REFLECTOR: Reflector Digest, Vol 27, Issue 97 - Retract Gear
Mark Riley
anriley at comcast.net
Mon Aug 21 21:59:31 CDT 2006
I have to admit, I'm one of those that "have". I was delivering my Std RG to
the buyer in Vero Beach when I did a full on gear up landing right in front
of him. I did a nice approach and was waiting for a gentle contact of the
main gear when it settled another 2 feet onto the runway. There wasn't so
much as a bump and I slid down the center line to a stop. I called the tower
and confessed my stupidity.
I say stupidity because I hadn't put in any sort of gear warning system. My
new XL will have at least 2.
Point number one- a gear warning system is an absolute necessity. I had
almost 100 hours on my plane and still missed it on my check list after
being told to change runways and bring it in fast and tight ahead of a
commuter.
Point two- I have the opposite conclusion about the design of the gear and
airframe that have been expressed by some others. I never had a hint of
mechanical trouble with my gear. It wasn't even damaged in my gear up. Scott
and Mark Machado replaced the prop and flew it back to Sebastian the next
day where it needed little more than a little filler and some paint on a
small spot on the belly and one winglet. (and of course a new MT prop)
I credit the extremely robust and sturdy airframe for keeping me safe
despite my mistake. It's the main reason I chose this aircraft - speed and
beauty that wouldn't bite me if I screwed up. As I said, I hope to finish my
new XL by next Spring and it will be a retractible again.
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of reflector-request at tvbf.org
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 8:32 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 27, Issue 97
Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Accident/Incident (Scott Derrick)
2. Re: AirVenture Cup Race Photo Gallery (Rich Guerra)
3. Re: Fixed vs RG (Dave Dent)
4. Re: Retract to Fixed gear (Dave Dent)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:39:18 -0600
From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident/Incident
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <44EA4426.30804 at tnstaafl.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
davedent at comcast.net wrote:
> First related to the gear system, I think the quality of the parts is
> so different you can't count on them fitting the same as the part you
> removed. So doing makes it a major task and usually a major
> modification to the structure. Once I get through
I disagree. I replaced my main gear legs and the blanks ready for
torsional wraps fit perfectly. I replaced the nose gear strut and fork
and they fit perfectly. The failure of these parts was because of pilot
error.
I bought my plane after a wreck. The owner/builder ran it off the
end of a short runway. Breaking the nose gear and one of the mains.
The story by all observers was he tried twice but was to high and hot
and went around. Third time was still to high and hot but tried to
force in on, bad decision.
It was poorly repaired, the main legs should have been replaced instead
of repaiered, the nose gear bushings were loosened and not refit, nose
gear guides broken and incorrectly reinstalled. I found these things
out later.
What followed was two gear events that was completely the fault of
inadequate repairs and a poor preflight on my part.. The mains failed
eventually of internal cracking, the nose gear got stuck up because of
not doing a KPC and the badly installed nose gear guides.
The replacement parts were fine.
Scott
--
-
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within
limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add "within
the limits of the law," because law is often but the tyrant's will, and
always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:33:00 -0500
From: Rich Guerra <rich at rguerra.com>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: AirVenture Cup Race Photo Gallery
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <1156203180.44ea42ace5326 at webmail.rguerra.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Phil,
seems to work ok now. Possibly your request timed out if my server was
busy?
(I also posted on the canard list so maybe that's why.) Try again and let
me
know. I hope nobody else had trouble! I want to encourage more folks to
participate. I'd love to have Velocity's be the most well represented
plane!
(Well, if you count RV's of various sizes, we would have to get over 20
VELO's!
:-) At least I'd like to see more of us than the SX-300's!!)
Let me know...
Rich
> Rich, I get 404'd when I click on the link.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Rich Guerra
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:29 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: [SPAM] REFLECTOR: AirVenture Cup Race Photo Gallery
>
>
>
> To ALL:
>
>
>
> It took me a while to get organized, but I FINALLY uploaded my photo
> collection covering the AirVenture Cup Race and Oshkosh 2006. I thank
Pat,
> Jack, Tim and others for their kind words about the race and RACE 24. You
> guys plus Scott Jones and Joe Schifferl really made this Race special!
> Having all those Velocity's in one place was a real hoot and I think
> demonstrated that our planes can make a pretty respectable showing. The
Race
> was a real showcase of fantastic planes and was a great time for all.
There
> are a LOT of photos which tell the story of not only the Race itself, but
> all of the fun we all had both before and after the event itself.
> Hopefully, the Race gallery conveys a little of what makes this event
> special.
>
>
>
> The Velocity factory couldn't make it due to mechanical difficulties with
> the factory demo but they have my thanks and those of the other racers for
> sponsoring the event. I hope that they will do so again next year and
maybe
> even fly in the Race! It would be a nice way to help put a lot of VELO's
on
> the front flight line for all to see!
>
>
>
> For those that couldn't make it this time, I hope that you will consider
it
> for next year. It's a GREAT way to get into OSH and a great deal of fun!
> Let's see if we can get more than 5 Velocity's in the next Race!
>
>
>
> Check out the AIRVENTURE CUP RACE section on my web site:
>
> http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/
>
>
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
>
> RIch Guerra
>
> Velocity XL RG N724X aka RACE 24
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:23:36 -0700
From: "Dave Dent" <davedent at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fixed vs RG
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <002f01c6c581$3e17d480$6401a8c0 at yourcn2ccrvzt0>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I found out the bolts were first grade five tractor bolts. Scott Baker
told me that in 1999 they changed them out to grade eight bolts. Don't know
what they have on the fixed gear, could check. Also found that in the plans,
they give the wrong thread size for the XL also they mix SE and XL terms in
the instructions. Some one needs to proof read the instructions better. I
found this through out all their plans.
Main thing in checking with the grade eight bolts is to check where they are
made. I found some maid in China as well in the states. It would be good
if some one could get some tested from different venders and let us all
know. That is for tensile and torsional strength. I'll check into this.
Seeing that I have some time before I will be flying again. I have some
skin repair to do. It's composite, we can fix it. Just take a little time
and $$$$$.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Al Gietzen
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Fixed vs RG
Dave wrote:
Also use the best bolts
you can buy in the mounting of the gear. At least grade eight bolts. For
those that haven't changed out the bolts, do it now. To me this should be
a
mandatory thing to do.
I'm not sure I understand what it is with the bolts. I have not heard
before that this was an issue. Is it just with the XL? What grade bolts
come with the kit? Or came with the kit 10 years ago? I wonder if grade 8 is
the right thing - grade 8 bolts have higher tensile strength, but are also
more brittle.
I certainly understand your feelings about the RG, Dave; after what you
have been through. I can only imagine the nightmare that has been.
Al
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:31:34 -0700
From: "Dave Dent" <davedent at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Retract to Fixed gear
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <003601c6c582$55015990$6401a8c0 at yourcn2ccrvzt0>
I can say a lot for retract gears. I've been flying them since 1970 and
never had problems like this. I even forgot the nose gear once on my Long
EZ after hitting a red tail hawk while lowering the gear, but it never had a
problem. I was the problem there. If my nose shimmied it wasn't hard to
lift it and make it stop. After we changed out the way the tension was
maintained I never had another shimmy again. It never concerned me again.
Just remember, there are those that have and those that have not yet. Gear
up that is.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Gietzen" <ALVentures at cox.net>
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Retract to Fixed gear
> Matt;
>
> Boy, I don't that I'd undo what has been done to go to fixed gear. The
> extra 12kts or so is worth some effort, and there are many Velocity RGs
> flying without problems. One of the most common gear problems is the nose
> wheel shimmy, and you have that with a fixed gear as well.
>
> Hey, someone has to speak up for the retract. I'm all for it - at least
> until I have the first gear up :).
>
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of matt
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 1:09 PM
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Retract to Fixed gear
>
> I have decided (probably) to remove my partially installed retract
> equipment
> and replace it with the fixed gear parts. Randy, the man I bought the kit
> from, did a beautiful job in installing all of the parts. I hate to undo
> it.
> But after much thinking on the subject, and bouncing it off of Scott
> Swing,
> I may take that route.
> I will need to retrofit all of the FG parts, saddels, captivator, etc, but
> I
> believe it will be worth it. The top and bottom are not bonded yet, so
> this
> should be "easy" HAHAHAHA right.......
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
> Behalf Of reflector-request at tvbf.org
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 12:12 PM
> To: reflector at tvbf.org
> Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 27, Issue 94
>
>
> Send Reflector mailing list submissions to
> reflector at tvbf.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> reflector-request at tvbf.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> reflector-owner at tvbf.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Reflector digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Auto Conversions (velocityxlfg)
> 2. Re: Accident/Incident (velocityxlfg)
> 3. Re: Accident/Incident (davedent at comcast.net)
> 4. Re: [SPAM] AirVenture Cup Race Photo Gallery (Phil Hooper)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:51:44 -0500
> From: "velocityxlfg" <velocityxl at fastmail.fm>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Auto Conversions
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <004b01c6c539$b440ef40$6710a8c0 at tungsten.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I am Still not fling but in the process of an LT1 install. Mine is more or
> less a stock LT1 unlike most
> I have seen . I am using an Aero Kinetics Hyvo chain drive. Has been
> a fun adventure so far.
>
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Prock
> To: Velocity Reflector
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 7:50 PM
> Subject: REFLECTOR: Auto Conversions
>
>
> One of the other posts mentioned using an auto conversion. Has anyone put
> an auto conversion on
> an XL yet? I am a year away from selection an engine, but The price point
> of an
> auto engine is really hard not to at least consider. Anybody have any
> thoughts?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jack Prock
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:59:29 -0500
> From: "velocityxlfg" <velocityxl at fastmail.fm>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident/Incident
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <008801c6c53a$c9e45fc0$6710a8c0 at tungsten.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
>> I love the RG, but the faster arrival times can never make up for the
>> time spent building and adjusting the RG system
>
> Not to mention the repairs after wheels
> up landing,Gear stuck landing ,hours of discussion on the
> reflector on how to fix there retract problems.
>
> Sorry guys just a little needling from a guy
> who is still building XLFG
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Black" <dvblack at comcast.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:55 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident/Incident
>
>
>> Robin Ream wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe the factory will just come out with a modification kit to
>>> change the
>>> retracts back to fixed gear models :-) ---------- There, the
>>> problem's
>>> solved. So easy wasn't it? :-)
>>
>> That would take away all the fun, wouldn't it?
>>
>> That said, if I had it to do over I'd build a FG model. My retract
>> works magnificently, but it added hundreds of hours to my build time.
>> I love the RG, but the faster arrival times can never make up for the
>> time spent building and adjusting the RG system.
>>
>>
>> dave black
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:42:54 +0000
> From: davedent at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident/Incident
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID:
>
>
<082120061842.1220.44E9FEAD000E71BD000004C422070208539B020A0B0A900E0B at comca
> st.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have to agree with you 100%. The time spent on the RG system on my
> XL/RG
> has cost me over 90% of the work done on this plane. The gear system has
> so
> many problems with it that it's not worth it. I just flew my plane back
> from being grounded out in the middle of nowhere with gear problems that
> I
> even flew it home with the main gear down for 3.1 hrs just to get it home.
> It would have taken me 2.5 hrs to get there with the gear up. Fixing it
> in
> the field is no fun. Of course that was with, now a fix pitch prop as
> well.
> Ka-ching.
>
> I have over $5000 spent related to the landing gear in just getting it
> home.
> Counting airfares, tooling, parts, hotels, fuel, hangars,shipping
> props,etc.
> No the retract is not worth it. Yes it looks cool but it is not worth it.
> There I think I have said that enough.
>
> I love the way the plane flies. With a gear up or gear down and locked,
> it
> makes no difference. Just a little slower with them down. Looking with
> hindsight down and locked with pants is much better.
>
> First related to the gear system, I think the quality of the parts is so
> different you can't count on them fitting the same as the part you
> removed.
> So doing makes it a major task and usually a major modification to the
> structure. Once I get through these gear issues, I hope I will have my
> problems behind related to my plane. But for those still thinking on
> which
> plane to build, I would recommend the fixed gear model now. At least till
> they get the RG problems resolved.
>
> By the way I just found a crack in one of the welds on the new nose gear
> I
> installed last year. Once again there is a quality control issue here.
> No
> hard landings on the nose at all since it was installed. May have been
> side
> loading related to the failed main gear. I don't know. Just to let every
> one out there know. For safety sake let's cover these issues. I'm not
> just
> trying to vent, I'm just want those working these issues, they are not
> alone.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "velocityxlfg" <velocityxl at fastmail.fm>
>
>> > I love the RG, but the faster arrival times can never make up for the
>> > time spent building and adjusting the RG system
>>
>> Not to mention the repairs after wheels
>> up landing,Gear stuck landing ,hours of discussion on the
>> reflector on how to fix there retract problems.
>>
>> Sorry guys just a little needling from a guy
>> who is still building XLFG
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dave Black"
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 6:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident/Incident
>>
>>
>> > Robin Ream wrote:
>> >
>> >> Maybe the factory will just come out with a modification kit to
>> >> change the
>> >> retracts back to fixed gear models :-) ---------- There, the
>> >> problem's
>> >> solved. So easy wasn't it? :-)
>> >
>> > That would take away all the fun, wouldn't it?
>> >
>> > That said, if I had it to do over I'd build a FG model. My retract
>> > works magnificently, but it added hundreds of hours to my build time.
>> > I love the RG, but the faster arrival times can never make up for the
>> > time spent building and adjusting the RG system.
>> >
>> >
>> > dave black
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > To change your email address, visit
>> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >
>> > Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:11:29 -0700
> From: "Phil Hooper" <phil at hdmnet.com>
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: [SPAM] AirVenture Cup Race Photo Gallery
> To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Message-ID: <03f101c6c555$9fa60ef0$6901a8c0 at philoptiquest>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Rich, I get 404'd when I click on the link.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
> Behalf Of Rich Guerra
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 8:29 PM
> To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
> Subject: [SPAM] REFLECTOR: AirVenture Cup Race Photo Gallery
>
>
>
> To ALL:
>
>
>
> It took me a while to get organized, but I FINALLY uploaded my photo
> collection covering the AirVenture Cup Race and Oshkosh 2006. I thank
> Pat,
> Jack, Tim and others for their kind words about the race and RACE 24. You
> guys plus Scott Jones and Joe Schifferl really made this Race special!
> Having all those Velocity's in one place was a real hoot and I think
> demonstrated that our planes can make a pretty respectable showing. The
> Race
> was a real showcase of fantastic planes and was a great time for all.
> There
> are a LOT of photos which tell the story of not only the Race itself, but
> all of the fun we all had both before and after the event itself.
> Hopefully, the Race gallery conveys a little of what makes this event
> special.
>
>
>
> The Velocity factory couldn't make it due to mechanical difficulties with
> the factory demo but they have my thanks and those of the other racers for
> sponsoring the event. I hope that they will do so again next year and
> maybe
> even fly in the Race! It would be a nice way to help put a lot of VELO's
> on
> the front flight line for all to see!
>
>
>
> For those that couldn't make it this time, I hope that you will consider
> it
> for next year. It's a GREAT way to get into OSH and a great deal of fun!
> Let's see if we can get more than 5 Velocity's in the next Race!
>
>
>
> Check out the AIRVENTURE CUP RACE section on my web site:
>
> http://www.rguerra.com/velocity/
>
>
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
>
> RIch Guerra
>
> Velocity XL RG N724X aka RACE 24
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
>
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> _______________________________________________
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> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
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> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
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