REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition

Scott Derrick scott at tnstaafl.net
Tue Jul 20 10:32:14 CDT 2004 

I fly into WVI quite often, sea level airport with a 4500 ft runway.

At sea level that is more than enough. I'd be comfortable with 3000/3500
ft at sea level. Its a different airplane then at my home field of 6500 ft
elevation.

Scott

> Jack,
>
> I appreciate your informed perspective!  I really do appreciate your
> experience and advice, since I'm one of those guys who has a "not yet
> flying" Velocity.  I am trying to limit the number of changes, but I also
> need to feel comfortable with the design - after all, it's my neck!!
>
> I did recently order a Catto prop, but I'm under no illusion that it will
> be
> equivalent to a CS prop, especially in takeoff distance and air braking.
> I
> just could not get comfortable with the current options for CS propos, so
> I'm trying to keep the project moving and get other systems de-bugged
> while
> I continue to watch the CS prop market.  This will also provide me with a
> spare prop to use if and when the CS prop has to go in for overhaul or
> repair.  I'm based at an airport with a 6000-foot near-sea-level runway,
> so
> I think the takeoff performance with the fixed-pitch prop will be
> sufficient
> for the initial test flying phase.  After that, we will see!
>
> Keith Hallsten
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jack davis" <n767sd at hotmail.com>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 7:56 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition
>
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> I couldn't agree more.  I'm amazed sometimes at the amount of
> "improvements"
>> that "need" to be made to the Velocity and usually from most who don't
> even
>> have a flyable Velocity.  Although I made changes to the plans to build
>> a
>> custom aircraft to my tastes, for the most part, I stuck to the basic
> plans
>> and had a flyable aircraft in less than 3.5 years of construction.  Many
>> times I see folks furiously debating "needed" changes on something that
>> I
>> know from experience doesn't need to be changed or will make little
>> difference when all is said and done.
>>
>> I guess it all depends on what your mission profile is for the Velocity.
> If
>> you want a show queen, then there is no limit on the "needed" changes.
>> If
>> you plan on using it for serious IFR, then you really only know the
>> limitations of the design after flying it for a while in actual
> conditions.
>>
>> >From my perspective (with about 500 hours on my Velocity now) and from
>> my
>> mission profile, I wish my Velocity was super or turbocharged, had
>> de-ice,
>> and I wish I built the XL rather than the Standard.  I definitely know I
>> need a two-axis autopilot which will reduce the workload tremendously on
>> those ILS approaches to minimums.  I also know that I'm installing
>> downlinked weather for the cockpit.
>>
>> As another example, I guarantee that those folks that say they don't
>> want
> to
>> "waste" their money on a constant speed prop are going to wish they
>> didn't
>> waste money on a fixed pitch prop after they fly it for awhile.  That's
> just
>> experience talking . . . How do I know?  Because I was the same person
>> saying the same thing before my Velocity was flying.  I also had people
> with
>> flying Velocities tell me that I needed a CS prop, but I wouldn't
>> believe
>> them until I ended up spending money on a fixed pitched prop only to
>> purchase a CS later.  Did I like spending nearly $3K on a fixed pitched
> prop
>> plus $10K + on a CS?  No, but that was what was needed.  Unfortunately,
>> humans rarely heed advise from those with experience.  Those not flying
> will
>> just have to learn by doing, even if that means redoing things that
>> could
>> have been done right the first time.
>>
>> Jack
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Scott Baker" <sbakr at comcast.net>
>> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 8:12 PM
>> Subject: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Two short stories about the time it takes to build a Velocity ...
>> > #1 - A close friend and builder of his own Velocity aircraft would
>> often
>> be
>> > approached at air shows by aircraft builders who were still working on
>> their
>> > projects.  Inevitably these builders would say, "I like (a feature on
>> my
>> > friend's aircraft), but I'm gonna do (this or that - sometimes for
>> > one-upmanship, sometimes to make 'improvements') on mine".  My friend
>> > quickly grew tired of all the talk and would say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah
>> ...
>> tell
>> > me after you're done and flying.  Until then, don't bother me."  To
>> him
>> > there are "dreamers" and "doers" - and he obviously had more patience
> for
>> > folks who pushed to fulfill their dreams in the form of a finished
>> aircraft,
>> > rather than for folks who were always "dreaming" and never "doing".
>> > #2 - I was conducting a tour of the Velocity factory and Service
>> Center
>> > recently to an enthusiastic couple.  While walking between buildings
>> the
>> > husband asked, "How long does it take to complete work on a Velocity?"
> I
>> > half jokingly said, "That depends on your profession.  If you are a
> Rough
>> > Carpenter, you'll be finished within a year.  And if you're an
>> Engineer,
>> > you'll never finish because you'll spend 8-hours studying and planning
> for
>> > each 5-minute job".  You guessed it, he was an engineer.  He laughed
>> and
>> > said, "You're right ... I guess it's in the blood."
>> > There is, of course, a happy medium.  Some people enjoy the endless
>> > possibilities of making changes and "improvements".  These folks
>> should
>> not
>> > complain or get down on themselves when the job takes a long time.
>> > I've seen others who feel that they "must" make custom changes - not
>> because
>> > of a demonstrated need - or even because they "want to" - it's as if
> some
>> > unknown force is affecting them, compelling them, to make changes.
> These
>> > people become frustrated when the job takes longer than expected.
>> > I think there is a strong element of wisdom to what Lynn has to say.
>> > If the goal is to finish and fly - then get out there and do a little
>> > something every day.  If you are thinking of making changes, realize
> that
>> > this adds to the building time - and that quite often, one "little"
> change
>> > affects other areas - which then requires changes to accommodate the
> first
>> > change (domino effect).  Do yourself a favor and ask, "Is this change
>> really
>> > necessary?"
>> > If so - be true to yourself and proceed.  If not, why not save some
>> (or
> a
>> > lot) of time and "pass".  Some of the best examples of Velocity
>> workmanship
>> > involve simple, straightforward design features.  It doesn't have to
>> be
>> > complicated to be "done right".
>> > If you're a person who enjoys building - perhaps more than flying -
>> then
>> the
>> > journey is the destination.  Have fun!  And save a hot tub seat for
>> me!
>> > Scott B.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
>> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 7:01 PM
>> > Subject: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition
>> >
>> >
>> > > Greg,
>> > > I think I was about seven years into my Velocity project when I
>> began
> to
>> > > seriously doubt if I would ever finish it. I then made a few
>> decisions
>> > about
>> > > my approach to the project which I hoped would put the odds in my
> favor.
>> > One
>> > > of them was to temporarily unsubscribe myself from all aviation
> internet
>> > > forums (like this one). Another was to end any more thoughts
> concerning
>> > > "improvements" to the design. A third was to call the factory and
> speak
>> to
>> > > Scott or Duane Swing after a "reasonable" period of unsuccessfully
>> trying
>> > to
>> > > figure something out for myself (I defined "reasonable" as anything
>> in
>> > > excess of two hours.).
>> > >
>> > > Only after I had flown it about 100 hours did I begin to think of
>> > > improvements or added features. But retrofits are often tough to
>> impliment
>> > > which is a plus for minimizing downtime and maximizing flying hours.
>> > >
>> > > The result? I now have 310 hours flying a really sound airplane in
> which
>> I
>> > > have the highest confidence. To all I say "Forget the interesting
>> > > competitivness of the Reflector and GET BUILDING!" (It's all in the
>> > > instruction manual anyway.)
>> > > Lynn
>> > > ===========================================
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Greg Poole" <gpoole at zeta.org.au>
>> > > To: <alex157 at direcway.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
> list"
>> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:26 AM
>> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Re: REFLECTOR Competition
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Boy what a competitive lot of builders we have ...IVO vs MT vs
> Catto,
>> > Mags
>> > > > vs electronic ignition, Lyco power vs Sub vs GM vs rotary....
>> seems
>> > > > everybody needs to back their own MO!  Sure makes it interesting
>> for
>> us
>> > > > fence sitters!
>> > > >
>> > > > I am also on the BearHawk list (nice place but an entirely
>> different
>> > > mission
>> > > > capability/role and a '60's look) and one of the plan builders
>> there
>> was
>> > > > really letting loose on glass planes by saying how glad he was to
>> be
>> > > flying
>> > > > low and slow and using this as the basis for reasoning that this
>> was
>> the
>> > > > reason he would live a much longer and safer life based on the
>> accident
>> > > > records of fast glass such as Lancairs etc.  I pointed out the
>> lack
> of
>> > > > objectivity in his analysis and reasoning but he could not be
> swayed.
>> > > Seems
>> > > > we glass plane builders are far more ready to fly through cloud
>> and
>> > storms
>> > > > trying to outrun the weather to get home first than they that fly
> STOL
>> > > > types. Didn't occur to him that with a bit more speed, we probably
> can
>> > > give
>> > > > storm cells a wider berth and get landed and in the hangar than
> those
>> > > > bumping along at 120kts.
>> > > >
>> > > > To each his own I say....trouble is I love so many mission
>> capabilities
>> > > that
>> > > > I want one of every type!
>> > > >
>> > > > ....I'll finish my Velocity first though!
>> > > >
>> > > > Best,
>> > > >
>> > > > Greg.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Alex Balic" <alex157 at direcway.com>
>> > > > To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and
>> Builders
>
>> > list"
>> > > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
>> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 2:37 PM
>> > > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: new electronic ign.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > Jim-
>> > > > > That is exactly why mags are used on racing engines, because at
> high
>> > RPM
>> > > > > they generate a ton of power, more than an electronic unit
>> can...
>> > > problem
>> > > > is
>> > > > > at 2500 rpm, they are pretty weak. I am interested that yours
>> can
>> > throw
>> > > a
>> > > > 1"
>> > > > > spark - I don't have my formula handy, but at sea level, dry
>> air,
> I
>> > > would
>> > > > > think that it would require several thousand volts- do they use
>> a
>> > > > capacitor
>> > > > > in the high altitude units? I though that they were just better
>> > > insulated
>> > > > to
>> > > > > prevent internal arcing at altitude..... I suppose that if there
> is
>> > > enough
>> > > > > spring tension on that impulse coupler that it could simulate
>> > > momentarily,
>> > > > > several thousand RPM though........ I have been a grounding
>> source
>> for
>> > a
>> > > > > magneto in the past, it wasn't a fun experience that I want to
>> repeat,
>> > > but
>> > > > > once again, it happened when the coupler tripped, and the speed
>> could
>> > > have
>> > > > > been pretty high....
>> > > > >
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>> [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
>> > > > > Behalf Of Jim Agnew
>> > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 9:11 PM
>> > > > > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> > > > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: new electronic ign.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Scott,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I have Bendix high altitude mags on my IO-360 and if you
>> > > > > turn the prop by hand the impulse coupled mag will throw a
>> > > > > 3/4-1" spark so I doubt if .035" would bother them.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On AA Fuel dragsters the cylinders are filled with an
>> > > > > almost liquid mixture and they use mags to fire it!! and at
>> > > > > 10K+ RPM.  The problem with mags is their lack of automatic
>> > > > > spark advance that gives the electronic ignitions an
>> > > > > advantage.  They solved this in cars in the 40s so this
>> > > > > isn't exactly a new development.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > BTW it is said that the mags on those dragsters at top RPMs
>> > > > > produce a spark of 42 AMPS so if you think that mags have a
>> > > > > weak spark at high rpms you are wrong.  The mag output is
>> > > > > weak at low rpms and increases as rpms increase.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Jim
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:
>> > > > > > WHile there may be mags with a good spark, you won't find
>> > > > > > one on an
>> > > > > > airplane.   THe spark is absolutly lousy.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I gap the plugs on my one slick mag at 18, I gap my plugs
>> > > > > > on my lightspeed
>> > > > > > at 35.  Hmmm.. WHy?  Reason is the mags are so weak any
>> > > > > > larger gap will
>> > > > > > just arc across the points in the mag instead of the
>> > > > > > plug.  The lightspeed
>> > > > > > on the other hand has a very hot spark that can jum the
>> > > > > > 35 gap with ease.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I can run my engine on one mag and loose, minimum 25%
>> > > > > > power, closer to
>> > > > > > 35%, I can run on the lightspeed and loose at the most
>> > > > > > 10%, probably
>> > > > > > closer to 5%.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > WHen I do a mag check I drop 75 rpm when running on the
>> > > > > > mag, I drop less
>> > > > > > than 10 rpm when shutting the mag off.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Mags suck in all respects except one, they don't need any
>> > > > > > external power.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Mags fail all the time and have very short lives. The TBF
>> > > > > > for a well
>> > > > > > designd EI is longer than the life of the plane.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Scott
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Mags do not have a lousy spark. They need two spark
>> > > > > > plugs per cylinder
>> > > > > > > because it is too big to combust properly with only one
>> > > > > > ignition point,
>> > > > > > > especially a 540. And you need two ignition units
>> > > > > > because anything can
>> > > > > > > and will eventually fail. Electronic units fail
>> > > > > > instantly instead of
>> > > > > > > running rough like an old style mag.  bg
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > > > From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org
>> > > > > > [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org] On
>> > > > > > > Behalf Of Scott Derrick
>> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:15 AM
>> > > > > > > To: Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: new electronic ign.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >> Try and remember: you do not have two mags because
>> > > > > > they give better
>> > > > > > >> ignition that way - they give lousy ignition the day
>> > > > > > you install them,
>> > > > > > >> and go downhill from there. You have two mags because
>> > > > > > one of them is
>> > > > > > >> *certain* to fail. One electronic unit provides better
>> > > > > > ignition (saves
>> > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > While I agree that mags are much more failure prone
>> > > > > > than an EI and that
>> > > > > > > one of the reasons for two is redundency in case of
>> > > > > > failure.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Mags have a lousy spark and you will not get full power
>> > > > > > with just one.
>> > > > > > > two are required.  Even with EI's two plugs will
>> > > > > > provide a more complete
>> > > > > > > burn and more power than one.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Scott
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > > > To change your email address, visit
>> > > > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > > > > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > > > > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > > > > > Check old archives:
>> > > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > > > To change your email address, visit
>> > > > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > > > > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > > > > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > > > > > Check old archives:
>> > > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > > To change your email address, visit
>> > > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > > > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > > > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > > > > Check old archives:
>> > > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > =====
>> > > > > James F. Agnew
>> > > > > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
>> > > > > Tampa, FL
>> > > > > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > To change your email address, visit
>> > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > > > Check old archives:
>> > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > > > >
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > To change your email address, visit
>> > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > > > Check old archives:
>> > http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > To change your email address, visit
>> > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > > >
>> > > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > > Check old archives:
>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > To change your email address, visit
>> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> > >
>> > > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > > Check old archives:
> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > To change your email address, visit
>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>> >
>> > Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> > user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> > Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> > Check old archives:
>> http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>>
>> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
>> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
>> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
> user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
> Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
> Check old archives: http://www.tvbf.org/archives/velocity/maillist.html
>

More information about the Reflector mailing list