REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000

Terry Miles terrence_miles at hotmail.com
Sat Sep 24 08:46:49 CDT 2005


Fred, I am always interested in learning.  Fire away.  Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Marconi
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:15 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000 


Most fatalities occur as a result of head injuries, we need to loon at
safety belts with airbags included in the safety belts.  I posted
information on this and no one responded.  Interesting.  We can use the
factory seats and airbag safety belts and achieve more, I think.

If any one is interested in the information let me know.

Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Martino" <tmartino at troubleshooter.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000


You think form fitting, memory foam and helmet type seas will kill you
faster that Velocity factory seats?  Perhaps you should inform NASCAR?
And every other racer in the country ... since these types seats have
been saving lives for years in major collision on the track.


-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Sower
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 3:18 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000 [heur]

<... At some G-loading it's the body that would break anyway and not the
seat...> Actually, I think the rigidly anchored, form fitting,
temper/memory foam covered seats that have been discussed will kill you
quicker than the factory seats.  Crash survivability turns on structure
crushing/breaking and absorbing energy.  The factory seats have [a
little of] that.  Temper foam (or any other cushion for that matter) is
comfortable, but useless for absorbing impact energy. A good 4-point
restraint is as good as you can do IMO, but I haven't seen one in a
Velocity.  Cozys and EZs have them, but they have rigid, structural
seats, so there's no impact energy absorption.

Composite planes are just too damn strong to be crash worthy ... Jim S.



Carruth, Joel L wrote:

>I agree that the seats are a somewhat flimsy. However, correct me if I
missed something here, but from the last picture (100-3047) of the
cockpit, it appears that the hinges are still intact - at least not
broken. It looks more like the #10 screws were either sheared off or
pulled from the aluminum hard point.
>
>Assuming you stay with the factory seat (less $), it seems that the
following would be necessary:
>1) Instead of #10s, use some AN-3s. With a doubler+nutplate on the 
>inside.
>2) Extra glass (3 BID??, UNI?) moving up the sides covering the
aluminum
attach point and doubler.  Perhaps some UNI going from side-to-side at
shoulder blade height.
>
>Probably not as good as an engineered seat, but it will definitely 
>help. At
some G-loading it's the body that would break anyway and not the seat.
>
>Any other reinforcement ideas?
>
>Joel Carruth
>Lockheed Martin
>JSF - Pilot System Software
>W: (817) 763-4337
>Fax: (817) 777-8378
>joel.l.carruth at lmco.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:21 PM
>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000
>
>There are seats for race cars available that are very light and 
>designed for high speed car crashes.
>
>I ave an 97 Std. and the seats are part of the air frame.  I can't see 
>them coming apart, but I also can't seem them offering any crush to 
>lessen thr impact.
>
>Scott
>
>Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
>
>
>>The solution that was put into my plane was seats out of a Corvette.  
>>They
are low profile (to enable the low-slung Vette look) and seem to be
substantial, yet don't seem to weight much.  Semi-reclining type auto
seats may be worth a look.
>>
>>Chuck
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] 
>>On
Behalf Of Tom Martino
>>Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:37 PM
>>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000
>>
>>This comes at the exact time that I pulled my seats because I decided 
>>they
are flimsy.  One day while flying in chop ... I felt my self being
bounced a couple of times up against the seat back ... and I did not
like the feeling. The seat back seems weak.
>>
>>
>>I am molding buckets that attach to the floor directly.  The "buckets"
will be lined with a system of shock absorbing material (like in a
helmet) with memory foam on top.
>>
>>The bucket is one piece bottom and back, with some flex ... but no
"joints".  It will cradle my body somewhat like a clam-shell.  I call it
a seat helmet or "pod".
>>
>>I totally agree with many accident findings that forced landings and 
>>rapid
descents often turn fatal due to inadequate restraint, shock absorption
and seat structure.  I hope to overcome these weaknesses.
>>
>>Tom Martino
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] 
>>On
Behalf Of Jim Sower
>>Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:10 AM
>>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000 [heur]
>>
>>I seem to recall that Paul bought his seats from Velocity - along with

>>some other things. I never liked the seat structure but accepted that,

>>like spam cans, the seat has little or nothing to do with restraint - 
>>the harness being bolted to the airframe. I further assumed that the 
>>seat structure would crush on vertical impact and therefore be of some

>>benefit in absorbing energy. I'm skeptical about the plane springing 
>>backwards as I am about intimations that he was flying out of limits 
>>aft
CG.
>>
>>I assumed that the Velocity restraint structure had been tested 
>>satisfactorily ... Jim S.
>>
>>Al Gietzen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Some of you may have seen this on other venues. This is not happy 
>>>reading but I post it here because of one factor that relates to our 
>>>airplanes - the seats.
>>>
>>>You can skip the rest of the report, but note that the lack of 
>>>seatback support is cited as a cause in the pilots death. The seat is

>>>essentially the same as the Velocity. From the first time I saw the 
>>>Velocity seats I was very concerned that is provides very little 
>>>support against strong forces vertically or from the rear. Once the 
>>>back support breaks there is no longer a restraint system.
>>>
>>>And speaking of restraint system, I also pressed the factory years 
>>>ago for some test of the 5/16" bolt threaded into ¼" aluminum block 
>>>as an adequate seat belt attachment; particularly for the inboard 
>>>side of the front seat.
>>>
>>>The analysis of the 4 canardians who examined the wreckage of Paul 
>>>Conner's aircraft is now available at:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>http://www.cozybuilders.org/N2992_Accident_Eval/
>
>
>
>>>Al
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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