REFLECTOR: electrical sys design

Rene Dugas dugasd at bellsouth.net
Fri Feb 25 13:25:53 CST 2005


Agree with the tendency toward digression.  Manuals are great.  Bob has
trouble staying on task.

Fun to talk to.

Rene'

 

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 5:13 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: electrical sys design

 

Terry-

You will gain a ton of useful information from Bob- he know his stuff-
he doesn't mind hearing/debating any other viewpoints either- I went to
his seminar 2 years ago, it was invaluable- one thing though- someone in
the group needs to keep him focused on the subject at hand- in our group
things tended to go off topic a lot- which was fine if we were spending
a week with him, but at the 2 day seminar, I needed to get as much
pertinent info as I could. Great door prizes too- I got a really nice
set of PDIG crimpers, and someone got a small handheld GPS too!

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Terrence Miles
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:05 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: electrical sys design

Jim, Greg, Alex,

 

Thanks for the stories, the great explanation and the good advice.   The
Reflector is a great reference.  Believe me, I will keep all this in
mind and build my skills and experience slowly...and I follow the point
about the Velo's slow roll rate make RV-8 a more exciting aerobatic
platform.  I too have XC as my primary use.  That said, I gotta son who
flew the F-18 and well... we never been "blue side down" together yet.
I'll take my time learning.  Don't worry.  The T-38 had very stubby
wings and giant ailerons...this is going to be a lot different, I know.


 

New topic:  I am headed to Bob Nuckol's AeroElectric seminar in about a
week.  It will be just outside of St. Louis.  Anybody building down
there?  I plan to ask him about the advantages and feasibilities of two
40-amp alternators, versus say a 60-amp and a 25-amp and ramifications
on engine build up/instalation that this choice entails.  Also the
regards internal regulators versus external regulars and advantages for
cockpit warnings/indications.  I am going w/ the XL-RG-5 and likely the
LY 540 K and being only 150 lbs, I already decided on two batts for CG!!

 

Anybody else have an electrical question or two that I can ask for the
group?

 

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Sower
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:53 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aerobatics: Rolling about a point

Terry,
Aileron rolls in my experience are positive G maneuvers.  A full
acrobatic airplane can do aileron rolls quite nicely without negative G
(for the most part - like except for demos of multiple multiple rolls
with no altitude change).   Like, by the time the airplane figures out
that the nose should be dropping, you're not upside down any more.  The
problem with the Velocity is  A) limited roll authority, and B) large
lateral (rolling) inertia that has to be overcome result in painfully
slow roll rates.  One way to compensate for this is: start level at your
entry speed (you mentioned 185 kias), yank in a lot of back stick
(4-5G?) and snap your nose up 10* or more before you start the maneuver.
You don't have to climb, just establish your velocity vector at least
10* up.  Then put in all the stick and rudder you have.  The swept wings
of the Velocity will help with your roll rate to the extent you have
positive G and full rudder.  If you're heading uphill (even if your
altitude hasn't changed yet) you are in a position to scoop out a good
bit without losing all that much altitude.  Starting anything remotely
like level, the sorry roll rate and high inertia of the Velocity will
cause you to scoop out so hell wouldn't have it, so be sure to be going
smartly uphill when you start.  Whatever else happens, once you start
DON'T STOP (unless you fully intend to do a split-S).

By way of perspective, military fighters do not have inverted fuel or
oil.  The ones I flew had around 10 sec of inverted fuel and no oil at
all.  A great deal of ACM maneuvering with swept wing fighters involves
"rudder rolls" which as the name implies uses a lot more rudder than
aileron.  Demo planes (Blues, T-Birds, etc.) have very elaborate fixes
to give them full inverted fuel and oil.

By NO means do any rolls below 4000 - 5000 AGL until you've done a LOT
of them at high altitude.  Even when you do it as best the airplane is
able to, it's so awkward and sluggish that it isn't even any fun.

More better, take Alex's advice - do this stuff in an airplane that can
do it right ... Jim S.

Terrence Miles wrote:



Hey.  Thanks Alex.  I understand that explanation better.  I know I have
lots to learn about carnards.  I am filing your reply in my "ops" box,
but could do me this last favor? 

 

Let me say it all back to you.  Let's just say that I am in level,
unaccelerated flight at 185 kts and 5000 feet.  Let's also say to hold
all this constant, I need +2 pitch on my attitude indicator.  If I leave
the power alone, then raise the deck angle to +10, neutralize the
elevator, and than apply full left aileron, then you are saying that the
carnard will continue to pull me "upwards" (that is 90 degrees from a
line defined from cannard wing-tip to wing-tip.)  ...so the to watch me
from an in-trail position I am sort of cork screwing thru the air?

 

If I understood you right, can't this carnard factor be countered with a
tad of down elevator (and not zero G) so as to keep the nose on a near
constant spot on the horizon, and maybe roll-out back wings level at
something near my entry pitch angle of +2 with little altitude change?

 

Regards,

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:00 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Aerobatics: Non center line rudder

Hi Terry-

About the aileron roll maneuver - you need to think about the difference
in lift points on the canard vs. the standard fixed wing- if you see
these as arrows pointing straight up from the fuselage, it is easier to
understand - normally these forces are fighting gravity- in the case of
the standard there is a single large lift vector centered right around
the center of mass, on the canard, there are two lift vectors one in
front, and one behind the center of mass. when you flip the standard up
side down, all you need to do it change the angle of attack, and the
lift vector goes through the floor instead of the top of the fuselage.
on the velocity, you can not change the angle of attack to negative,
because it is not set up to have a negative angle of attack, so even a
simple aileron roll will be more like a barrel roll because the lift
vector of the canard will not go negative- it is just like going through
an aileron roll with constant back pressure on the stick of a standard
planform aircraft- so if you are not careful, when you roll 180 and
hesitate because the nose is not going where you think it will, then it
tends to perform more of a split S.  The Berkut company had their
demonstrator doing a lot of interesting things (before it crashed) it
could do loops, and some rolls too, but the roll rate was probably
double of the Velocity, so they could get away with more.

Anyway, best to make some friends in the RV community so you can go out
on Saturday morning and get your fix- that is pretty much what I have
done!! I can't really think of any 4 place that beats the Velocity in
cross country comfort- even though the Lancair is faster, it is not as
roomy or stable or quiet......

 


Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Terrence Miles
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 12:32 PM
To: alex157 at direcway.com; 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Aerobatics: Non center line rudder

Alex,

 

Thanks for the advice.  Actually the RV8 was a contender, but you freeze
out your backseater (in my case wife) on the cross country
flights...which is my principal use.  I don't think the RV10 is stressed
for aerobatics.  My only experience with acro is in a T-38 in 1968 doing
about 300 kts.  So it's been a while, and add to that I have limited
time in SEL recips.  Sorry for sounding so stupid.  I am just trying to
get an understanding of accelerate/decelerate capabilities and more on
the flight characteristics of a carnard.  I am getting the XL so those
rudders are way out there and don't work in tandem.  Thanks for your
input.  I get your point about sustained level inverted flight is
different with a cannard design.  

 

I still don't think of an aileron roll maneuver as ever going negative.
It you start w/ the nose up +10 from level I can't invision losing
altitude either.  About the cuban eight...but I would want to execute
constant-heading half rolls without the airplane fishtailing due to any
possibly needed non-centerline rudder inputs to compenstate for torque
influences w/ larger throttle changes.  Is this an issue?  Have you got
a comment there?  As a small aside, my Saturday acro occasionss would
not include any intentional neg g's!  Yuk.   Thanks for the welcome and
for getting back when you have a minute.  

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 12:01 AM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: WANTED: Acro contacts

Hey Terry,

Welcome to the reflector!

About the velocity doing aerobatics, the canard design in general, and
the Velocity in particular does not lend itself well to any negative G
maneuvers due to the load being shared by both the wing and the canard,
in most other planforms, the wing does all of the carrying, so if you
want to go inverted, you just need to fly the wing at a positive angle
of attack with the ground. If you try a roll with the velocity, you
might pull it off, some have, but chances are, as soon as you go
inverted, you will find that there  isn't enough down elevator to keep
the nose level, and the canard is going to pull you really hard toward
the center of the earth, and you will end up doing an un-commanded
split-s.  If you like doing Aerobatics, even Saturday morning style, you
would be better off in an RV which is a blast to fly that way. 

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Terrence Miles
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:10 PM
To: 'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: WANTED: Acro contacts

Hi,

I should enjoy my ignoble status while it lasts. I have the honor to

be the very newest running nose, wide-eyed kid on the block. The kit

gets delivered in a month or so.   In fact I can't seem to get my own
email out (reflector at tbvf.org) <mailto:reflector at tbvf.org%29>  so I had
to use the reply function to get this on the Reflector.  Sorry Dave.  

I've got a quick kind survey question on acro. I bought the V kit for xc
reasons, but are any of you out there doing cuban eights? Is the
airplane any good as an acro platform? I know it can take the G
loading...but what about roll rate with rudder deflection not
centerline?   Rudder and aileron size and effectiveness? I didn't
understand a thread in the archives about dishing out of an aileron
roll...did they mean like barrel roll?  If you raise the nose just a
little and bang the stick to the left won't it just roll around a point
w/ very little if any heading change, as opposed to barrel roll where
the flight path simulates a corkscrew as opposed to a spinning top?  

Are there and VNE problems w/ say doing a simple split S and no speed
brake? The only acro I have done is in jets, so I am a little lost on
this stuff.  Has anyone developed any target speeds/power settings for
continuous cuban eights?  Anybody doing in trail formation stuff that I
could talk to off line? 

Thanks for helping with this. When I become more informed myself, I hope
to somehow return the favor down line.

Terry

Now back to your regularly scheduled program....

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of davedent at comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:18 PM
To: rwhenderson at msn.com; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: WANTED: West Coast CFI (SF Bay Area)

Check with Steve Murphy.  He gave me my company check ride.  Also has
checked out many others.  He will charge you a small fee for the check
ride and light fees for the training in your plane.  Plus his cost for
fuel to come to your airport.  He live up in the Reno area.  

He had no problem with me seeing I had 1500 hrs in  canards before
flying my Velocity.  I now have 60 hrs on it since last March.  

I'm not a CFI but if you need time in a Velocity before you fly yours
come by and we can make it happen. 

Dave N32XL

LVK

-------------- Original message -------------- 

> Anyone know any good instructors on the West coast? I'm looking for a
CFI 
> with Velocity experience in the San Francisco Area for an insurance
check 
> ride & sign-off. 
> 
> Must be a CFI w/ at least 50hrs in a Velocity (SUV preferred, but not 
> required). Any referrals would be greatly appreciated! 
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> - Rob Henderson 
> rwhenderson at msn.com 
> 
> 
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