REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
Lynn Gallup
LGallup at mn.rr.com
Sat Aug 7 21:03:40 CDT 2004
Thanks Jim,
I'm going to try a few with your recomendations but I have the feeling I
will end up with the same opinion as you. I think that what keeps me
challenged with this, though, is the fact that I have been up with Kirk
Lindberg in his Velocity (a short wing) on two occasions and he has
performed them perfectly so far as I could tell. That's why I think the
problem might be with the long wing version, if the problem isn't me. Maybe
someday I will ask him if he would try it in my airplane.
Regards,
Lynn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sower" <canarder at frontiernet.net>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron Rolls
> That's why it's NOT regarded as an acrobatic airplane. High aspect
> ratio wings like ours with less-than-stunning aileron area/deflection
> result in very poor roll rates. The result is that when you attempt a
> maneuver that requires lots of roll (like an aileron roll) you will
> scoop out so hell wouldn't have it. You can compensate by starting the
> maneuver with a rising velocity vector. I pull my nose up sharply
> before starting the roll. I don't have to gain any altitude, just
> establish a significant upward component of my velocity vector. Try
> that a couple of times (starting with higher airspeeds, higher nose
> attitude, and reducing nose up as results permit). You also might try
> keeping some G on the airplane and kicking in a lot of rudder. Swept
> wings tend to enhance roll-yaw coupling if you have enough rudder
> authority (Velocitys typically don't have much so check if you have at
> least 3.5" - 4" rudder available for the maneuver). Airspeed is your
> friend. It makes you roll faster The quicker you get it done, the less
> you scoop out.
>
> I've done a couple. Performance was substandard so I don't do it any
> more ... Jim S.
>
>
>
> Lynn Gallup wrote:
>
> >Fred,
> >I have practiced aileron rolls about twenty times and they are always
> >terrible. I have talked to Scott Swing by phone to learn his technique
and
> >to one other Velocity owner, Kirk Lindberg. But try as I might I always
wind
> >up in a dive to one side or the other depending upon the direction of the
> >roll. I have never accomplished a roll with less than 800 ft. loss of
> >altitude except once I did it with 500 ft. loss but have never been able
to
> >duplicate it. When you were learning to do them was there a particular
thing
> >which stands out as as the "secret"? (Mine is a long-wing, maybe that
makes
> >a difference.)
> >Thanks,
> >Lynn
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Fred Marconi" <fmarconi at bellsouth.net>
> >To: <Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com>; "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> ><reflector at tvbf.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:30 PM
> >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> What am I missing. We have done aileron rolls with N244FM the plane
> >>respons beautifully and I have just a standard set up except my tubes
are
> >>steel rather than the aluminum.
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
> >> To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
> >> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ronnie,
> >> >
> >> > The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> >> > application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
> >> > the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
> >> > will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high and
> >> > the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube rather
> >> > than moving the aileron.
> >> >
> >> > Jim
> >> > --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> >> > >
> >> > > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
> >> > > job of returning to
> >> > > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a turn.
> >> > > In fact, if you
> >> > > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would turn
> >> > > even steeper.
> >> > > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why
> >> > > that is desirable in
> >> > > a certified airplane.
> >> > >
> >> > > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level is
> >> > > dihedral effect.
> >> > > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to
> >> > > do this, although I
> >> > > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
> >> > > wouldn't think the Velo
> >> > > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> >> > > under its wings - the
> >> > > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
> >> > > the swept wings
> >> > > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
> >> > > very stable for
> >> > > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low speed,
> >> > > on final. Just
> >> > > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
> >> > >
> >> > > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> >> > > sounds scary. That
> >> > > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
> >> > > saying that your
> >> > > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the air?
> >> > > Sounds like
> >> > > something is giving too much slop in your aileron control
> >> > > linkages?
> >> > >
> >> > > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
> >> > > near the aileron end.
> >> > > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they see
> >> > > with the "off
> >> > > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
> >> > > that it matters where
> >> > > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge
> >> > > line. As long as
> >> > > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it points
> >> > > to the aileron bell
> >> > > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
> >> > > "wrap-up" that you
> >> > > mention.
> >> > >
> >> > > Ronnie
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> >> > > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> >> > > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> >> > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> >> > > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > | Velo-people,
> >> > > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> >> > > stiffness". This really
> >> > > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
> >> > > following a turn than
> >> > > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
> >> > > ailerons displayed
> >> > > almost
> >> > > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
> >> > > stiffness or friction
> >> > > | in the system.
> >> > > |
> >> > > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control seemed
> >> > > fairly smooth and
> >> > > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the
> >> > > "stiffness and
> >> > > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated
> >> > > that there might be
> >> > > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
> >> > > possibly, to bending
> >> > > of
> >> > > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not attached
> >> > > at the center of
> >> > > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted the
> >> > > ailerons so they
> >> > > had
> >> > > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would
> >> > > torque-load the
> >> > > system
> >> > > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> >> > > different. I have now flown
> >> > > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much
> >> > > put it through it's
> >> > > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely helped
> >> > > but not enough.
> >> > > |
> >> > > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> >> > > second-order fix, good enough
> >> > > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> >> > > really don't want to
> >> > > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my
> >> > > head. So I am now
> >> > > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
> >> > > aileron torque tubes
> >> > > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints where
> >> > > the tubes attach
> >> > > to
> >> > > | the ailerons.
> >> > > |
> >> > > | Have any of you had any experience with either of these
> >> > > ideas?
> >> > > |
> >> > > | Regards,
> >> > > | Lynn
> >> > > |
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> > =====
> >> > James F. Agnew
> >> > Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> >> > Tampa, FL
> >> > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
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