REFLECTOR:Follow up on my bad landing
Ronnie Brown
reflector@tvbf.org
Tue, 6 Apr 2004 14:58:13 -0400
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MessageThat is what Lycoming says (tear down and inspect after a prop =
strike). But I have heard Duane say that they have not observed any =
engine damage after a wooden prop strike. =20
Sort of like the stainless props on a boat motor that will destroy the =
drive when hitting rocks - aluminum props just shed a blade or two. No =
damage to the drive.
Ronnie
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Andy Millin=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Follow up on my bad landing
Don,
I am very sorry for the damage to your aircraft. It may be some =
comfort that you have figured out what the cause most likely was and can =
try to take steps to prevent recurrence.
If you feel up to it, I have a question. From your post, it sounds =
like you ground the prop down much as an aluminum prop would have =
curled. How do you know that no damage was done to the engine? Please =
forgive my ignorance. I really don't know as much as I would like about =
aircraft engines. What I had been told was that if the engine was =
running and the prop came in contact with anything larger than a bug or =
a cowl screw, it was considered a prop strike and the engine would need =
to be torn down and inspected. An engine may very well run after the =
strike, but damage may have been incurred that would only show later if =
the engine continued use.
I'm asking in earnest, I really would like to learn here.
Thanks,
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On =
Behalf Of Donald Royer
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:07 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Follow up on my bad landing
I promised more information on my bad landing last week as soon as I =
had more information. After thinking more about what happened and =
talking to several eye witnesses who between them saw all of the =
incident, I can say with some confidence exactly what happened.
First , if was not a gear collapse, it was a gear up landing. What =
initially confused the situation was when the plane can to a stop, the =
gear was out of the gear wells and resting on the ground. In addition =
the gear switch was in the down position. However, a pilot who was out =
walking his dog at the appropriate end of the runway and who saw the =
final approach and touchdown was quite sure that the gear was in the =
wells at the time of touchdown. That information along with the =
information that I reported before that I was distracted enough that I =
really could not say whether I had two greens or not, but that I would =
in all probability have seen the red gear unsafe light if it had been on =
seems to lead to one conclusion.
The only scenario that I could come up with the fits everything is =
the following. I put the gear switch down at the appropriate time but =
then nothing happened. This possibility has been discussed here on the =
Reflector before and in fact I have installed the little circuit to =
bypass the down pressure switch to get out of this condition. Then, the =
shock of the landing jarred the system out or the hang up and the gear =
tried to extend as I was sliding down the runway. This conclusion is =
also supported by the fact that I heard the gear horn at about ten feet. =
My simultaneous reaction was to think that the gear warning system was =
malfunctioning again as it had several times recently, and before I got =
around to considering that it might be telling me the truth this time, I =
was on the ground.
I put the cause to be a combination of a known flaw in the system =
and pilot error. I simply did not notice that the gear had not extended =
when it should have. In my defense, I was distracted at the time, it was =
late afternoon and the sun was in my eyes and the air was very bumpy. =
In addition, I was probably paying too much attention to the head =
temperatures. The purpose of the flight was to check some changes in the =
air baffling. I can assure you that never again will I land without =
being sure that I have two greens regardless of any other circumstances.
It could have been worse, there was remarkably little damage and the =
FAA didn't get involved. A number of airport people helped me get the =
plane off of the runway and into my locked hangar as soon as possible. =
The only damage was the expected scraped belly, a little nonstructural =
damage to one wing tip, and over course, the prop.
There has been a lot of bad mouthing of MT going on here right now, =
but my prop got abraded down to about half of it's original diameter =
without damaging either the engine or the prop hub. That is going to =
save me much money.
The following is more speculative. I may have uncovered at least one =
cause of the down pressure switch hang up. We were having one of our =
down slope wind situations where the air temperature can jump twenty to =
thirty degrees in an hour or so, and the plane in the hangar was =
probably at least 30-35 degrees cooler than it was in flight. With that =
in mind, I tried a little experiment this morning. I went out to the =
hangar when the temperature was about 35 degrees. With the plane up on =
jacks, I retracted the gear and left it up while I warmed the hangar as =
fast as I could with a propane heater making sure that the warm air was =
circulated through the nose compartment and the cabin of the plane. =
When the temperature in the hangar reached 80 degrees, I tried to lower =
the gear "BINGO" it was hung up. This is only one data point and it may =
not be reproducible, but it worked once for me.
Donald Royer
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>That is what Lycoming says (tear down and =
inspect after=20
a prop strike). But I have heard Duane say that they have not =
observed any engine damage after a wooden prop strike. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Sort of like the stainless props on a boat motor =
that will=20
destroy the drive when hitting rocks - aluminum props just shed a =
blade or=20
two. No damage to the drive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Ronnie</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Damillin@sbcglobal.net =
href=3D"mailto:amillin@sbcglobal.net">Andy=20
Millin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dreflector@tvbf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 06, 2004 =
2:23=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: REFLECTOR:Follow =
up on my=20
bad landing</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>Don,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>I=20
am very sorry for the damage to your aircraft. It may be =
some=20
comfort that you have figured out what the cause most likely was and =
can try=20
to take steps to prevent recurrence.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>If you feel=20
up to it, I have a question. From your post, it sounds like =
you=20
ground the prop down much as an aluminum prop would have curled. =
How do=20
you know that no damage was done to the engine? =
Please forgive my=20
ignorance. I really don't know as much as I would like about =
aircraft=20
engines. What I had been told was that if the engine was running =
and the prop came in contact with anything larger than a bug =
or a=20
cowl screw, it was considered a prop strike and the engine would need =
to be=20
torn down and inspected. An engine may very well run after the =
strike,=20
but damage may have been incurred that would only show later if the =
engine=20
continued use.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>I'm asking=20
in earnest, I really would like to learn here.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>Andy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D151211618-06042004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
</B>Donald Royer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:07=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> reflector@tvbf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
REFLECTOR:Follow up=20
on my bad landing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>I promised more information on my bad landing last week as soon =
as I=20
had more information. After thinking more about what happened and =
talking to=20
several eye witnesses who between them saw all of the incident, I =
can say=20
with some confidence exactly what happened.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>First , if was not a gear collapse, it was a gear up landing. =
What=20
initially confused the situation was when the plane can to a stop, =
the gear=20
was out of the gear wells and resting on the ground. In addition the =
gear=20
switch was in the down position. However, a pilot who was out =
walking his=20
dog at the appropriate end of the runway and who saw the final =
approach and=20
touchdown was quite sure that the gear was in the wells at the time =
of=20
touchdown. That information along with the information that I =
reported=20
before that I was distracted enough that I really could not say =
whether I=20
had two greens or not, but that I would in all probability have seen =
the red=20
gear unsafe light if it had been on seems to lead to one =
conclusion.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The only scenario that I could come up with the fits everything =
is the=20
following. I put the gear switch down at the appropriate time but =
then=20
nothing happened. This possibility has been discussed here on the =
Reflector=20
before and in fact I have installed the little circuit to bypass the =
down=20
pressure switch to get out of this condition. Then, the shock of the =
landing=20
jarred the system out or the hang up and the gear tried to extend as =
I was=20
sliding down the runway. This conclusion is also supported by =
the fact=20
that I heard the gear horn at about ten feet. My simultaneous =
reaction was=20
to think that the gear warning system was malfunctioning again as it =
had=20
several times recently, and before I got around to considering that =
it might=20
be telling me the truth this time, I was on the ground.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I put the cause to be a combination of a known flaw in the =
system and=20
pilot error. I simply did not notice that the gear had not extended =
when it=20
should have. In my defense, I was distracted at the time, it was =
late=20
afternoon and the sun was in my eyes and the air was very =
bumpy. In=20
addition, I was probably paying too much attention to the head =
temperatures.=20
The purpose of the flight was to check some changes in the air =
baffling. I=20
can assure you that never again will I land without being sure that =
I have=20
two greens regardless of any other circumstances.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It could have been worse, there was remarkably little damage =
and the=20
FAA didn't get involved. A number of airport people helped me get =
the plane=20
off of the runway and into my locked hangar as soon as =
possible. The=20
only damage was the expected scraped belly, a little nonstructural =
damage to=20
one wing tip, and over course, the prop.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There has been a lot of bad mouthing of MT going on here right =
now, but=20
my prop got abraded down to about half of it's original diameter =
without=20
damaging either the engine or the prop hub. That is going to save me =
much=20
money.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The following is more speculative. I may have uncovered at =
least one=20
cause of the down pressure switch hang up. We were having one of our =
down=20
slope wind situations where the air temperature can jump twenty to =
thirty=20
degrees in an hour or so, and the plane in the hangar was probably =
at least=20
30-35 degrees cooler than it was in flight. With that in mind, I =
tried a=20
little experiment this morning. I went out to the hangar when the=20
temperature was about 35 degrees. With the plane up on jacks, I =
retracted=20
the gear and left it up while I warmed the hangar as fast as I could =
with a=20
propane heater making sure that the warm air was circulated through =
the nose=20
compartment and the cabin of the plane. When the temperature =
in the=20
hangar reached 80 degrees, I tried to lower the gear "BINGO" it was =
hung up.=20
This is only one data point and it may not be reproducible, but it =
worked=20
once for me.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donald Royer</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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