REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls

Lynn Gallup LGallup at mn.rr.com
Sun Aug 8 19:57:30 CDT 2004


Fred,
Thanks for all the good comparative info for me. I'm going to re-set my
ailerons above the trailing edge where I had them originally. (I only set
them below the leading edge for the "self centering" experiment.)

Some questions:
-- What put you on to the idea that your canard trailing edge was extending
too far aft? (The only thing I have heard of to open up the slot between the
canard and the elevator was to remove the cuffs on the elevator leading
edge.)
-- Do you have steel or aluminum torque tubes in the wings?
-- Is yours a short wing or a long wing?

Your airplane is better than mine on stall. With myself and another 200
pounder in the front seat I don't want to have the wheels touch below 85
knots.
I think your choice of longer ailerons was very smart - I wish I had them.
On my airplane the movements to keep the airplane on course are certainly
small and light; it's just that I have to be constantly making them and on
long flights this can be tiring. I have a NavAid autopilot which gives me
some relief in wing-leveler mode but it doesn't track VORs worth a hoot. And
I don't know for sure if there is even a way to couple my GPS-295 to it.
Regards,
Lynn


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls


>   Lynn,
>
>   Thanks for your communications.  The aileron rolls were done by the test
> pilot, Dave Manary the day the plane flew for the first time.  He did
three
> or four left and right rolls.  He stated that he had no problems and that
> the plane performed well.  I have it in my agenda to call him to go out
and
> have him teach me how to do the rolls.
>
>   My ailerons are one foot larger than called for in the instructions.
> Since I have never flown at length another Velocity it is difficult for me
> to make comparisons.   My Velocity was the first complex high performance
> plane I have flown.  I have now 60 hours in my velocity and I find,
barring
> my limited experience, that the plane behaves well at 90 - 80 kts.  The
> biggest problem that I had was my stall speed.  This was due to the fact
> that the trailing edge of the canard extended too far over the elevator.
I
> had to cut it back 1/4 inch.  Now I come over the threshhold at 80 and
touch
> doen at 78 with two people and easily keep the nose up at touchdown.  I do
> not feel at any time that I do not have aileron control.  I hold my stick
> with my fingers and keep a light grip making slight movements as needed.
I
> have played with my ailerons adjusting them and find that for my taste 1/8
> of an inch above the trailing edge of the wings gives me the response I
> like.  If I set them even of below the trailing edge they become too heavy
> and slugish.
>
>   On your explanation for long trips and getting of course due to small
> adjustments.  I find the aileros exptremely responsive where slight
pressure
> will bring about a roll.  I found the autopilot, when it was working, had
no
> problem to keep the plane on the GPS course.  Since the movements to bring
> about a small course change is so light, I wonder if aileron centering
> becomes an issue. It seems that aileron centering becomes an issue during
> wide deflection of the aileron rather than small roll adjustments.  After
I
> get the A/P working  I will check on this again and see who well the
system
> keeps it's course and report back.  On very steep bank turns tha plane
> responds quite well.  I have tighten my system so there is no play between
> the joy stick and the keel torque tube this made a bif difference.
>
>   Fred
>
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
>   To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:21 PM
>   Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
>
>
>   > That's why it's NOT  regarded as an acrobatic airplane.  High aspect
>   > ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron area/deflection
>   > result in very poor roll rates.  The result is that when you attempt a
>   > maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you will
>   > scoop out so hell wouldn't have it.  You can compensate by starting
the
>   > maneuver with a rising velocity vector.  I pull my nose up sharply
>   > before starting the roll.  I don't have to gain any altitude, just
>   > establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector.  Try
>   > that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher nose
>   > attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit).  You also might try
>   > keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder.  Swept
>   > wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
>   > authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you have at
>   > least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver).  Airspeed is your
>   > friend.  It makes you roll faster  The quicker you get it done, the
less
>   > you scoop out.
>   >
>   > I've done a couple.  Performance was substandard so I don't do it any
>   > more ... Jim S.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Lynn Gallup wrote:
>   >
>   > >Fred,
>   > >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are always
>   > >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his
technique
> and
>   > >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I
always
> wind
>   > >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the direction of
> the
>   > >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft. loss of
>   > >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never been
> able to
>   > >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a
particular
> thing
>   > >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing,  maybe
that
> makes
>   > >a difference.)
>   > >Thanks,
>   > >Lynn
>   > >
>   > >----- Original Message ----- 
>   > >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
>   > >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
> list"
>   > ><reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
>   > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >>  What am I missing.  We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the
plane
>   > >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my
tubes
> are
>   > >>steel rather than the aluminum.
>   > >>
>   > >>  Fred
>   > >>
>   > >>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > >>  From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
>   > >>  To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >>  Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
>   > >>  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>   > >>
>   > >>
>   > >>  > Ronnie,
>   > >>  >
>   > >>  > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
>   > >>  > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
>   > >>  > the aileron.  When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
>   > >>  > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
>   > >>  > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
>   > >>  > than moving the aileron.
>   > >>  >
>   > >>  > Jim
>   > >>  > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
>   > >>  >
>   > >>  > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
>   > >>  > > job of returning to
>   > >>  > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
>   > >>  > >  In fact, if you
>   > >>  > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
>   > >>  > > even steeper.
>   > >>  > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
>   > >>  > > that is desirable in
>   > >>  > > a certified airplane.
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
>   > >>  > > dihedral effect.
>   > >>  > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
>   > >>  > > do this, although I
>   > >>  > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG.  You
>   > >>  > > wouldn't think the Velo
>   > >>  > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
>   > >>  > > under its wings - the
>   > >>  > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out.  I guess
>   > >>  > > the swept wings
>   > >>  > > causes the dihedral effect.  I love the way mine flies,
>   > >>  > > very stable for
>   > >>  > > cross country and IFR.  And it handles well at low speed,
>   > >>  > > on final.  Just
>   > >>  > > lands fast like a canard.  Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
>   > >>  > > sounds scary.  That
>   > >>  > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect.  Are you
>   > >>  > > saying that your
>   > >>  > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
>   > >>  > > Sounds like
>   > >>  > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
>   > >>  > > linkages?
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
>   > >>  > > near the aileron end.
>   > >>  > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
>   > >>  > > with the "off
>   > >>  > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement.  I can't see
>   > >>  > > that it matters where
>   > >>  > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
>   > >>  > > line.  As long as
>   > >>  > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
>   > >>  > > to the aileron bell
>   > >>  > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
>   > >>  > > "wrap-up" that you
>   > >>  > > mention.
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > Ronnie
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > ----- Original Message -----
>   > >>  > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
>   > >>  > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
>   > >>  > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
>   > >>  > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
>   > >>  > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > >
>   > >>  > > | Velo-people,
>   > >>  > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
>   > >>  > > stiffness". This really
>   > >>  > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
>   > >>  > > following a turn than
>   > >>  > > | to stiffness per se.  On my airplane I thought the
>   > >>  > > ailerons displayed
>   > >>  > > almost
>   > >>  > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
>   > >>  > > stiffness or friction
>   > >>  > > | in the system.
>   > >>  > > |
>   > >>  > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
>   > >>  > > fairly smooth and
>   > >>  > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
>   > >>  > > "stiffness and
>   > >>  > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
>   > >>  > > that there might be
>   > >>  > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
>   > >>  > > possibly, to bending
>   > >>  > > of
>   > >>  > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
>   > >>  > > at the center of
>   > >>  > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
>   > >>  > > ailerons so they
>   > >>  > > had
>   > >>  > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
>   > >>  > > torque-load the
>   > >>  > > system
>   > >>  > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
>   > >>  > > different. I have now flown
>   > >>  > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
>   > >>  > > put it through it's
>   > >>  > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
>   > >>  > > but not enough.
>   > >>  > > |
>   > >>  > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
>   > >>  > > second-order fix, good enough
>   > >>  > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
>   > >>  > > really don't want to
>   > >>  > > | increase the droop;  I might break something - Like my
>   > >>  > > head. So I am now
>   > >>  > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
>   > >>  > > aileron torque tubes
>   > >>  > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
>   > >>  > > the tubes attach
>   > >>  > > to
>   > >>  > > | the ailerons.
>   > >>  > > |
>   > >>  > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
>   > >>  > > ideas?
>   > >>  > > |
>   > >>  > > | Regards,
>   > >>  > > | Lynn
>   > >>  > > |
>   > >>  > > | _______________________________________________
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>   > >>  >
>   > >>  >
>   > >>  > =====
>   > >>  > James F. Agnew
>   > >>  > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
>   > >>  > Tampa, FL
>   > >>  > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
>   > >>  > _______________________________________________
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>   > >>  >
>   > >>
>   > >>
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