REFLECTOR: Re: Quality Stick Grips
Richard Riley
richard at riley.net
Fri Oct 29 11:03:28 CDT 2004
At 07:10 AM 10/29/04, "Jim, Jim Monti, Monti" <toflylow at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Morning Richard,
>
>Sorry for the delay in replying. I was off doing other
>things and not looking at anything on Yahoo for a
>while..
That's fine, I'll post my reply to the email sites to make sure you get it.
>--- Richard Riley <richard at riley.net> wrote:
> > At 05:42 AM 10/5/04, you wrote:
> > >Morning Richard,
> > >
> > >I am an outside observer of some emails to a couple
> > >of different sites.
> > >
> > >I have a question.
> > >
> > >Where did you get your information about the
> > >Infinity Aerospace Grips?
> > >
> > >As an engineer and long time private pilot, and
> > >there is nothing else on the market for the price,
> > >and quality that fits the capabilities of the
> > >Infinity Aerospace grip.
> > >
> > >Would like to hear your comments.
> > >
> > >Howard
> >
> > I've dealt with him - and with people who've dealt
> > with him - for 12
> > years. Though I agree with you that the grips are
> > OK, they're hardly the only thing out there. CH
> > makes a good one for less.
>
>If you are sitting still, on the ground, the switches
>in a CH grip may be alright, but you WANT more force
>required if you are bouncing around in turbulence
>(sp).... You NEED a very noticeable tactile response
>out of the switch and the CH switches AREN'T good for
>that.
The CH stick I have is exactly that. The switches aren't the same as the
computer joystick, their activation force is probably a pound or so. In
the same range as the Infinity stick.
> > Automatic Flagman makes a very good one for a little
> > more (they changed their name, I can't remember what
> > the new one is, something like Stick Grips Inc.)
>
>Sorry a toy grip isn't what I want to put my life on.
The Flagman grip is anything but a toy. Aircraft Spruce has them in 2 and
4 switch models, $130 and $185. The sample I saw was covered in
beautifully sewn molded leather. They were originally made for the
cropdusting industry, where you spend 12 hours a day with the stick grip in
your hand. That's what the "flagman" refers to.
> > I was given one of his grips and took it apart.
> > It's fine, but nothing special. The switches are
> > better than the ones on computer joysticks but
> > they're all available from Mouser or Digikey.
>
>Yes and your point..... Digikey and the like are sites
>for small quantities of components. Unless you are
>buying 500K quantities, the switch MFGRs won't give
>you good prices or the time of day.... I have used
>Digikey for small quantities for years.
Exactly. If, for example, you're buying a Thrustmaster Fighter-X grip, and
changing out the 5 switches so they're higher force, it will cost all of
$10 for the stick and $20 for the switches. Yes, it will take an evening's
work to retrofit them (hint - for drilling out the holes where the switch
caps go, a unibit is very handy) but we're building our own AIRPLANES from
scratch. A couple of hours work on a stick grip is hardly challenging.
If I can buy all the switches I need form Digikey for a price that's low, I
don't care if I can talk to the manufacturers or not. That's why stocking
distributors exist.
> > Or if you keep your eyes open, you can buy a real
> > B-8 grip for less than he
> > charges. I got a grip from an Apache helicopter for
> > $100.
>
>And it was worn out, and you have to expend your time
>and money to repair it.
Actually, no, it wasn't. Certainly the helicopter it was from had to have
been scrap, but the grip itself had seen very little use. It's all a
matter of shopping around and finding what's right for you. I had to expend
time to adapt it, but I would have had to do the same thing with an
Infinity grip - as you know, all homebuilts are different, and no matter
what grip you use you'll have to make it work with a homebuilt.
>My point is... it is one thing to try and save money,
>but safety and functionality are FIRST.
>
>I have consulted as a mechanical engineer in the
>consumer market, military market, and commercial
>market for years (like 25 year), and you don't want a
>toy switch being the failure point one day when you
>life might depend on it.
So, don't use toy switches. If you're adapting from a computer joystick,
use switches from Digikey. Pick what activation force you want, what cap
size and color, and install them. You'll have a stick that's better than
Infinity's, at a lower price, and the satisfaction of knowing that you did
it yourself. If you want real, genuine brand new NASA/Milspec switches and
you're willing to pay for them, you can get them (I use Flame Enterprises,
www.flamecorp.com). If you want commercial grade switches that are good
for 100,000 cycles, use Mouser.
In either case, for heaven's sake don't wire your airplane so that if a
single switch on your joystick fails you're going to crash. You can safely
finish a flight without a push to talk button, or an ident button, or a
starter, or whatever else you're going to put on a stick. Your trim forces
shouldn't be so strong that you can't survive runaway trim. If something
can fail, 1) examine the consequences of that failure 2) minimize the risk
and 3) build in redundancy. My design goal is that no single failure in
ANY system is non-survivable. (I can't quite get there - the primary wing
carry-through structure always seems to be a single point failure.) But I
always have 2 layers of redundancy in my electrical system. A switch
failing in my joystick doesn't qualify as an emergency, much less immediate
flaming death.
If it did, I would never use a joystick that cost as little as the
Infinity. My life is worth more than that.
> > If you just want to save money, buy a Thrustmaster
> > "Top Gun" computer joystick on Ebay
> > for $10 and change the push switches for $5 each.
> > Leave the hat switch,
> > it's the same as the one Infinity uses.
>
>NO it's not the same one, I know....
It may not be today, but 4 years ago I took them both apart. The hat
switches had the same part number stamped on the side.
It's not like there's another large demand elsewhere for inexpensive 4-way
hat switches shaped like that. There are the milspec switches, but they
run $50-100. http://www.ottoeng.com/control/togglemt_t4.htm. Neither
Thrustmaster or Infinity is using those.
Remember, the "toy" switches are spec'ed for 10 time the use of a milspec
switch - 1 million cycles for the toy, 100,000 for the millspec. The toy
sees more use in an hour killing space aliens than an aircraft trim switch
will see in it's lifetime.
> > The Thrustmaster grips are nice
> > because they have soft rubber inserts where you
> > grip, and come in a large and small size.
>
>Do you have any idea what the cost of injection
>molding tools are...... apparently not... The tools
>for one grip (2 halves) in good steel, will be $15K to
>$20K. The cost of those tools are included in the
>first 4K sets of "sold" sets, they aren't freebies. SO
>there is a cost of custom plastics that the end user
>is helping to pat for.
Um.... So? The point is I can get a very nice stick grip, with rubber
inserts in the side, for about $10 on Ebay. $15 if you include
shipping. Given that fact, it doesn't matter to me how much the tooling is
- I'm sure given their volumes that CH and Thrustmaster are spending a lot
more on their tooling than Jim is. If Jim has to amortize the cost of his
tooling over a smaller production run, that's his problem, not his
customer's. If there's a grip that serves the purpose, adapted from a much
larger run and therefor cheaper, the customer is the one that should make
the decision and get the benefit. Jim isn't guaranteed a profit. If
there's a better choice out there, people will take it. Welcome to the
miracle that is the free market.
Thank goodness Nippondenso makes millions of alternators per year. If we
had to pay for the development costs for alternators on a volume of 1000
homebuilt aircraft per year, they'd be $5,000 each.
> > Actually, his early grips were surplus cast
> > urethane foam he bought from Thrustmaster.
> > I know because I bought some too, and they
> > told me.
>
>I was trying to save money back then.
You were? Or Jim was? I'm confused. Are you in business with him? Or is
"Howard" Jim himself?
>I place a value on my time. I consult for $65/hr doing
>plastics design (hold several patents for my designs).
>I used to do home additions at one time in my life for
>a couple of years at $20/hr,
Everyone building a homebuilt aircraft makes a similar calculation. We
have a source of income, or we couldn't afford the expensive bits. At the
same time, we've decided that we want to do most or all of the work
ourselves, rather than paying someone else to do it.
>I won't burn my time and energy trying to save a few
>dollars, because my time is more valuable than that.
So why are you building your own airplane?
>My safety in flight is more valuable than that.
If you don't think that something you build is as safe or safer than
something you buy, why are you building your own airplane?
>If you want to use a toy to affect your safety while
>flying, that is your choice.
1) I'm not using toy switches - my grip is Milspec, from an AH-64. 2) Toy
switches are made to see a LOT of use. 3) Someone who builds or adapts
their own grip doesn't have to use toy switches, he can buy commercial or
milspec grade switches easily.
>I don't think redoing another assembly is good use of
>my time.
Then you are probably better off buying a production airplane. "Redoing
another assembly" is certainly faster than building complex parts from scratch.
>Have a nice day.
>
>Howard
And you as well.
Richard
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