.33 (assuming an increase from 300HP to 310HP)... Higher compression may be considered an exception to the no free lunch rule. Of course someone is going to point out that higher compression generates more heat...but if you already have ample cooling it's a free lunch in my book...just not the physics book... Pat --- steve korney wrote: > Hi Pat ... > > 10 Horse Power is the up-side.... What's the down > side of the FM-300... > > Best... Steve > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Pat Shea > I have a IO-540K with 10:1 pistons and 340HP. On the > dyno, the FM-300 yielded 10 additional HP over the > FM-200. > > Pat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose End of Reflector Digest, Vol 26, Issue 24 ***************************************** __________ NOD32 1.1649 (20060707) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jun 28 11:13:47 2006 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: much of a hazard as the crash. Cuts and bruises aside, pilots have extricated themselves from their aircraft with the hammer. I doubt you could kick out the windshield. The seat backs would probably fail first. This item has been on my emergency checklist for the Pipers and Cessnas I rent. With the forward hinged door there really isn't a penalty for opening the door in flight. If I were to open an elite door, I would try unlatch it and hold it in the closed position. I have spent some time pondering the wisdom of opening an elite door purposefully in flight. I know the plane can be flown with the door open but it is NOT recommended. I am sure this is another very good reason to take training at Sebastian. The idea of adding this to the mix as I was about to land in inhospitable terrain gives one pause. Better to think about it now then try to reason it out in the middle of an emergency. The way Sid Knox has been coming up with cool solutions for us, I figure I'll wait for his exploding bolts. :) Best, Andy ________________________________ From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Juanita Londenberg Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 8:19 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: REFLECTOR: Making a list and checking twice "Open door prior to impact" to the emergency check list? I know the safety of the fuselage as a whole is better w/doors locked -- Does anyone know how easy it is to kick out a window? Juanita Londenberg N4PE From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jun 28 11:13:47 2006 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: elevator control while on ground, stopped, is quite light but stiffens when the flying surface is loaded with aerodynamic forces. =20 I have also read that the elevators on Velocities are quite effective and take very little input to make the plane do what they need to and Cessna drivers have a tendency to over-control. =20 So, for those in the minority who are flying the yoke system, how stiff is your yoke system? How much force does it take to move the elevator up and down? Does your trim motor move the elevator on the ground without you "assisting" the yoke? =20 Hiroo ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6A60E.9F3A17CF Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My plane has a dual-yoke system.  As I was = getting the plane ready for final inspection, and cycling through all the controls, = I noticed that my elevator control was quite “heavy”.  In = that, cycling the trim did not really move the elevators on its own but rather applied bias pressure to the elevator system so that when I do move the = control by hand, it will settle in a different = position.

 

From my previous experiences flying various Cessna = products, the elevator control while on ground, stopped, is quite light but = stiffens when the flying surface is loaded with aerodynamic = forces.

 

I have also read that the elevators on Velocities are = quite effective and take very little input to make the plane do what they need = to and Cessna drivers have a tendency to = over-control.

 

So, for those in the minority who are flying the yoke system, how stiff is your yoke system?  How much force does it take = to move the elevator up and down?  Does your trim motor move the = elevator on the ground without you “assisting” the = yoke?

 

Hiroo

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6A60E.9F3A17CF-- From bogus@does.not.exist.com Wed Jun 28 11:13:47 2006 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:13:47 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: anymore. If you have the money to spend its probably the way to go. I = decided I could spend the extra money on my avionics, engine or prop. Andy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jack Prock=20 To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list=20 Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Winglet Trailing edge trimming Thanks Andy...I was starting to wonder if anyone else had encountered = this problem. There seemed to be a deafening silence to my query.=20 Thanks Again Jack ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andrew Ellzey=20 To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list=20 Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 5:28 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Winglet Trailing edge trimming Jack, I am also building my wings and winglets. I had the same issue as = you are talking about. Put your winglet back in the billet half that = matches the inboard side of the winglet. Mark the lines on the billet = half, the 28" mark will fall on the billet half and the 12" will fall on = your winglet. Now mark the 1" foam trim line on your winglet per the = manual. This line will fall entirely on your winglet. Sand your billet = half to match the contour of the trailing edge where the line comes off = the foam of the winglet. Line you billet half with plastic to make a = mold half for your lay-up. Do your inboard lay-up per the manual leaving = enough cloth for the entire size per the manual. When you put your = winglet in your billet half it will form your trailing edge for the = correct 28". After it cures you will trim the foam back the 1" on your = winglet per manual, and this line will fall on the foam. The manual also = doesn't tell you what to do with the top of the winglet, leave it = squared off like it came out of the billet or round it off. I rounded = mine off to a nice aerodynamic shape. If you have room to attach your = wings to the spar when you are ready to attach your winglets, as the = manual suggests, this is the best way to make sure your winglets and = wings are completely matched. Make all of the cross check measurements = the manual calls for. I used a water level at the wing tips to level = both wings attached to the spar. I spent 2 full days getting everything = just right, I'm hoping this will payoff in how my aircraft flies. Happy building, Andy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jack Prock=20 To: reflector at tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: REFLECTOR: Winglet Trailing edge trimming Hi, I am in the process of setting up the winglets for glassing. I am = trying to trim the trailing edge according to the manual, but my winglets don't = seem to match what the manual is saying. Or I am reading it incorrectly. The manual says to measure on the top of the winglet 12" and then = on the bottom of the winglet 28" and draw a line. The problem is that my winglet = taken directly=20 from the winglet foam billet does not reach 28". I don't know = what to do. Do I=20 draw a line to the 28" line that is approx. 3/4 of an inch behind = trailing edge foam? Or am I measuring wrong. I am starting at the leading edge point, = and measuring=20 across the bottom (the actual bottom...that would be facing the = ground when the winglet is installed). Does the manual mean to say to measure = across the bottom of the inboard face of the winglet? This would add inches, = since the curvature of the winglet would add to the distance.=20 Help Jack Prock -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw =3D tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: = http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw =3D tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C6B4F6.49200EB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From what the factory tells me, not = many people=20 build their own wings anymore. If you have the money to spend its = probably the=20 way to go. I decided I could spend the extra money on my avionics, = engine or=20 prop.
 
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jack=20 Prock
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 = 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Winglet = Trailing=20 edge trimming

Thanks Andy...I was starting to = wonder if anyone=20 else had encountered this problem. There seemed to be a deafening=20 silence
to my query.
 
Thanks Again
Jack
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Andrew=20 Ellzey
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 = 5:28=20 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: = Winglet=20 Trailing edge trimming

Jack,
 
I am also building my wings and = winglets. I had=20 the same issue as you are talking about. Put your winglet back in = the billet=20 half that matches the inboard side of the winglet. Mark the lines on = the=20 billet half, the 28" mark will fall on the billet half and the 12" = will fall=20 on your winglet. Now mark the 1" foam trim line on your winglet per = the=20 manual. This line will fall entirely on your winglet. Sand your = billet half=20 to match the contour of the trailing edge where the line comes off = the foam=20 of the winglet. Line you billet half with plastic to make a mold = half for=20 your lay-up. Do your inboard lay-up per the manual leaving enough = cloth for=20 the entire size per the manual. When you put your winglet in your = billet=20 half it will form your trailing edge for the correct 28". After it = cures you=20 will trim the foam back the 1" on your winglet per manual, and this = line=20 will fall on the foam. The manual also doesn't tell you what to do = with the=20 top of the winglet, leave it squared off like it came out of the = billet or=20 round it off. I rounded mine off to a nice aerodynamic shape. If you = have=20 room to attach your wings to the spar when you are ready to attach = your=20 winglets, as the manual suggests, this is the best way to make = sure=20 your winglets and wings are completely matched. Make all of the = cross check=20 measurements the manual calls for. I used a water level at the wing=20 tips to level both wings attached to the spar. I = spent 2 full=20 days getting everything just right, I'm hoping this will payoff = in how=20 my aircraft flies.
 
Happy building,
 
Andy
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Jack=20 Prock
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 = 4:36=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR: Winglet = Trailing=20 edge trimming

Hi,
 
I am in the process of setting up = the=20 winglets for glassing. I am trying to trim
the trailing edge according to = the manual,=20 but my winglets don't seem to match
what the manual is saying. Or I = am reading it=20 incorrectly.
 
The manual says to measure on the = top of the=20 winglet 12" and then on the bottom
of the winglet 28" and draw a = line. The=20 problem is that my winglet taken directly
from the winglet foam billet does = not reach=20 28".  I don't know what to do. Do I
draw a line to the 28" line that = is approx.=20 3/4 of an inch behind trailing edge foam?
 
Or am I measuring wrong. I am = starting at the=20 leading edge point, and measuring
across the bottom (the actual = bottom...that=20 would be facing the ground when
the winglet is installed).  = Does the=20 manual mean to say to measure across the
bottom of the inboard face of the = winglet?=20 This would add inches, since the curvature of the
winglet would add to the = distance.=20
 
Help
 
Jack = Prock

_______________________________________________
To = change your=20 email address, visit=20 http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit the=20 gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
user:pw =3D=20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check new archives: = www.tvbf.org/pipermail
Check=20 old archives:=20 = http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html

_______________________________________________
To change = your email=20 address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit the=20 gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
user:pw =3D = tvbf:jamaicangoose
Check=20 new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
Check old archives:=20 = http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_00BF_01C6B4F6.49200EB0-- From terrence_miles at hotmail.com Wed Jun 21 17:14:18 2006 From: terrence_miles at hotmail.com (Terry Miles) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 22:14:18 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Dual battery Duel In-Reply-To: <000101c6953e$4e322d20$0202a8c0@OFFICE> Message-ID: Thank you, Keith. I am headed to that shared philosopy, the more I look at this topic of battery abnormals. Thanks for tip on the #4 welding cable, and being careful about the posts too. It's my plan to swap one out each annual as well. Terry -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hallsten Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:24 AM To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Dual battery Duel Terry, Modern sealed lead-acid batteries are reliable as long as: 1. You replace them before they get too old. Replacing every two years will get you a very high level of reliability. Replacing every year will get you an extremely high level of reliability. 2. You connect to the battery with a short pigtail of soft #4 welding cable. Stiff leads bolted to the battery can lead to failure of the battery posts. 3. The battery is large enough that you don't beat it absolutely flat with a difficult start. Batteries last longer when not cycled too deeply. This is not generally a hard criteria to meet as long as the engine is working properly and the battery is sized to provide some reasonable level of alternator-out endurance. If you take care of the three factors above, I wouldn't waste much effort worrying about battery reliability. The modern SLA (also known as "Absorbed Glass Mat", or "Starved Electrolyte" or "Recombinant Gas") battery is not subject to the cell shorting that occasionally occurred with the old flooded cell type. Multiple batteries of the same chemistry and voltage, even if at different states of charge or of different sizes, will live very happily on the same bus. One will not discharge another; the more charged battery will just provide power preferentially. Regards, Keith Hallsten -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Terry Miles Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 5:32 AM To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' Subject: REFLECTOR: Dual battery Duel Kurt, Thanks for the nice clear description below. Let me paint a scenario, best as I get all this stuff. Please I am only trying to toss out ideas and get a grip on this topic. From your sentence below: "If bus voltage starts to drop..." I get it about the part if V goes below say 13 that the alternator is likely at fault, and what to do about alt failures, and how to design indicators and annunciators for alternator issues. My concern is about batt abnormals. Or perhaps let me ask this question to those of us with two equal batteries, are you trying to design for further fault tolerance at the "alternator failed" level of your electrical system? Let's say your system voltage drops from it's normal steady 13.8 and starts to spike up and down for no reason by 2 volts or so. You decide to take your the alternator off line, and run a load shed routine. Now it reads 10.8 which is 1 volt or more lower than what you expected, and you have both batts on line. You start to worry that a weak batt feeding is a stronger one. You have no way of knowing which one is which while they are paralleled. And who would suggest being brave enuf to turn off one batt contactor and see how they look isolated...and of course the off line batt V will go back up w/ no load on it. This point here...this when and why of IN FLIGHT isolating batts in a dual batt system with a failed alternator...that I find to be a worthy electrical design topic or to be ignored as a "never happen, nothing you can do" situation. If I understand it: if you use that marine batt tender and depowered your alternator, it will think you just dropped anchor and will pull your starting battery off line. (Is that right?) Terry > Terry, > > Pretty close, > > For the sake of illustration, grounds are correct as in your example. > > The Hot side of each battery goes to it's own contactor.. the IN side. > > The switched side of the contactors (OUT) I connected with a brass > bar. > This bar goes over each "out" post, with a central "MAIN" coming out of > the middle to the Buss. > > My Alternator lead (again, switched and fused) runs to the starter > contactor. There it joins with the #2 cable that runs thru the center of > my conduit ground, and connects to the switched side (OUT) of the > contactors. > > This way, I can run on either battery or both. > I can also do any combination since I have the ability to turn off the > field wire anyway. Nuckols writes that if you monitor buss voltage, > and it is in the "charging" area, all is well. > If buss voltage starts to drop, then you have a charging or battery > problem. No need for seperate voltage readings on each battery, since if > they are both on line, you will get MAIN average anyway. > The addition of a quality Ammeter will warn of a charging problem before > main line voltage would drop anyway, so that is an extra. > > I also plan to follow his plan of swapping a battery every other year, > so the odds of a battery problem are much reduced (my whole airplane is > electric). I'm using (2) B&C 32AH Batteries. > > My origonal idea was to use a high quality RV charging splitter. These > charge the battery that needs charging the most, and include their own > Diodes and sensor so that a bad battery can not bring down the good one, > etc. Bob seemed to think (and I'll defer to him) that his system is > efficient, easy, safe and light without added complexity, cost or weight. > I also asked about not having that big #2 cable unfused. He wasn't > worried. Since I bought the best cable I could find, added additional > shielding and then encased it in my copper conduit cround, that it is > about as safe as it can get. If something BAD ever does happen, flip off > both battery switches... and everything stops. > > Hope that helps. I can take pics or make a drawing if you want.. or > feel free to call. > > Kurt Winker. > 505-610-3676 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From deanmay7 at owc.net Thu Jun 22 05:49:20 2006 From: deanmay7 at owc.net (Dean May) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:49:20 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor References: <20060615123809.99517.qmail@web38708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44918061.7010106@awpi.com><000501c69093$4989d5c0$6500a8c0@home3icfesjomf> <44922A4A.9060105@awpi.com> Message-ID: <001701c695e7$5dc56780$21834045@OFFICE> Ok I purchased this optical level sensor, but now how do I wire it in? The old mechanical sensor had two wires and this has three. Any ideas? Dean May N474MA STDRG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor McMaster-Carr, 4949K43, $79.65 http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/4949kp1l.gif Control the liquid level in your tank without a float?an infrared light beam does all the work. When the tip is immersed (or exposed), the beam refracts (or stops refracting) and activates the sensor output. Sensors have an LED signal to indicate when output is on. Sensors are sensitive to light, so they need to be shielded or used in an enclosed tank. Maximum output is at the input voltage. Polyamid housing is best for use with solvents, polysulfone housing will stand up to most acids and bases, and carbon steel housing is the choice for high-pressure applications. Output when wet sensors activate when the tip is immersed; use to empty a tank. Output when dry sensors activate when there is no liquid present; use to fill a tank. Check out http://www.tvbf.org/gallery/index.php?dir=Sump%20Tank%20-%20FG%2F I've got three pictures at the end of my installation. I tried testing it in a foam cup. It didn't work. I think the signal was bouncing around the cup and re-entering. It worked just fine at engine start. I'm not yet flying. Robin Wesley Ream wrote: > Do you have an installation picture of this on-line somewhere? > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:44 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor > > >> I bought mine from McMaster Carr. It's cheaper than the Gems sensors. >> I'll try to remember the model number. >> >> The float type didn't work. I ended up drilling it out because it >> wouldn't come out. I then inserted a brass bushing in it's place and >> installed this new optical sensor. >> >> Dr. Golf wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know the supplier and part number for the >>> optical sensor? >>> Joel >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From cdwoolston at verizon.net Thu Jun 22 08:11:32 2006 From: cdwoolston at verizon.net (Craig and/or Denise Woolston) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:11:32 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor In-Reply-To: <001701c695e7$5dc56780$21834045@OFFICE> Message-ID: <0J19001WWJ8TQABB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Most likely, one wire is common, one is for normally open and the other for normally closed. Your going to have to put an Ohm meter on it to find which one is which and/or colors are different. Normally open means when the switch is made the circuit is open. And so if the switch is NOT made then a circuit would be completed b/t the common wire and the "normally open" wire. This is mostly likely the wire you need for your installation. If there is no fluid in the tank, the switch will open, complete the circuit and your light will come on. Normally close means when the switch is made the circuit is completed b/t the common wire and the "normally closed" wire. Craig XL-5FG -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Dean May Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 2:32 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor Ok I purchased this optical level sensor, but now how do I wire it in? The old mechanical sensor had two wires and this has three. Any ideas? Dean May N474MA STDRG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor McMaster-Carr, 4949K43, $79.65 http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/4949kp1l.gif Control the liquid level in your tank without a float-an infrared light beam does all the work. When the tip is immersed (or exposed), the beam refracts (or stops refracting) and activates the sensor output. Sensors have an LED signal to indicate when output is on. Sensors are sensitive to light, so they need to be shielded or used in an enclosed tank. Maximum output is at the input voltage. Polyamid housing is best for use with solvents, polysulfone housing will stand up to most acids and bases, and carbon steel housing is the choice for high-pressure applications. Output when wet sensors activate when the tip is immersed; use to empty a tank. Output when dry sensors activate when there is no liquid present; use to fill a tank. Check out http://www.tvbf.org/gallery/index.php?dir=Sump%20Tank%20-%20FG%2F I've got three pictures at the end of my installation. I tried testing it in a foam cup. It didn't work. I think the signal was bouncing around the cup and re-entering. It worked just fine at engine start. I'm not yet flying. Robin Wesley Ream wrote: > Do you have an installation picture of this on-line somewhere? > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:44 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor > > >> I bought mine from McMaster Carr. It's cheaper than the Gems sensors. >> I'll try to remember the model number. >> >> The float type didn't work. I ended up drilling it out because it >> wouldn't come out. I then inserted a brass bushing in it's place and >> installed this new optical sensor. >> >> Dr. Golf wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know the supplier and part number for the >>> optical sensor? >>> Joel >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From michalk at awpi.com Thu Jun 22 10:15:30 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:15:30 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor In-Reply-To: <001701c695e7$5dc56780$21834045@OFFICE> References: <20060615123809.99517.qmail@web38708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44918061.7010106@awpi.com><000501c69093$4989d5c0$6500a8c0@home3icfesjomf> <44922A4A.9060105@awpi.com> <001701c695e7$5dc56780$21834045@OFFICE> Message-ID: <449AD2C6.5080101@awpi.com> I think others may have answered your question as well, but here is a different response. +12v to sensor gnd to sensor ------ +12v to instrument panel annunciator from annunciator to sensor Dean May wrote: > Ok I purchased this optical level sensor, but now how do I wire it in? The > old mechanical sensor had two wires and this has three. Any ideas? > > Dean May > N474MA STDRG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor > > > McMaster-Carr, 4949K43, $79.65 > http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/4949kp1l.gif > > Control the liquid level in your tank without a float?an infrared light > beam does all the work. When the tip is immersed (or exposed), the beam > refracts (or stops refracting) and activates the sensor output. Sensors > have an LED signal to indicate when output is on. Sensors are sensitive > to light, so they need to be shielded or used in an enclosed tank. > Maximum output is at the input voltage. Polyamid housing is best for use > with solvents, polysulfone housing will stand up to most acids and > bases, and carbon steel housing is the choice for high-pressure > applications. Output when wet sensors activate when the tip is immersed; > use to empty a tank. Output when dry sensors activate when there is no > liquid present; use to fill a tank. > > > Check out > http://www.tvbf.org/gallery/index.php?dir=Sump%20Tank%20-%20FG%2F > I've got three pictures at the end of my installation. > > I tried testing it in a foam cup. It didn't work. I think the signal > was bouncing around the cup and re-entering. It worked just fine at > engine start. I'm not yet flying. > > > > Robin Wesley Ream wrote: > >>Do you have an installation picture of this on-line somewhere? >>Robin >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" >>To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >>Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:44 AM >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor >> >> >> >>>I bought mine from McMaster Carr. It's cheaper than the Gems sensors. >>>I'll try to remember the model number. >>> >>>The float type didn't work. I ended up drilling it out because it >>>wouldn't come out. I then inserted a brass bushing in it's place and >>>installed this new optical sensor. >>> >>>Dr. Golf wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Does anyone know the supplier and part number for the >>>>optical sensor? >>>>Joel >>>> >>>> >>>>__________________________________________________ >>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>>http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From deanmay7 at owc.net Thu Jun 22 11:37:29 2006 From: deanmay7 at owc.net (Dean May) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:37:29 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor References: <20060615123809.99517.qmail@web38708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44918061.7010106@awpi.com><000501c69093$4989d5c0$6500a8c0@home3icfesjomf> <44922A4A.9060105@awpi.com><001701c695e7$5dc56780$21834045@OFFICE> <449AD2C6.5080101@awpi.com> Message-ID: <000d01c6961a$1cad8dd0$f0844045@OFFICE> Well, after further examination, I discovered that the wiring diagram is printed onto the sensor body. There was no diagram in the instructions included, and the sensor itself was the last place I thought to look. Dean May STDRG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor I think others may have answered your question as well, but here is a different response. +12v to sensor gnd to sensor ------ +12v to instrument panel annunciator from annunciator to sensor Dean May wrote: > Ok I purchased this optical level sensor, but now how do I wire it in? > The > old mechanical sensor had two wires and this has three. Any ideas? > > Dean May > N474MA STDRG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor > > > McMaster-Carr, 4949K43, $79.65 > http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/4949kp1l.gif > > Control the liquid level in your tank without a float?an infrared light > beam does all the work. When the tip is immersed (or exposed), the beam > refracts (or stops refracting) and activates the sensor output. Sensors > have an LED signal to indicate when output is on. Sensors are sensitive > to light, so they need to be shielded or used in an enclosed tank. > Maximum output is at the input voltage. Polyamid housing is best for use > with solvents, polysulfone housing will stand up to most acids and > bases, and carbon steel housing is the choice for high-pressure > applications. Output when wet sensors activate when the tip is immersed; > use to empty a tank. Output when dry sensors activate when there is no > liquid present; use to fill a tank. > > > Check out > http://www.tvbf.org/gallery/index.php?dir=Sump%20Tank%20-%20FG%2F > I've got three pictures at the end of my installation. > > I tried testing it in a foam cup. It didn't work. I think the signal > was bouncing around the cup and re-entering. It worked just fine at > engine start. I'm not yet flying. > > > > Robin Wesley Ream wrote: > >>Do you have an installation picture of this on-line somewhere? >>Robin >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" >>To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >>Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:44 AM >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor >> >> >> >>>I bought mine from McMaster Carr. It's cheaper than the Gems sensors. >>>I'll try to remember the model number. >>> >>>The float type didn't work. I ended up drilling it out because it >>>wouldn't come out. I then inserted a brass bushing in it's place and >>>installed this new optical sensor. >>> >>>Dr. Golf wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Does anyone know the supplier and part number for the >>>>optical sensor? >>>>Joel >>>> >>>> >>>>__________________________________________________ >>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>>http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From s_korney at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 12:01:24 2006 From: s_korney at hotmail.com (steve korney) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:01:24 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor In-Reply-To: <000d01c6961a$1cad8dd0$f0844045@OFFICE> Message-ID: So..... How does it hook up....? Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Dean May" Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:37:10 -0500 Well, after further examination, I discovered that the wiring diagram is printed onto the sensor body. There was no diagram in the instructions included, and the sensor itself was the last place I thought to look. Dean May STDRG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Michalk" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:26 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor I think others may have answered your question as well, but here is a different response. +12v to sensor gnd to sensor ------ +12v to instrument panel annunciator from annunciator to sensor Dean May wrote: > Ok I purchased this optical level sensor, but now how do I wire it in? > The > old mechanical sensor had two wires and this has three. Any ideas? > > Dean May > N474MA STDRG > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor > > > McMaster-Carr, 4949K43, $79.65 > http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/4949kp1l.gif > > Control the liquid level in your tank without a float?an infrared light > beam does all the work. When the tip is immersed (or exposed), the beam > refracts (or stops refracting) and activates the sensor output. Sensors > have an LED signal to indicate when output is on. Sensors are sensitive > to light, so they need to be shielded or used in an enclosed tank. > Maximum output is at the input voltage. Polyamid housing is best for use > with solvents, polysulfone housing will stand up to most acids and > bases, and carbon steel housing is the choice for high-pressure > applications. Output when wet sensors activate when the tip is immersed; > use to empty a tank. Output when dry sensors activate when there is no > liquid present; use to fill a tank. > > > Check out > http://www.tvbf.org/gallery/index.php?dir=Sump%20Tank%20-%20FG%2F > I've got three pictures at the end of my installation. > > I tried testing it in a foam cup. It didn't work. I think the signal > was bouncing around the cup and re-entering. It worked just fine at > engine start. I'm not yet flying. > > > > Robin Wesley Ream wrote: > >>Do you have an installation picture of this on-line somewhere? >>Robin >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" >>To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >>Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:44 AM >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor >> >> >> >>>I bought mine from McMaster Carr. It's cheaper than the Gems sensors. >>>I'll try to remember the model number. >>> >>>The float type didn't work. I ended up drilling it out because it >>>wouldn't come out. I then inserted a brass bushing in it's place and >>>installed this new optical sensor. >>> >>>Dr. Golf wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Does anyone know the supplier and part number for the >>>>optical sensor? >>>>Joel >>>> >>>> >>>>__________________________________________________ >>>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>>http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From velocity at davebiz.com Thu Jun 22 12:46:08 2006 From: velocity at davebiz.com (Dave Philipsen) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:46:08 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor In-Reply-To: <000d01c6961a$1cad8dd0$f0844045@OFFICE> References: <20060615123809.99517.qmail@web38708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <44918061.7010106@awpi.com><000501c69093$4989d5c0$6500a8c0@home3icfesjomf> <44922A4A.9060105@awpi.com><001701c695e7$5dc56780$21834045@OFFICE> <449AD2C6.5080101@awpi.com> <000d01c6961a$1cad8dd0$f0844045@OFFICE> Message-ID: <449AD740.6060201@davebiz.com> Dean, I wasn't able to find the specs on your sensor but another thing you might want to be careful about is the amount of current your annunciator will draw. Most of these optical level sensors use a solid-state switch inside that can only sink maybe 50 to 200 milliamps of current. That's fine if your annunciator is an LED. But if it's an incandescent lamp, you'll want to make sure the current draw is less than the rating of the level switch. Here's a rough idea of what the circuit would look like. The -|<- symbol is an LED but could just as easily be an incandescent bulb. --- |--- +12vdc |-----| |--- +12vdc Sensor |-----------------------|<----| |-----| --- |--- Ground annunciator LED (fuel low) If this diagram looks weird, you may want to copy it and convert to a fixed-width font. Dean May wrote: > Well, after further examination, I discovered that the wiring diagram is > printed onto the sensor body. There was no diagram in the instructions > included, and the sensor itself was the last place I thought to look. > > Dean May > STDRG > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 12:26 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor > > > I think others may have answered your question as well, but here is a > different response. > > +12v to sensor > gnd to sensor > ------ > +12v to instrument panel annunciator > from annunciator to sensor > > Dean May wrote: > >> Ok I purchased this optical level sensor, but now how do I wire it in? >> The >> old mechanical sensor had two wires and this has three. Any ideas? >> >> Dean May >> N474MA STDRG >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brian Michalk" >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:49 PM >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor >> >> >> McMaster-Carr, 4949K43, $79.65 >> http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/112/gfx/large/4949kp1l.gif >> >> Control the liquid level in your tank without a float?an infrared light >> beam does all the work. When the tip is immersed (or exposed), the beam >> refracts (or stops refracting) and activates the sensor output. Sensors >> have an LED signal to indicate when output is on. Sensors are sensitive >> to light, so they need to be shielded or used in an enclosed tank. >> Maximum output is at the input voltage. Polyamid housing is best for use >> with solvents, polysulfone housing will stand up to most acids and >> bases, and carbon steel housing is the choice for high-pressure >> applications. Output when wet sensors activate when the tip is immersed; >> use to empty a tank. Output when dry sensors activate when there is no >> liquid present; use to fill a tank. >> >> >> Check out >> http://www.tvbf.org/gallery/index.php?dir=Sump%20Tank%20-%20FG%2F >> I've got three pictures at the end of my installation. >> >> I tried testing it in a foam cup. It didn't work. I think the signal >> was bouncing around the cup and re-entering. It worked just fine at >> engine start. I'm not yet flying. >> >> >> >> Robin Wesley Ream wrote: >> >> >>> Do you have an installation picture of this on-line somewhere? >>> Robin >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" >>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >>> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 10:44 AM >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: optical low fuel sensor >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I bought mine from McMaster Carr. It's cheaper than the Gems sensors. >>>> I'll try to remember the model number. >>>> >>>> The float type didn't work. I ended up drilling it out because it >>>> wouldn't come out. I then inserted a brass bushing in it's place and >>>> installed this new optical sensor. >>>> >>>> Dr. Golf wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Does anyone know the supplier and part number for the >>>>> optical sensor? >>>>> Joel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________ >>>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ >>>>> To change your email address, visit >>>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To change your email address, visit >>>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > -- Dave Philipsen N171SP soon-to-be N83DP From s_korney at hotmail.com Thu Jun 22 15:54:16 2006 From: s_korney at hotmail.com (steve korney) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 20:54:16 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: W&B arm for fuel tanks for STD aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hiroo... My Std. fuse, Std. wing Velocity empty weight was 1388 with IO-360 200 HP Lycoming, 3 bladed MT prop in primer coat ... Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Hiroo Umeno" Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list To: Subject: REFLECTOR: W&B arm for fuel tanks for STD aircraft Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:36:29 -0700 We weighed the plane yesterday and now getting around to computing the W&B computations. While we pretty much followed the excellent spreadsheet I downloaded, there was one thing we could not do. Since we do not have a way of fueling and de-fueling the plane easily, we cannot compute the arm for the fuel tanks using the methods outlined in the spreadsheet. Since our plane is pretty much in stock configuration, with the tank size and location per plan, the CG for the fuel tank should be in a known location. Does anyone have the arm number for the fuel tanks for STD fuselage, STD wing aircraft? Also, what is the gross weight of standard wing aircraft? The Velocity web site has 2300lb as the suggested gross. I have seen others quote 2400. What is the generally accepted number for standard wing plane with Franklin? Incidentally, my plane tipped the scale at 1423lb. A bit on the heavy side compared to 1300lb factory quotes. Hiroo _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From c.harbert at comcast.net Thu Jun 22 19:12:21 2006 From: c.harbert at comcast.net (Chuck Harbert) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 00:12:21 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate References: Message-ID: <0f9b01c6965a$b4995ad0$b26eaa43@9B6B411> When you idealize the fuel tank system who would design a 3 section tank with only a 3/8" line connecting the 2 big tanks to a small tank that is vented and can draw more fuel than the gravity fed big tanks can supply thru the 2 small 3/8" fuel fill lines? It probably was designed for a max 200hp Lyco 360 (or 220 hp Franklin). If I ever get a low fuel warning in the sump and there's fuel in the strakes, I think I'll put in bigger strake to sump fuel lines (at least 1/2"). I'd also just throttle back on fuel flow and see if the light goes out in a short time. On a long climb at full power with a 300 hp Lyco 540 (especially turbo'd), you could theoretically empty the sump and pull air into the system. Not a pleasant thought. I now also think that it would be a bad idea not to vent the sump because you could collapse it from the suction of the pump. Chuck H --------------------------------------- Scott Derrick wrote: Not that I like to admit it, but once I did land with about a gallon of gas in each strake. I have a 4-5 gallon sump. I don't have a low sump sensor. I do have fuel sensors in the tanks with a low fuel alarm if either tank gets below 5 gallons. The fuel sensors were indicating empty when taxing to the fuel island. The engine ran fine. Scott From alventures at cox.net Thu Jun 22 20:01:23 2006 From: alventures at cox.net (alventures at cox.net) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 01:01:23 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate Message-ID: <4009537.1151024473843.JavaMail.root@fed1wml06> ---- Chuck Harbert wrote: . > > I now also think that it would be a bad idea not to vent the sump because > you could collapse it from the suction of the pump. > > Chuck H > Not to worry. Vapor lock would occur long before the sump would be damaged. Al (back to vacationing) From Dastaten at earthlink.net Fri Jun 23 06:56:02 2006 From: Dastaten at earthlink.net (David Staten) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 11:56:02 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Spray Lat removal help Message-ID: <449BD690.6040500@earthlink.net> This is cross posted to all the groups I am on.. my apologies if anyone is bugged by it. It appears that we are experiencing some problems with Spray-Lat.. in that it is being difficult to remove. In our instance, it has been on for greater than 2 years.. (i know.. the website says after one year it becomes difficult to remove.. too late for that now..).. and we are having difficulty removing it without damaging the underlying plexi. What are some safe techniques for removing well-cured spray-lat from the canopy? Soak it under wet linen? Cover it with KY or some other water based substrate? (Spray lat was water based.. thats where they KY idea came from..).. Any help would be appreciated. Dave From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 23 09:11:09 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:11:09 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: W&B arm for fuel tanks for STD aircraft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449BF65A.7080404@tnstaafl.net> Hiroo, I have a Std RG, with an average Fuel arm of 123.7 I don't understand why you can't remove the fuel from your aircraft and then pour it in to the fuel tanks 5 gallons per side at a time though? Scott Hiroo Umeno wrote: > > We weighed the plane yesterday and now getting around to computing the > W&B computations. > > > > While we pretty much followed the excellent spreadsheet I downloaded, > there was one thing we could not do. Since we do not have a way of > fueling and de-fueling the plane easily, we cannot compute the arm for > the fuel tanks using the methods outlined in the spreadsheet. > > > > Since our plane is pretty much in stock configuration, with the tank > size and location per plan, the CG for the fuel tank should be in a > known location. Does anyone have the arm number for the fuel tanks > for STD fuselage, STD wing aircraft? > > > > Also, what is the gross weight of standard wing aircraft? The > Velocity web site has 2300lb as the suggested gross. I have seen > others quote 2400. What is the generally accepted number for standard > wing plane with Franklin? > > > > Incidentally, my plane tipped the scale at 1423lb. A bit on the heavy > side compared to 1300lb factory quotes. > > > > Hiroo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - What county can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance. Thomas Jefferson From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 23 09:12:12 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:12:12 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate In-Reply-To: <4009537.1151024473843.JavaMail.root@fed1wml06> References: <4009537.1151024473843.JavaMail.root@fed1wml06> Message-ID: <449BF6A6.2060407@tnstaafl.net> alventures at cox.net wrote: > ---- Chuck Harbert wrote: > . > >> I now also think that it would be a bad idea not to vent the sump because >> you could collapse it from the suction of the pump. >> >> Chuck H >> >> > Not to worry. Vapor lock would occur long before the sump would be damaged. > > Hmmm.. I wonder? Scott -- - What county can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance. Thomas Jefferson From xl340hp at yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 15:19:39 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 20:19:39 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate In-Reply-To: <449BF6A6.2060407@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <20060623201920.38349.qmail@web51902.mail.yahoo.com> - Scott Derrick wrote: > Hmmm.. I wonder? -- alventures at cox.net wrote: >> Not to worry. Vapor lock would occur long before >> the sump would be damaged. --- Chuck Harbert wrote: >>> I now also think that it would be a bad idea not >>> to vent the sump because you could collapse it >>> from the suction of the pump. If you cap off the sump vent line the sump can still vent via both fuel strake vents. In this configuration, there is a "suction" scenario where nearly empty strakes can't keep up with sump's gravity flow rate - but the resulting slight vacuum in the sump is certainly nothing that's going to compromise the structural integrity of the sump. I performed the following extreme test ('cause I wanted to know): I capped off ALL three vent lines and let the fuel flow out downstream of the sump until it stopped. I then turned on the electric fuel pump and sucked 4 gallons of fuel out of the system. I had tapped a vacuum gauge into the system which read about 3.5 in/hg. I'd estimate this is 5-10 times more vacuum a sump would see just from being non-vented. Brett is cringing right now... This scenario is comparable an airplane (say a spam can) where a vent line becomes fully obstructed and the mechanical or electric fuel pumps suck fuel from a tank until they just can't suck no more. Of course, Velocity's are a step ahead in this regard since we have an alternate fuel vent line w/ a check valve. However, vapor lock is a whole other issue whenever your sucking fuel. Oh, and then there's the sump air pocket from un-ported strake pickups to deal with too... Pat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From reflector at velocityxl.com Fri Jun 23 16:25:32 2006 From: reflector at velocityxl.com (Brett Ferrell) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 21:25:32 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate References: <20060623201920.38349.qmail@web51902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c901c6970b$80497510$0502a8c0@POWERSPEC> Pat - I'm simply aghast. ;-) Actually, I think I said it would *probably* be OK, but didn't want to try it, but I appreciate the data, that makes me feel better. As I say, I'd worried ever since seeing a steel tank crushed at work, and reading about accidents like this one: http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2003/sp0305.html Glad to hear that it probably won't affect any of us. Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 4:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate >- Scott Derrick wrote: > >> Hmmm.. I wonder? > > -- alventures at cox.net wrote: > >>> Not to worry. Vapor lock would occur long before >>> the sump would be damaged. > > --- Chuck Harbert wrote: > >>>> I now also think that it would be a bad idea not >>>> to vent the sump because you could collapse it >>> > from the suction of the pump. > > > If you cap off the sump vent line the sump can still > vent via both fuel strake vents. In this > configuration, there is a "suction" scenario where > nearly empty strakes can't keep up with sump's gravity > flow rate - but the resulting slight vacuum in the > sump is certainly nothing that's going to compromise > the structural integrity of the sump. > > I performed the following extreme test ('cause I > wanted to know): I capped off ALL three vent lines and > let the fuel flow out downstream of the sump until it > stopped. I then turned on the electric fuel pump and > sucked 4 gallons of fuel out of the system. I had > tapped a vacuum gauge into the system which read about > 3.5 in/hg. I'd estimate this is 5-10 times more vacuum > a sump would see just from being non-vented. Brett is > cringing right now... > > This scenario is comparable an airplane (say a spam > can) where a vent line becomes fully obstructed and > the mechanical or electric fuel pumps suck fuel from a > tank until they just can't suck no more. Of course, > Velocity's are a step ahead in this regard since we > have an alternate fuel vent line w/ a check valve. > > However, vapor lock is a whole other issue whenever > your sucking fuel. Oh, and then there's the sump air > pocket from un-ported strake pickups to deal with > too... > > Pat > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From xl340hp at yahoo.com Fri Jun 23 17:26:27 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:26:27 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Flow Rate In-Reply-To: <00c901c6970b$80497510$0502a8c0@POWERSPEC> Message-ID: <20060623222603.18574.qmail@web51903.mail.yahoo.com> Hey Brett, I meant to imply (in jest) that you'd be cringing that I even performed such a test, not the result. Sorry if that came across wrong. I actually did it a while back (years)- before you raised the collapsing tank issues or I probably wouldn't have. My justifying logic at the time was that if fuel pumps could fail airplane fuel tanks (due to blocked vent lines) we'd all know about it by now and that certainly we all needed to know if it does happen in Velocity's. Of course, your aopa article link blows that logic out out of the water... Best, Pat --- Brett Ferrell wrote: > Actually, I think I said it would *probably* be OK, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 23 19:53:52 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 00:53:52 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: W&B arm for fuel tanks for STD aircraft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449C8CF0.3050405@tnstaafl.net> just to be clear my average fuel arm of 123.7 is an average. as I remember it ranged from .5 to .9 as I added fuel. Gross weight, I think its what ever you decide to flight test it to? With my io360 I used 2400 as my gross. I'm raising mine to 2600 after my engine and gear upgrade. Scott Hiroo Umeno wrote: > I did this too but when I did this, I did it with water and before the > fuel system was all plumbed together. > > Now that I have everything pretty much ready, I cannot put water in > the system. > > I figure I will use the generic number for now, then when I fully fuel > the plane, then I can measure again and get the real number. For now, > I think 123.7 seems reasonable enough. > > By the way, what is the concensus on the Gross Weight? > > Hiroo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dave Bertram > *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2006 4:12 PM > *To:* reflector at tvbf.org > *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: W&B arm for fuel tanks for STD aircraft > > I filled my tanks as advised 5 gallons at a time and marked my sight > gauges for each 5 gallons. I made sure I had exactly 5 gallons in the > can. > > Dave lBertram > 350 TX > > /-------Original Message-------/ > > /*From:*/ Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > > /*Date:*/ 06/23/06 09:23:03 > /*To:*/ Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > > /*Subject:*/ Re: REFLECTOR: W&B arm for fuel tanks for STD aircraft > > Hiroo, > > I have a Std RG, with an average Fuel arm of 123.7 > > I don't understand why you can't remove the fuel from your aircraft and > then pour it in to the fuel tanks 5 gallons per side at a time though? > > Scott > > > Hiroo Umeno wrote: > > > > We weighed the plane yesterday and now getting around to computing the > > W&B computations. > > > > > > > > While we pretty much followed the excellent spreadsheet I downloaded, > > there was one thing we could not do. Since we do not have a way of > > fueling and de-fueling the plane easily, we cannot compute the arm for > > the fuel tanks using the methods outlined in the spreadsheet. > > > > > > > > Since our plane is pretty much in stock configuration, with the tank > > size and location per plan, the CG for the fuel tank should be in a > > known location. Does anyone have the arm number for the fuel tanks > > for STD fuselage, STD wing aircraft? > > > > > > > > Also, what is the gross weight of standard wing aircraft? The > > Velocity web site has 2300lb as the suggested gross. I have seen > > others quote 2400. What is the generally accepted number for standard > > wing plane with Franklin? > > > > > > > > Incidentally, my plane tipped the scale at 1423lb. A bit on the heavy > > side compared to 1300lb factory quotes. > > > > > > > > Hiroo > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > -- > > - > What county can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not > warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of > resistance. > > Thomas Jefferson > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. Molly Ivans From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 23 20:09:34 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 01:09:34 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Soda Blaster In-Reply-To: <449C8CF0.3050405@tnstaafl.net> References: <449C8CF0.3050405@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <449C90AC.6090205@tnstaafl.net> Sanding the old paint off to repaint my plane. One wing down, one to go. Just thinking about crawling around under the fuselage and strakes to sand the under side makes me tired! A couple friends of mine have a body shop near by and they own a soda blaster that I can use. Big ol 185 CFM diesel compressor to run the blaster too. Has anybody done this? Remove old paint on fiberglass plane with one of these? Can I use this and not have to re-apply micro? Or should I say , can I just remove the top coat and not go very far through the primer with out removing the micro with a soda blaster? Scott -- - The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. Molly Ivans From s_korney at hotmail.com Sat Jun 24 00:31:49 2006 From: s_korney at hotmail.com (steve korney) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 05:31:49 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <543.4048b5.31ce2165@aol.com> Message-ID: If you fly over gross weight but within the extended CG limits, you must avoid heavy "G" loads; make gentle turns, reduce speed in gusty weather and make good landings . . . and have good luck! Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: NMFlyer1 at aol.com Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list To: reflector at tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 01:02:29 EDT Seemed like a good time to ask this question with all the W&B questions. I have a 173 FGE. Empty weight is supposed to be between 1250 and 1400 LBS. With what I have done installing the aluminum 4.3L Chevy, Superfilling all the flying & control surfaces,,, etc.... I should come in about 1400LBS. The thing is, I have 340 HP in a 173 for about the same weight as a 200HP IO-360. Where do I put my gross weight? I know Bill Mulrooney put his V8 powered 173RG at 2900lbs with his extra power (and lots of extra weight). I did get a tad of advice from a factory rep. I was told to add up the empty weight of my plane... full fuel... four-200LB people, and 200 LBS of baggage. Then add 100LBS and use that number. The reasoning was that my plane will haul almost anything with the extra HP, and you want to make sure that you are ALWAYS within W&B on paperwork to satisfy the FAA and insurance toads. Any input? Thanks Kurt _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From reflector at velocityxl.com Sat Jun 24 08:02:54 2006 From: reflector at velocityxl.com (Brett Ferrell) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:02:54 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Soda Blaster References: <449C8CF0.3050405@tnstaafl.net> <449C90AC.6090205@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <012601c6978e$7c90c350$0502a8c0@POWERSPEC> Scott, The CanardZone forums talked about this some, check out http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net/showthread.php?t=1369&highlight=blasting Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 9:09 PM Subject: REFLECTOR: Soda Blaster > Sanding the old paint off to repaint my plane. One wing down, one to go. > > Just thinking about crawling around under the fuselage and strakes to > sand the under side makes me tired! > > A couple friends of mine have a body shop near by and they own a soda > blaster that I can use. Big ol 185 CFM diesel compressor to run the > blaster too. > > Has anybody done this? Remove old paint on fiberglass plane with one > of these? Can I use this and not have to re-apply micro? Or should I > say , can I just remove the top coat and not go very far through the > primer with out removing the micro with a soda blaster? > > Scott > > -- > > - > The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. > > Molly Ivans > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From scott at tnstaafl.net Sat Jun 24 08:37:46 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 13:37:46 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <001d01c69784$0cd15340$0501a8c0@scott> References: <543.4048b5.31ce2165@aol.com> <001d01c69784$0cd15340$0501a8c0@scott> Message-ID: <449D3FFC.9090605@tnstaafl.net> >>I agree with Steve K., adding extra weight "eats" into the loading strength safety factor - in other words, advise caution on high speeds in turb conditions. This sounds odd(wrong) to me.. For any airplane you reduce Maneuvering (Va) speed if you are light. The speed for Va given in most POH's is for gross weight and you reduce that speed the lighter you are. It would seem logical to me that Va would be reduced even further the heavier you were? So unless somebody can show me the beef , I will continue to fly under the understanding that the heavier I am the safer I am as far as turbulence is concerned(at the same speed).. An added benefit to being heavy is you also get a smoother ride in turbulence. Now I will agree that the heavier you are requires a softer landing. Three of the requirements to increasing my gross is to upgrade the nose gear including the new XL type bushings, add additional carbon torsional wraps to the main gear and upgrade the brakes. Scott D. Scott Baker wrote: > I have flown the factory 173FG (200hp) up to 2900 pounds (sea level, > 80-degrees) doing some heavy lifting studies for a customer - the > aircraft lifted off within 2000' and sustained a climb rate of 400 to > 500 fpm - finally got it to 10,000' - aircraft handled well, just > lacking climb performance with the 200hp. I agree with Steve K., > adding extra weight "eats" into the loading strength safety factor - > in other words, advise caution on high speeds in turb conditions. > SB > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* NMFlyer1 at aol.com > *To:* reflector at tvbf.org > *Sent:* Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:02 AM > *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > Seemed like a good time to ask this question with all the W&B > questions. > > I have a 173 FGE. Empty weight is supposed to be between 1250 and > 1400 LBS. With what I have done installing the aluminum 4.3L > Chevy, Superfilling all the flying & control surfaces,,, etc.... I > should come in about 1400LBS. > > The thing is, I have 340 HP in a 173 for about the same weight as > a 200HP IO-360. > Where do I put my gross weight? I know Bill Mulrooney put his V8 > powered 173RG at 2900lbs with his extra power (and lots of extra > weight). I did get a tad of advice from a factory rep. I was told > to add up the empty weight of my plane... full fuel... four-200LB > people, and 200 LBS of baggage. Then add 100LBS and use that > number. The reasoning was that my plane will haul almost anything > with the extra HP, and you want to make sure that you are ALWAYS > within W&B on paperwork to satisfy the FAA and insurance toads. > > Any input? > > Thanks Kurt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw, Liberty From michalk at awpi.com Sat Jun 24 10:56:08 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:56:08 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <001d01c69784$0cd15340$0501a8c0@scott> References: <543.4048b5.31ce2165@aol.com> <001d01c69784$0cd15340$0501a8c0@scott> Message-ID: <449D7F74.2070509@awpi.com> I would imagine that given the arrangement of the fixed gear "hoop", that it would handle hard landings better than the "peg leg" design of the retracts. Of course there is the nose gear... And that brings up a thought. How good are some of you guys greasing the landings? Can you land a V without touching the nose gear on the ground? Or is it a plop it down manuever? What does the perfect landing look like? Scott Baker wrote: > I have flown the factory 173FG (200hp) up to 2900 pounds (sea level, > 80-degrees) doing some heavy lifting studies for a customer - the > aircraft lifted off within 2000' and sustained a climb rate of 400 to > 500 fpm - finally got it to 10,000' - aircraft handled well, just > lacking climb performance with the 200hp. I agree with Steve K., adding > extra weight "eats" into the loading strength safety factor - in other > words, advise caution on high speeds in turb conditions. > SB > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* NMFlyer1 at aol.com > *To:* reflector at tvbf.org > *Sent:* Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:02 AM > *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > Seemed like a good time to ask this question with all the W&B > questions. > > I have a 173 FGE. Empty weight is supposed to be between 1250 and > 1400 LBS. With what I have done installing the aluminum 4.3L Chevy, > Superfilling all the flying & control surfaces,,, etc.... I should > come in about 1400LBS. > > The thing is, I have 340 HP in a 173 for about the same weight as a > 200HP IO-360. > Where do I put my gross weight? I know Bill Mulrooney put his V8 > powered 173RG at 2900lbs with his extra power (and lots of extra > weight). I did get a tad of advice from a factory rep. I was told to > add up the empty weight of my plane... full fuel... four-200LB > people, and 200 LBS of baggage. Then add 100LBS and use that number. > The reasoning was that my plane will haul almost anything with the > extra HP, and you want to make sure that you are ALWAYS within W&B > on paperwork to satisfy the FAA and insurance toads. > > Any input? > > Thanks Kurt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From cjensen at dts9000.com Sat Jun 24 11:12:02 2006 From: cjensen at dts9000.com (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 16:12:02 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B31D9FAA@lucky.dts.local> Landing technique: Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is. My XLRG has always been a 'plopper'. Some say those with a speed brake seems to create a cushion of air under the nose that reduces the plopping. Then again, some may have better technique than I...will, actually most do. The odd thing is, though the nose always plops on, the couple times I've had nose wheel shimmy, I've actually been able to lift the nose off again and hold it off for a go around or to lower it for a second try. It seems that the canard stalls/plops onto the runway, yet there is enough elevator lift, when applied immediately, to raise the nose again. Strange. Chuck Jensen > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Brian Michalk > How good are some of you guys greasing the landings? Can you land a V > without touching the nose gear on the ground? Or is it a plop it down > manuever? > > What does the perfect landing look like? From s_korney at hotmail.com Sat Jun 24 12:42:35 2006 From: s_korney at hotmail.com (steve korney) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 17:42:35 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <449D3FFC.9090605@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Snip "You are correct in that at a lower wt the wing can handle a higher g loading. However, this is my take on the subject: 1) Load factors on other aircraft components (engine mounts, avionics boxes, etc) are designed around the maneuver speed load factor (Nmax at a heavy weight). So although the wing can handle higher gs at lower weights, other components can not. This is why maneuvering speed limits you in terms of g loading, not total load (lbs). Only at max wt does it limit your total load. Refer to FAR 23.371 and 23.423. 2) The definition of VA (maneuvering speed)is that it does not allow you to exceed a certain G-LEVEL. Yes, it so happens that at the max weight and above this g-level structural failure will result(just another reason not to exceed VA). But the bottom line is the definition is what it is: its a 'g-level' definition. 3) There is nothing on an airplane that will tell you what your maximum lift is (we're talking the good old days now - not the new technology stuff. Remember, these defintions and terms were created long ago). So there is no way that a pilot can know when the maximum load is exceeded. But, a simple accelerometer can be used for this purpose. And if the pilot never exceeds Nmax (regardless of weight), then he will never overload the aircraft. In fact at light weights, he will have healthy safety margins (this is a good thing)." Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: Scott Derrick Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 07:37:00 -0600 >>I agree with Steve K., adding extra weight "eats" into the loading strength safety factor - in other words, advise caution on high speeds in turb conditions. This sounds odd(wrong) to me.. For any airplane you reduce Maneuvering (Va) speed if you are light. The speed for Va given in most POH's is for gross weight and you reduce that speed the lighter you are. It would seem logical to me that Va would be reduced even further the heavier you were? So unless somebody can show me the beef , I will continue to fly under the understanding that the heavier I am the safer I am as far as turbulence is concerned(at the same speed).. An added benefit to being heavy is you also get a smoother ride in turbulence. Now I will agree that the heavier you are requires a softer landing. Three of the requirements to increasing my gross is to upgrade the nose gear including the new XL type bushings, add additional carbon torsional wraps to the main gear and upgrade the brakes. Scott D. Scott Baker wrote: > I have flown the factory 173FG (200hp) up to 2900 pounds (sea level, > 80-degrees) doing some heavy lifting studies for a customer - the > aircraft lifted off within 2000' and sustained a climb rate of 400 to > 500 fpm - finally got it to 10,000' - aircraft handled well, just > lacking climb performance with the 200hp. I agree with Steve K., > adding extra weight "eats" into the loading strength safety factor - > in other words, advise caution on high speeds in turb conditions. > SB > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* NMFlyer1 at aol.com > *To:* reflector at tvbf.org > *Sent:* Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:02 AM > *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > Seemed like a good time to ask this question with all the W&B > questions. > > I have a 173 FGE. Empty weight is supposed to be between 1250 and > 1400 LBS. With what I have done installing the aluminum 4.3L > Chevy, Superfilling all the flying & control surfaces,,, etc.... I > should come in about 1400LBS. > > The thing is, I have 340 HP in a 173 for about the same weight as > a 200HP IO-360. > Where do I put my gross weight? I know Bill Mulrooney put his V8 > powered 173RG at 2900lbs with his extra power (and lots of extra > weight). I did get a tad of advice from a factory rep. I was told > to add up the empty weight of my plane... full fuel... four-200LB > people, and 200 LBS of baggage. Then add 100LBS and use that > number. The reasoning was that my plane will haul almost anything > with the extra HP, and you want to make sure that you are ALWAYS > within W&B on paperwork to satisfy the FAA and insurance toads. > > Any input? > > Thanks Kurt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw, Liberty _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From lwcoen at hotmail.com Sat Jun 24 12:53:21 2006 From: lwcoen at hotmail.com (Laurence Coen) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 17:53:21 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights References: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B31D9FAA@lucky.dts.local> Message-ID: When I took my transition training I was shown how to hold off the nose gear on a landing. One of these days I'm going to get it right. The problem is this. When the mains touch, the weight shifts from being carried by the wing to being carried by the gear. This is like moving the center of lift aft which wants to dump the nose. The trick is to catch the nose with a quick aft movement of the stick just as the mains touch. The first time I tried this I went flying again. If your too late the nose plops and bounds back into the air. That's the how you do it but it takes lots of practice to make it work. This is why I think transition training is worth the time and trouble. It could save you from breaking something. Larry Coen N136LC SE/RG Franklin/IVO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:13 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights > Landing technique: Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is. > > My XLRG has always been a 'plopper'. Some say those with a speed brake > seems to create a cushion of air under the nose that reduces the > plopping. Then again, some may have better technique than I...will, > actually most do. > > The odd thing is, though the nose always plops on, the couple times I've > had nose wheel shimmy, I've actually been able to lift the nose off > again and hold it off for a go around or to lower it for a second try. > It seems that the canard stalls/plops onto the runway, yet there is > enough elevator lift, when applied immediately, to raise the nose again. > Strange. > > Chuck Jensen > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > On >> Behalf Of Brian Michalk > > >> How good are some of you guys greasing the landings? Can you land a > V >> without touching the nose gear on the ground? Or is it a plop it down >> manuever? >> >> What does the perfect landing look like? > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From c.harbert at comcast.net Sat Jun 24 13:14:51 2006 From: c.harbert at comcast.net (Chuck Harbert) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 18:14:51 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross Weight References: Message-ID: <12bc01c697bb$176b14d0$b26eaa43@9B6B411> I took lessons from Scott Baker in Lincoln, CA when he was a young man, and he taught me that when the main gear touches down you should imediately pull back on the stick to reduce the "plopping" of the nose gear. He showed me it works, but in my 50+ landings in my own plane, I haven't done nearly as well as he showed me. I think it somewhat depends on landing speed and how you built the airplane. On takeoff, I really have to pull back to get the plane to rotate, and then imediately push forward to not over rotate. I know to level my plane on the ground, I need to put a 2x4 under the nose wheel which makes me think that the plane is "descending" on rollout, as well. This adds to the downward pressure on the nose upon landing. I think this is fairly normal from talking to other V drivers. Another thing that I've noticed is that you don't want to get too slow (under 65 kts for me) or the plane will respond slugishly and will tend to plop. Scott B told me to "fly it onto the runway" which allows you to better control the nose plop. Chuck H Std RG w/speed brake From xl340hp at yahoo.com Sat Jun 24 18:16:15 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:16:15 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <543.4048b5.31ce2165@aol.com> Message-ID: <20060624231558.57637.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Kurt, My take is that you can have three gross weights: 1) The one on paper. This one keeps you out of trouble with the FAA and should be as high as justifiable. Unfortunately you have to set this before your flight testing, but better to be too high than too low... Based on your HP, I'd use the factory's listed gross weights for the XL or XL-5. 2) Structural load limits. This one is hard to define since it depends on the g loadings during the flight and how hard/soft the landing is going to be. I believe one of the reasons the factory increased the Xl's gross weight on the -5 model from 2700 lbs to 2900 lbs was due to the carbon reinforced main gear legs. I'd look to the factory to help you get your head around this. For instance, I'd want to know if the standard fuselage has more, less, or the same structural load capability (including the gear) as the XL. If it's the same, then I'd feel pretty good about 2700 lbs since there are lots of XLs out there banging around at this weight. 3) Performance limits. Once you're flying you can steadily work up to the weight limits you're comfortable with based on the actual performance of your plane. Takeoff, climb, and braking performance would be what I'd look at most. FWIW, Pat --- NMFlyer1 at aol.com wrote: > Seemed like a good time to ask this question with > all the W&B questions. > > I have a 173 FGE. Empty weight is supposed to be > between 1250 and 1400 LBS. > With what I have done installing the aluminum 4.3L > Chevy, Superfilling all the > flying & control surfaces,,, etc.... I should come > in about 1400LBS. > > The thing is, I have 340 HP in a 173 for about the > same weight as a 200HP > IO-360. > Where do I put my gross weight? I know Bill > Mulrooney put his V8 powered > 173RG at 2900lbs with his extra power (and lots of > extra weight). I did get a tad > of advice from a factory rep. I was told to add up > the empty weight of my > plane... full fuel... four-200LB people, and 200 LBS > of baggage. Then add 100LBS > and use that number. The reasoning was that my plane > will haul almost anything > with the extra HP, and you want to make sure that > you are ALWAYS within W&B > on paperwork to satisfy the FAA and insurance toads. > > Any input? > > Thanks Kurt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lwcoen at hotmail.com Sat Jun 24 18:46:14 2006 From: lwcoen at hotmail.com (Laurence Coen) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:46:14 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross Weight References: <12bc01c697bb$176b14d0$b26eaa43@9B6B411> Message-ID: To level my plane on the ground I have to raise the MAIN gear about 3/4". Larry Coen SE/RG Franklin/IVO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Harbert" To: Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:21 PM Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross Weight >I took lessons from Scott Baker in Lincoln, CA when he was a young man, and > he taught me that when the main gear touches down you should imediately > pull > back on the stick to reduce the "plopping" of the nose gear. He showed me > it > works, but in my 50+ landings in my own plane, I haven't done nearly as > well > as he showed me. > > I think it somewhat depends on landing speed and how you built the > airplane. On takeoff, I really have to pull back to get the plane to > rotate, > and then imediately push forward to not over rotate. I know to level my > plane on the ground, I need to put a 2x4 under the nose wheel which makes > me > think that the plane is "descending" on rollout, as well. This adds to the > downward pressure on the nose upon landing. I think this is fairly normal > from talking to other V drivers. > > Another thing that I've noticed is that you don't want to get too slow > (under 65 kts for me) or the plane will respond slugishly and will tend to > plop. Scott B told me to "fly it onto the runway" which allows you to > better > control the nose plop. > > Chuck H > Std RG w/speed brake > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From djroyer at earthlink.net Sat Jun 24 20:20:39 2006 From: djroyer at earthlink.net (Donald Royer) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 01:20:39 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross Weight Message-ID: <410-22006602511753553@earthlink.net> Mine is like Larry's. It is a 173 RGE and it requires about 3/4" under the mains to level it. When flying solo, it requires only a slight tug on the stick to rotate. Sometimes when I get lucky I can hold the nose off on landing, but it usually polps. Don > [Original Message] > From: Laurence Coen > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > Date: 6/24/2006 5:46:01 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross Weight > > To level my plane on the ground I have to raise the MAIN gear about 3/4". > > Larry Coen > SE/RG Franklin/IVO > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Harbert" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:21 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross Weight > > > >I took lessons from Scott Baker in Lincoln, CA when he was a young man, and > > he taught me that when the main gear touches down you should imediately > > pull > > back on the stick to reduce the "plopping" of the nose gear. He showed me > > it > > works, but in my 50+ landings in my own plane, I haven't done nearly as > > well > > as he showed me. > > > > I think it somewhat depends on landing speed and how you built the > > airplane. On takeoff, I really have to pull back to get the plane to > > rotate, > > and then imediately push forward to not over rotate. I know to level my > > plane on the ground, I need to put a 2x4 under the nose wheel which makes > > me > > think that the plane is "descending" on rollout, as well. This adds to the > > downward pressure on the nose upon landing. I think this is fairly normal > > from talking to other V drivers. > > > > Another thing that I've noticed is that you don't want to get too slow > > (under 65 kts for me) or the plane will respond slugishly and will tend to > > plop. Scott B told me to "fly it onto the runway" which allows you to > > better > > control the nose plop. > > > > Chuck H > > Std RG w/speed brake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From scott at tnstaafl.net Sat Jun 24 22:24:54 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:24:54 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <449DA30A.000001.01556@DOWNSTAIRS> References: <543.4048b5.31ce2165@aol.com> <449DA30A.000001.01556@DOWNSTAIRS> Message-ID: <449E01DB.9070602@tnstaafl.net> So you flight tested it to 3100 lbs??? Dave Bertram wrote: > With the v- 8 in my Velo I put the gross at 3100. I may never go that > high but I am protected on the high end to not be over max gross > weight.. > Dave Bertram > 350 TX > > /-------Original Message-------/ > > /*From:*/ Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > > /*Date:*/ 06/24/06 00:05:42 > /*To:*/ reflector at tvbf.org > /*Subject:*/ REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > Seemed like a good time to ask this question with all the W&B questions. > > I have a 173 FGE. Empty weight is supposed to be between 1250 and 1400 > LBS. With what I have done installing the aluminum 4.3L Chevy, > Superfilling all the flying & control surfaces,,, etc.... I should > come in about 1400LBS. > > The thing is, I have 340 HP in a 173 for about the same weight as a > 200HP IO-360. > Where do I put my gross weight? I know Bill Mulrooney put his V8 > powered 173RG at 2900lbs with his extra power (and lots of extra > weight). I did get a tad of advice from a factory rep. I was told to > add up the empty weight of my plane... full fuel... four-200LB people, > and 200 LBS of baggage. Then add 100LBS and use that number. The > reasoning was that my plane will haul almost anything with the extra > HP, and you want to make sure that you are ALWAYS within W&B on > paperwork to satisfy the FAA and insurance toads. > > Any input? > > Thanks Kurt > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - I worry about my child and the Internet all the time, even though she's too young to have logged on yet. Here's what I worry about. I worry that 10 or 15 years from now, she will come to me and say 'Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press away from the Internet?' Mike Godwin, Electronic Frontier Foundation From cjensen at dts9000.com Sun Jun 25 08:08:21 2006 From: cjensen at dts9000.com (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:08:21 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B31D9FD3@lucky.dts.local> Here's my theory that explains the 'plop' landing characteristics (notice, theory is used to describe every hair-brain, wild-eyed idea that can't be tested, observed or support by real world experience!). Just before main gear touching, the canard/elevator is at a very fine point of equilibrium as we tend to gradually increase lift on the elevator to slow the rate of descent, even if we aren't flaring. The airspeed over the elevators is just barely adequate to provide the needed lift, so there is not a lot of reserved lift available. At touchdown, two thing happen simultaneously that loads up the elevator when the mains touch; 1) weight shift: the center of gravity, well ahead of the mains with passengers, causes a significant fraction of the weight on the mains to be transferred to the canard, 2) deceleration: since the axial center line of the plane's mass is well above the mains (maybe 3.5'?), when the mains touch and instant drag created, the mains want to stop but the forward momentum of the plane's mass is going to transfer a significant amount of the weight forward onto the nose (much like our upper bodies bob forward if someone slams on the brakes in a car). The sudden shift of weight to the nose upon touch down exceeds the lift capacity of the elevator, or simply stalls out the canard. Once touched down with a plop, the nose can often be lifted off again as the weight shift from main gear deceleration has been eliminated, so the elevator only has to overcome the static weight on the nose wheel, which it does on every take-off. Or, that once-in-ten times you are right on speed and can snatch the elevator at just the exact time, you may be able to grease it. For those that have a speed brake board deployed, the air cushion under the front of the plane and perhaps some lift from the board itself mutes the tendency of the nose to plop on touchdown. So, unless a plane is loaded lightly in front, carries extra speed on touchdown or the stars are lined up just right, we are probably destined to do more plopping than greasing. Or not............. Chuck Jensen > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Laurence Coen > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:55 PM > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > When I took my transition training I was shown how to hold off the nose > gear > on a landing. One of these days I'm going to get it right. The problem > is > this. When the mains touch, the weight shifts from being carried by the > wing to being carried by the gear. This is like moving the center of lift > aft which wants to dump the nose. The trick is to catch the nose with a > quick aft movement of the stick just as the mains touch. The first time I > tried this I went flying again. If your too late the nose plops and > bounds > back into the air. That's the how you do it but it takes lots of practice > to make it work. This is why I think transition training is worth the > time > and trouble. It could save you from breaking something. > > Larry Coen > N136LC > SE/RG Franklin/IVO > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Jensen" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > > > Landing technique: Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is. > > > > My XLRG has always been a 'plopper'. Some say those with a speed brake > > seems to create a cushion of air under the nose that reduces the > > plopping. Then again, some may have better technique than I...will, > > actually most do. > > > > The odd thing is, though the nose always plops on, the couple times I've > > had nose wheel shimmy, I've actually been able to lift the nose off > > again and hold it off for a go around or to lower it for a second try. > > It seems that the canard stalls/plops onto the runway, yet there is > > enough elevator lift, when applied immediately, to raise the nose again. > > Strange. > > > > Chuck Jensen > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > > On > >> Behalf Of Brian Michalk > > > > > >> How good are some of you guys greasing the landings? Can you land a > > V > >> without touching the nose gear on the ground? Or is it a plop it down > >> manuever? > >> > >> What does the perfect landing look like? > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From scott at tnstaafl.net Sun Jun 25 08:39:37 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:39:37 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Soda Blaster In-Reply-To: <012601c6978e$7c90c350$0502a8c0@POWERSPEC> References: <449C8CF0.3050405@tnstaafl.net> <449C90AC.6090205@tnstaafl.net> <012601c6978e$7c90c350$0502a8c0@POWERSPEC> Message-ID: <449E91FA.7070808@tnstaafl.net> Brett, actually this thread is about sand blasting new fiberglass to prep for micro. Both a different topic. thanks anyway, Scott Brett Ferrell wrote: > Scott, > > The CanardZone forums talked about this some, check out > http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net/showthread.php?t=1369&highlight=blasting > > Brett > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Derrick" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 9:09 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR: Soda Blaster > > > >> Sanding the old paint off to repaint my plane. One wing down, one to go. >> >> Just thinking about crawling around under the fuselage and strakes to >> sand the under side makes me tired! >> >> A couple friends of mine have a body shop near by and they own a soda >> blaster that I can use. Big ol 185 CFM diesel compressor to run the >> blaster too. >> >> Has anybody done this? Remove old paint on fiberglass plane with one >> of these? Can I use this and not have to re-apply micro? Or should I >> say , can I just remove the top coat and not go very far through the >> primer with out removing the micro with a soda blaster? >> >> Scott >> >> -- >> >> - >> The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. >> >> Molly Ivans >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > > -- - Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw, Liberty From fmarconi at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 25 09:12:09 2006 From: fmarconi at bellsouth.net (Fred Marconi) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:12:09 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Sump Tank FG-Elite References: <448D6E87.5090809@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002701c69861$19618930$6400a8c0@fmarconi> Larry: The sump tank has to be up enough so that the drain plug lays at least 1/2" from the bottom of the belly. In the event of a forced landing if you loose your landing gear or in the case of retractables when landing with the gear up, you do not want the drain valve sticking out the bottom , if anything protected so that it will not be broken off and fuel spill out and start a fire. This is explained in the manual if my memory serves me right. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:39 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Sump Tank FG-Elite > Larry, > > Mines a STD RG and I don't know what difference that makes. The bottom > of my sump is about an 1.25 inches above the floor, with an aluminum > tube that connect the sump to the sump drain valve... > > Scott > > lawrence epstein wrote: > > I am finally getting around to installing the sump tank in the plane. > > > > Is this supposed to end up in contact with the floor (at least at the > > sump drain hardpoint)? > > In my case, the side ducts interfere with the tabs on the sump tank I > > would have to grind off about 1/3 of the tab on each side in order to > > get the tank to drop down. At that point, it would still be interfered > > with by the brake line on each side @ the junction of the > > duct/floor/gear BH (that is where my aluminum break line goes thru the > > gear BH). > > > > > > Larry Epstein > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > > > > > > -- > > - > > I worry about my child and the Internet all the time, even though she's too young to have logged on yet. Here's what I worry about. I worry that 10 or 15 years from now, she will come to me and say 'Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press away from the Internet?' > > Mike Godwin, Electronic Frontier Foundation > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From aminetech at bluefrog.com Sun Jun 25 10:56:47 2006 From: aminetech at bluefrog.com (John Dibble) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:56:47 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Secret to Soft Landings References: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B31D9FAA@lucky.dts.local> Message-ID: <449EB1F5.333BF482@bluefrog.com> This was discussed at the symposium. If you trim the pitch just before landing, a soft landing is easy. After you stop, if your elevator is at the same position as when you trimmed for TO, then you trimmed it enough. When my mains touch, the nose practically holds itself off for a few seconds. Of course, you need to set the mains down gently....... John Laurence Coen wrote: > When I took my transition training I was shown how to hold off the nose gear > on a landing. One of these days I'm going to get it right. The problem is > this. When the mains touch, the weight shifts from being carried by the > wing to being carried by the gear. This is like moving the center of lift > aft which wants to dump the nose. The trick is to catch the nose with a > quick aft movement of the stick just as the mains touch. The first time I > tried this I went flying again. If your too late the nose plops and bounds > back into the air. That's the how you do it but it takes lots of practice > to make it work. This is why I think transition training is worth the time > and trouble. It could save you from breaking something. > > Larry Coen > N136LC > SE/RG Franklin/IVO > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Jensen" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > > Landing technique: Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is. > > > > My XLRG has always been a 'plopper'. Some say those with a speed brake > > seems to create a cushion of air under the nose that reduces the > > plopping. Then again, some may have better technique than I...will, > > actually most do. > > > > The odd thing is, though the nose always plops on, the couple times I've > > had nose wheel shimmy, I've actually been able to lift the nose off > > again and hold it off for a go around or to lower it for a second try. > > It seems that the canard stalls/plops onto the runway, yet there is > > enough elevator lift, when applied immediately, to raise the nose again. > > Strange. > > > > Chuck Jensen > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > > On > >> Behalf Of Brian Michalk > > > > > >> How good are some of you guys greasing the landings? Can you land a > > V > >> without touching the nose gear on the ground? Or is it a plop it down > >> manuever? > >> > >> What does the perfect landing look like? > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From quinnsct at hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 14:01:56 2006 From: quinnsct at hotmail.com (Timothy Quinlin) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:01:56 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: "Velocity" or "Experimental" In-Reply-To: <4ca.1bade28.31c47b17@aol.com> Message-ID: >From: NMFlyer1 at aol.com >Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >To: reflector at tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: "Velocity" or "Experimental" >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:22:31 EDT > >No, it is not what "they " all want to hear. Both are legal and the 100KT >range of "EXB" hardly provides enough information. Both are legal, use what >you >want. >There are almost as many hard nosed and ignorant controllers as there are >pilots. We can fix the problem or be part of it. That's why I provided the >information. > >Kurt Woo hoo, Kurt! Familiarity with what these aircraft (and many other GA aircraft) will do is sorely lacking. Reminds me of a scenario where the guy working the sector next to mine had stopped a VFR Berkut off SMO below a 737 off BUR. Once they were clear he lifted the climb restriction and the next thing I hear is "holy s..t!". He turned to me and asked what a Berkut was. "It's a Longeze on massive steroids, climbs like a homesick angel" I said. The Berk had gone from 4500' to 7500', real quick! For a very long time I attempted to educate, educate, educate but there really wasn't much interest among most of them. In the late 90s I posted a comment on the c-a list musing about that lack of familiarity. Got a real nasty off-board tongue-lashing from a former controller who took offense at my posting that. Go figure. Small world, eh? QN (Mike Quinlin) From jbujanda at dslextreme.com Sun Jun 25 17:00:42 2006 From: jbujanda at dslextreme.com (Jorge Bujanda) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:00:42 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes References: Message-ID: <449F0781.20501@dslextreme.com> In looking at the ASS catalog, I wanted to ask the group about experience with the 2" and 3" rolls of fiberglass they offer. It seems like the cloth weight is basically the same (8.7 vs 7.8 oz/yd) however, are these BID and do they come with the fibers at 45 degrees? In other words, can these be used in place of the recommended 45 degree cuts of BID? Thanks Regards, Jorge Bujanda Palmdale, CA XL FG Website: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/jbujanda/ Regards, Jorge Bujanda Palmdale, CA XL FG Website: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/jbujanda/ From alex157 at pwhome.com Sun Jun 25 18:33:13 2006 From: alex157 at pwhome.com (Alex Balic) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:33:13 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes In-Reply-To: <449F0781.20501@dslextreme.com> Message-ID: <00df01c698af$b9bbf700$6701a8c0@ALEX> No, unfortunately, the fiber orientation is not correct for the applications we use bid tape for ( inside corners ) the 90 degree tape causes the fibers to either have no support (along the axis of the corner) or difficult to bend into the corner (if they are perpendicular)- the 45 degree tape that you make will have 100% of the fibers crossing the corner at approximately the same angle which is less than 90 degrees due to the geometry. wish they did make a 45 degree tape, but it doesn't take too long with the scissors to make them really....... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jorge Bujanda Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:01 PM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes In looking at the ASS catalog, I wanted to ask the group about experience with the 2" and 3" rolls of fiberglass they offer. It seems like the cloth weight is basically the same (8.7 vs 7.8 oz/yd) however, are these BID and do they come with the fibers at 45 degrees? In other words, can these be used in place of the recommended 45 degree cuts of BID? Thanks Regards, Jorge Bujanda Palmdale, CA XL FG Website: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/jbujanda/ Regards, Jorge Bujanda Palmdale, CA XL FG Website: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/jbujanda/ _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From ljepstein at hotmail.com Sun Jun 25 19:09:06 2006 From: ljepstein at hotmail.com (lawrence epstein) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:09:06 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes In-Reply-To: <449F0781.20501@dslextreme.com> Message-ID: I considered buying the rolls, but found that you get much neater layups wetting out (measured out 1:1 glass:resin by weight)an un-cut sheet of the estimated square area on the THINIST plastic you can find. another layer on top. squeegee out the air and as much resin as you can get out and cut with a razor into strips with the correct bias/width. peel off 1 side, brush a layer of resin onto the "recipient site" and put in position. brush down smooth and THEN peel off 2nd layer of plastic using the brush at the separation edge. then peel ply over (EVERYTHING YOU DO!) brush down (no additional resin). This will give the "cleanest" lines & layups which are the lightest possible and will not require sanding prior to additional layups or primer. YOu might already know all of the above, but I had a lot of sloppy/heavy layups done b4 I learned it, not to mention the time I spent wrestling with rolls of 2"BID. Larry Epstein 173 FGE >From: Jorge Bujanda >Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:00:33 -0700 > >In looking at the ASS catalog, I wanted to ask the group about >experience with the 2" and 3" rolls of fiberglass they offer. It seems >like the cloth weight is basically the same (8.7 vs 7.8 oz/yd) however, >are these BID and do they come with the fibers at 45 degrees? In other >words, can these be used in place of the recommended 45 degree cuts of >BID? Thanks > >Regards, > >Jorge Bujanda >Palmdale, CA >XL FG > >Website: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/jbujanda/ > >Regards, > >Jorge Bujanda >Palmdale, CA >XL FG > >Website: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/jbujanda/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From michalk at awpi.com Mon Jun 26 09:26:21 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:26:21 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! In-Reply-To: <056D9017A3CF854AAF93DBD2CA17C2EE05B828@EVEREST.TroubleShooter.local> References: <056D9017A3CF854AAF93DBD2CA17C2EE05B828@EVEREST.TroubleShooter.local> Message-ID: <449FEE81.50802@awpi.com> Wow. That is nice. In your experience, do you notice any appreciable difference in vibration between a 4 bladed and three blade prop? Tom Martino wrote: > Paint and interior done! > > I POSTED PHOTOS! Take a look: http://www.tvbf.org/ > > Go to: Picture Gallery, then look for my directory: 173 Standard-Elite > RG - Wild Paint, Ferrari Interior > > > I WILL BE AT OSH. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From michalk at awpi.com Mon Jun 26 09:35:51 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:35:51 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Tying down a Velocity Message-ID: <449FF0BC.70002@awpi.com> I've seen this several places now. It seems when people tie down, they have the wings right over the tiedown, and the nose gear is far away from the tiedown. This seems opposite of how it should be. Shouldn't the nosewheel be right at the tiedown? It's the nose that is light and prone to tipping over the airplane. The only benefit of the way I see it done is that there is only one tiedown line to trip over rather than two. Tieing down the main wing would seem almost redundant anyway, other than a gust lifting one wing. But since we have little dihedral, and not much of a moment with respect to the landing gear, it just doesn't look like the plane can get tipped over by the main wing. From tmartino at troubleshooter.com Mon Jun 26 09:51:29 2006 From: tmartino at troubleshooter.com (Tom Martino) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:51:29 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! Message-ID: <056D9017A3CF854AAF93DBD2CA17C2EE091424@EVEREST.TroubleShooter.local> The four blade prop is quieter ... and it is smooth as silk. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of michalk Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:26 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! Wow. That is nice. In your experience, do you notice any appreciable difference in vibration between a 4 bladed and three blade prop? Tom Martino wrote: > Paint and interior done! > > I POSTED PHOTOS! Take a look: http://www.tvbf.org/ > > Go to: Picture Gallery, then look for my directory: 173 Standard-Elite > RG - Wild Paint, Ferrari Interior > > > I WILL BE AT OSH. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From dugasd at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 26 10:17:07 2006 From: dugasd at bellsouth.net (Rene Dugas) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:17:07 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Tying down a Velocity In-Reply-To: <449FF0BC.70002@awpi.com> Message-ID: <000001c69933$a2ad3540$6801a8c0@ent3.local> My experience is that the "wing ropes" will not reach if the nose is tied down close. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of michalk Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:36 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: REFLECTOR: Tying down a Velocity I've seen this several places now. It seems when people tie down, they have the wings right over the tiedown, and the nose gear is far away from the tiedown. This seems opposite of how it should be. Shouldn't the nosewheel be right at the tiedown? It's the nose that is light and prone to tipping over the airplane. The only benefit of the way I see it done is that there is only one tiedown line to trip over rather than two. Tieing down the main wing would seem almost redundant anyway, other than a gust lifting one wing. But since we have little dihedral, and not much of a moment with respect to the landing gear, it just doesn't look like the plane can get tipped over by the main wing. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From scott at tnstaafl.net Mon Jun 26 10:34:31 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:34:31 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! In-Reply-To: <056D9017A3CF854AAF93DBD2CA17C2EE05B828@EVEREST.TroubleShooter.local> References: <056D9017A3CF854AAF93DBD2CA17C2EE05B828@EVEREST.TroubleShooter.local> Message-ID: <449FFE60.8010404@tnstaafl.net> Man that is one wild paint job!!! Nicely done Tom.. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > > Paint and interior done! > > I POSTED PHOTOS! Take a look: http://www.tvbf.org/ > > Go to: Picture Gallery, then look for my directory: 173 > Standard-Elite RG - Wild Paint, Ferrari Interior > > > I WILL BE AT OSH. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. Molly Ivans From scott at tnstaafl.net Mon Jun 26 10:37:03 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:37:03 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Tying down a Velocity In-Reply-To: <449FF0BC.70002@awpi.com> References: <449FF0BC.70002@awpi.com> Message-ID: <449FFEE8.6060107@tnstaafl.net> I tie down backwards to a conventional plane. Wings close to the tie downs, nose over the conventional tail position, I have a tie down loop up in the nose wheel well. Never had a problem here in the windy southwest. Scott michalk wrote: > I've seen this several places now. It seems when people tie down, they > have the wings right over the tiedown, and the nose gear is far away > from the tiedown. > > This seems opposite of how it should be. Shouldn't the nosewheel be > right at the tiedown? It's the nose that is light and prone to tipping > over the airplane. The only benefit of the way I see it done is that > there is only one tiedown line to trip over rather than two. > > Tieing down the main wing would seem almost redundant anyway, other than > a gust lifting one wing. But since we have little dihedral, and not > much of a moment with respect to the landing gear, it just doesn't look > like the plane can get tipped over by the main wing. > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > > -- - The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. Molly Ivans From len.baxter at gm.com Mon Jun 26 10:37:53 2006 From: len.baxter at gm.com (len.baxter at gm.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:37:53 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! Message-ID: I like the paint !!! Wild is an understatement !!!! What brand of prop ??? How did the takeoff and top speed change with the 4 blade?? __________________ The four blade prop is quieter ... and it is smooth as silk. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of michalk Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:26 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! Wow. That is nice. In your experience, do you notice any appreciable difference in vibration between a 4 bladed and three blade prop? Tom Martino wrote: > Paint and interior done! > > I POSTED PHOTOS! Take a look: http://www.tvbf.org/ > > Go to: Picture Gallery, then look for my directory: 173 Standard-Elite > RG - Wild Paint, Ferrari Interior > > > I WILL BE AT OSH. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From scott at tnstaafl.net Mon Jun 26 10:38:36 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:38:36 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <449FFF5A.8050106@tnstaafl.net> Our wing spar is conventional in that under normal loading, the upper part is in compression, the lower in tension, in equal amounts. Scott Lawrence Epstein wrote: > > I?m sure that is true. How good is this type of fiberglass material at > handling compressive loads? Isn?t most of our construction designed to > keep the fiberglass in tension/shear? > > Larry E > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > *On Behalf Of *Al Gietzen > *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2006 10:55 AM > *To:* 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' > *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Fiberglass Tapes > > In essence, the resin's purpose is to keep the fibers aligned. The > resin does not carry any of the load, therefore, any extra resin is > just unnecessary weight. > > I agree that excessive resin is unnecessary weight; but I?d say that > for compressive loads, the resin carries most of the load. > > Al > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech. Molly Ivans From mbuc310 at cox.net Mon Jun 26 12:21:42 2006 From: mbuc310 at cox.net (Matt Bucko) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:21:42 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 25, Issue 112 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: WOW! Bucko Scottsdale, AZ Today's Topics: 1. Re: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! (Tom Martino) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:46:15 -0600 From: "Tom Martino" Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Message-ID: <056D9017A3CF854AAF93DBD2CA17C2EE012635 at EVEREST.TroubleShooter.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It is an MT prop. My canard starts flying at 70 mph. ________________________________ From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org on behalf of len.baxter at gm.com Sent: Mon 6/26/2006 9:37 AM To: reflector at tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! I like the paint !!! Wild is an understatement !!!! What brand of prop ??? How did the takeoff and top speed change with the 4 blade?? __________________ The four blade prop is quieter ... and it is smooth as silk. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of michalk Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:26 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: FINALLY DONE - FIRST AIRSHOW! Wow. That is nice. In your experience, do you notice any appreciable difference in vibration between a 4 bladed and three blade prop? Tom Martino wrote: > Paint and interior done! > > I POSTED PHOTOS! Take a look: http://www.tvbf.org/ > > Go to: Picture Gallery, then look for my directory: 173 Standard-Elite > RG - Wild Paint, Ferrari Interior > > > I WILL BE AT OSH. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5333 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/private/reflector/attachments/20060626/32dfbed4/ attachment.bin ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose End of Reflector Digest, Vol 25, Issue 112 ****************************************** __________ NOD32 1.1625 (20060626) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From dugasd at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 26 18:07:37 2006 From: dugasd at bellsouth.net (Rene Dugas) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:07:37 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B31D9FD3@lucky.dts.local> Message-ID: <000001c69975$5f0f7630$6801a8c0@ent3.local> Chuck, I agree. I can frequently (3 of 5) set the mains down and ride the wheelie for several hundred feet with just me and 3/4ths fuel. The reason is - that is how I fly most of the time and PRACTICE it. Maintain concentration on the balance of the plane until below 45 knt when I loose rudder authority. I always "plop" at Oshkosh with three on board and luggage with half fuel load and slow. I always "plop" with heavy passengers in the front seat because I misjudge the weight and amount of needed tug on the stick at touchdown. (usually 1/4th inch to 1/2 inch at the top of the stick - I was not looking but I asked my passenger to estimate.) If one expects and practices the tug on touchdown it is very satisfying to hold the nose off. I usually touch down at 75 kts - 7 kts above stall. Usually 110 in the pattern and on final then 90 short final and 75 at touch down. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:10 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights Here's my theory that explains the 'plop' landing characteristics (notice, theory is used to describe every hair-brain, wild-eyed idea that can't be tested, observed or support by real world experience!). Just before main gear touching, the canard/elevator is at a very fine point of equilibrium as we tend to gradually increase lift on the elevator to slow the rate of descent, even if we aren't flaring. The airspeed over the elevators is just barely adequate to provide the needed lift, so there is not a lot of reserved lift available. At touchdown, two thing happen simultaneously that loads up the elevator when the mains touch; 1) weight shift: the center of gravity, well ahead of the mains with passengers, causes a significant fraction of the weight on the mains to be transferred to the canard, 2) deceleration: since the axial center line of the plane's mass is well above the mains (maybe 3.5'?), when the mains touch and instant drag created, the mains want to stop but the forward momentum of the plane's mass is going to transfer a significant amount of the weight forward onto the nose (much like our upper bodies bob forward if someone slams on the brakes in a car). The sudden shift of weight to the nose upon touch down exceeds the lift capacity of the elevator, or simply stalls out the canard. Once touched down with a plop, the nose can often be lifted off again as the weight shift from main gear deceleration has been eliminated, so the elevator only has to overcome the static weight on the nose wheel, which it does on every take-off. Or, that once-in-ten times you are right on speed and can snatch the elevator at just the exact time, you may be able to grease it. For those that have a speed brake board deployed, the air cushion under the front of the plane and perhaps some lift from the board itself mutes the tendency of the nose to plop on touchdown. So, unless a plane is loaded lightly in front, carries extra speed on touchdown or the stars are lined up just right, we are probably destined to do more plopping than greasing. Or not............. Chuck Jensen > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Laurence Coen > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:55 PM > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > When I took my transition training I was shown how to hold off the nose > gear > on a landing. One of these days I'm going to get it right. The problem > is > this. When the mains touch, the weight shifts from being carried by the > wing to being carried by the gear. This is like moving the center of lift > aft which wants to dump the nose. The trick is to catch the nose with a > quick aft movement of the stick just as the mains touch. The first time I > tried this I went flying again. If your too late the nose plops and > bounds > back into the air. That's the how you do it but it takes lots of practice > to make it work. This is why I think transition training is worth the > time > and trouble. It could save you from breaking something. > > Larry Coen > N136LC > SE/RG Franklin/IVO > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck Jensen" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Gross weights > > > > Landing technique: Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is. > > > > My XLRG has always been a 'plopper'. Some say those with a speed brake > > seems to create a cushion of air under the nose that reduces the > > plopping. Then again, some may have better technique than I...will, > > actually most do. > > > > The odd thing is, though the nose always plops on, the couple times I've > > had nose wheel shimmy, I've actually been able to lift the nose off > > again and hold it off for a go around or to lower it for a second try. > > It seems that the canard stalls/plops onto the runway, yet there is > > enough elevator lift, when applied immediately, to raise the nose again. > > Strange. > > > > Chuck Jensen > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > > On > >> Behalf Of Brian Michalk > > > > > >> How good are some of you guys greasing the landings? Can you land a > > V > >> without touching the nose gear on the ground? Or is it a plop it down > >> manuever? > >> > >> What does the perfect landing look like? > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From quinnsct at hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 18:22:16 2006 From: quinnsct at hotmail.com (Timothy Quinlin) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:22:16 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: "Velocity" or "Experimental" In-Reply-To: <8C866D66FBA33E6-FC0-13B@MBLK-D29.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: >From: nmflyer1 at aol.com >Reply-To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >To: reflector at tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: "Velocity" or "Experimental" >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:24:42 -0400 >You still working? figured you would be retired by now and getting your >velocity done. I'm still at Albuquerque Center... waiting out my time. > >how's life? > > Kurt Winker > I've retired and am looking for a hangar (RNO area) to finish the velocity. I really miss the job but not all the you-know-what that eventually came to be. It's sad what is happening in the biz. Good time to get out. Aren't these airplanes fantastic! Take care. QN >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From Dastaten at earthlink.net Mon Jun 26 18:30:19 2006 From: Dastaten at earthlink.net (David Staten) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:30:19 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Gross weights In-Reply-To: <449D3FFC.9090605@tnstaafl.net> References: <543.4048b5.31ce2165@aol.com> <001d01c69784$0cd15340$0501a8c0@scott> <449D3FFC.9090605@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <44A06DF5.6030908@earthlink.net> Scott Derrick wrote: >This sounds odd(wrong) to me.. For any airplane you reduce >Maneuvering (Va) speed if you are light. The speed for Va given in most >POH's is for gross weight and you reduce that speed the lighter you >are. It would seem logical to me that Va would be reduced even further >the heavier you were? > > This is a gross oversimplification, but essentially Va goes DOWN the heavier you are... think of it this way... Va is the changeover point between stalling the plane and breaking the plane at a given weight (again.. gross oversimplification for purists)... for radical or abrupt maneuvering. The idea is that at or below Va for a given weight, you will stall the load bearing surfaces before you exceed the design load limits or incur damage. Va is separate and distinct from the yellow arc, in which you should avoid turbulence/remain in smooth air (I believe the operant condition is a 50 fps vertical gust). If you are in VERY bad turbulence, slowing to VA isnt a bad idea, either. Dave From s_korney at hotmail.com Mon Jun 26 23:53:52 2006 From: s_korney at hotmail.com (steve korney) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 04:53:52 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nose wheel shimmy Message-ID: I like your diamond plate fashion statement.... "Nose wheel shimmy. One of the recurring irritations of an otherwise great airplane is the nosewheel anti-shimmy scheme. Velocity forum readers may recall this subject comes up periodically, stirs up a few people, and then dies with the generally lame advise to keep the Belview washers clean and tightened to some seemingly arbitrary value and stop whining." Best... Steve From xl340hp at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 00:37:27 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:37:27 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 In-Reply-To: <00ab01c6999f$7cee7550$24f9eb3f@texastornado> Message-ID: <20060627053623.36448.qmail@web51905.mail.yahoo.com> Sid, If the profile area and arm of your mass support is too large, the air flow will try to turn the wheel around in flight. However, it *looks* like the profile area of the wheel/tire will dominate (even with a shorter arm). If I recall, the F-15's arm/mass had a very low profile area. Also, depending on the design of your nose gear guides, it looks like the mass support could get hung up on them. Combine this with (as Al pointed out) the mass causing nose gear to be less self centering (or worse) once retracted, you could have a problem... Pat --- Sid Knox wrote: > No shimmy observed. I was feeling pretty smart until > my teenage son > pointed-out one potentially serious flaw in the > scheme. As I was digesting > that one, I thought of another probably catastrophic > flaw. > > This message is getting rather long so I will > continue the tale in a > follow-up. Anyone want to guess what are the two > flaws? (clearance up in the > nose when retracted was not one of them... there is > a bunch of space up > there). > > Sid Knox > Oklahoma > Velocity N199RS > W7QJQ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From steve at fatcatair.com Tue Jun 27 06:43:07 2006 From: steve at fatcatair.com (Steve Goldman) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:43:07 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 In-Reply-To: <004701c699d6$39b7b670$a42ea445@romott> References: <00ab01c6999f$7cee7550$24f9eb3f@texastornado> <004701c699d6$39b7b670$a42ea445@romott> Message-ID: <44A11A65.6090205@fatcatair.com> Ron Brown wrote: > However, the mass balance idea has been used on Vans RV's by adding > weight in the front of the nose wheel fairing. By the way, we are not > the only folks that suffer from nose wheel shimmy. Vans, Lancairs, and > F15's which all have castering nose gears. The Google search shows that > this has been a LONNNNNNGGGG time issue! So the Grumman's have a castering nose wheel and this comes up in the Grumman forum maybe once a year. It is always loose belleville washers. The manual set a 15-20 side force requirement which seems to solve the problem. This is nowhere near tight enough to make steering a problem, my Tiger can turn in place no problem. Even when people do have shimmy I've never heard of it causing a nose gear failure. So since joining this forum in Jan. this is probably the 3rd time it has come up here. So what is the big difference(s) that makes it so much worse for Velocities? My guess is that you can land a Tiger in full stall so you can easily keep the nose wheel off the ground (though many can't). Lower landing speed (65kts). It is also common to have a wheel fairing which might help though I doubt it. -- Steve Goldman '77 Tiger N28531 Velocity XL5-RG (T-3496hrs) Pittsboro, NC (9NC8) From amillin at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 27 08:19:22 2006 From: amillin at sbcglobal.net (Andy Millin) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:19:22 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 In-Reply-To: <000001c699a4$fd83aff0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <002101c699ec$6c1adff0$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> Sid, Could you resend your picture? For some reason I didn't receive the email. Thanks for doing the research. One of the builders had made a Nylon washer to replace the belville arrangement. I would like to see a picture of the Nylon solution. Sid, I like your style. Asking this group to come up with possible modes of failure is like asking who wants free pie and chips. :) I haven't seen the picture yet... -- You have a hard landing, maybe a few over time and it separates and goes through the prop From Rich Guerra's videos you can watch the nose gear touch down. When it comes down "plop" it appears it would shake the dampener rather violently. -- It bends the fork over time -- It gets caught in the door upon retraction or extension -- It costs more, weights more and adds complexity -- Possible balance issue combined with a looser nut lets it flip around 180 -- gear is backwards when you try to retract or extend ... Possibly on touch down -- Attach point creates a stress riser in the main gear fork. Over time the fork cracks Truth can be stranger than fiction. We will never know what the problems are if it isn't tried and the real information gathered. Thanks again for giving it your time and letting us know what you find. On a related note: I had spoken with my brother, also a pilot as well as president of a machining company. Alex had mentioned a type of hydraulic dampener that could be a solution. My brother agreed this could be a solution and pointed me to a few websites to see "like" examples. He immediately had concerns about the cost, size, weight and durability over time. His opinion was we could try it, but it would be expensive and had a high probability of being a less than perfect solution. Not to mention you will be testing it on your $200K aircraft. This has been a longstanding issue for aircraft with castering nose wheels. Trying to find an elegant solution must not be easy. From alex157 at pwhome.com Tue Jun 27 08:26:39 2006 From: alex157 at pwhome.com (Alex Balic) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:26:39 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 In-Reply-To: <44A11A65.6090205@fatcatair.com> Message-ID: <004501c699ed$3f6ee950$6501a8c0@ALEX> Someone flying might do an experiment with placing some butyl sealant (used for vacuum bagging) in the washer stack- it is a very viscous fluid that handles like a solid- pretty sure it does not dry out either, would resist rapid motion but allow slow motion- would need to add in increments, but might be worth a try- if it does not work, can be removed from the assembly with solvent. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Steve Goldman Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:46 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 Ron Brown wrote: > However, the mass balance idea has been used on Vans RV's by adding > weight in the front of the nose wheel fairing. By the way, we are not > the only folks that suffer from nose wheel shimmy. Vans, Lancairs, and > F15's which all have castering nose gears. The Google search shows that > this has been a LONNNNNNGGGG time issue! So the Grumman's have a castering nose wheel and this comes up in the Grumman forum maybe once a year. It is always loose belleville washers. The manual set a 15-20 side force requirement which seems to solve the problem. This is nowhere near tight enough to make steering a problem, my Tiger can turn in place no problem. Even when people do have shimmy I've never heard of it causing a nose gear failure. So since joining this forum in Jan. this is probably the 3rd time it has come up here. So what is the big difference(s) that makes it so much worse for Velocities? My guess is that you can land a Tiger in full stall so you can easily keep the nose wheel off the ground (though many can't). Lower landing speed (65kts). It is also common to have a wheel fairing which might help though I doubt it. -- Steve Goldman '77 Tiger N28531 Velocity XL5-RG (T-3496hrs) Pittsboro, NC (9NC8) _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From h.smith61 at verizon.net Tue Jun 27 09:05:56 2006 From: h.smith61 at verizon.net (Hal Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:05:56 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nose Wheel Pivot References: <000501c67a31$5622df70$6400a8c0@BigAl> <446C93C3.8010006@awpi.com> Message-ID: <008301c699f2$46293980$6500a8c0@hppav> How did you do the hydraulic steering? I am not interested in rotational damping only the steering since I am considering a new nose wheel design and would like to use an existing steering system if possible. Thanks Hal h.smith61 at verizon.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:33 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nose Wheel Pivot > Hehe, > > I've got the plans for hydraulic steering, but rotational damping would be > better suited to increase friction as rotational velocity increases. > > I think a rheopectic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheopecty > solution would work best. The opposite of thixotropic > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy solution. > > Basically, the faster you try to turn it, the more torque is required. It > seems like a fairly simple pancake damper could be built on this premise. > > There would need to be a lot of surface area, so the two halves of each > pancake would need grooves. > > Al Gietzen wrote: >> I have wondered if the 14# spec is break-away or in-motion force. Also, >> with the 14# setting with no load on the wheel, what is the force when >> the wheel is on the ground and you have a couple big bodies in the front >> seats? Sounds like Larry has taken a step in the right direction. I?m >> waiting for Brian to come up with the hydraulic rotational damperJ. >> >> Al >> >> *Subject:* RE: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >> >> That is exactly correct- the numbers for static vs sliding are closer >> with the plastic - a well lubed washer assy is going in the right >> direction, but it is difficult to maintain the correct pressure >> relationship- dirt, grease hardens, slings out ect. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Chuck Jensen >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:27 PM >> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >> *Subject:* RE: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >> >> Larry, >> >> Very good explanation of how static v. sliding friction affects our nose >> wheel steering, but I?m still having difficulty seeing how the plastic >> washer sharply changes the equation. Are you saying that the plastic >> washer reduces the differential between static and sliding, hence the >> static (aka breakout force) can be set lower without compromising the >> necessary sliding friction which dampens the shimmy? >> >> If that?s the theory, its comprehensible why it would reduce the >> breakout force necessary to still damp the shimmy, but is the >> change/improvement actually noticeable from a well lubbed Bellevile >> washer setup? >> >> Chuck Jensen >> >> Diversified Technologies >> >> 2680 Westcott Blvd >> >> Knoxville, TN 37931 >> >> Phn: 865-539-9000 x25 >> >> Cell: 865-406-9001 >> >> Fax: 865-539-9001 >> >> cjensen at dts9000.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Laurence Coen >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:07 AM >> *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >> *Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >> >> Al, >> >> The manual tells us to set the force to move the nose wheel at 12 to 15 >> lbs. Mine is set to 14 lbs. The basic problem comes from the fact that >> there are two types of friction involved. The first is static friction >> which is what we measure during adjustment. When the fork moves we have >> sliding friction which is less than the static friction. With lack of >> lubrication, rust and/or dirt the difference between the two becomes much >> greater. As a result the static or break out force is excessively high >> when you have enough sliding friction to prevent shimmy. This gives a >> plane that is hard to steer with marginal shimmy control. The idea of >> the nylon washer is to keep the value of the static and sliding friction >> as close together as possible. Think of a rusty hinge that creaks. What >> makes the noise is the static friction is so high the hinge starts to >> flex before it moves. When it does move the sliding friction is low >> enough to allow it to spring back to its original shape. the rapid >> repetition of this process makes the creaking sound. Lubrication is >> curative. >> >> My previous description was inaccurate. When I replaced my original >> fork with the new thicker one I rearranged the washers. The current set >> up is two Belleville washers with the cupped surfaces together above the >> fork and the nylon washer, flat steel washer and nut below. A word about >> materials. Phenolic is not self lubricating and absorbs water. Teflon >> is self lubricating but suffers from cold flow which would require >> constant adjustment. >> >> Larry Coen >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* Al Gietzen >> >> *To:* 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' >> >> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:13 PM >> >> *Subject:* RE: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >> >> Let me describe my "Oreo" friction damper. I have two bevel washers >> (the >> >> cracker part) with a nylon washer making up the creamy filling. I >> made the >> >> nylon washer from 1/8" flat stock using a couple of hole saws. The >> science >> >> behind the idea is that nylon is self lubricating so there is no >> grease to >> >> squeeze out or attract dirt. My experience to date with ground >> handling has >> >> gone slicker than snot on a brass doorknob. >> >> Larry Coen >> >> N136LC >> >> I think there is something missing here. The ?drag? that makes it >> hard to steer IS the damping force that keeps it from shimmying. If >> the wheel pivots easily, where does the damping force come from? >> >> Al >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From lwcoen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 27 09:34:10 2006 From: lwcoen at hotmail.com (Laurence Coen) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:34:10 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 References: <002101c699ec$6c1adff0$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> Message-ID: I'm the Nylon washer guy. It replaces the fiber washer, not the Bellville washers. Initially it works great. Easy to steer on the ground and no shimmy so far. It will take time and a lot more landings to find out if this is a great idea or another flop. Larry Coen N136LC SE/RG Franklin/IVO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:20 AM Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > Sid, > > Could you resend your picture? For some reason I didn't receive the > email. > > Thanks for doing the research. > > One of the builders had made a Nylon washer to replace the belville > arrangement. I would like to see a picture of the Nylon solution. > > Sid, I like your style. Asking this group to come up with possible modes > of > failure is like asking who wants free pie and chips. :) > > I haven't seen the picture yet... > > -- You have a hard landing, maybe a few over time and it separates and > goes > through the prop > > From Rich Guerra's videos you can watch the nose gear touch down. > When it comes down "plop" it appears it would shake the dampener rather > violently. > > -- It bends the fork over time > > -- It gets caught in the door upon retraction or extension > > -- It costs more, weights more and adds complexity > > -- Possible balance issue combined with a looser nut lets it flip around > 180 > -- gear is backwards when you try to retract or extend ... Possibly on > touch > down > > -- Attach point creates a stress riser in the main gear fork. Over time > the > fork cracks > > Truth can be stranger than fiction. > > We will never know what the problems are if it isn't tried and the real > information gathered. Thanks again for giving it your time and letting us > know what you find. > > On a related note: > > I had spoken with my brother, also a pilot as well as president of a > machining company. Alex had mentioned a type of hydraulic dampener that > could be a solution. My brother agreed this could be a solution and > pointed > me to a few websites to see "like" examples. > > He immediately had concerns about the cost, size, weight and durability > over > time. His opinion was we could try it, but it would be expensive and had > a > high probability of being a less than perfect solution. Not to mention > you > will be testing it on your $200K aircraft. > > This has been a longstanding issue for aircraft with castering nose > wheels. > Trying to find an elegant solution must not be easy. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From michalk at awpi.com Tue Jun 27 09:34:17 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:34:17 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nose Wheel Pivot In-Reply-To: <008301c699f2$46293980$6500a8c0@hppav> References: <000501c67a31$5622df70$6400a8c0@BigAl> <446C93C3.8010006@awpi.com> <008301c699f2$46293980$6500a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <44A141DF.4010205@awpi.com> It's vaporware at the moment. I have drawn up some crude plans which involve a sun gear to increase the angular distance that a cylinder would need to travel. I think that damping should be designed in from the start, because steering control won't be enough to arrest the problem, and it most likely would rip itself off the airplane before the pilot could react. It would really be nice to have something that castors 360 degrees, but that's going to be difficult. At this time, the steering assembly is on back burner. I'm feverishly working to get my plane in the air, because I can't stand the thought of Kurt beating me there. Hal Smith wrote: > How did you do the hydraulic steering? I am not interested in rotational > damping only the steering since I am considering a new nose wheel design and > would like to use an existing steering system if possible. > > Thanks > > Hal > h.smith61 at verizon.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:33 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nose Wheel Pivot > > > >>Hehe, >> >>I've got the plans for hydraulic steering, but rotational damping would be >>better suited to increase friction as rotational velocity increases. >> >>I think a rheopectic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheopecty >>solution would work best. The opposite of thixotropic >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy solution. >> >>Basically, the faster you try to turn it, the more torque is required. It >>seems like a fairly simple pancake damper could be built on this premise. >> >>There would need to be a lot of surface area, so the two halves of each >>pancake would need grooves. >> >>Al Gietzen wrote: >> >>>I have wondered if the 14# spec is break-away or in-motion force. Also, >>>with the 14# setting with no load on the wheel, what is the force when >>>the wheel is on the ground and you have a couple big bodies in the front >>>seats? Sounds like Larry has taken a step in the right direction. I?m >>>waiting for Brian to come up with the hydraulic rotational damperJ. >>> >>> Al >>> >>> *Subject:* RE: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >>> >>> That is exactly correct- the numbers for static vs sliding are closer >>>with the plastic - a well lubed washer assy is going in the right >>>direction, but it is difficult to maintain the correct pressure >>>relationship- dirt, grease hardens, slings out ect. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>*From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] >>>*On Behalf Of *Chuck Jensen >>>*Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:27 PM >>>*To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >>>*Subject:* RE: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >>> >>> Larry, >>> >>> Very good explanation of how static v. sliding friction affects our nose >>>wheel steering, but I?m still having difficulty seeing how the plastic >>>washer sharply changes the equation. Are you saying that the plastic >>>washer reduces the differential between static and sliding, hence the >>>static (aka breakout force) can be set lower without compromising the >>>necessary sliding friction which dampens the shimmy? >>> >>> If that?s the theory, its comprehensible why it would reduce the >>>breakout force necessary to still damp the shimmy, but is the >>>change/improvement actually noticeable from a well lubbed Bellevile >>>washer setup? >>> >>> Chuck Jensen >>> >>>Diversified Technologies >>> >>>2680 Westcott Blvd >>> >>>Knoxville, TN 37931 >>> >>>Phn: 865-539-9000 x25 >>> >>>Cell: 865-406-9001 >>> >>>Fax: 865-539-9001 >>> >>>cjensen at dts9000.com >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>*From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] >>>*On Behalf Of *Laurence Coen >>>*Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:07 AM >>>*To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >>>*Subject:* Re: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >>> >>> Al, >>> >>> The manual tells us to set the force to move the nose wheel at 12 to 15 >>>lbs. Mine is set to 14 lbs. The basic problem comes from the fact that >>>there are two types of friction involved. The first is static friction >>>which is what we measure during adjustment. When the fork moves we have >>>sliding friction which is less than the static friction. With lack of >>>lubrication, rust and/or dirt the difference between the two becomes much >>>greater. As a result the static or break out force is excessively high >>>when you have enough sliding friction to prevent shimmy. This gives a >>>plane that is hard to steer with marginal shimmy control. The idea of >>>the nylon washer is to keep the value of the static and sliding friction >>>as close together as possible. Think of a rusty hinge that creaks. What >>>makes the noise is the static friction is so high the hinge starts to >>>flex before it moves. When it does move the sliding friction is low >>>enough to allow it to spring back to its original shape. the rapid >>>repetition of this process makes the creaking sound. Lubrication is >>>curative. >>> >>> My previous description was inaccurate. When I replaced my original >>>fork with the new thicker one I rearranged the washers. The current set >>>up is two Belleville washers with the cupped surfaces together above the >>>fork and the nylon washer, flat steel washer and nut below. A word about >>>materials. Phenolic is not self lubricating and absorbs water. Teflon >>>is self lubricating but suffers from cold flow which would require >>>constant adjustment. >>> >>> Larry Coen >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> *From:* Al Gietzen >>> >>> *To:* 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' >>> >>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:13 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* RE: REFLECTOR: Runway Rash >>> >>> Let me describe my "Oreo" friction damper. I have two bevel washers >>> (the >>> >>> cracker part) with a nylon washer making up the creamy filling. I >>> made the >>> >>> nylon washer from 1/8" flat stock using a couple of hole saws. The >>> science >>> >>> behind the idea is that nylon is self lubricating so there is no >>> grease to >>> >>> squeeze out or attract dirt. My experience to date with ground >>> handling has >>> >>> gone slicker than snot on a brass doorknob. >>> >>> Larry Coen >>> >>> N136LC >>> >>> I think there is something missing here. The ?drag? that makes it >>> hard to steer IS the damping force that keeps it from shimmying. If >>> the wheel pivots easily, where does the damping force come from? >>> >>> Al >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>> Check old archives: >>>http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From ajlz72756 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 10:32:26 2006 From: ajlz72756 at yahoo.com (Andrew Ellzey) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:32:26 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 References: <002101c699ec$6c1adff0$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> Message-ID: <002a01c699fe$d39a8560$8302a8c0@DASINC> Larry, How old is your kit? My XLRG kit shipped Aug 05 has steel washers and not fiber washers. I think you have a good idea and I will probably try two thin Teflon washers under my steel washers next to the nose wheel fork. This would stack from the bottom up as "Nut, steel washer, Teflon washer, nose wheel fork, Teflon washer, steel washer, bellville washers 3ea.as plans indicate." Or only one Teflon washer on the lower (nut) end might work better. I'm not at the Taxi stage, so someone might come up with something better before then. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Coen" To: ; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:33 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > I'm the Nylon washer guy. It replaces the fiber washer, not the Bellville > washers. Initially it works great. Easy to steer on the ground and no > shimmy so far. It will take time and a lot more landings to find out if > this is a great idea or another flop. > > Larry Coen > N136LC > SE/RG Franklin/IVO > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Millin" > To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:20 AM > Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > > >> Sid, >> >> Could you resend your picture? For some reason I didn't receive the >> email. >> >> Thanks for doing the research. >> >> One of the builders had made a Nylon washer to replace the belville >> arrangement. I would like to see a picture of the Nylon solution. >> >> Sid, I like your style. Asking this group to come up with possible modes >> of >> failure is like asking who wants free pie and chips. :) >> >> I haven't seen the picture yet... >> >> -- You have a hard landing, maybe a few over time and it separates and >> goes >> through the prop >> >> From Rich Guerra's videos you can watch the nose gear touch down. >> When it comes down "plop" it appears it would shake the dampener rather >> violently. >> >> -- It bends the fork over time >> >> -- It gets caught in the door upon retraction or extension >> >> -- It costs more, weights more and adds complexity >> >> -- Possible balance issue combined with a looser nut lets it flip around >> 180 >> -- gear is backwards when you try to retract or extend ... Possibly on >> touch >> down >> >> -- Attach point creates a stress riser in the main gear fork. Over time >> the >> fork cracks >> >> Truth can be stranger than fiction. >> >> We will never know what the problems are if it isn't tried and the real >> information gathered. Thanks again for giving it your time and letting >> us >> know what you find. >> >> On a related note: >> >> I had spoken with my brother, also a pilot as well as president of a >> machining company. Alex had mentioned a type of hydraulic dampener that >> could be a solution. My brother agreed this could be a solution and >> pointed >> me to a few websites to see "like" examples. >> >> He immediately had concerns about the cost, size, weight and durability >> over >> time. His opinion was we could try it, but it would be expensive and had >> a >> high probability of being a less than perfect solution. Not to mention >> you >> will be testing it on your $200K aircraft. >> >> This has been a longstanding issue for aircraft with castering nose >> wheels. >> Trying to find an elegant solution must not be easy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From lwcoen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 27 13:49:47 2006 From: lwcoen at hotmail.com (Laurence Coen) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:49:47 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 References: <002101c699ec$6c1adff0$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> <002a01c699fe$d39a8560$8302a8c0@DASINC> Message-ID: Don't use Teflon! Teflon suffers from cold flow so when you torque the nut to get the proper friction the Teflon will flow thus relieving the tension. Nylon doesn't do that. My kit is of the Oh'95 vintage and did not come with a fiber washer, just Bellville washers. I think the fiber washer is used on standard aircraft and not on the XL. The fiber washers are made of Phenolic. Larry Coen N136LC (Phase #1) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Ellzey" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > Larry, > > How old is your kit? My XLRG kit shipped Aug 05 has steel washers and not > fiber washers. I think you have a good idea and I will probably try two > thin > Teflon washers under my steel washers next to the nose wheel fork. This > would stack from the bottom up as "Nut, steel washer, Teflon washer, nose > wheel fork, Teflon washer, steel washer, bellville washers 3ea.as plans > indicate." Or only one Teflon washer on the lower (nut) end might work > better. I'm not at the Taxi stage, so someone might come up with something > better before then. > > Andy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Laurence Coen" > To: ; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > > >> I'm the Nylon washer guy. It replaces the fiber washer, not the >> Bellville >> washers. Initially it works great. Easy to steer on the ground and no >> shimmy so far. It will take time and a lot more landings to find out if >> this is a great idea or another flop. >> >> Larry Coen >> N136LC >> SE/RG Franklin/IVO >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Andy Millin" >> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" >> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:20 AM >> Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 >> >> >>> Sid, >>> >>> Could you resend your picture? For some reason I didn't receive the >>> email. >>> >>> Thanks for doing the research. >>> >>> One of the builders had made a Nylon washer to replace the belville >>> arrangement. I would like to see a picture of the Nylon solution. >>> >>> Sid, I like your style. Asking this group to come up with possible >>> modes >>> of >>> failure is like asking who wants free pie and chips. :) >>> >>> I haven't seen the picture yet... >>> >>> -- You have a hard landing, maybe a few over time and it separates and >>> goes >>> through the prop >>> >>> From Rich Guerra's videos you can watch the nose gear touch down. >>> When it comes down "plop" it appears it would shake the dampener rather >>> violently. >>> >>> -- It bends the fork over time >>> >>> -- It gets caught in the door upon retraction or extension >>> >>> -- It costs more, weights more and adds complexity >>> >>> -- Possible balance issue combined with a looser nut lets it flip around >>> 180 >>> -- gear is backwards when you try to retract or extend ... Possibly on >>> touch >>> down >>> >>> -- Attach point creates a stress riser in the main gear fork. Over time >>> the >>> fork cracks >>> >>> Truth can be stranger than fiction. >>> >>> We will never know what the problems are if it isn't tried and the real >>> information gathered. Thanks again for giving it your time and letting >>> us >>> know what you find. >>> >>> On a related note: >>> >>> I had spoken with my brother, also a pilot as well as president of a >>> machining company. Alex had mentioned a type of hydraulic dampener that >>> could be a solution. My brother agreed this could be a solution and >>> pointed >>> me to a few websites to see "like" examples. >>> >>> He immediately had concerns about the cost, size, weight and durability >>> over >>> time. His opinion was we could try it, but it would be expensive and >>> had >>> a >>> high probability of being a less than perfect solution. Not to mention >>> you >>> will be testing it on your $200K aircraft. >>> >>> This has been a longstanding issue for aircraft with castering nose >>> wheels. >>> Trying to find an elegant solution must not be easy. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From michalk at awpi.com Tue Jun 27 14:19:46 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:19:46 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: maximum file attachment size? In-Reply-To: <01da01c69a09$6281ba50$24f9eb3f@texastornado> References: <000001c699a4$fd83aff0$6400a8c0@BigAl> <01da01c69a09$6281ba50$24f9eb3f@texastornado> Message-ID: <44A184C8.5080002@awpi.com> 250K. If it get's rejected, it will tell you what size is allowed. Sid Knox wrote: > Would someone please tell me the maximum size file attachment allowed on > the > REFLECTOR? I need to know how much to compress my (.jpg) photo files so as > not to offend the list owner. > Thanks, > > Sid Knox > Oklahoma > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Gietzen" > > To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:48 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > > > Sid; > > > > It could make the wheel turn sideways once retracted - if you don't have the > wheel guide. > > > > BTW; I don't think high speed taxi is a valid test. It seems that it is > when that wheel drops on at 75 KIAS that the problem most likely occurs. I > also have taxied at 65 KIAS with very low friction on the wheel and no > problem. > > > > But I agree. This issue has been hanging around, and causing inconvenience, > for too long. The only real solution I've seen is the retracting pin lock > idea that was posted awhile back; although it would be nice to have > something that doesn't require pilot action. > > > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org ] On > Behalf Of Sid Knox > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:09 PM > To: reflector at tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_1 > > > > Nose wheel shimmy. > One of the recurring irritations of an otherwise great airplane is the > nosewheel anti-shimmy scheme. Velocity forum readers may recall this subject > comes up periodically, stirs up a few people, and then dies with the > generally lame advise to keep the Belview washers clean and tightened to > some seemingly arbitrary value and stop whining. > > To get into my hanger I must make a sharp 120 degree right followed > immediately by a left 90. Sometimes I make it and sometimes I end up out in > the weeds. > > After the last time, I finally decided I was pissed enough to try and do > something about it (no, not get another hanger). > > I recalled in a previous go-around of this subject, someone had posted a > link to an Air Force site (?) telling how the problem was solved on the > F-15. Unfortunately, the article was 100% PR on what a wonderful group > Managemant > put together and 0 % on how they did it. But there was a photo that showed > something hung on the nosewheel fork. I discussed the Velocity problem and > the F-15 problem fix with local owner/operators and it was generally agreed > that probably there was a mass, either solid or liquid (mercury?) inside. > Well, the mass idea would be easy to try so I melted some lead and cast a > rectangular weight. It ended up weighing about 25 oz. No "design" involved, > just a "nice" size. I mounted it pointing forward as seen in the photo. > Mounting was crude as this was to be a feasibility experiment. if it worked, > I could build it better. If it didn't, then no big time lost. > > With the big nut backed-off to near zero drag, I made two high-speed taxi > tests. Two was all I could do together because of danger of overheating > brakes. (Figure it out. well over 100 KW for several seconds time dumped > into the tiny brakes. we're talking some serious heat here!). > > No shimmy observed. I was feeling pretty smart until my teenage son > pointed-out one potentially serious flaw in the scheme. As I was digesting > that one, I thought of another probably catastrophic flaw. > > This message is getting rather long so I will continue the tale in a > follow-up. Anyone want to guess what are the two flaws? (clearance up in the > nose when retracted was not one of them... there is a bunch of space up > there). > > Sid Knox > Oklahoma > Velocity N199RS > W7QJQ > > > > > > > > > has notified the sender that this > message has been received. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > > has notified the sender that this > message has been received. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From michalk at awpi.com Tue Jun 27 14:21:37 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:21:37 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> References: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> Message-ID: <44A18535.6000200@awpi.com> I've been looking for a rotary damper. They exist, but I haven't found anything sufficiently pancake sized to fit our bill. I think building it is a simple matter. Finding the correct goo for it is a little more difficult. Jerry Teitsma wrote: > What would be great is a ring type dampener similar to the torque > converter on an automatic transmission. This could replace the entire > Bellville washer assembly, especially if it could take compressive > forces. Is there such an animal? > > Jerry Teitsma, RRC, RRO, CCCA > RCI, Inc > PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446 (USPS mail/shipping) > 36 Lodgepole Ct, Granby CO 80446 (UPS/FedEx shipping) > 970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax) > jerryteits at comcast.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From ajlz72756 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 14:38:57 2006 From: ajlz72756 at yahoo.com (Andrew Ellzey) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:38:57 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy References: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> <44A18535.6000200@awpi.com> Message-ID: <007c01c69a21$4fb3f5b0$8302a8c0@DASINC> STP oil additive would probably fit the bill. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "michalk" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:21 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy > I've been looking for a rotary damper. They exist, but I haven't found > anything sufficiently pancake sized to fit our bill. > > I think building it is a simple matter. Finding the correct goo for it > is a little more difficult. > > Jerry Teitsma wrote: >> What would be great is a ring type dampener similar to the torque >> converter on an automatic transmission. This could replace the entire >> Bellville washer assembly, especially if it could take compressive >> forces. Is there such an animal? >> >> Jerry Teitsma, RRC, RRO, CCCA >> RCI, Inc >> PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446 (USPS mail/shipping) >> 36 Lodgepole Ct, Granby CO 80446 (UPS/FedEx shipping) >> 970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax) >> jerryteits at comcast.net >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From xl340hp at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 15:11:15 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:11:15 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: flight training In-Reply-To: <000001c69a00$3919d6b0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <20060627201105.86965.qmail@web51910.mail.yahoo.com> Al, The factory trainer is a SE FG. It has a dummy RG gear switch panel installed for RG training. This is the aircraft used for training regardless of the model you have or are meeting the insurance requirements for. Therefore, I can't see you having any issues receiving training in an XL RG. Pat --- Al Gietzen wrote: > Is anyone doing dual training in a Velocity SE RG > that might be closer to > the West coast than the factory? > > > > Would an XL RG be considered same make and model as > SE RG? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Al (I think I have an insurance quote I can live > with) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From michalk at awpi.com Tue Jun 27 16:42:44 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:42:44 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: <007c01c69a21$4fb3f5b0$8302a8c0@DASINC> References: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> <44A18535.6000200@awpi.com> <007c01c69a21$4fb3f5b0$8302a8c0@DASINC> Message-ID: <44A1A649.40201@awpi.com> I am looking for a dilatant, or rheopectic fluid. These fluids exhibit an increasing viscosity when placed under shear stress. dilatant - increase in viscosity with shear rate rheopectic - increase in viscosity with time in shear. Andrew Ellzey wrote: > STP oil additive would probably fit the bill. > > Andy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:21 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy > > > >>I've been looking for a rotary damper. They exist, but I haven't found >>anything sufficiently pancake sized to fit our bill. >> >>I think building it is a simple matter. Finding the correct goo for it >>is a little more difficult. >> >>Jerry Teitsma wrote: >> >>>What would be great is a ring type dampener similar to the torque >>>converter on an automatic transmission. This could replace the entire >>>Bellville washer assembly, especially if it could take compressive >>>forces. Is there such an animal? >>> >>>Jerry Teitsma, RRC, RRO, CCCA >>>RCI, Inc >>>PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446 (USPS mail/shipping) >>>36 Lodgepole Ct, Granby CO 80446 (UPS/FedEx shipping) >>>970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax) >>>jerryteits at comcast.net >>> >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From ajlz72756 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 27 20:32:10 2006 From: ajlz72756 at yahoo.com (Andrew Ellzey) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 01:32:10 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy References: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> <44A18535.6000200@awpi.com><007c01c69a21$4fb3f5b0$8302a8c0@DASINC> <44A1A649.40201@awpi.com> Message-ID: <00ab01c69a52$a57fcdd0$8302a8c0@DASINC> From scott at tnstaafl.net Tue Jun 27 20:50:49 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 01:50:49 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Soda Blaster Result In-Reply-To: <00ab01c69a52$a57fcdd0$8302a8c0@DASINC> References: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> <44A18535.6000200@awpi.com><007c01c69a21$4fb3f5b0$8302a8c0@DASINC> <44A1A649.40201@awpi.com> <00ab01c69a52$a57fcdd0$8302a8c0@DASINC> Message-ID: <44A1E059.60208@tnstaafl.net> As you all know I was trying to find out info on using a soda blaster to remove old paint in an attempt to reduce the amount of work in sanding all the old paint off the bottom of my V's fuselage and strakes. I went over to try out the soda blaster. I took over my lower cowl which will be seeing a major refit so blasting it is of no consequence. I'd have to say it worked and it didn't work. The problem is controlling how much is removed. When removing a 10 inch wide swath I could go for 3 or 4 inches and just remove the top coat fairly nicely, and then poof, it would dig out a divot down to the glass! Then it would act like digging divots was all it wanted to do! No control I decided I would have as much extra work filling divots as I would save by using the soda blaster, and the cost for rental and media was not cheap. So, back to sanding on my back. Scott -- - Truth : the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death. Richard Childers From alex157 at pwhome.com Tue Jun 27 21:57:34 2006 From: alex157 at pwhome.com (Alex Balic) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 02:57:34 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: <00ab01c69a52$a57fcdd0$8302a8c0@DASINC> Message-ID: <012d01c69a5e$99143700$6501a8c0@ALEX> Someone should try the butyl sealant- there is also a silicone fluid- basically like RTV but it does not cure that could be tried, but butyl is cheap and plentiful and I would guess that it has just about the correct viscosity. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Ellzey Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:32 PM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy From scott at tnstaafl.net Wed Jun 28 19:19:45 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:19:45 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Alodine and finshed parts In-Reply-To: <003701c69acf$f2838090$6501a8c0@ALEX> References: <003701c69acf$f2838090$6501a8c0@ALEX> Message-ID: <44A31C77.3080405@tnstaafl.net> While sanding my ailerons I noticed a couple small dabs of corrosion on a couple of the hinges. Then I noticed one hinge was alodined and two were not on each aileron? I want to alodine the two hinges that weren't alodined before repainting but am concerned about the prep wash and the epoxy and or the foam in the aileron. Anybody know if there is a reaction? Scott -- - Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw, Liberty From velocity at davebiz.com Wed Jun 28 21:35:10 2006 From: velocity at davebiz.com (Dave Philipsen) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:35:10 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: <000501c69b0c$905b6760$6400a8c0@BigAl> References: <000501c69b0c$905b6760$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <44A33C3F.4070705@davebiz.com> Here is another idea (perhaps it's a little outrageous). How about putting a gyro on the landing gear? Wouldn't that effectively resist any forces causing shimmy? I don't know. It may not be very practical as far as size goes. Al Gietzen wrote: > > Has anyone tried a flatter profile tire such as the Goodyear? The > Condors are quite round. The greater rubber in contact with the ground > might help keep the tire aligned with the onrushing pavement. Only had > one shimmy but keep my Bellvilles very tight. > > Just a thought.. > > Rene? > > Rene? > > The SE comes with a squared profile tire. Some years ago another > Velocity driver told me that he solved the shimmy problem by changing > to a rounded profile tire. Apparently it can happen with either. > > Al > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- Dave Philipsen STDFG N171SP soon-to-be N83DP From doug.holub at comcast.net Wed Jun 28 21:49:19 2006 From: doug.holub at comcast.net (Douglas Holub) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:49:19 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy References: <000501c69b0c$905b6760$6400a8c0@BigAl> <44A33C3F.4070705@davebiz.com> Message-ID: <010301c69b26$955cd770$6501a8c0@Workshop> I don't know how practical it is either, but you definitely get points for creative thinking. Doug Holub ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Philipsen" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy Here is another idea (perhaps it's a little outrageous). How about putting a gyro on the landing gear? Wouldn't that effectively resist any forces causing shimmy? I don't know. It may not be very practical as far as size goes. Al Gietzen wrote: > > Has anyone tried a flatter profile tire such as the Goodyear? The > Condors are quite round. The greater rubber in contact with the ground > might help keep the tire aligned with the onrushing pavement. Only had > one shimmy but keep my Bellvilles very tight. > > Just a thought.. > > Rene? > > Rene? > > The SE comes with a squared profile tire. Some years ago another > Velocity driver told me that he solved the shimmy problem by changing > to a rounded profile tire. Apparently it can happen with either. > > Al > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- Dave Philipsen STDFG N171SP soon-to-be N83DP _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From humeno at microsoft.com Wed Jun 28 22:21:45 2006 From: humeno at microsoft.com (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:21:45 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: <010301c69b26$955cd770$6501a8c0@Workshop> Message-ID: The thing about the gyro idea, though, the shimmy only happens when the wheel is spinning, right? Why wouldn't the wheel itself act as a gyro and self-dampen the inclination to caster? Something I am not clear on, as someone who hasn't taxied his plane... The Belleville Washer somewhat works as long as you keep it torqued to factory specifications, right? Once it is torqued to spec, how often does it need to be re-torqued? I have a fixed gear with wheel pants. In order to re-torque or check the washers, the pants needs to come off. Clearly, this is not an item for every pre-flight. Clearly, it will be a part of my annual condition inspection. But that seems pretty infrequent if this is something that loosens up readily. So, how often do y'all check and torque these little thingmabobs? Hiroo -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Holub Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:49 PM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy I don't know how practical it is either, but you definitely get points for creative thinking. Doug Holub ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Philipsen" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy Here is another idea (perhaps it's a little outrageous). How about putting a gyro on the landing gear? Wouldn't that effectively resist any forces causing shimmy? I don't know. It may not be very practical as far as size goes. Al Gietzen wrote: > > Has anyone tried a flatter profile tire such as the Goodyear? The > Condors are quite round. The greater rubber in contact with the ground > might help keep the tire aligned with the onrushing pavement. Only had > one shimmy but keep my Bellvilles very tight. > > Just a thought.. > > Rene' > > Rene' > > The SE comes with a squared profile tire. Some years ago another > Velocity driver told me that he solved the shimmy problem by changing > to a rounded profile tire. Apparently it can happen with either. > > Al > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- Dave Philipsen STDFG N171SP soon-to-be N83DP _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From michalk at awpi.com Wed Jun 28 22:24:01 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:24:01 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: <00ab01c69a52$a57fcdd0$8302a8c0@DASINC> References: <001101c69a0e$02780ec0$6700a8c0@JerryT> <44A18535.6000200@awpi.com><007c01c69a21$4fb3f5b0$8302a8c0@DASINC> <44A1A649.40201@awpi.com> <00ab01c69a52$a57fcdd0$8302a8c0@DASINC> Message-ID: <44A366B0.50105@awpi.com> I assume you mean STP oil, not sodium tripolyphosphate (STP). I will check it out. I also have been reading some interesting papers on magnetorheological liquids. In one of the papers, the author gives a laundry list of all of the common base oils, and additives that can be used for shear thickening or shear thinning properties. I might have to play around with these. I know they can be bought off the shelf, but I am not having any luck with finding lubricants that are specifically labeled with their rheological properties. I have a suspicion that these are highly guarded trade secrets, and the volume of material is so low, it's easy enough to make yourself. Andrew Ellzey wrote: >>From what I have read STP should be classified as a dilatant fluid. Its > viscosity and resistance to friction and heat should work well with a > properly designed rotary damper. STP doesn't release what its actual > viscosity is. As you know it is designed for a oil additive to fight metal > to metal contact and to reduce viscosity break down as heat increases. I'm > sure there is a study somewhere that would give the fluid that you are > looking for, I looked briefly and didn't find your answer. > > Andy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michalk" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy > > > >>I am looking for a dilatant, or rheopectic fluid. These fluids exhibit >>an increasing viscosity when placed under shear stress. >> >>dilatant - increase in viscosity with shear rate >>rheopectic - increase in viscosity with time in shear. >> >>Andrew Ellzey wrote: >> >>>STP oil additive would probably fit the bill. >>> >>>Andy >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "michalk" >>>To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >>>Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:21 PM >>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I've been looking for a rotary damper. They exist, but I haven't found >>>>anything sufficiently pancake sized to fit our bill. >>>> >>>>I think building it is a simple matter. Finding the correct goo for it >>>>is a little more difficult. >>>> >>>>Jerry Teitsma wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>What would be great is a ring type dampener similar to the torque >>>>>converter on an automatic transmission. This could replace the entire >>>>>Bellville washer assembly, especially if it could take compressive >>>>>forces. Is there such an animal? >>>>> >>>>>Jerry Teitsma, RRC, RRO, CCCA >>>>>RCI, Inc >>>>>PO Box 796, Granby CO 80446 (USPS mail/shipping) >>>>>36 Lodgepole Ct, Granby CO 80446 (UPS/FedEx shipping) >>>>>970-887-3910 (Phone/Fax) >>>>>jerryteits at comcast.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>>> >>>>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>To change your email address, visit >>>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>> >>>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From velocity at davebiz.com Wed Jun 28 22:54:14 2006 From: velocity at davebiz.com (Dave Philipsen) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:54:14 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44A34EC8.5080908@davebiz.com> Hmmm, A couple of ideas on that. My first guess would be that the wheel isn't spinning fast enough to be an effective gyro and my second guess is that the gyro would be more effective if the axis were at a right angle to the axle. Just an uneducated guess though. I am a new owner and I have not yet experienced any shimmy in the nosewheel. But, I believe my washer must be pretty snug. One thing I have done is this: while pulling the plane back into my hangar, sometimes I need to get the nosewheel turned a bit. So, I pick up the nose of the plane (only weighs maybe 20 pounds or so) and move the nose in the direction I want it to go. Then I drop the wheel back to the ground as the nose is swinging around and the tire kind of scuffs the asphalt and forces the caster around a bit. By doing this, I believe I can get a good 'feel' for how tight the contraption should be and I'll know if it starts to get loose. Hiroo Umeno wrote: > The thing about the gyro idea, though, the shimmy only happens when the > wheel is spinning, right? Why wouldn't the wheel itself act as a gyro > and self-dampen the inclination to caster? > > Something I am not clear on, as someone who hasn't taxied his plane... > > The Belleville Washer somewhat works as long as you keep it torqued to > factory specifications, right? Once it is torqued to spec, how often > does it need to be re-torqued? I have a fixed gear with wheel pants. > In order to re-torque or check the washers, the pants needs to come off. > Clearly, this is not an item for every pre-flight. Clearly, it will be > a part of my annual condition inspection. But that seems pretty > infrequent if this is something that loosens up readily. > > So, how often do y'all check and torque these little thingmabobs? > > Hiroo > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Douglas Holub > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:49 PM > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy > > I don't know how practical it is either, but you definitely get points > for creative thinking. > > Doug Holub > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Philipsen" > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:34 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy > > > Here is another idea (perhaps it's a little outrageous). How about > putting a gyro on the landing gear? Wouldn't that effectively resist any > forces causing shimmy? I don't know. It may not be very practical as far > as size goes. > > > Al Gietzen wrote: > >> Has anyone tried a flatter profile tire such as the Goodyear? The >> Condors are quite round. The greater rubber in contact with the ground >> might help keep the tire aligned with the onrushing pavement. Only had >> one shimmy but keep my Bellvilles very tight. >> >> Just a thought.. >> >> Rene' >> >> Rene' >> >> The SE comes with a squared profile tire. Some years ago another >> Velocity driver told me that he solved the shimmy problem by changing >> to a rounded profile tire. Apparently it can happen with either. >> >> Al >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> Check old archives: >> > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > -- Dave Philipsen STDFG N171SP soon-to-be N83DP From c.harbert at comcast.net Wed Jun 28 23:39:29 2006 From: c.harbert at comcast.net (Chuck Harbert) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:39:29 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Shimmy Damper References: Message-ID: <17f101c69b37$094744d0$b26eaa43@9B6B411> Sid, nice job. I think you've solved the shimmy problem with the least expensive alternative using a proven a/c part. Thanks. Chuck H > > Shimmy damper_3 > > One of the local knowledgeable mechanics reminded me that Cessna for years > had a hydraulic shimmy damper on their nosegear. I examined and took > photos > of an older 150 and 172 to see how they did it. The same guy gave me a > discarded damper that someone had tried to get apart and essentially > ruined > (by FAA standards). I took it apart, honed the bore, filed off the rough > edges on the piston, put in new o-rings and snap rings, and filled it with > automatic transmission fluid (ATF). Total cost less than $2. > > I made up the mounting hardware initially from cereal box cardboard to get > a > general idea of fit and then from thin Al (quick and easy to modify) only > strong enough so that I could check geometry. Finally, I made up what you > see in the photos from 1/8 inch mild steel ( I do not have any chrome-moly > plate). > > I took (angular) drag data for both the original Belview setup and for the > Cessna damper. It became immediately apparent that the ATF was too thin > so I replaced it with Shell 100 (50 wt) aircraft oil. This stiffened it > up > considerably and that what I am currently using. > > It was during the initial fit-up process that I discovered that the fork > had > been bent bad. I noticed it when I was pulling (by hand (dump-valve > open)) > the whole gear up into the nose of the plane to check for fit. One side > of > the wheel lightly dragged on one of the two alignment "posts" (I don't > know > the official name for these). I considered trying to straighten it but I > don't have a large enough press to do that sort of work so I ordered a new > fork assy. It has since arrived but I am still experimenting with the > original as it works. just looks a little strange. The new fork is > considerably stronger than my old original. > > Ok, time for taxi testing. Big nut backed-off as before. Two high-speed > runs (fast enough to fly the canard and let it plop) and no shimmy. Time > to > go around the pattern. Take-off, no shimmy. Retracted the gear. lights > out. Extend the gear. both lights ok. Landed and let it roll for awhile > and still no shimmy. Taxied back, easily made both sharp turns into the > hanger. > This may be a keeper. > > More photos to follow... I am pushing the bandwidth limit now. > > Sid Knox > Oklahoma > Velocity N199RS > W7QJQ > From xl340hp at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 00:45:01 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:45:01 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... Message-ID: <20060629054448.65653.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> I had 140 hrs on my XLRG without a hint of shimmy - until last weekend. I was landing at an airport with a relatively high density alt (6,500'), my mind was in the Bahama's, and I just botched the landing. I hit hard and the nose wheel bounced. I set the nose down real nice and easy the second time but it started to shimmy. Since a truly botched landing must also have a drift component, I suspect mine did and that caused my nose wheel was cocked off a little after the first hit. I immediately raised the nose and tried lowering it again - more shimmy. I pull the nose off again, adding power by now to go around, but the nose fell as the canard stopped flying - more shimmy. While accelerating at full power with aft stick, the shimmy stopped. Whew! Full stop. Each of the three shimmy events lasted about 2 seconds. Up until this point, my landings have all been average or better, and The Big Nut on my nose wheel is always tight (over 15lbs of break out force). Post-mortem: There are significant rubber marks on the inside walls of my nose gear fork where the tire was rubbing during the shimmy (I have about 30 psi in my nose tire). There's a hairline crack around one of my knurled bushings. With the nose lifted into the air, I can grab the nose wheel and wiggle it side to side at least 1/4" (free play). The play is coming from the nose gear pivot bolt and the sleeve (on the strut) the bolt goes through. The tire, wheel, keel, and captivator are fine. I've ordered a new strut, pivot bolt, newer style bushings, and newer style bellville washers. In the aviation world, $300 is a small amount to pay for a botched anything. If this was a production plane, you'd have to add another zero to that number... Oh, and I ordered Ken's nose wheel locking system too. FWIW, Pat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From michalk at awpi.com Thu Jun 29 09:29:44 2006 From: michalk at awpi.com (michalk) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:29:44 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Shimmy Damper 3.3 In-Reply-To: <035201c69b3c$2e16b160$adf9eb3f@texastornado> References: <17f101c69b37$094744d0$b26eaa43@9B6B411> <035201c69b3c$2e16b160$adf9eb3f@texastornado> Message-ID: <44A3E3CB.20803@awpi.com> Sid, In my reading of rheological oils, and also what I've gleaned from the LORD web site ... the company that probably made your damper, I found that the original oil was most likely a rheopectic oil. This is an oil that gets more viscous with time in shear. I think dilatant would work as well. They have oils that are supposed to act in shear, like between two plates. They have oils that are supposed to be forced through an orifice like in the LORD damper. Andrew mentioned STP was supposed to be dilatant. What happens if you try that one? If you really want to experiment, try adding cornstarch to your oil. That should make it dilatant. There are all sorts of powders that make dilatant mixes. Maybe start with your first oil you tried. Add cornstarch until it thickens up to an acceptable level. The faster you try to actuate the damper, the (non-linearly) more force should be required. Sid Knox wrote: > Notes on the "Drag data" graph... > 1) Notice the stiction at the beginning of movement. For the original > Belview setup, once broken loose, the friction does not change much as a > function of turning rate. The graph is somewhat "idialized" in that for my > nosewheel the drag was not this smooth (steady) going from say 45 degrees > one side, thru zero (straight ahead), to 45 degrees the other way. Probably > because of the dirt in the washers (I purposely did not sanitize the > washers > before making measurements as I wanted them to reflect as close as possible > to the "real world" conditions). > > 2) As expected, the hydraulic damper gave a "rate-based" drag. Or casting > the situation into an electrical context, the damper lowered the ac gain > but > left the dc gain high (low angular rate, for easy turning) whereas the > original Belview setup simply "brute force" lowered the both the ac and dc > gains. The lower ac gain inhibited the shimmy but the accompanying lowered > dc gain meant that the pilot had to forceably "power" the wheel around > (using lots of engine power/thrust and agressive braking) to initiate a > sharp turn (overcome the stiction/friction) at slow taxi speeds. > > 3) And also as expected, thicker oil in the damper lowered the ac gain even > more with very little effect on dc gain. And cranking down on the big nut > lowered both gains (more stability/harder to turn), > > Sid Knox > > > has notified the sender that this > message has been received. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From scott at tnstaafl.net Thu Jun 29 09:35:56 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:35:56 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Nosewheel shimmy_3 In-Reply-To: <019b01c69b28$23ee3a50$adf9eb3f@texastornado> References: <000501c69b0c$905b6760$6400a8c0@BigAl> <019b01c69b28$23ee3a50$adf9eb3f@texastornado> Message-ID: <44A3E51E.7030402@tnstaafl.net> Sid how far can you rotate the nose wheel each way in degrees with a 172 shimmer damper attached? Cessna's have a mechanism to stop rotation so you aren't using the shimmer damper as a stop which I presume can cause premature failure of the damper. Must think about that. Scott Sid Knox wrote: > Shimmy damper_3 > > One of the local knowledgeable mechanics reminded me that Cessna for years > had a hydraulic shimmy damper on their nosegear. I examined and took > photos > of an older 150 and 172 to see how they did it. The same guy gave me a > discarded damper that someone had tried to get apart and essentially > ruined > (by FAA standards). I took it apart, honed the bore, filed off the rough > edges on the piston, put in new o-rings and snap rings, and filled it with > automatic transmission fluid (ATF). Total cost less than $2. > > I made up the mounting hardware initially from cereal box cardboard to > get a > general idea of fit and then from thin Al (quick and easy to modify) only > strong enough so that I could check geometry. Finally, I made up what you > see in the photos from 1/8 inch mild steel ( I do not have any chrome-moly > plate). > > I took (angular) drag data for both the original Belview setup and for the > Cessna damper. It became immediately apparent that the ATF was too thin > so I replaced it with Shell 100 (50 wt) aircraft oil. This stiffened it up > considerably and that what I am currently using. > > It was during the initial fit-up process that I discovered that the > fork had > been bent bad. I noticed it when I was pulling (by hand (dump-valve open)) > the whole gear up into the nose of the plane to check for fit. One side of > the wheel lightly dragged on one of the two alignment "posts" (I don't > know > the official name for these). I considered trying to straighten it but I > don't have a large enough press to do that sort of work so I ordered a new > fork assy. It has since arrived but I am still experimenting with the > original as it works. just looks a little strange. The new fork is > considerably stronger than my old original. > > Ok, time for taxi testing. Big nut backed-off as before. Two high-speed > runs (fast enough to fly the canard and let it plop) and no shimmy. > Time to > go around the pattern. Take-off, no shimmy. Retracted the gear. lights > out. Extend the gear. both lights ok. Landed and let it roll for awhile > and still no shimmy. Taxied back, easily made both sharp turns into the > hanger. > This may be a keeper. > > ************ note ********** > This is the fourth attempt to post this _3 message. The first had too > many > photos so I tried again with two photos (one 109 KB the other 113 KB) and > still reject. I tried a third time with the same two and another reject > (why would 222 KB be rejected??) so here it is again with just one photo. > I'll follow-up with a separate message with another photo and yet another > message with another photo, etc., until I get them all sent. And this is > susposed to conserve bandwidth?? > > Sid Knox > Oklahoma > Velocity N199RS > W7QJQ > > > > > has notified the sender that this > message has been received. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - Truth : the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death. Richard Childers From ajlz72756 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 12:34:00 2006 From: ajlz72756 at yahoo.com (Andrew Ellzey) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:34:00 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... References: <20060629054448.65653.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c69ba2$278a7370$8302a8c0@DASINC> Pat, Is the damage from the Shimmy, or is the wear of your bolt and the nose gear strut pivot because there isn't any grease fittings installed to keep this nose gear retract pivot point properly lubricated. I have already installed my gear system and was disturbed with the lack of provisions to lube the system for the nose and the mains. As with everyone else I was in to big a hurry to see some progress with my build, to take the time to drill and tap all of the bushings to install grease fittings. But If your bolt and bushings have worn in this short of time I will probably take the time to go back and add a way to grease my gear. My 1964 Mooney's gear had a grease fitting at every pivot point and it had 0 wear after 40 years of use when I removed everything for complete strip and paint job in 2004. The gear only had to be lubed on the annual inspection. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 12:44 AM Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... >I had 140 hrs on my XLRG without a hint of shimmy - > until last weekend. I was landing at an airport with a > relatively high density alt (6,500'), my mind was in > the Bahama's, and I just botched the landing. I hit > hard and the nose wheel bounced. I set the nose down > real nice and easy the second time but it started to > shimmy. Since a truly botched landing must also have a > drift component, I suspect mine did and that caused my > nose wheel was cocked off a little after the first > hit. I immediately raised the nose and tried lowering > it again - more shimmy. I pull the nose off again, > adding power by now to go around, but the nose fell as > the canard stopped flying - more shimmy. While > accelerating at full power with aft stick, the shimmy > stopped. Whew! Full stop. > > Each of the three shimmy events lasted about 2 > seconds. Up until this point, my landings have all > been average or better, and The Big Nut on my nose > wheel is always tight (over 15lbs of break out force). > > Post-mortem: There are significant rubber marks on the > inside walls of my nose gear fork where the tire was > rubbing during the shimmy (I have about 30 psi in my > nose tire). There's a hairline crack around one of my > knurled bushings. With the nose lifted into the air, I > can grab the nose wheel and wiggle it side to side at > least 1/4" (free play). The play is coming from the > nose gear pivot bolt and the sleeve (on the strut) the > bolt goes through. The tire, wheel, keel, and > captivator are fine. > > I've ordered a new strut, pivot bolt, newer style > bushings, and newer style bellville washers. In the > aviation world, $300 is a small amount to pay for a > botched anything. If this was a production plane, > you'd have to add another zero to that number... > > Oh, and I ordered Ken's nose wheel locking system too. > > FWIW, Pat > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From xl340hp at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 13:15:01 2006 From: xl340hp at yahoo.com (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:15:01 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... In-Reply-To: <000901c69ba2$278a7370$8302a8c0@DASINC> Message-ID: <20060629181445.24744.qmail@web51910.mail.yahoo.com> Andy, I didn't check the side-to-side free play of the nose wheel recently, so I can't say for sure it wasn't there before the shimmy event. However, my plane only has 140 hours on it. Using two landings per hour as an estimate, that's only around 300 cycles and about 300 ground miles. Seems like too much play to be the result of wear. I'm replacing the strut this weekend - I'll let you know what I find. Pat --- Andrew Ellzey wrote: > Pat, > > Is the damage from the Shimmy, or is the wear of > your bolt and the nose gear > strut pivot because there isn't any grease fittings > installed to keep this > nose gear retract pivot point properly lubricated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From drgolf369 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 13:29:13 2006 From: drgolf369 at yahoo.com (Dr. Golf) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:29:13 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... In-Reply-To: <20060629054448.65653.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060629182853.42622.qmail@web38707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The new style pivot setup solved my problem. Also I keep 50 psi in the nose tire. Joel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From djroyer at earthlink.net Thu Jun 29 16:30:22 2006 From: djroyer at earthlink.net (Donald Royer) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:30:22 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... Message-ID: <410-220066429213020411@earthlink.net> If it is set up properly, the nose gear strut should not rotate on the pivot bolt. Rather, the bolt should rotate with the strut, and the movement should be in the side bushings. There is an oilite bearing in the bushing where the rotation should take place. Don Royer > [Original Message] > From: Andrew Ellzey > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > Date: 6/29/2006 2:59:00 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... > > > > > > Thanks Pat, > > > > The nose gear pivot would be the easiest to add the grease fitting, and > > could be accessed easily from under and behind the nose gear. I am going > > to > > install one on mine as soon as I get time. See attached jpg for > > clarification. > > My thoughts your results may vary. > > > > Andy > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Pat Shea" > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" > > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:14 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... > > > > > >> Andy, > >> > >> I didn't check the side-to-side free play of the nose > >> wheel recently, so I can't say for sure it wasn't > >> there before the shimmy event. However, my plane only > >> has 140 hours on it. Using two landings per hour as an > >> estimate, that's only around 300 cycles and about 300 > >> ground miles. Seems like too much play to be the > >> result of wear. I'm replacing the strut this weekend - > >> I'll let you know what I find. > >> > >> Pat > >> > >> --- Andrew Ellzey wrote: > >> > >>> Pat, > >>> > >>> Is the damage from the Shimmy, or is the wear of > >>> your bolt and the nose gear > >>> strut pivot because there isn't any grease fittings > >>> installed to keep this > >>> nose gear retract pivot point properly lubricated. > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >> http://mail.yahoo.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To change your email address, visit > >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > >> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > > From drgolf369 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 16:56:47 2006 From: drgolf369 at yahoo.com (Dr. Golf) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:56:47 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... In-Reply-To: <410-220066429213020411@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060629215636.32088.qmail@web38701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do not forget that you must reverse the nose wheel 180 degrees to push the plane backwards. Joel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajlz72756 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 29 17:31:55 2006 From: ajlz72756 at yahoo.com (Andrew Ellzey) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:31:55 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... References: <410-220066429213020411@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00c601c69bcb$c511eaf0$8302a8c0@DASINC> Don, You have a valid point, but with a grease fitting at this location it would push some grease to the oilite bushings. This can't be a bad thing. As it stands now the only way to grease this assembly is to remove the long bolt add more grease and re-install. Much easier said than done. Again my thoughts. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Royer" To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:30 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... > If it is set up properly, the nose gear strut should not rotate on the > pivot bolt. Rather, the bolt should rotate with the strut, and the > movement > should be in the side bushings. There is an oilite bearing in the bushing > where the rotation should take place. > > Don Royer > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Andrew Ellzey >> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list >> Date: 6/29/2006 2:59:00 PM >> Subject: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... >> >> >> >> >> > Thanks Pat, >> > >> > The nose gear pivot would be the easiest to add the grease fitting, and >> > could be accessed easily from under and behind the nose gear. I am > going >> > to >> > install one on mine as soon as I get time. See attached jpg for >> > clarification. >> > My thoughts your results may vary. >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Pat Shea" >> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" >> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:14 PM >> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Another shimmy story... >> > >> > >> >> Andy, >> >> >> >> I didn't check the side-to-side free play of the nose >> >> wheel recently, so I can't say for sure it wasn't >> >> there before the shimmy event. However, my plane only >> >> has 140 hours on it. Using two landings per hour as an >> >> estimate, that's only around 300 cycles and about 300 >> >> ground miles. Seems like too much play to be the >> >> result of wear. I'm replacing the strut this weekend - >> >> I'll let you know what I find. >> >> >> >> Pat >> >> >> >> --- Andrew Ellzey wrote: >> >> >> >>> Pat, >> >>> >> >>> Is the damage from the Shimmy, or is the wear of >> >>> your bolt and the nose gear >> >>> strut pivot because there isn't any grease fittings >> >>> installed to keep this >> >>> nose gear retract pivot point properly lubricated. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> Do You Yahoo!? >> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> To change your email address, visit >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery >> >> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail >> >> Check old archives: >> >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html > From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 30 08:52:06 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:52:06 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Tow Bar for RG In-Reply-To: <000501c69be0$6ab51630$a42ea445@romott> References: <000501c69be0$6ab51630$a42ea445@romott> Message-ID: <44A52C33.8080706@tnstaafl.net> Here's a different approach for a tow bar. I use a battery powered tow bar that attaches to the fork, actually hangs off the attach points. This adds about 75 lbs to the nose and prevents the aircraft from tipping over when moved. I'm in a communal hanger and need this so if anybody moves my plane they understand "Do not remove" tow bar. Its impossible for the airplane to tip back with the tow bar attached. Its also easy to move it around with a powered tow bar. picture of attach points. Two 3/8 hex head bolts tapped into the upper beefy section of the fork. http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/fork_attachment.jpg tow bar connected to fork. You'll notice the nose wheel is reversed so the drive wheel of the tow bar can rest on the wheel. http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/tow1.jpg same as above from a bit further back. http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/rightside.jpg I've been using this method for about 450 flight hours, no problems. Scott Ron Brown wrote: > I use this tow bar that I made out of 3/4" plywood, cut to fit over > the top of the fork with a notch that allows it to past the nose strut. > > My latest version has the notch on the side (if you're not careful, > tow bar can slip up the fork, past the strut and you are amazed that > you are laying on your back side!!! - so now the notch is on the > side (8>)). The handle is a bent piece of 3/4" galvanized conduit > pipe. I use a bungee cord to hold it in place. > > The tow bar makes it much easier to maneuver the plane around in the > hangar. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw, Liberty From amillin at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 30 09:16:39 2006 From: amillin at sbcglobal.net (Andy Millin) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:16:39 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Tow Bar for RG In-Reply-To: <44A52C33.8080706@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002801c69c4f$7584e170$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> OK Scott. Tell me about the Cessna Takeoff Video in that directory. I gotta know... Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:51 AM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Tow Bar for RG Here's a different approach for a tow bar. I use a battery powered tow bar that attaches to the fork, actually hangs off the attach points. This adds about 75 lbs to the nose and prevents the aircraft from tipping over when moved. I'm in a communal hanger and need this so if anybody moves my plane they understand "Do not remove" tow bar. Its impossible for the airplane to tip back with the tow bar attached. Its also easy to move it around with a powered tow bar. picture of attach points. Two 3/8 hex head bolts tapped into the upper beefy section of the fork. http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/fork_attachment.jpg tow bar connected to fork. You'll notice the nose wheel is reversed so the drive wheel of the tow bar can rest on the wheel. http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/tow1.jpg same as above from a bit further back. http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/rightside.jpg I've been using this method for about 450 flight hours, no problems. Scott Ron Brown wrote: > I use this tow bar that I made out of 3/4" plywood, cut to fit over > the top of the fork with a notch that allows it to past the nose strut. > > My latest version has the notch on the side (if you're not careful, > tow bar can slip up the fork, past the strut and you are amazed that > you are laying on your back side!!! - so now the notch is on the > side (8>)). The handle is a bent piece of 3/4" galvanized conduit > pipe. I use a bungee cord to hold it in place. > > The tow bar makes it much easier to maneuver the plane around in the > hangar. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. George Bernard Shaw, Liberty _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 30 14:19:50 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:19:50 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Cessna Fubar In-Reply-To: <002801c69c4f$7584e170$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> References: <002801c69c4f$7584e170$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> Message-ID: <44A57916.3040605@tnstaafl.net> Ain't that something!? I'm glad to say thats not me.. Though I've done some stunts that were close! Story is this guy makes a dead stick landing on that street, can't remember why. He gets permission to use the street to take off, but some ambulance weeniee parks his ambulance right on the street after the guy gets in to the airplane to take off. Needless to say he doesn't move over far enough to get by the ambulance.. Scott Andy Millin wrote: > OK Scott. > > Tell me about the Cessna Takeoff Video in that directory. I gotta know... > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:51 AM > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Tow Bar for RG > > Here's a different approach for a tow bar. > > I use a battery powered tow bar that attaches to the fork, actually hangs > off the attach points. This adds about 75 lbs to the nose and prevents the > aircraft from tipping over when moved. I'm in a communal hanger and need > this so if anybody moves my plane they understand "Do not remove" tow bar. > Its impossible for the airplane to tip back with the tow bar attached. Its > also easy to move it around with a powered tow bar. > > picture of attach points. Two 3/8 hex head bolts tapped into the upper > beefy section of the fork. > > http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/fork_attachment.jpg > > tow bar connected to fork. You'll notice the nose wheel is reversed so the > drive wheel of the tow bar can rest on the wheel. > > http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/tow1.jpg > > same as above from a bit further back. > > http://www.tnstaafl.net/canards/rightside.jpg > > I've been using this method for about 450 flight hours, no problems. > > Scott > > > Ron Brown wrote: > >> I use this tow bar that I made out of 3/4" plywood, cut to fit over >> the top of the fork with a notch that allows it to past the nose strut. >> >> My latest version has the notch on the side (if you're not careful, >> tow bar can slip up the fork, past the strut and you are amazed that >> you are laying on your back side!!! - so now the notch is on the >> side (8>)). The handle is a bent piece of 3/4" galvanized conduit >> pipe. I use a bungee cord to hold it in place. >> >> The tow bar makes it much easier to maneuver the plane around in the >> hangar. >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose >> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail Check old archives: >> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html >> > > -- - I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it. Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276 From amillin at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 30 14:31:57 2006 From: amillin at sbcglobal.net (Andy Millin) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:31:57 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Cessna Fubar In-Reply-To: <44A57916.3040605@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <003901c69c7b$f6877220$6387a8c0@KAZOOSOFT.COM> From amillin at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 30 19:52:16 2006 From: amillin at sbcglobal.net (Andy Millin) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 00:52:16 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Question on Velocity Fuel In-Reply-To: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B31DA04B@lucky.dts.local> Message-ID: <001401c69ca8$82165be0$63f7e104@tyrone> Thanks Chuck, I was more concerned with fuel backing up in the vent system than with how much I could loose. So, say I topped off in the cool morning and let it sit on the ramp on a warm day; all day. It sound like I could get a little leaking. Thanks for the tip on the fuel caps. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:39 PM To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Question on Velocity Fuel Andy, ? In that short of time, it would have to be REALLY topped off tight, a warm/hot day, fuel from underground tank so it is cool and maybe a hot engine to transfer a little extra heat to the fuel. ?If you did lose any fuel, it would be a massively minor amount. ? In that same vein, there is a good way to test the integrity of your fuel caps. ?Top the tanks to the max, then set the plane on a tilted area of the ramp.? In the morning, check the area around the fuel cap on the low side.? Even small leaks that would not cause a fuel imbalance during fuel burn will be evidenced by blue ring-around-the-collar of the cap. ? Chuck Jensen ? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:13 PM To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list' Subject: REFLECTOR: Question on Velocity Fuel ? Collective, ? If you top off the tanks and then go get the hamburger, will the fuel expand enough to come out of the fuel vent line? ? Thanks, ? Andy From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 30 21:41:01 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 02:41:01 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Question on Velocity Fuel In-Reply-To: <000001c69ca3$0d5da100$63f7e104@tyrone> References: <000001c69ca3$0d5da100$63f7e104@tyrone> Message-ID: <44A5E090.8010608@tnstaafl.net> Its happened to me a couple times.. Scott Andy Millin wrote: > > Collective, > > > > If you top off the tanks and then go get the hamburger, will the fuel > expand enough to come out of the fuel vent line? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - The true barriers of our liberty in this country are our state governments... Thomas Jefferson From scott at tnstaafl.net Fri Jun 30 21:43:44 2006 From: scott at tnstaafl.net (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 02:43:44 -0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: Power OFF glide ratio In-Reply-To: <004801c69ca9$aeeab020$6601a8c0@Kevin> References: <004801c69ca9$aeeab020$6601a8c0@Kevin> Message-ID: <44A5E13A.6030607@tnstaafl.net> Isn't best glide around 120?? Or am I thinking of a different airplane? Scott Velocity_AZ wrote: > Power off - prop stopped (unfortunately) - 173 fixed gear - about 1925 > lbs at time of incident - ~90 kts - 1100' down on the VSI. > > Kevin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] > *On Behalf Of *Hiroo Umeno > *Sent:* Friday, June 30, 2006 5:44 PM > *To:* Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list > *Subject:* REFLECTOR: Power OFF glide ratio > > Has anyone tested power OFF glide ratio (NOTE: not the idle power but > with the prop stopped and hanging in the airstream)? > > My EFIS has the "glide to land area" depiction and as a part of the > initial programming of the unit, I need to supply the glide ratio with > the engine stopped. Does anyone have this number? > > Hiroo > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html -- - The true barriers of our liberty in this country are our state governments... Thomas Jefferson