REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
Laurence Coen
lwcoen at hotmail.com
Mon Aug 9 10:17:12 CDT 2004
Lynn,
You can get a "Smart Coupler" for $250 that will allow your GPS to control
your NavAid. See www.porcine.com .
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> Fred,
> Thanks for all the good comparative info for me. I'm going to re-set my
> ailerons above the trailing edge where I had them originally. (I only set
> them below the leading edge for the "self centering" experiment.)
>
> Some questions:
> -- What put you on to the idea that your canard trailing edge was
extending
> too far aft? (The only thing I have heard of to open up the slot between
the
> canard and the elevator was to remove the cuffs on the elevator leading
> edge.)
> -- Do you have steel or aluminum torque tubes in the wings?
> -- Is yours a short wing or a long wing?
>
> Your airplane is better than mine on stall. With myself and another 200
> pounder in the front seat I don't want to have the wheels touch below 85
> knots.
> I think your choice of longer ailerons was very smart - I wish I had them.
> On my airplane the movements to keep the airplane on course are certainly
> small and light; it's just that I have to be constantly making them and on
> long flights this can be tiring. I have a NavAid autopilot which gives me
> some relief in wing-leveler mode but it doesn't track VORs worth a hoot.
And
> I don't know for sure if there is even a way to couple my GPS-295 to it.
> Regards,
> Lynn
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>
>
> > Lynn,
> >
> > Thanks for your communications. The aileron rolls were done by the
test
> > pilot, Dave Manary the day the plane flew for the first time. He did
> three
> > or four left and right rolls. He stated that he had no problems and
that
> > the plane performed well. I have it in my agenda to call him to go out
> and
> > have him teach me how to do the rolls.
> >
> > My ailerons are one foot larger than called for in the instructions.
> > Since I have never flown at length another Velocity it is difficult for
me
> > to make comparisons. My Velocity was the first complex high
performance
> > plane I have flown. I have now 60 hours in my velocity and I find,
> barring
> > my limited experience, that the plane behaves well at 90 - 80 kts. The
> > biggest problem that I had was my stall speed. This was due to the fact
> > that the trailing edge of the canard extended too far over the elevator.
> I
> > had to cut it back 1/4 inch. Now I come over the threshhold at 80 and
> touch
> > doen at 78 with two people and easily keep the nose up at touchdown. I
do
> > not feel at any time that I do not have aileron control. I hold my
stick
> > with my fingers and keep a light grip making slight movements as needed.
> I
> > have played with my ailerons adjusting them and find that for my taste
1/8
> > of an inch above the trailing edge of the wings gives me the response I
> > like. If I set them even of below the trailing edge they become too
heavy
> > and slugish.
> >
> > On your explanation for long trips and getting of course due to small
> > adjustments. I find the aileros exptremely responsive where slight
> pressure
> > will bring about a roll. I found the autopilot, when it was working,
had
> no
> > problem to keep the plane on the GPS course. Since the movements to
bring
> > about a small course change is so light, I wonder if aileron centering
> > becomes an issue. It seems that aileron centering becomes an issue
during
> > wide deflection of the aileron rather than small roll adjustments.
After
> I
> > get the A/P working I will check on this again and see who well the
> system
> > keeps it's course and report back. On very steep bank turns tha plane
> > responds quite well. I have tighten my system so there is no play
between
> > the joy stick and the keel torque tube this made a bif difference.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> >
> >
> > > That's why it's NOT regarded as an acrobatic airplane. High aspect
> > > ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron
area/deflection
> > > result in very poor roll rates. The result is that when you attempt
a
> > > maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you will
> > > scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You can compensate by starting
> the
> > > maneuver with a rising velocity vector. I pull my nose up sharply
> > > before starting the roll. I don't have to gain any altitude, just
> > > establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector. Try
> > > that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher nose
> > > attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit). You also might
try
> > > keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder.
Swept
> > > wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
> > > authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you have
at
> > > least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver). Airspeed is
your
> > > friend. It makes you roll faster The quicker you get it done, the
> less
> > > you scoop out.
> > >
> > > I've done a couple. Performance was substandard so I don't do it
any
> > > more ... Jim S.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lynn Gallup wrote:
> > >
> > > >Fred,
> > > >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are
always
> > > >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his
> technique
> > and
> > > >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I
> always
> > wind
> > > >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the direction
of
> > the
> > > >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft. loss
of
> > > >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never been
> > able to
> > > >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a
> particular
> > thing
> > > >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing, maybe
> that
> > makes
> > > >a difference.)
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Lynn
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> > > >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
> > list"
> > > ><reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> What am I missing. We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the
> plane
> > > >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my
> tubes
> > are
> > > >>steel rather than the aluminum.
> > > >>
> > > >> Fred
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
> > > >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > Ronnie,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> > > >> > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
> > > >> > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
> > > >> > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
> > > >> > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
> > > >> > than moving the aileron.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Jim
> > > >> > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
> > > >> > > job of returning to
> > > >> > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
> > > >> > > In fact, if you
> > > >> > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
> > > >> > > even steeper.
> > > >> > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
> > > >> > > that is desirable in
> > > >> > > a certified airplane.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
> > > >> > > dihedral effect.
> > > >> > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
> > > >> > > do this, although I
> > > >> > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
> > > >> > > wouldn't think the Velo
> > > >> > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> > > >> > > under its wings - the
> > > >> > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
> > > >> > > the swept wings
> > > >> > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
> > > >> > > very stable for
> > > >> > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed,
> > > >> > > on final. Just
> > > >> > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> > > >> > > sounds scary. That
> > > >> > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
> > > >> > > saying that your
> > > >> > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
> > > >> > > Sounds like
> > > >> > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
> > > >> > > linkages?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
> > > >> > > near the aileron end.
> > > >> > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
> > > >> > > with the "off
> > > >> > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
> > > >> > > that it matters where
> > > >> > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
> > > >> > > line. As long as
> > > >> > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
> > > >> > > to the aileron bell
> > > >> > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
> > > >> > > "wrap-up" that you
> > > >> > > mention.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Ronnie
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> > > >> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > > >> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> > > >> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > | Velo-people,
> > > >> > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> > > >> > > stiffness". This really
> > > >> > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
> > > >> > > following a turn than
> > > >> > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
> > > >> > > ailerons displayed
> > > >> > > almost
> > > >> > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
> > > >> > > stiffness or friction
> > > >> > > | in the system.
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
> > > >> > > fairly smooth and
> > > >> > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
> > > >> > > "stiffness and
> > > >> > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
> > > >> > > that there might be
> > > >> > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
> > > >> > > possibly, to bending
> > > >> > > of
> > > >> > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
> > > >> > > at the center of
> > > >> > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
> > > >> > > ailerons so they
> > > >> > > had
> > > >> > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
> > > >> > > torque-load the
> > > >> > > system
> > > >> > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> > > >> > > different. I have now flown
> > > >> > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
> > > >> > > put it through it's
> > > >> > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
> > > >> > > but not enough.
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> > > >> > > second-order fix, good enough
> > > >> > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> > > >> > > really don't want to
> > > >> > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my
> > > >> > > head. So I am now
> > > >> > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
> > > >> > > aileron torque tubes
> > > >> > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
> > > >> > > the tubes attach
> > > >> > > to
> > > >> > > | the ailerons.
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
> > > >> > > ideas?
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | Regards,
> > > >> > > | Lynn
> > > >> > > |
> > > >> > > | _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > | To change your email address, visit
> > > >> > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> > > >> > > |
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> > > >> > > | Check old archives:
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> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > To change your email address, visit
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> > > >> > >
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> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > =====
> > > >> > James F. Agnew
> > > >> > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> > > >> > Tampa, FL
> > > >> > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> > > >> > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > To change your email address, visit
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> > > >> >
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> > > >> > Check old archives:
> > > >>
> > > >>
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > >>To change your email address, visit
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >>Check old archives:
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> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > > Check old archives:
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> >
> >
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>
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>
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