REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
Lynn Gallup
LGallup at mn.rr.com
Sun Aug 8 19:57:30 CDT 2004
Fred,
Thanks for all the good comparative info for me. I'm going to re-set my
ailerons above the trailing edge where I had them originally. (I only set
them below the leading edge for the "self centering" experiment.)
Some questions:
-- What put you on to the idea that your canard trailing edge was extending
too far aft? (The only thing I have heard of to open up the slot between the
canard and the elevator was to remove the cuffs on the elevator leading
edge.)
-- Do you have steel or aluminum torque tubes in the wings?
-- Is yours a short wing or a long wing?
Your airplane is better than mine on stall. With myself and another 200
pounder in the front seat I don't want to have the wheels touch below 85
knots.
I think your choice of longer ailerons was very smart - I wish I had them.
On my airplane the movements to keep the airplane on course are certainly
small and light; it's just that I have to be constantly making them and on
long flights this can be tiring. I have a NavAid autopilot which gives me
some relief in wing-leveler mode but it doesn't track VORs worth a hoot. And
I don't know for sure if there is even a way to couple my GPS-295 to it.
Regards,
Lynn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> Lynn,
>
> Thanks for your communications. The aileron rolls were done by the test
> pilot, Dave Manary the day the plane flew for the first time. He did
three
> or four left and right rolls. He stated that he had no problems and that
> the plane performed well. I have it in my agenda to call him to go out
and
> have him teach me how to do the rolls.
>
> My ailerons are one foot larger than called for in the instructions.
> Since I have never flown at length another Velocity it is difficult for me
> to make comparisons. My Velocity was the first complex high performance
> plane I have flown. I have now 60 hours in my velocity and I find,
barring
> my limited experience, that the plane behaves well at 90 - 80 kts. The
> biggest problem that I had was my stall speed. This was due to the fact
> that the trailing edge of the canard extended too far over the elevator.
I
> had to cut it back 1/4 inch. Now I come over the threshhold at 80 and
touch
> doen at 78 with two people and easily keep the nose up at touchdown. I do
> not feel at any time that I do not have aileron control. I hold my stick
> with my fingers and keep a light grip making slight movements as needed.
I
> have played with my ailerons adjusting them and find that for my taste 1/8
> of an inch above the trailing edge of the wings gives me the response I
> like. If I set them even of below the trailing edge they become too heavy
> and slugish.
>
> On your explanation for long trips and getting of course due to small
> adjustments. I find the aileros exptremely responsive where slight
pressure
> will bring about a roll. I found the autopilot, when it was working, had
no
> problem to keep the plane on the GPS course. Since the movements to bring
> about a small course change is so light, I wonder if aileron centering
> becomes an issue. It seems that aileron centering becomes an issue during
> wide deflection of the aileron rather than small roll adjustments. After
I
> get the A/P working I will check on this again and see who well the
system
> keeps it's course and report back. On very steep bank turns tha plane
> responds quite well. I have tighten my system so there is no play between
> the joy stick and the keel torque tube this made a bif difference.
>
> Fred
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>
>
> > That's why it's NOT regarded as an acrobatic airplane. High aspect
> > ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron area/deflection
> > result in very poor roll rates. The result is that when you attempt a
> > maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you will
> > scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You can compensate by starting
the
> > maneuver with a rising velocity vector. I pull my nose up sharply
> > before starting the roll. I don't have to gain any altitude, just
> > establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector. Try
> > that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher nose
> > attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit). You also might try
> > keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder. Swept
> > wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
> > authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you have at
> > least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver). Airspeed is your
> > friend. It makes you roll faster The quicker you get it done, the
less
> > you scoop out.
> >
> > I've done a couple. Performance was substandard so I don't do it any
> > more ... Jim S.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn Gallup wrote:
> >
> > >Fred,
> > >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are always
> > >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his
technique
> and
> > >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I
always
> wind
> > >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the direction of
> the
> > >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft. loss of
> > >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never been
> able to
> > >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a
particular
> thing
> > >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing, maybe
that
> makes
> > >a difference.)
> > >Thanks,
> > >Lynn
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> > >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
> list"
> > ><reflector at tvbf.org>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
> > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> What am I missing. We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the
plane
> > >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my
tubes
> are
> > >>steel rather than the aluminum.
> > >>
> > >> Fred
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
> > >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Ronnie,
> > >> >
> > >> > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> > >> > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
> > >> > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
> > >> > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
> > >> > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
> > >> > than moving the aileron.
> > >> >
> > >> > Jim
> > >> > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
> > >> > > job of returning to
> > >> > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
> > >> > > In fact, if you
> > >> > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
> > >> > > even steeper.
> > >> > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
> > >> > > that is desirable in
> > >> > > a certified airplane.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
> > >> > > dihedral effect.
> > >> > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
> > >> > > do this, although I
> > >> > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
> > >> > > wouldn't think the Velo
> > >> > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> > >> > > under its wings - the
> > >> > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
> > >> > > the swept wings
> > >> > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
> > >> > > very stable for
> > >> > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed,
> > >> > > on final. Just
> > >> > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> > >> > > sounds scary. That
> > >> > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
> > >> > > saying that your
> > >> > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
> > >> > > Sounds like
> > >> > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
> > >> > > linkages?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
> > >> > > near the aileron end.
> > >> > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
> > >> > > with the "off
> > >> > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
> > >> > > that it matters where
> > >> > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
> > >> > > line. As long as
> > >> > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
> > >> > > to the aileron bell
> > >> > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
> > >> > > "wrap-up" that you
> > >> > > mention.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Ronnie
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> > >> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > >> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> > >> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > | Velo-people,
> > >> > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> > >> > > stiffness". This really
> > >> > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
> > >> > > following a turn than
> > >> > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
> > >> > > ailerons displayed
> > >> > > almost
> > >> > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
> > >> > > stiffness or friction
> > >> > > | in the system.
> > >> > > |
> > >> > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
> > >> > > fairly smooth and
> > >> > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
> > >> > > "stiffness and
> > >> > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
> > >> > > that there might be
> > >> > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
> > >> > > possibly, to bending
> > >> > > of
> > >> > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
> > >> > > at the center of
> > >> > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
> > >> > > ailerons so they
> > >> > > had
> > >> > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
> > >> > > torque-load the
> > >> > > system
> > >> > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> > >> > > different. I have now flown
> > >> > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
> > >> > > put it through it's
> > >> > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
> > >> > > but not enough.
> > >> > > |
> > >> > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> > >> > > second-order fix, good enough
> > >> > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> > >> > > really don't want to
> > >> > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my
> > >> > > head. So I am now
> > >> > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
> > >> > > aileron torque tubes
> > >> > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
> > >> > > the tubes attach
> > >> > > to
> > >> > > | the ailerons.
> > >> > > |
> > >> > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
> > >> > > ideas?
> > >> > > |
> > >> > > | Regards,
> > >> > > | Lynn
> > >> > > |
> > >> > > | _______________________________________________
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> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > =====
> > >> > James F. Agnew
> > >> > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> > >> > Tampa, FL
> > >> > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
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