REFLECTOR:Why not test NPG+?

Al Gietzen reflector@tvbf.org
Wed, 21 Apr 2004 06:59:24 -0700


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=20

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Why not test NPG+?

=20

Lots of thoughtful comments  on this debate; you all have me thinking.

=20

A few assumptions about NPG+ deserve testing before I throw out my three
bottles of product.   I believe in the scientific method, and I've got =
two
fluid engineers living a block or two away.  They have the ability to =
remain
objective by testing conventional vs. NPG+ . . . and they are rigorous.  =
I
know they'll keep it based on science, not opinion or wishful thinking.
Like Kurt Winker, first I'll test my Chevy aluminum block with =
conventional
coolant, and then with NPG+.   Here are the  assumptions that I consider
worth investigating NPG+ technology:

=20

1) If you compare two coolants (conventional 50/50 water antifreeze) and
NPG+, the NPG should result in lower CHTs because when water comes into
contact with hot metal (350+ degrees) it's going to boil away and leave =
that
part of the metal hotter. =20

=20

If it ever gets to this point; you are already in trouble.  Any time you =
get
to "film" the heat transfer coefficient goes way down and the situation
deteriorates rapidly into full scale boiling.

=20

On the other hand; "nucleate" boiling - many small steam bubbles forming =
on
the surface and collapsing - increases the heat transfer significantly.
Generally engine cooling systems are designed to stay away from this =
regime
under normal operation because of the risk of getting to film boiling =
under
high power conditions.  Other cases, and I'm convinced it is the case in =
the
rotary, the design utilizes the benefit of nucleate boiling at the =
hottest
spots in the engine under max power conditions.  The only result that =
the
operator will notice under these conditions is that the amount expected
coolant expansion is greater than you'd expect just looking ta the =
thermal
expansion coefficient of the water. =20

=20

I expect that nucleate boiling is present in "performance enhanced" =
engines,
such as yours, at high power operation.

=20

It seems to me that the only real advantage of the NPG coolant is that =
it
doesn't boil until very high temps; thereby eliminating the possible =
"film
boiling" scenario - not a small matter. Overall the engine will run =
hotter
because the heat transfer characteristics are poor; but it can be argued
that hotter is better from an overall thermal efficiency standpoint.  =
There
are also likely to be higher thermal gradients in the engine for the =
same
reason, which may not be good.  It seems however; that engines do handle
issue, because the NPG is being used successfully.  There is still the =
other
factor of higher pumping power due to the higher viscosity.

=20

That segment of hotter metal temp has to go somewhere, so it ultimately
spreads out to the rest of the block, hypothetically migrating to the =
rest
of the block, thus resulting in higher CHTs.  If you have a normal
functioning cooling system, NPG+ claims their product will result in =
lower
block (CHT) temps than conventional 50/50 mix.  I'll wait and see what
happens inside  my engine rather than trust their data.

=20

2) NPG technology is based on a much higher surface tension compared =
with
conventional 50/50 antifreeze & water.  If this hold true in my tests, =
NPG+
should remain attached to the hot spots in my engine.  It's kind of like
"Water Wetter" products, but Water Wetter is basically a surfactant.  If =
you
use it you'll end up with a "detergent"  in your coolant - the poor =
man's
way of trying to get higher surface tension.  Better than nothing to
increase surface tension, but it's still a surfactant which means you =
have
bubbles, but smaller bubbles.

=20

3) As for the failure of a system, this should be easy to test if I put
20-30 hours of static plus taxi testing on my system.  In theory, you =
could
run at zero pressure, but Evans rcommends a 5 lb. pressure cap.  That's =
an
absolute safety advantage over conventional pressures because it puts =
50-75%
less stress on all the hoses and gaskets.  In my book, that's definitely
worth testing scientifically.

=20

My plan is to reserve judgment until after run the test, and I'll =
definitely
let you people know.  I'll be the  first guy to throw out the NPG+ if it
does not provide the safety margin I'm looking for.  No guarantees which
ever way I go, but at least I'll have done my best to work on more fact =
than
fiction.

=20

All the best,

Dennis

FG Elite,  Chevy 4.5 Liter V-6

=20

=20

=20

This is news to me.  My only agument to the documented success is that =
it
seems contrary to principals of engine cooling.  The conventional
water/antifreeze mix boils in the cylinder jacket and boiling is the =
most
efficient means of heat transfer which means it will keep your engine =
the
coolest.  They admit that with NPG+ the engine runs hotter, but claim =
that
is a good thing for better efficiency.  It is true that the hotter the
engine the more thermodynamically efficient it will run, but it won't =
run
long if the temperature is too high.  Us with air cooled engines don't =
seem
to be looking for ways to increase our engine temps.  I suggest you =
record
your CHT/EGT temps wtih the distilled water and compare with NPG+.  If
you're comfortable with the higher temps using NPG+, then I guess it =
will be
ok.  Eliminating boil-over is a detriment rather than an asset IMO.  =
With a
conventional coolant if you lose coolant circulation, it boils over.
However as long as it is boiling over, you still have cooling and time =
to
prepare to shutdown before your engine overheats.  With the NPG+, I =
think
overheating would happen immediately upon loss of coolant circulation.

=20

John

----- Original Message -----

From: NMFlyer1@aol.com

To: reflector@tvbf.org

Cc: dmartin@cougar.netutah.net ; ALVentures@cox.net

Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:06 PM

Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Velocity Manuals, Methods & Views

=20

Greetings,

=20

 I wanted to get the information on a product I plan on using to all the
liquid cooled engine experimentors.  Specifically the NPG+ is of =
interest.
I know that it seems to work well in race applications and should add =
the
little extra benefit that our hard run engines may need.

I plan on firing up my Chevy V-6 in about 4-6 weeks and will use =
distilled
water to ensure I have no leaks. Then I will flush the system and put in =
the
NPG+.

=20

=20

Evans <http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html>  Cooling Systems, Inc. =
High
Performance Engine Cooling and Power Production.

=20

Let me know what you think, and I hope it helps.

=20

Kurt Winker

=20

=20

=20


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</=
span></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Re:
REFLECTOR:Why not test NPG+?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Lots of thoughtful comments&nbsp; on this =
debate; you
all have me thinking.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>A few assumptions about NPG+ deserve testing =
before I
throw out my three bottles of product.&nbsp;&nbsp; I believe in the =
scientific method,
and I've got two fluid engineers living a block or two away.&nbsp; They =
have
the ability to remain objective by testing conventional vs. NPG+ . . . =
and they
are rigorous.&nbsp; I know they'll keep it based on science, not opinion =
or
wishful thinking.&nbsp; Like Kurt Winker, first I'll test my Chevy =
aluminum
block with conventional coolant, and then with NPG+.&nbsp;&nbsp; Here =
are
the&nbsp; assumptions that I consider worth investigating NPG+ =
technology:</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1) If you compare two coolants (conventional =
50/50
water antifreeze) and NPG+, the NPG should result in lower CHTs because =
when
water comes into contact with hot metal (350+ degrees) it's going to =
boil away
and leave that part of the metal hotter.&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>If it ever gets to this point; =
you are
already in trouble. &nbsp;Any time you get to &#8220;film&#8221; the =
heat
transfer coefficient goes way down and the situation deteriorates =
rapidly into
full scale boiling.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>On the other hand; =
&#8220;nucleate&#8221;
boiling &#8211; many small steam bubbles forming on the surface and =
collapsing &#8211;
increases the heat transfer significantly.&nbsp; Generally engine =
cooling
systems are designed to stay away from this regime under normal =
operation
because of the risk of getting to film boiling under high power =
conditions. &nbsp;Other
cases, and I&#8217;m convinced it is the case in the rotary, the design
utilizes the benefit of nucleate boiling at the hottest spots in the =
engine under
max power conditions.&nbsp; The only result that the operator will =
notice under
these conditions is that the amount expected coolant expansion is =
greater than
you&#8217;d expect just looking ta the thermal expansion coefficient of =
the
water. &nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I expect that nucleate boiling is
present in &#8220;performance enhanced&#8221; engines, such as yours, at =
high
power operation.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>It seems to me that the only real
advantage of the NPG coolant is that it doesn&#8217;t boil until very =
high
temps; thereby eliminating the possible &#8220;film boiling&#8221; =
scenario &#8211;
not a small matter. Overall the engine will run hotter because the heat
transfer characteristics are poor; but it can be argued that hotter is =
better
from an overall thermal efficiency standpoint.&nbsp; There are also =
likely to
be higher thermal gradients in the engine for the same reason, which may =
not be
good. &nbsp;It seems however; that engines do handle issue, because the =
NPG is
being used successfully. &nbsp;There is still the other factor of higher
pumping power due to the higher viscosity.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>That segment of hotter metal temp has to go =
somewhere,
so it ultimately spreads out to the rest of the block, hypothetically =
migrating
to the rest of the block, thus resulting in higher CHTs.&nbsp; If you =
have a
normal functioning cooling system, NPG+ claims their product will result =
in
lower block (CHT) temps than conventional 50/50 mix.&nbsp; I'll wait and =
see
what happens inside&nbsp;<u> my engine</u> rather than trust their =
data.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2) NPG technology is based on a much higher =
surface
tension compared with conventional 50/50 antifreeze &amp; water.&nbsp; =
If this hold
true in my tests, NPG+ should remain attached to the hot spots in my
engine.&nbsp; It's kind of like &quot;Water Wetter&quot; products, but =
Water
Wetter is basically a surfactant.&nbsp; If you use it you'll end up with =
a
&quot;detergent&quot;&nbsp; in your coolant - the poor man's way of =
trying to
get higher surface tension.&nbsp; Better than nothing to increase =
surface
tension, but it's still a surfactant which means you have bubbles, but =
smaller
bubbles.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3) As for the failure of a system, this =
should be easy
to test if I put 20-30 hours of static plus taxi testing on my =
system.&nbsp; In
theory, you could run at zero pressure, but Evans rcommends a 5 lb. =
pressure
cap.&nbsp; That's an absolute safety advantage over conventional =
pressures
because it puts 50-75% less stress on all the hoses and gaskets.&nbsp; =
In my
book, that's definitely worth testing scientifically.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>My plan is to reserve judgment until after =
run the
test, and I'll definitely let you people know.&nbsp; I'll be the&nbsp; =
first
guy to throw out the NPG+ if it does not provide the safety margin I'm =
looking
for.&nbsp; No guarantees which ever way I go, but at least I'll have =
done my
best to work on more fact than fiction.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All the best,</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Dennis</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>FG Elite,&nbsp; Chevy 4.5 Liter =
V-6</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite =
cite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>This is news to me.&nbsp; My only agument to =
the
documented success is that it seems contrary to principals of engine
cooling.&nbsp; The conventional water/antifreeze mix boils in the =
cylinder
jacket and boiling is the most efficient means of heat transfer which =
means it
will keep your engine the coolest.&nbsp; They admit that with NPG+ the =
engine
runs hotter, but claim that is a good thing for better efficiency.&nbsp; =
It is
true that the hotter the engine the more thermodynamically efficient it =
will
run, but it won't run long if the temperature is too high.&nbsp; Us with =
air
cooled engines don't seem to be looking for ways to increase our engine
temps.&nbsp; I suggest you record your CHT/EGT temps wtih the distilled =
water
and compare with NPG+.&nbsp; If you're comfortable with the higher
temps&nbsp;using NPG+, then I guess it will be ok.&nbsp; Eliminating =
boil-over
is a detriment rather than an asset IMO.&nbsp; With a conventional =
coolant if
you lose coolant circulation, it boils over.&nbsp; However as long as it =
is
boiling over, you still have cooling and time to prepare to shutdown =
before
your engine overheats.&nbsp; With the NPG+, I think overheating would =
happen
immediately upon loss of coolant circulation.</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite =
cite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite =
cite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>John</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>----- Original Message =
-----</span></font></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b>
<a href=3D"mailto:NMFlyer1@aol.com">NMFlyer1@aol.com</a></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b>
<a href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</a></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></font></b>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:dmartin@cougar.netutah.net">dmartin@cougar.netutah.net</a>=
 ; <a
href=3D"mailto:ALVentures@cox.net">ALVentures@cox.net</a></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b>
 Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:06 PM</p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b>
Re: REFLECTOR:Velocity Manuals, Methods &amp; Views</p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Greetings,</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;I wanted to get the information on a =
product I
plan on using to all the liquid cooled engine experimentors.&nbsp; =
Specifically
the NPG+ is of interest.&nbsp; I know that it seems to work well in race
applications and should add the little extra benefit that our hard run =
engines
may need.</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I plan on firing up my Chevy V-6 in about 4-6 =
weeks
and will use distilled water to ensure I have no leaks. Then I will =
flush the
system and put in the NPG+.</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a =
href=3D"http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html">Evans
Cooling Systems, Inc. High Performance Engine Cooling and Power =
Production.</a></span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Let me know what you think, and I hope it =
helps.</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Kurt Winker</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

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