REFLECTOR: Seat hinge ideas,

Terry Miles terrence_miles at hotmail.com
Fri Sep 23 19:54:56 CDT 2005


Joel,
Good point.  I just today called Charley Vogelsong in Dillsburg, PA for
a 6 foot length of 6"strip 3/8ths thick, cromoly 4130 steel 717-432-4589
($16 or so before shipping).  His place is just 20 minutes from
Harrisburg which is my 2nd home.  It is quite an operation they have.
In 20 years he told me he has never spent one dime in advertising...it
is all word of mouth.    

I'm going w/ your advice about a more robust hinge bolt, and I am going
to replace the AL hinge plates w/ steel and run the lengths out to 12"
instead of the current length.  Then, to make the seat back more than
the one-fits-all rake angle, I hope to fashion an aray of alignment
holes in the overlap hinge area with a pull pin.   ...plans subject to
change.   The idea is Malcolm Collier's...I am just the attentive
listener.
Terry 

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Carruth, Joel L
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:18 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000


I agree that the seats are a somewhat flimsy. However, correct me if I
missed something here, but from the last picture (100-3047) of the
cockpit, it appears that the hinges are still intact - at least not
broken. It looks more like the #10 screws were either sheared off or
pulled from the aluminum hard point. 

Assuming you stay with the factory seat (less $), it seems that the
following would be necessary:
1) Instead of #10s, use some AN-3s. With a doubler+nutplate on the
inside.
2) Extra glass (3 BID??, UNI?) moving up the sides covering the aluminum
attach point and doubler.  Perhaps some UNI going from side-to-side at
shoulder blade height. 

Probably not as good as an engineered seat, but it will definitely help.
At some G-loading it's the body that would break anyway and not the
seat. 

Any other reinforcement ideas?

Joel Carruth
Lockheed Martin 
JSF - Pilot System Software
W: (817) 763-4337
Fax: (817) 777-8378
joel.l.carruth at lmco.com

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Scott Derrick
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:21 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000

There are seats for race cars available that are very light and designed

for high speed car crashes. 

I ave an 97 Std. and the seats are part of the air frame.  I can't see 
them coming apart, but I also can't seem them offering any crush to 
lessen thr impact.

Scott

Chuck Jensen wrote:

>The solution that was put into my plane was seats out of a Corvette.  
>They are low profile (to enable the low-slung Vette look) and seem to 
>be substantial, yet don't seem to weight much.  Semi-reclining type 
>auto seats may be worth a look.
>
>Chuck
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On

>Behalf Of Tom Martino
>Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:37 PM
>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000 
>
>This comes at the exact time that I pulled my seats because I decided 
>they are flimsy.  One day while flying in chop ... I felt my self being

>bounced a couple of times up against the seat back ... and I did not 
>like the feeling.  The seat back seems weak.
>
>
>I am molding buckets that attach to the floor directly.  The "buckets" 
>will be lined with a system of shock absorbing material (like in a 
>helmet) with memory foam on top.
>
>The bucket is one piece bottom and back, with some flex ... but no 
>"joints".  It will cradle my body somewhat like a clam-shell.  I call 
>it a seat helmet or "pod".
>
>I totally agree with many accident findings that forced landings and 
>rapid descents often turn fatal due to inadequate restraint, shock 
>absorption and seat structure.  I hope to overcome these weaknesses.
>
>Tom Martino
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On

>Behalf Of Jim Sower
>Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:10 AM
>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Accident report - SQ2000 [heur]
>
>I seem to recall that Paul bought his seats from Velocity - along with
>some other things. I never liked the seat structure but accepted that, 
>like spam cans, the seat has little or nothing to do with restraint - 
>the harness being bolted to the airframe. I further assumed that the 
>seat structure would crush on vertical impact and therefore be of some 
>benefit in absorbing energy. I'm skeptical about the plane springing 
>backwards as I am about intimations that he was flying out of limits
aft CG.
>
>I assumed that the Velocity restraint structure had been tested
>satisfactorily ... Jim S.
>
>Al Gietzen wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Some of you may have seen this on other venues. This is not happy
>>reading but I post it here because of one factor that relates to our 
>>airplanes - the seats.
>>
>>You can skip the rest of the report, but note that the lack of
>>seatback support is cited as a cause in the pilots death. The seat is 
>>essentially the same as the Velocity. From the first time I saw the 
>>Velocity seats I was very concerned that is provides very little 
>>support against strong forces vertically or from the rear. Once the 
>>back support breaks there is no longer a restraint system.
>>
>>And speaking of restraint system, I also pressed the factory years ago
>>for some test of the 5/16" bolt threaded into ¼" aluminum block as an 
>>adequate seat belt attachment; particularly for the inboard side of 
>>the front seat.
>>
>>The analysis of the 4 canardians who examined the wreckage of Paul
>>Conner's aircraft is now available at:
>>
http://www.cozybuilders.org/N2992_Accident_Eval/

>>
>>Al
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--
>>
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>>
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