REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

Wed Aug 4 12:09:26 CDT 2004

They're mechanical engineers with a twist.

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Alex Balic
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:09 AM
To: Jim_Agnew_2 at yahoo.com; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

torsional engineers?

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-bounces at tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-bounces at tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Jim Agnew
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 5:54 AM
To: bkuc1 at tampabay.rr.com; Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

Bob,

The major problem is in the wings.  I also replaced the
torque tubes in the keel with SS, however that was to
eliminate sideways warping.  This is from actual experience
and testing.  I also had a competent group of torsional
engineers verify my findings with calculations and
simulation.

Jim

--- bkuc1 at tampabay.rr.com wrote:

---------------------------------
It is my understanding that the twisting that could happen
is in the keel not in the wings,  I remember hearing that
the original gull wings velos do not have this problem
because the alum tubing in the keel is much shorter..  Do
the planes that have the yokes have this problem, since
they only have the alum in the wings?  I heard that if you
make a bracket and insert it in the keel by the rear seats,
that the problem mentioned here is diminished.

Bob Kuc

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Agnew <jim_agnew_2 at yahoo.com>

Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2004 9:59 pm

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering

> Ronnie,
>
> The answer is simple, the AL tube in a direct twisting
> application will deliver all of the torque and motion to
> the aileron. When it is swung through an arc the AL tub
> will suddenly bow when the aileron load becomes to high
and
> the torque is transformed into a bowing of the tube
rather
> than moving the aileron.
>
> Jim
> --- Ronnie Brown <romott at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure you have a problem.
> >
> > The 172 that I flew for 10 years didn't do a very good
> > job of returning to
> > wings level if you turned the yoke loose while in a
turn.
> > In fact, if you
> > were more than about 20-30 degrees banked, it would
turn
> > even steeper.
> > Called spiral stability - I'm not sure I understand why

> > that is desirable in
> > a certified airplane.
> >
> > The tendency for an airplane to return to wings level
is
> > dihedral effect.
> > The Velocity is supposed to be fairly good at trying to

> > do this, although I
> > haven't really tested this on my 173 Elite RG. You
> > wouldn't think the Velo
> > would be as good as a C172, since the 172 is hanging
> > under its wings - the
> > Velo has mid wings, and they go straight out. I guess
> > the swept wings
> > causes the dihedral effect. I love the way mine flies,
> > very stable for
> > cross country and IFR. And it handles well at low
speed,
> > on final. Just
> > lands fast like a canard. Otherwise, GREAT airplane!
> >
> > Having the ailerons set at 1/2" down while centered
> > sounds scary. That
> > would cause a pretty good pitch "down" effect. Are you
> > saying that your
> > ailerons go to faired straight neutral while in the
air?
> > Sounds like
> > something is giving too much slop in your aileron
control
> > linkages?
> >
> > My ailerons have one piece torque tubes - no connector
> > near the aileron end.
> > I don't see the slop or give that some folks say they
see
> > with the "off
> > center" aluminum torque tube arrangement. I can't see
> > that it matters where
> > the torque tube is mounted in relationship to the hinge

> > line. As long as
> > the torque tube is attached in such a way that it
points
> > to the aileron bell
> > crank at the root of the wing, I don't understand the
> > "wrap-up" that you
> > mention.
> >
> > Ronnie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lynn Gallup" <LGallup at mn.rr.com>
> > To: "Velocity Aircraft Owners and Builders list"
> > <reflector at tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 6:17 PM
> > Subject: REFLECTOR: Aileron self-centering
> >
> >
> > | Velo-people,
> > | A while back I started a thread called "aileron
> > stiffness". This really
> > | related more to the degree of aileron self-centering
> > following a turn than
> > | to stiffness per se. On my airplane I thought the
> > ailerons displayed
> > almost
> > | no self-centering in flight and I attributed this to
> > stiffness or friction
> > | in the system.
> > |
> > | I noticed that on the ground the aileron control
seemed
> > fairly smooth and
> > | easy compared to in-flight so I decided to reject the

> > "stiffness and
> > | friction" hypothesis and look elsewhere. I postulated

> > that there might be
> > | some kind of "slack" or "wrap-up" in the system due,
> > possibly, to bending
> > of
> > | the aileron torque tubes because they are not
attached
> > at the center of
> > | pivot of the ailerons. As an experiment, I adjusted
the
> > ailerons so they
> > had
> > | a half-inch of droop when centered. I felt this would

> > torque-load the
> > system
> > | in flight and I should feel at least something
> > different. I have now flown
> > | the airplane about ten hours this way and pretty much

> > put it through it's
> > | paces. My feeling is that the change definitely
helped
> > but not enough.
> > |
> > | I believe the aileron droop idea is really a
> > second-order fix, good enough
> > | for an experiment but not the primary factor so I
> > really don't want to
> > | increase the droop; I might break something - Like my

> > head. So I am now
> > | thinking about two things (1) replacing the aluminum
> > aileron torque tubes
> > | with steel and/or (2) installing universal joints
where
> > the tubes attach
> > to
> > | the ailerons.
> > |
> > | Have any of you had any experience with either of
these
> > ideas?
> > |
> > | Regards,
> > | Lynn
> > |
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>
>
> =====
> James F. Agnew
> Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
> Tampa, FL
> Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
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=====
James F. Agnew
Jim_Agnew_2 at Yahoo.Com
Tampa, FL
Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed & Flying
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