REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
Brett Ferrell
bferrell at 123mail.net
Sun Apr 9 21:27:29 CDT 2006
Greg,
My apologizes, I didn't mean to come off as overheated, I don't have
anything against the Cirrus, I just wanted to point out that from a
manufacturer's data standpoint I don't see how either could be viewed as
clearly superior versus the other. In most respects its seems to me to be
toss up, with each having certain advantages. A friend of mine is thinking
of ordering one, in fact, and I won't object to flying it. ;-)
Brett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Poole" <gpoole at zeta.org.au>
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
Geez Brett,
What's all the vigour about? I'm on the bottom side of this planet and can
feel the heat down here! I really didn't read any challenges into Tom's
posts - he did indicate it was his opinion & was not intending to start any
wars....but in surrendering an opinion, he's open to being questioned - I
love it!
Given the huge variation between the same aircraft built by different people
I find manufacturer's performance specs to be misleading so let's calmly
discuss real data as a means of educating ourselves in the comparison of the
two planes and use the odd bit of personal opinion to stimulate rather than
stifle healthy debate.
...yeah, I thought the room behind the rear seats was reasonable baggage
space. Wonder how the Velocity performs (useful load) if we pull back to the
same full fuel weight that the Cirrus carries? I'll look it up later when
I'm not supposed to be working....
Greg in Sydney.
STD RG E
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Brett Ferrell
Sent: Monday, 10 April 2006 11:32 AM
To: Velocity Reflector
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
I don't know, maybe you are, but I'm just looking for data, not feeling. At
work we have a saying, "in God we trust, all others must bring data".
I'm not flying yet, but I feel that have lots of baggage room behind my rear
seats and over the whale-tail (I could easily get 4 rollaboard-sized bags in
there), and yes, I do consider the area in strakes a light baggage
compartment. And I don't believe you can really load EITHER of them with 4
"standard-sized" people AND baggage AND fuel. The SR22's full fuel load
payload is 664 pounds (http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft/performance/).
According to this (http://www.halls.md/chart/height-weight.htm) the average
American male weighs about 200 lbs and the average woman about 175 lbs. If
you take one of each, you're over 660 easy, without any luggage. Say you
and your friends are more comely than the rest of us and the men only weigh
180 and the women 130, you're still at 620 sans baggage, so you better not
take much (and you get that for less useful range). Maybe you can share
toothbrushes. ;-) Are you overloading that SR22?
As far as the top end on "most XLs", "most" are equipped with the 260HP
Lycon versus the 310HP Conti, and the manufacturer only claims 212MPH
(185kt) cruise, so I think you're being a bit generous on the top end of the
Cirrus. Since deice is listed as an option, I doubt it's lowering their
performance figures either, but it's not stated explicitly. The XL/RG's
stated cruise with the big engine is 235 MPH, so they are theoretically
faster.
Below are the stated cabin dimensions, and the SR clearly has more room, so
I grant you that. As far as facing reality, I'm all for it, but I think you
have an undocumentable belief that you can load the 22 more heavily than the
XL AND go faster. I really find it easy to load a plane to gross long
before I run out of places to put stuff, but that's me, your mileage may
vary. Your 22 may be faster than spec, but data doesn't support the class
being significantly faster than an XL, nor able to carry more payload (if
you can fit it in) than an XL *particularly* if you put a comparable engine
in it. You can believe what you want, but that's what the data tells me.
And I'm not offended, I just don't want to let conjecture go unchallenged.
You claim to do things (faster than spec more heavily laden than spec) the
manufacturer's data show to be doubtful. That doesn't mean it isn't true,
but it would seem to be an aberration.
SR22 XL SE
Cabin Length 130" 94" 84"
Cabin Width 49" 47.5" 42"
Cabin Height 50" 43.5" 42.5"
Brett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Martino" <tmartino at troubleshooter.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that you can load up a
Velocity with full fuel, four people and baggage? Even the mighty XL?
Where do you put the payload? I haven't seen any STCs for roof racks.
Do you really believe those side compartments at the wing roots
constitute a baggage compartment?
Talk all you want about payload ... but you need a place to put it!
Meanwhile I can load up four people and lots of bags in the Cirrus (been
there, done that) .. and still fly more than 200 MPH.
My Velocity happens to be very fast ... probably faster than most (even
Xls) because of the IO-540 in the 173 Standard Elite body ... but it
still just barely keeps up with the Cirrus. Both cruise around 220 MPH.
(My Cirrus is one of the few without TKS which adds several knots to
it).
I can't imagine any normal Velocities (200 horsepower or 250 horsepower)
coming close. And I already know what the V does with 300 horses.
I do not prefer the Cirrus. I love both planes for what they are!
I did not mean to offend anyone ... but it seems like we Velocity owners
really don't want to face reality. It is not a family plane.
Tom
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Brett Ferrell
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 6:18 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
Tom,
I'm glad that you're happy with both your airplanes, and not to start a
holly war, but I'm curious why you say that that "Cirrus is clearly
better
for cross-country" and it "carries more people and weight" than the
Velocity. That's pretty subjective. I'll give you that the SR22 gets
off
of the ground quicker (1,020' versus 1,300'), which is very useful out
west.
However, the stated useful load of the SR22 is 1150 pounds versus the
XL's
1100, the SR22 has a range of only 700 nm against 1,000 for the XL, and
they
have comparable top end speeds.
Looks to me like the XL and 22 are very evenly matched, with the V
having
slightly more range, with a little less load. I'd say you have a
preference
for the 22, maybe the 22 has greater payload than the SE, but I don't
think
the data is clear that the 22 has an advantage over the XL. That's
using
the publsihed data by the factories
(http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airspecs.html and
http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft/performance/). Were you referring
specifcally to the SE, or did you have different criteria in mind?
Brett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Martino" <tmartino at troubleshooter.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
Since I own both and fly them extensively ... I admit that the Cirrus
burns more gas (not much more) ... but it carries more people and weight
than the V.
For cross-country performance there is no comparison. The Cirrus wins.
However, the V (which I LOVE) is a great hot rod. Those who call it a
true four-place cross-country machine are compromising a lot. Even the
XL leaves much to be desired in this department when you try taking four
people with any kind of baggage.
I realize Vs can be built (even professionally) cheaper than I paid for
the SR-22 ... so price wise ... the argument could go on forever as to
what is the best value.
I believe the Lancair (kit) and RV10 leave V in the dust for
cross-country purposes.
Don't mistake this as a "put-down" of Vs ... I cherish mine. But I know
it's limitations.
Maybe I'd feel differently living at sea level and flying to lower
airport.
Cheers.
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 4:31 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Take Off Performance
Tom Martino wrote:
>
> Once flying ... the performance is about equal.
>
> Is it the canard that makes it sluggish on take-off? That's the only
> tin I can surmise.
>
Really?? I've flown a couple SR22's and seems to me they use a lot more
gas than a Velocity for the same speed. Which isn't equal performance in
my mind.
Scott
--
-
The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of
speech.
Molly Ivans
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