REFLECTOR: RE: Reflector Digest, Vol 19, Issue 21 Gear doors
Mark Riley
anriley at comcast.net
Mon Dec 5 17:31:46 CST 2005
When I was completing my Elite RG, I mentioned to Duane that I'd spent a lot
of time getting the gear doors just so. He advised me that they had tested
the factory ship with and without main gear doors and hadn't noticed any
change in speed. Basically its just for looks and I will be doing the main
gear doors again anyway for those air to air photos
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
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Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:00 PM
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Subject: Reflector Digest, Vol 19, Issue 21
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed (Richard Riley)
2. RE: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed (Alex Balic)
3. Re: Franklin starter (MikeWatsonSpg at cs.com)
4. Re: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed (Scott Derrick)
5. Re: Tufted Velocity (Sid Knox)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:30:21 -0800
From: Richard Riley <richard at riley.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051204190905.05522eb0 at mail.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-522F7813
On Berkut we had the beefiest gear doors you've ever seen - 10 plies
of carbon, full length extruded hinge (ms2001-6) and no gear extend
speed. I've opened the gear at 200 kts. We had an electric speed
brake, the brake itself was about 10 plies of glass in various
orientations. With the brake out, the gear down, cross controlled at
idle with a fixed pitch prop, I've had an 6000 FPM rate of decent at
about 180 kts.
Just a datapoint.
At 06:42 PM 12/4/05, you wrote:
>I have been flying a T210 lately and can't say enough about how
>versatile the 165 Kt gear extension speed is. Once extended you can
>run up to Vne. This 210 does not have any main gear doors, just
>nose gear doors.
>Yesterday I was flying in from Las Cruces, was day dreaming and
>suddenly realized I was 15 miles from the airport at 10,500 and
>needed to be down to 7,500 in 10-12 miles, and slowed down to 120
>kts when reaching 7,500. Totally impossible in my V. I let the
>gear down, and without touching anything else was descending at
>800ft a minute at 150 kts indicated. I pulled 2 inches of MAP every
>2 minutes, and made a straight in with no problems, no
>stress... All because I could extend the gear at such a high speed.
>
>My V should cruise much faster once I'm back in the air and I'm
>concerned about being able to slow down or descend rapidly if
>required, and not abuse the engine by having to pull the throttle
>from 75% to idle. The only option in a Velocity cruising above 120
>kts.. Well you can extend both rudders but thats not nearly enough.
>
>I have considered modifying the speed brake, but not sure what would
>be needed to insure it wouldn't depart the airframe at 165 kts if
>extended, much less 200 Kts..
>So I'm now considering emulating the T210.
>
>First by removing most of the main doors:
> Leave the portion that covers the brake unit attached but beef it up.
> Leave the short portion that seals off the fuselage when the
> gear is up, and beef that piece up too.
> Glass the brake line onto the gear leg, or add a fiberglass
> channel for it to sit in(not carve out but add a 'U' channel).
>
>Then beef up the nose gear doors and hinge points. A couple
>carbon fiber layers on the inside of the doors
> Reinforce the hinges and fuselage pivot points with carbon fiber
>
>I wonder if the nose gear extension mechanism(rods, sliders, hyd
>ram, etc) would be up to a 165 kt extension? Somebody had
>mentioned they were testing a simplified nose gear door mechanism
>that used the nose strut to extend the doors, is this working?
>
>I remember reading a post from Scott Baker that the gear extended
>speed, sans doors, was Vne, like the T210. Is this correct?
>
>I also remember reading that a couple of folks have tested their
>planes with and without main doors with no noticable speed loss. Correct?
>
>Sound sensible? I really think with the high cruise speeds of the
>Velocity, being able to extend the gear at around 165 kts, would
>really enhance its capability and safety.
>
>Scott
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:40:34 -0600
From: "Alex Balic" <alex157 at pwhome.com>
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed
To: "'Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list'"
<reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <06a201c5f95e$69d620d0$6401a8c0 at ALEX>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I was flying a Long EZ for a while- didn't like the speed brake, because
it was very difficult to deploy (manual handle) so I would either use
the dual rudder idea for minor drag application, or pull some 2-3 G
s-turns/ 360 turns to load up the wings (very effective to bleed off
energy and kind of fun too) when I get my no-speed brake XLRG flying
(spring?) will experiment with doing the same- hopefully someone will
have a working Cato installation by that time too....... would rather
not have to experiment with the gear speed and find out the hard way
that the doors could not take high speed.......
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
Behalf Of Joel Smith
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 10:07 PM
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed
If you look closely, the wheel wells for the T210 are behind the main
body most likely in a low pressure zone. Cessna claims that the removal
of the gear doors did not reduce it's speed. My observations and others
support this, however I have heard that if you aft load the T210 (which
is pretty hard to do staying within the station limitations) you will
incur a 2-3 Kt speed loss. This would make sense to me given that this
probably exposes the open wheel wells to more air flow.
I believe that open wheel wells on the Velocity would be a lot more
costly given that they can not be obscured in a low pressure zone. I
believe that the main gear doors should remain. I believe that they
could be strengthen to tolerate the higher speeds. The additional
support for the gear doors (depending on design) may increase gear down
drag.
I think the nose gear doors would be most challenging. I am not sure the
T210 nose gear doors are any stronger than the Velocity nose gear doors,
but I think there may be less drag on them. One might be able to make an
internal shroud for the nose gear to protect the internals.
I definitely agree that the high gear speed on the T210 is a nice ace to
hold. But I seldom put mine down above 120 Kts. It just increases
maintenance cost and I feel is unnecessary. If necessary, a turn can get
you down.
I am not convinced having a higher gear speed on a Velocity offers any
safety points.
Joel
79 T210N
Std. RG
Scott Derrick wrote:
> I have been flying a T210 lately and can't say enough about how
> versatile the 165 Kt gear extension speed is. Once extended you can
> run up to Vne. This 210 does not have any main gear doors, just nose
> gear doors.
> Yesterday I was flying in from Las Cruces, was day dreaming and
> suddenly realized I was 15 miles from the airport at 10,500 and needed
> to be down to 7,500 in 10-12 miles, and slowed down to 120 kts when
> reaching 7,500. Totally impossible in my V. I let the gear down,
> and without touching anything else was descending at 800ft a minute at
> 150 kts indicated. I pulled 2 inches of MAP every 2 minutes, and made
> a straight in with no problems, no stress... All because I could
> extend the gear at such a high speed.
>
> My V should cruise much faster once I'm back in the air and I'm
> concerned about being able to slow down or descend rapidly if
> required, and not abuse the engine by having to pull the throttle from
> 75% to idle. The only option in a Velocity cruising above 120 kts..
> Well you can extend both rudders but thats not nearly enough.
>
> I have considered modifying the speed brake, but not sure what would
> be needed to insure it wouldn't depart the airframe at 165 kts if
> extended, much less 200 Kts..
> So I'm now considering emulating the T210.
>
> First by removing most of the main doors:
> Leave the portion that covers the brake unit attached but beef it
up.
> Leave the short portion that seals off the fuselage when the gear
> is up, and beef that piece up too.
> Glass the brake line onto the gear leg, or add a fiberglass
> channel for it to sit in(not carve out but add a 'U' channel).
> Then beef up the nose gear doors and hinge points. A couple
> carbon fiber layers on the inside of the doors
> Reinforce the hinges and fuselage pivot points with carbon fiber
> I wonder if the nose gear extension mechanism(rods, sliders, hyd
> ram, etc) would be up to a 165 kt extension? Somebody had mentioned
> they were testing a simplified nose gear door mechanism that used the
> nose strut to extend the doors, is this working?
>
> I remember reading a post from Scott Baker that the gear extended
> speed, sans doors, was Vne, like the T210. Is this correct?
>
> I also remember reading that a couple of folks have tested their
> planes with and without main doors with no noticable speed loss.
> Correct?
>
> Sound sensible? I really think with the high cruise speeds of the
> Velocity, being able to extend the gear at around 165 kts, would
> really enhance its capability and safety.
>
> Scott
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives:
http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:10:40 EST
From: MikeWatsonSpg at cs.com
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin starter
To: reflector at tvbf.org
Message-ID: <275.170e2a9.30c5a460 at cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks Larry.
Mike W.
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:37:40 -0700
From: Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed
To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <43945EC4.2050902 at tnstaafl.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Tom,
I'm very interested in your new nose gear mechanism. I remember your
first post about it and it sounded simple and effective.
Scott
Tom Martino wrote:
>I can tell you first hand ... that my gear doors made no appreciable
>difference in indicated airspeed.
>
>I can indicate 200 knots with or without them. I could not notice any
>difference at all.
>
>I did away with them. Keeping it simple!
>
>I also came up with a unique way to close the nose gear doors. I will
>soon post photos. I wanted to wait until I had 50 hours on it ... which
>has come and gone.
>
>The nose door system consists of a cable (similar to the rudder cable)
>with a spring on each end. The cable is looped through an eyelet on the
>nose strut and then each spring end is connected to the gear door.
>
>When the strut is lifted to bring up the gear, the cable pulls on the
>doors and the springs keep them tightly closed. (The cable runs freely
>which automatically equals out the pressure on each door.)
>
>When the strut drops, it pulls down on the gear doors to open them.
>
>I am not sure what gear extension speed is safe to use with no main gear
>doors, but there isn't much to falter. Can anyone venture a guess as to
>how much speed the main gear struts can take?
>
>Tom
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:43 PM
>To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>Subject: REFLECTOR: 165 kt Gear Extension Speed [bayes][heur]
>
>I have been flying a T210 lately and can't say enough about how
>versatile the 165 Kt gear extension speed is. Once extended you can run
>
>up to Vne. This 210 does not have any main gear doors, just nose gear
>doors.
>
>Yesterday I was flying in from Las Cruces, was day dreaming and suddenly
>
>realized I was 15 miles from the airport at 10,500 and needed to be down
>
>to 7,500 in 10-12 miles, and slowed down to 120 kts when reaching
>7,500. Totally impossible in my V. I let the gear down, and without
>
>touching anything else was descending at 800ft a minute at 150 kts
>indicated. I pulled 2 inches of MAP every 2 minutes, and made a
>straight in with no problems, no stress... All because I could extend
>the gear at such a high speed.
>
>My V should cruise much faster once I'm back in the air and I'm
>concerned about being able to slow down or descend rapidly if required,
>and not abuse the engine by having to pull the throttle from 75% to
>idle. The only option in a Velocity cruising above 120 kts.. Well you
>can extend both rudders but thats not nearly enough.
>
>I have considered modifying the speed brake, but not sure what would be
>needed to insure it wouldn't depart the airframe at 165 kts if extended,
>
>much less 200 Kts..
>
>So I'm now considering emulating the T210.
>
>First by removing most of the main doors:
> Leave the portion that covers the brake unit attached but beef it
>up.
> Leave the short portion that seals off the fuselage when the gear
>is up, and beef that piece up too.
> Glass the brake line onto the gear leg, or add a fiberglass channel
>
>for it to sit in(not carve out but add a 'U' channel).
>
>Then beef up the nose gear doors and hinge points.
> A couple carbon fiber layers on the inside of the doors
> Reinforce the hinges and fuselage pivot points with carbon fiber
>
>I wonder if the nose gear extension mechanism(rods, sliders, hyd ram,
>etc) would be up to a 165 kt extension? Somebody had mentioned they
>were testing a simplified nose gear door mechanism that used the nose
>strut to extend the doors, is this working?
>
>I remember reading a post from Scott Baker that the gear extended speed,
>
>sans doors, was Vne, like the T210. Is this correct?
>
>I also remember reading that a couple of folks have tested their planes
>with and without main doors with no noticable speed loss. Correct?
>
>Sound sensible? I really think with the high cruise speeds of the
>Velocity, being able to extend the gear at around 165 kts, would really
>enhance its capability and safety.
>
>Scott
>
>_______________________________________________
>To change your email address, visit
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit the gallery! www.tvbf.org/gallery
>user:pw =vbf:jamaicangoose
>Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 11:37:55 -0600
From: "Sid Knox" <sbjknox at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Tufted Velocity
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Message-ID: <007601c5f9c2$a1831060$66f8eb3f at texastornado>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Brian and Chuck,
I am not ignoring you...
I uploaded another photo but it apparently exceeded the file-size limit and
"Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval."
Sid
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