REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls

Lynn Gallup LGallup at mn.rr.com
Tue Aug 10 05:54:32 CDT 2004


Fred,
Thanks very much for the info. Next time I'm out to the hangar I'm going to
check my canard. Since I never before heard of this about the canard
trailing edge, there is a good chance mine is wrong. Also, it looks like I
am going to have to get serious about replacing my aileron tubes with steel.
I fussed with my static port dam but couldn't seem to find a satisfactory
position (probably because I am less patient than you.).  I got the idea
that maybe the people who designed the little aluminum buttons used for
static ports in certified aircraft knew what they were doing. Using a hole
saw,  I cut a disk from fiberglass about the same diameter and thickness as
those aluminum buttons. The pilot drill of the hole saw provided a
one-quarter inch hole in the center of the disk which I centered over my
static port holes. I glued it on with RTV cement. I know it is not perfect
but it is close enough to exceed the tolerance of my sloppy flying.
Regarding the aileron trim system, I put beeswax on the string and messed
around trying different springs. It's ok now but it still does not make fine
adjustments by itself. However, it does effect, more or less, the
center-point of the stick.

Regards,
Lynn

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls


>   Lynn,
>
>   Regarding my canard.  I felt the plane was flying fine but a friend of
> mine who has built several planes, amongh then a twin cozy, went out with
> me.  He flet the plane did not get enough nose up attitude on the power
off
> stall.  I was landing fine at 90 kts.  and stalling at 78 kts.  I flew up
to
> Velocity and spoke with Scott Swing and discussed my communications and
> experience.  He looked at the canard and advised me that the trailing edge
> exteded too far onto the elevator.  The trailing edge of the elevator
> according to the instructions should terminate at the cord of the elevator
> or midpoint to the anterior curvature.  We first trimmed back 1/8 of an
inch
> and reduced our stall speed considerably and was still not at the elevator
> cord position so I decided to cut back another 1/8 of an inch and make
sure
> I had a one tongue blade clearance between the underside of the trailing
> edge and the elevator.   The stall difference was fenomenal.  On a landing
> approach my friend by coincidence was watching me land and said that my
nose
> high ttitude on the approach was as it should be.  We went flying several
> weeks later and he was very satisfied.  On a power off stall with two
people
> the plane looses about 300 to 400 feet per minute.
>
>   I have aluminum rod on the keel with a 3/4" stick with the Velocity mod
> and steel rods for the ailerons and the long wings and ailerons 1' longer
> than called for in the instructions.
>
>   The longest trip I have made so far has been a 300 mile and many 200
mile
> trips I do not find that I have to fight to kep my course.  I do have a
> problem with the motor provided by Velocity for aileron trim.  I would
like
> to find a better option that the string on the pulley and bellcrank.  I
have
> not added the adhesive to the string, when I get to it maybe the string
will
> not slip.
>
>   I have also spent some time insuring my airspeed indicator is reading
> correct.  unlike most velocities I have place the damn 1/4 inch trailing
the
> static holes.  I played with several positions and found this the best.  I
> have static ports on both sides as per the instructions.  The damn is 1mm
> high.  I set my altimeter at 0 minus airport altitude plus tower altitude
> and buzzed at full power past the tower at tower altitude and adjusted
the
> position of the damn until I got a reading of 0 on the altimeter.  I now
> know that my stall speed is what it should be 70 kts with one person and
72
> kts with two on board.
>
>   Fred
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
>   To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 8:57 PM
>   Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>
>
>   > Fred,
>   > Thanks for all the good comparative info for me. I'm going to re-set
my
>   > ailerons above the trailing edge where I had them originally. (I only
> set
>   > them below the leading edge for the "self centering" experiment.)
>   >
>   > Some questions:
>   > -- What put you on to the idea that your canard trailing edge was
> extending
>   > too far aft? (The only thing I have heard of to open up the slot
between
> the
>   > canard and the elevator was to remove the cuffs on the elevator
leading
>   > edge.)
>   > -- Do you have steel or aluminum torque tubes in the wings?
>   > -- Is yours a short wing or a long wing?
>   >
>   > Your airplane is better than mine on stall. With myself and another
200
>   > pounder in the front seat I don't want to have the wheels touch below
85
>   > knots.
>   > I think your choice of longer ailerons was very smart - I wish I had
> them.
>   > On my airplane the movements to keep the airplane on course are
> certainly
>   > small and light; it's just that I have to be constantly making them
and
> on
>   > long flights this can be tiring. I have a NavAid autopilot which gives
> me
>   > some relief in wing-leveler mode but it doesn't track VORs worth a
hoot.
> And
>   > I don't know for sure if there is even a way to couple my GPS-295 to
it.
>   > Regards,
>   > Lynn
>   >
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
>   > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:35 AM
>   > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>   >
>   >
>   > >   Lynn,
>   > >
>   > >   Thanks for your communications.  The aileron rolls were done by
the
> test
>   > > pilot, Dave Manary the day the plane flew for the first time.  He
did
>   > three
>   > > or four left and right rolls.  He stated that he had no problems and
> that
>   > > the plane performed well.  I have it in my agenda to call him to go
> out
>   > and
>   > > have him teach me how to do the rolls.
>   > >
>   > >   My ailerons are one foot larger than called for in the
instructions.
>   > > Since I have never flown at length another Velocity it is difficult
> for me
>   > > to make comparisons.   My Velocity was the first complex high
> performance
>   > > plane I have flown.  I have now 60 hours in my velocity and I find,
>   > barring
>   > > my limited experience, that the plane behaves well at 90 - 80 kts.
> The
>   > > biggest problem that I had was my stall speed.  This was due to the
> fact
>   > > that the trailing edge of the canard extended too far over the
> elevator.
>   > I
>   > > had to cut it back 1/4 inch.  Now I come over the threshhold at 80
and
>   > touch
>   > > doen at 78 with two people and easily keep the nose up at touchdown.
> I do
>   > > not feel at any time that I do not have aileron control.  I hold my
> stick
>   > > with my fingers and keep a light grip making slight movements as
> needed.
>   > I
>   > > have played with my ailerons adjusting them and find that for my
taste
> 1/8
>   > > of an inch above the trailing edge of the wings gives me the
response
> I
>   > > like.  If I set them even of below the trailing edge they become too
> heavy
>   > > and slugish.
>   > >
>   > >   On your explanation for long trips and getting of course due to
> small
>   > > adjustments.  I find the aileros exptremely responsive where slight
>   > pressure
>   > > will bring about a roll.  I found the autopilot, when it was
working,
> had
>   > no
>   > > problem to keep the plane on the GPS course.  Since the movements to
> bring
>   > > about a small course change is so light, I wonder if aileron
centering
>   > > becomes an issue. It seems that aileron centering becomes an issue
> during
>   > > wide deflection of the aileron rather than small roll adjustments.
> After
>   > I
>   > > get the A/P working  I will check on this again and see who well the
>   > system
>   > > keeps it's course and report back.  On very steep bank turns tha
plane
>   > > responds quite well.  I have tighten my system so there is no play
> between
>   > > the joy stick and the keel torque tube this made a bif difference.
>   > >
>   > >   Fred
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > >   From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
>   > >   To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >   Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:21 PM
>   > >   Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   > That's why it's NOT  regarded as an acrobatic airplane.  High
> aspect
>   > >   > ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron
> area/deflection
>   > >   > result in very poor roll rates.  The result is that when you
> attempt a
>   > >   > maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you
> will
>   > >   > scoop out so hell wouldn't have it.  You can compensate by
> starting
>   > the
>   > >   > maneuver with a rising velocity vector.  I pull my nose up
sharply
>   > >   > before starting the roll.  I don't have to gain any altitude,
just
>   > >   > establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector.
> Try
>   > >   > that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher
> nose
>   > >   > attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit).  You also
might
> try
>   > >   > keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder.
> Swept
>   > >   > wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough
rudder
>   > >   > authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you
> have at
>   > >   > least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver).  Airspeed is
> your
>   > >   > friend.  It makes you roll faster  The quicker you get it done,
> the
>   > less
>   > >   > you scoop out.
>   > >   >
>   > >   > I've done a couple.  Performance was substandard so I don't do
it
> any
>   > >   > more ... Jim S.
>   > >   >
>   > >   >
>   > >   >
>   > >   > Lynn Gallup wrote:
>   > >   >
>   > >   > >Fred,
>   > >   > >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are
> always
>   > >   > >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his
>   > technique
>   > > and
>   > >   > >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might
I
>   > always
>   > > wind
>   > >   > >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the
> direction of
>   > > the
>   > >   > >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft.
> loss of
>   > >   > >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never
> been
>   > > able to
>   > >   > >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a
>   > particular
>   > > thing
>   > >   > >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing,
maybe
>   > that
>   > > makes
>   > >   > >a difference.)
>   > >   > >Thanks,
>   > >   > >Lynn
>   > >   > >
>   > >   > >----- Original Message ----- 
>   > >   > >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
>   > >   > >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and
> Builders
>   > > list"
>   > >   > ><reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >   > >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
>   > >   > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>   > >   > >
>   > >   > >
>   > >   > >
>   > >   > >
>   > >   > >>  What am I missing.  We have done aileron rolls with N244FM
the
>   > plane
>   > >   > >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except
my
>   > tubes
>   > > are
>   > >   > >>steel rather than the aluminum.
>   > >   > >>
>   > >   > >>  Fred
>   > >   > >>
>   > >   > >>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > >   > >>  From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
>   > >   > >>  To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>   > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >   > >>  Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
>   > >   > >>  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>   > >   > >>
>   > >   > >>
>   > >   > >>  > Ronnie,
>   > >   > >>  >
>   > >   > >>  > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
>   > >   > >>  > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
>   > >   > >>  > the aileron.  When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
>   > >   > >>  > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high
and
>   > >   > >>  > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
>   > >   > >>  > than moving the aileron.
>   > >   > >>  >
>   > >   > >>  > Jim
>   > >   > >>  > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
>   > >   > >>  >
>   > >   > >>  > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
>   > >   > >>  > > job of returning to
>   > >   > >>  > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a
turn.
>   > >   > >>  > >  In fact, if you
>   > >   > >>  > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
>   > >   > >>  > > even steeper.
>   > >   > >>  > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
>   > >   > >>  > > that is desirable in
>   > >   > >>  > > a certified airplane.
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
>   > >   > >>  > > dihedral effect.
>   > >   > >>  > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
>   > >   > >>  > > do this, although I
>   > >   > >>  > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG.  You
>   > >   > >>  > > wouldn't think the Velo
>   > >   > >>  > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
>   > >   > >>  > > under its wings - the
>   > >   > >>  > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out.  I guess
>   > >   > >>  > > the swept wings
>   > >   > >>  > > causes the dihedral effect.  I love the way mine flies,
>   > >   > >>  > > very stable for
>   > >   > >>  > > cross country and IFR.  And it handles well at low
speed,
>   > >   > >>  > > on final.  Just
>   > >   > >>  > > lands fast like a canard.  Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
>   > >   > >>  > > sounds scary.  That
>   > >   > >>  > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect.  Are you
>   > >   > >>  > > saying that your
>   > >   > >>  > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
>   > >   > >>  > > Sounds like
>   > >   > >>  > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron
control
>   > >   > >>  > > linkages?
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
>   > >   > >>  > > near the aileron end.
>   > >   > >>  > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they
see
>   > >   > >>  > > with the "off
>   > >   > >>  > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement.  I can't see
>   > >   > >>  > > that it matters where
>   > >   > >>  > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
>   > >   > >>  > > line.  As long as
>   > >   > >>  > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
>   > >   > >>  > > to the aileron bell
>   > >   > >>  > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
>   > >   > >>  > > "wrap-up" that you
>   > >   > >>  > > mention.
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > Ronnie
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>   > >   > >>  > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
>   > >   > >>  > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>   > >   > >>  > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >   > >>  > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
>   > >   > >>  > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > >
>   > >   > >>  > > | Velo-people,
>   > >   > >>  > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
>   > >   > >>  > > stiffness". This really
>   > >   > >>  > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
>   > >   > >>  > > following a turn than
>   > >   > >>  > > | to stiffness per se.  On my airplane I thought the
>   > >   > >>  > > ailerons displayed
>   > >   > >>  > > almost
>   > >   > >>  > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
>   > >   > >>  > > stiffness or friction
>   > >   > >>  > > | in the system.
>   > >   > >>  > > |
>   > >   > >>  > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control
seemed
>   > >   > >>  > > fairly smooth and
>   > >   > >>  > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
>   > >   > >>  > > "stiffness and
>   > >   > >>  > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
>   > >   > >>  > > that there might be
>   > >   > >>  > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
>   > >   > >>  > > possibly, to bending
>   > >   > >>  > > of
>   > >   > >>  > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
>   > >   > >>  > > at the center of
>   > >   > >>  > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted
the
>   > >   > >>  > > ailerons so they
>   > >   > >>  > > had
>   > >   > >>  > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
>   > >   > >>  > > torque-load the
>   > >   > >>  > > system
>   > >   > >>  > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
>   > >   > >>  > > different. I have now flown
>   > >   > >>  > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
>   > >   > >>  > > put it through it's
>   > >   > >>  > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
>   > >   > >>  > > but not enough.
>   > >   > >>  > > |
>   > >   > >>  > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
>   > >   > >>  > > second-order fix, good enough
>   > >   > >>  > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
>   > >   > >>  > > really don't want to
>   > >   > >>  > > | increase the droop;  I might break something - Like my
>   > >   > >>  > > head. So I am now
>   > >   > >>  > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
>   > >   > >>  > > aileron torque tubes
>   > >   > >>  > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints
where
>   > >   > >>  > > the tubes attach
>   > >   > >>  > > to
>   > >   > >>  > > | the ailerons.
>   > >   > >>  > > |
>   > >   > >>  > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of
these
>   > >   > >>  > > ideas?
>   > >   > >>  > > |
>   > >   > >>  > > | Regards,
>   > >   > >>  > > | Lynn
>   > >   > >>  > > |
>   > >   > >>  > > | _______________________________________________
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>   > >   > >>  >
>   > >   > >>  >
>   > >   > >>  > =====
>   > >   > >>  > James F. Agnew
>   > >   > >>  > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
>   > >   > >>  > Tampa, FL
>   > >   > >>  > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
>   > >   > >>  > _______________________________________________
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>   > >   > >>
>   > >   > >>
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