REFLECTOR:Oil temps and heating

Laurence Coen reflector@tvbf.org
Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:16:01 -0600


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Dave,

I'll give you my experience based on 17 years of flying a Piper Cherokee =
180.  The way it's set up, the oil cooler airflow is completely blocked =
for temperatures below 50 deg. F.  The oil sump is the only heat =
exchanger under these conditions.  My conclusion from this is air flow =
over the sump is an important factor in reducing oil temperatures.  I am =
using a Franklin in my Velocity and it has fins on the oil sump which I =
view as a not too subtle hint.

Larry Coen
SE/RG Franklin
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Dave Nelson=20
  To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
  Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:23 PM
  Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Oil temps and heating


  I'm fairly new to the reflector,  so I apologise if this subject has =
been covered before.  I guess I'd be a bit surprised if it hadn't...

  I've just passed 600 hours on my STD-RG, which I built.  I live in =
Minnesota, and winters are long up here, so I always search for good =
projects to upgrade my aircraft over those long winter months.  Last =
winter I decided to clean up the lower cowl in order to improve speed & =
performance.... you see, my hangar mate is a beautiful Cozy 3 place.  =
With his 150 horses, he's close (way too close) to keeping up with me in =
my IO-360 powered, 200 HP velocity RG.  It's always a race when we go =
flying...

  My plan was to do drag reduction to the lower cowl by reworking the =
armpit scoops I use for cooling air and eliminating the induction air =
scoop.  My airplane's been flying for quite awhile now, so I'm sure you =
guys and the factory have come up with 50 better solutions than what use =
to have... which was the factory standard scoops mounted on the cowl, =
and separate "inner" scoops that were mounted to the sides of the =
fuselage and ducted cooling air to the plenum.  I orignally made the =
inner/outer scoop combination to make it easy to remove the lower cowl =
without having to muck with anything.  It worked well, but there was =
quite a gap required between the inner fuselage mounted scoops and the =
cowling. =20

  I figured I could reduce the total scoop size by about 25% and improve =
cooling in the process by getting rid of the gap.  Cooling would be =
improved given that high pressure air was leaking into the lower engine =
area through the gap... by tightening up the outer scoop I would =
actually increase the differential pressure between the plenum and the =
lower engine area, and also reduce overall drag.  At least that was the =
theory.  So, I reworked the whole system - I made smaller armpit scoops =
that are mounted to the fuselage, and reformed the cowl to fit tight =
against the new scoops.  I faired the new scoops into the cowl so that =
the airflow stays attached as long as possible.  Additionally, I made a =
small plenum that provides both engine induction air and cooling air =
from the right hand armpit scoop, thereby eliminating the drag from the =
separate induction air scoop. =20

  Results from all this work are very mixed... my speed didn't increase =
at all despite the drag reductions.  You may laugh at my stupidity on =
this, but I neglected the fact that by not separating the air in the new =
small cooling/induction air plenum, I lost the ram air effect on the =
induction air side.  I lost about 1.5 inches of maximum manifold =
pressure because I didn't separate the induction air from the cooling =
air on the right scoop.  Alas, a project for this winter.  The real =
problem, though, has been that with this new setup, my oil temps have =
become very difficult to manage. =20

  From a cooling perspective, I've got the standard nose mounted oil =
cooler and cabin heat system.  Before the modification, my oil temps =
rarely got up to 100 C (212 F), and my CHTs were all around 350 F +/- 25 =
degrees. Now, in a climb I can easily heat the oil to redline (242 F) if =
I'm not careful.  After much thought and work, it appears that the =
leakage air that was slipping between the inner and outer armpit scoops =
and pressurizing the lower cowl also had a cooling effect on the =
accessory case, oil sump, and the oil temperature transducer.  =
Tightening up the cowl, eliminating the "blow by". Reducing the size of =
the armpit scoops did not change the CHTs, but because I lost the =
airflow over the bottom engine and accessory case, my oil temps are now =
a problem. =20

  So, here are two questions for the reflector crowd:

  1) How much, if any, cooling air is required for the accessory case =
and oil sump?  It's logical that you'd want some, but, OTOH any air down =
there reduces the differential pressure from the plenum / top of the =
engine to the bottom... thereby potentially increasing CHTs.  Thoughts?  =
BTW, just to get the discussion going, I discussed this extensively with =
the Lycoming rep at OSH, who told me that he didn't think I needed any =
airflow over the sump/accessory case...

  2) My cabin heat box is the original, and I've always been unhappy =
with the push/pull cable for the babin heat flapper valve.  Anyone put =
in a electrically actuated flapper valve?

  To anyone who's acutally read this far... THANKS!

  Dave
  600+ hours STD-RG N22DN

    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Ronnie Brown=20
    To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
    Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 2:02 PM
    Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Heating


    I was considering installing electric seat heaters but I decided to =
try a google search for 12vdc electric blankets and look what I found!  =
http://www.baproducts.com/rphb1101.htm

    Ronnie
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Craig and/or Denise Woolston=20
      To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
      Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:20 AM
      Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Heating


      Well I went way overboard but it was one of those great ideas that =
quickly multipled in to lots of hours and it's still not done...

      I made two plenums that will mount on canard bulkhead.  They each =
have a hot and a cold source coming from front oil cooler and fresh air =
NACA respectively.  Since the wife and I are never the same temperature =
a small diverter flap inside each plenum allows for individual =
temperature control.  I plan to drill two holes in canard bulkhead that =
each plenum sits over the top.  One hole will just allow the output to =
blow down on feet and the other will be routed to the instrument panel =
eyeball vent.  Time will only tell if it will work.  As for the rear =
seats I'm thinking seriously about electric seat warmers and/or electric =
blanket outlet.=20

      Craig
      !----------------------------!
      ! Craig Woolston             !
      ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA      !
      ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net   !
      !----------------------------!=20

        -----Original Message-----
        From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org =
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of velocityxlfg
        Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 9:07 AM
        To: reflector@tvbf.org
        Subject: REFLECTOR:Heating


        Can some one send me some pictures of what they did on there =
heating system. ducts, Heat exchanger routing of the
        heat ducts.   Ect.
        Ron
        velocityxl@fastmail.fm
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dave,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'll give you my experience based on 17 =
years of=20
flying a Piper Cherokee 180.&nbsp; The way it's set up, the oil cooler =
airflow=20
is completely blocked for temperatures below 50 deg. F.&nbsp; The oil =
sump is=20
the only heat exchanger under these conditions.&nbsp; My conclusion from =
this is=20
air flow over the sump is an important factor in reducing oil=20
temperatures.&nbsp; I am using a Franklin in my Velocity and it has fins =
on the=20
oil sump which I view as a not too subtle hint.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Larry Coen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>SE/RG Franklin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Ddavenali@charter.net =
href=3D"mailto:davenali@charter.net">Dave=20
  Nelson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dreflector@tvbf.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, =
2003 8:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: REFLECTOR:Oil =
temps and=20
  heating</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm fairly new to the =
reflector,&nbsp; so I=20
  apologise if this subject has been covered before.&nbsp; I guess I'd =
be a bit=20
  surprised if it hadn't...</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've just passed 600 hours on my =
STD-RG, which I=20
  built.&nbsp; I live in Minnesota, and winters are long up here, so I =
always=20
  search for good projects to upgrade my aircraft over those long winter =

  months.&nbsp; Last winter I decided to clean up the lower cowl in =
order to=20
  improve speed &amp; performance.... you see, my hangar mate is a =
beautiful=20
  Cozy 3 place.&nbsp; With his 150 horses, he's close (way too close) to =
keeping=20
  up with me in my IO-360 powered, 200 HP velocity RG.&nbsp; It's always =
a race=20
  when we go flying...</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My plan was to do drag reduction to =
the lower=20
  cowl by reworking the armpit scoops I use for cooling air and =
eliminating the=20
  induction air scoop.&nbsp; My airplane's been flying for quite awhile =
now, so=20
  I'm sure you guys and the factory have come up with 50 better =
solutions than=20
  what use to have... which was the factory standard scoops mounted on =
the cowl,=20
  and separate "inner" scoops that were mounted to the sides of the =
fuselage and=20
  ducted cooling air to the plenum.&nbsp; I orignally made the =
inner/outer scoop=20
  combination to make it easy to remove the lower cowl without having to =
muck=20
  with anything.&nbsp; It worked well, but there was quite a gap =
required=20
  between the inner fuselage mounted scoops and the cowling.&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I figured I could reduce the total =
scoop=20
  size&nbsp;by about 25% and improve cooling in the process by getting =
rid of=20
  the gap.&nbsp; Cooling would be improved given that high pressure air =
was=20
  leaking into the lower engine area&nbsp;through the gap... by =
tightening up=20
  the outer scoop I would actually increase the differential pressure =
between=20
  the plenum and the lower engine area, and also reduce overall =
drag.&nbsp; At=20
  least that was the theory.&nbsp; So, I reworked the whole system - I =
made=20
  smaller armpit scoops that are mounted to the fuselage, and reformed =
the cowl=20
  to fit tight against the new scoops.&nbsp; I faired the new scoops =
into the=20
  cowl so that the airflow stays attached as long as possible.&nbsp;=20
  Additionally, I made a small plenum that provides both engine =
induction air=20
  and cooling air from the right hand armpit scoop, thereby eliminating =
the drag=20
  from the separate induction air scoop.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Results from all this work are very =
mixed... my=20
  speed didn't increase at all despite the drag reductions.&nbsp; You =
may laugh=20
  at my stupidity on this, but I neglected the fact that by not =
separating the=20
  air in the new small cooling/induction air plenum, I lost the ram air =
effect=20
  on the induction air side.&nbsp;&nbsp;I lost about 1.5 inches of =
maximum=20
  manifold pressure because I didn't separate the induction air from the =
cooling=20
  air on the right scoop.&nbsp; Alas, a project for this winter.&nbsp; =
The real=20
  problem, though, has been that with this new setup, my oil temps have =
become=20
  very difficult to manage.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From a cooling perspective, I've got =
the standard=20
  nose mounted oil cooler and cabin heat system.&nbsp; Before the =
modification,=20
  my oil temps rarely got up to 100 C (212 F), and my CHTs were all =
around 350 F=20
  +/- 25 degrees. Now, in a climb I can easily heat the oil to redline =
(242 F)=20
  if I'm not careful.&nbsp; After much thought and work, it appears that =
the=20
  leakage air that was slipping between the inner and outer armpit =
scoops and=20
  pressurizing the lower cowl also had a cooling effect on the accessory =
case,=20
  oil sump, and the oil temperature transducer.&nbsp; Tightening up the =
cowl,=20
  eliminating the "blow by".&nbsp;Reducing the size of the armpit scoops =
did not=20
  change the CHTs, but because I lost the airflow over the bottom engine =
and=20
  accessory case, my oil temps are now a problem.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>So, here are two questions for the =
reflector=20
  crowd:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1) How much, if any, cooling air is =
required for=20
  the accessory case and oil sump?&nbsp; It's logical that you'd want =
some, but,=20
  OTOH any air down there reduces the differential pressure from the =
plenum /=20
  top of the engine to the bottom... thereby potentially increasing =
CHTs.&nbsp;=20
  Thoughts?&nbsp; BTW, just to get the discussion going, I discussed =
this=20
  extensively with the Lycoming rep at OSH, who told me that he didn't =
think I=20
  needed any airflow over the sump/accessory case...</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2) My cabin heat box is the original, =
and I've=20
  always been unhappy with the push/pull cable for the babin heat =
flapper=20
  valve.&nbsp; Anyone put in a electrically actuated flapper =
valve?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To anyone who's acutally read this =
far...=20
  THANKS!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dave</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>600+ hours STD-RG N22DN</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dromott@adelphia.net =
href=3D"mailto:romott@adelphia.net">Ronnie=20
    Brown</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dreflector@tvbf.org=20
    href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 23, =
2003 2:02=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
REFLECTOR:Heating</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I was considering installing electric seat =
heaters but I=20
    decided to try a google search for 12vdc electric blankets and look =
what I=20
    found!&nbsp; <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.baproducts.com/rphb1101.htm">http://www.baproducts.com=
/rphb1101.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ronnie</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A title=3Dcdwoolston@earthlink.net=20
      href=3D"mailto:cdwoolston@earthlink.net">Craig and/or Denise =
Woolston</A>=20
      </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dreflector@tvbf.org=20
      href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October =
22, 2003=20
      1:20 AM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
REFLECTOR:Heating</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D890350805-22102003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Well I went way overboard but it was one of those great =
ideas that=20
      quickly multipled in to lots of hours and it's still not=20
      done...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D890350805-22102003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D890350805-22102003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>I made two plenums that will mount on canard =
bulkhead.&nbsp; They=20
      each have a hot and a cold source coming from front oil cooler and =
fresh=20
      air NACA respectively.&nbsp; Since the wife and I&nbsp;are never =
the same=20
      temperature a small diverter flap inside each plenum allows for =
individual=20
      temperature control.&nbsp; I plan to drill two holes in canard =
bulkhead=20
      that each plenum sits over the top.&nbsp; One hole will just allow =
the=20
      output to blow down on feet and the other will be routed to the =
instrument=20
      panel eyeball vent.&nbsp; Time will only tell if it will =
work.&nbsp; As=20
      for the rear seats I'm thinking seriously about electric seat =
warmers=20
      and/or electric blanket outlet. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D890350805-22102003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D890350805-22102003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Craig</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D890350805-22102003>
      <P><FONT size=3D2>!----------------------------!<BR>! Craig=20
      =
Woolston&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
      !<BR>! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; !<BR>!=20
      cdwoolston@earthlink.net&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      !<BR>!----------------------------!</FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
        size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
        reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]<B>On =
Behalf=20
        Of </B>velocityxlfg<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 20, 2003 =
9:07=20
        AM<BR><B>To:</B> reflector@tvbf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
        REFLECTOR:Heating<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can some one&nbsp;send me some =
pictures of=20
        what they did on there heating system. ducts, Heat exchanger =
routing of=20
        the</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>heat ducts.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Ect.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ron</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:velocityxl@fastmail.fm">velocityxl@fastmail.fm</A></FONT><=
/DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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