REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
Fred Marconi
fmarconi at bellsouth.net
Sun Aug 8 10:35:01 CDT 2004
Lynn,
Thanks for your communications. The aileron rolls were done by the test
pilot, Dave Manary the day the plane flew for the first time. He did three
or four left and right rolls. He stated that he had no problems and that
the plane performed well. I have it in my agenda to call him to go out and
have him teach me how to do the rolls.
My ailerons are one foot larger than called for in the instructions.
Since I have never flown at length another Velocity it is difficult for me
to make comparisons. My Velocity was the first complex high performance
plane I have flown. I have now 60 hours in my velocity and I find, barring
my limited experience, that the plane behaves well at 90 - 80 kts. The
biggest problem that I had was my stall speed. This was due to the fact
that the trailing edge of the canard extended too far over the elevator. I
had to cut it back 1/4 inch. Now I come over the threshhold at 80 and touch
doen at 78 with two people and easily keep the nose up at touchdown. I do
not feel at any time that I do not have aileron control. I hold my stick
with my fingers and keep a light grip making slight movements as needed. I
have played with my ailerons adjusting them and find that for my taste 1/8
of an inch above the trailing edge of the wings gives me the response I
like. If I set them even of below the trailing edge they become too heavy
and slugish.
On your explanation for long trips and getting of course due to small
adjustments. I find the aileros exptremely responsive where slight pressure
will bring about a roll. I found the autopilot, when it was working, had no
problem to keep the plane on the GPS course. Since the movements to bring
about a small course change is so light, I wonder if aileron centering
becomes an issue. It seems that aileron centering becomes an issue during
wide deflection of the aileron rather than small roll adjustments. After I
get the A/P working I will check on this again and see who well the system
keeps it's course and report back. On very steep bank turns tha plane
responds quite well. I have tighten my system so there is no play between
the joy stick and the keel torque tube this made a bif difference.
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> That's why it's NOT regarded as an acrobatic airplane. High aspect
> ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron area/deflection
> result in very poor roll rates. The result is that when you attempt a
> maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you will
> scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You can compensate by starting the
> maneuver with a rising velocity vector. I pull my nose up sharply
> before starting the roll. I don't have to gain any altitude, just
> establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector. Try
> that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher nose
> attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit). You also might try
> keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder. Swept
> wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
> authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you have at
> least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver). Airspeed is your
> friend. It makes you roll faster The quicker you get it done, the less
> you scoop out.
>
> I've done a couple. Performance was substandard so I don't do it any
> more ... Jim S.
>
>
>
> Lynn Gallup wrote:
>
> >Fred,
> >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are always
> >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his technique
and
> >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I always
wind
> >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the direction of
the
> >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft. loss of
> >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never been
able to
> >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a particular
thing
> >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing, maybe that
makes
> >a difference.)
> >Thanks,
> >Lynn
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders
list"
> ><reflector at tvbf.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
> >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> What am I missing. We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the plane
> >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my tubes
are
> >>steel rather than the aluminum.
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
<reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ronnie,
> >> >
> >> > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> >> > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
> >> > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
> >> > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
> >> > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
> >> > than moving the aileron.
> >> >
> >> > Jim
> >> > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> >> > >
> >> > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
> >> > > job of returning to
> >> > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
> >> > > In fact, if you
> >> > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
> >> > > even steeper.
> >> > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
> >> > > that is desirable in
> >> > > a certified airplane.
> >> > >
> >> > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
> >> > > dihedral effect.
> >> > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
> >> > > do this, although I
> >> > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
> >> > > wouldn't think the Velo
> >> > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> >> > > under its wings - the
> >> > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
> >> > > the swept wings
> >> > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
> >> > > very stable for
> >> > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed,
> >> > > on final. Just
> >> > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
> >> > >
> >> > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> >> > > sounds scary. That
> >> > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
> >> > > saying that your
> >> > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
> >> > > Sounds like
> >> > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
> >> > > linkages?
> >> > >
> >> > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
> >> > > near the aileron end.
> >> > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
> >> > > with the "off
> >> > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
> >> > > that it matters where
> >> > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
> >> > > line. As long as
> >> > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
> >> > > to the aileron bell
> >> > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
> >> > > "wrap-up" that you
> >> > > mention.
> >> > >
> >> > > Ronnie
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> >> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> >> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > | Velo-people,
> >> > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> >> > > stiffness". This really
> >> > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
> >> > > following a turn than
> >> > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
> >> > > ailerons displayed
> >> > > almost
> >> > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
> >> > > stiffness or friction
> >> > > | in the system.
> >> > > |
> >> > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
> >> > > fairly smooth and
> >> > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
> >> > > "stiffness and
> >> > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
> >> > > that there might be
> >> > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
> >> > > possibly, to bending
> >> > > of
> >> > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
> >> > > at the center of
> >> > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
> >> > > ailerons so they
> >> > > had
> >> > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
> >> > > torque-load the
> >> > > system
> >> > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> >> > > different. I have now flown
> >> > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
> >> > > put it through it's
> >> > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
> >> > > but not enough.
> >> > > |
> >> > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> >> > > second-order fix, good enough
> >> > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> >> > > really don't want to
> >> > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my
> >> > > head. So I am now
> >> > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
> >> > > aileron torque tubes
> >> > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
> >> > > the tubes attach
> >> > > to
> >> > > | the ailerons.
> >> > > |
> >> > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
> >> > > ideas?
> >> > > |
> >> > > | Regards,
> >> > > | Lynn
> >> > > |
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> > =====
> >> > James F. Agnew
> >> > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> >> > Tampa, FL
> >> > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
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