REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

Wed Aug 4 16:46:53 CDT 2004

Jim,

I tried your test a long time ago when you all were talking about how flimsy
the system was.  I didn't see the problem, so I decided against making any
other changes beyond the one piece aileron torque tube at the aileron.

I just hate to see folks go off and make a bunch of changes if they aren't
needed.  'Course this is homebuilding and everybody can do what they like to
their own plane.

Not trying to make anybody mad - just expressing my opinions.

Ronnie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list" <reflector at tvbf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

| OK Ronnie,
|
| The massive amount of torque could be simulated by holding
| one aileron at the wing trailing edge with a thumb and one
| finger and moving the stick full right and  left.  Enough
| of my time wasted on this subject.
|
| Jim
| --- Scott Derrick <scott at tnstaafl.net> wrote:
|
| > Ronnie,
| >
| > The factory sells a new stick that has a "C" style mount
| > to the torque tube
| > instead of just bolting it through the tube&stick.
| > Completely eliminates
| > the play there.  I guess you could weld one onto your
| > existing stick
| >
| > Scott
| >
| > At 07:16 AM 8/4/2004, you wrote:
| > >How can the tubing in the wing bow???  It is in a rather
| > tight tunnel in the
| > >wing.  I had to wrap some sand paper around a piece of
| > tubing to open it up
| > >the hole to keep the tube from rubbing inside the wing.
| > Just how much
| > >force/torque were you and your engineer friends using to
| > determine that
| > >there was a problem with the aluminum tubing warping?
| > >
| > >In normal flight, we are only talking about 10 pounds of
| > stick force at the
| > >very most.  And by the way, re the warping in the keel -
| > on my Elite RG,
| > >there IS a support bearing halfway down the keel.
| > Again, no way for the
| > >aluminum aileron tube in the keel to warp.  If there is
| > any lost motion in
| > >the system, I would suspect the push/pull cables.  And
| > at the method used to
| > >attach the control stick to the aileron torque tube - I
| > gotta fix that!
| > >
| > >Ronnie
| > >
| > >
| > >----- Original Message -----
| > >From: "Jim Agnew" <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>
| > >To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
| > <reflector at tvbf.org>
| > >Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:59 PM
| > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
| > >
| > >
| > >| Ronnie,
| > >|
| > >| The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
| > >| application will deliver all of the torque and motion
| > to
| > >| the aileron.  When it is swung through an arc the AL
| > tub
| > >| will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to
| > high and
| > >| the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube
| > rather
| > >| than moving the aileron.
| > >|
| > >| Jim
| > >| --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
| > >|
| > >| > I'm not sure you have a problem.
| > >| >
| > >| > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very
| > good
| > >| > job of returning to
| > >| > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a
| > turn.
| > >| >  In fact, if you
| > >| > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would
| > turn
| > >| > even steeper.
| > >| > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand
| > why
| > >| > that is desirable in
| > >| > a certified airplane.
| > >| >
| > >| > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings
| > level is
| > >| > dihedral effect.
| > >| > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying
| > to
| > >| > do this, although I
| > >| > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG.  You
| > >| > wouldn't think the Velo
| > >| > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
| > >| > under its wings - the
| > >| > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out.  I
| > guess
| > >| > the swept wings
| > >| > causes the dihedral effect.  I love the way mine
| > flies,
| > >| > very stable for
| > >| > cross country and IFR.  And it handles well at low
| > speed,
| > >| > on final.  Just
| > >| > lands fast like a canard.  Otherwise, GREAT
| > airplane!
| > >| >
| > >| > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
| > >| > sounds scary.  That
| > >| > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect.  Are
| > you
| > >| > saying that your
| > >| > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the
| > air?
| > >| > Sounds like
| > >| > something is giving too much slop in your aileron
| > control
| > >| > linkages?
| > >| >
| > >| > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no
| > connector
| > >| > near the aileron end.
| > >| > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say
| > they see
| > >| > with the "off
| > >| > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement.  I can't
| > see
| > >| > that it matters where
| > >| > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the
| > hinge
| > >| > line.  As long as
| > >| > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it
| > points
| > >| > to the aileron bell
| > >| > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand
| > the
| > >| > "wrap-up" that you
| > >| > mention.
| > >| >
| > >| > Ronnie
| > >| >
| > >| >
| > >| >
| > >| >
| > >| >
| > >| >
| > >| > ----- Original Message -----
| > >| > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
| > >| > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
| > >| > <reflector at tvbf.org>
| > >| > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
| > >| > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
| > >| >
| > >| >
| > >| > | Velo-people,
| > >| > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
| > >| > stiffness". This really
| > >| > | related more to the degree of aileron
| > self-centering
| > >| > following a turn than
| > >| > | to stiffness per se.  On my airplane I thought the
| > >| > ailerons displayed
| > >| > almost
| > >| > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this
| > to
| > >| > stiffness or friction
| > >| > | in the system.
| > >| > |
| > >| > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control
| > seemed
| > >| > fairly smooth and
| > >| > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject
| > the
| > >| > "stiffness and
| > >| > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I
| > postulated
| > >| > that there might be
| > >| > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system
| > due,
| > >| > possibly, to bending
| > >| > of
| > >| > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not
| > attached
| > >| > at the center of
| > >| > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I
| > adjusted the
| > >| > ailerons so they
| > >| > had
| > >| > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this
| > would
| > >| > torque-load the
| > >| > system
| > >| > | in flight and I should feel at least something
| > >| > different. I have now flown
| > >| > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty
| > much
| > >| > put it through it's
| > >| > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely
| > helped
| > >| > but not enough.
| > >| > |
| > >| > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
| > >| > second-order fix, good enough
| > >| > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
| > >| > really don't want to
| > >| > | increase the droop;  I might break something -
| > Like my
| > >| > head. So I am now
| > >| > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the
| > aluminum
| > >| > aileron torque tubes
| > >| > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints
| > where
| > >| > the tubes attach
| > >| > to
| > >| > | the ailerons.
| > >| > |
| > >| > | Have any of you had any experience with either of
| > these
| > >| > ideas?
| > >| > |
| > >| > | Regards,
| > >| > | Lynn
| > >| > |
| > >| > | _______________________________________________
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| > >| >
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| > >|
| > >|
| > >| =====
| > >| James F. Agnew
| > >| Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
| > >| Tampa, FL
| > >| Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
| > >| _______________________________________________
| > >| To change your email address, visit
| > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
| > >|
| > >| Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
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| > >
| > >
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| >
| >
| > "Those who sacrifice freedom to get security, deserve
| > neither."
| > - Benjamin Franklin
| >
| >
| > _______________________________________________
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| >
|
|
| =====
| James F. Agnew
| Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
| Tampa, FL
| Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
| _______________________________________________
| To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
|
| Visit the gallery!  www.tvbf.org/gallery
| user:pw = tvbf:jamaicangoose
| Check new archives: www.tvbf.org/pipermail
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|