REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
Herb Sanders
reflector@tvbf.org
Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:33:57 -0600
Hi Dave, I agree with your understanding of Burt's intent.
I just pulled your chain because you said they never had, never would,
absolutely, etc etc and as others have attested, Dick flew all the rolling
and looping manuevers in airshows and Mike has done all those same
aerobatics, but not that I have witnessed in public airshows. Some of the
airshows in the early 80s were in the first Long (factory demo plane owned
by Burt), so Burt must have been willing at least for the demo. I have even
seen Burt fly an airshow - not very exciting - in the first Viggen in 1973.
I also flew in that airshow in a Cassutt (20 consecutive aileron rolls at
300' at 200mph) along with Mary Gaffney, Gene Soucy, Dwayne Cole, Corky
Fornof, Burt and others. A youngster like you may not remember those old
folks.
I'm anxious to get my top loader going - wish it would look as nice as
yours. My friend and building buddy, Bill Eck, finally decided on an engine
for his std rg & ordered an Aeorsport IO540 with 10:1 pistons, elec ign, etc
and I will help him with the install. Should be quite a performer.
Regards, Herb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nelson" <davenali@charter.net>
To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
> Hi, Herb! Good to hear from you!
>
> You are correct, I should have been more careful.
>
> Dick did fly airshow routines including some aerobatics, back shortly
after
> the Long was introduced. Burt never liked it, and eventually it was
> squashed (that's my recollection anyway). I remember Burt telling us how
he
> didn't design the Long or the Varieze for ANY areobatics. While I no
longer
> have the owners manual from my Varieze, I think I remember it explictly
> saying aerobatics were not allowed. Also, I don't ever remember Dick
doing
> anything like a hammerhead - more rolls & such.
>
> And, I never remember Mike ever doing aerobatics in his long, ever.
> Certainly not in an airshow.
>
> Bottom line is Burt never intended either the Vari or the Long for
> aerobatics. In fact, Burt would never tell people what G loading he
> designed the Vari for, specifically because he didn't want someone out
> testing the airplane to the limits. I'm pretty sure of my facts here...
> Herb, do you remember anything different?
>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herb Sanders" <hsanders@BELLSOUTH.NET>
> To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
>
>
> > Be careful, Dave. I have seen Dick Rutan fly at Oshkosh and Sun & Fun
in
> > the airshow several times. Tom Staggs and Jim Roberts have also been
> > airshow performers in their Longs in recent years.
> > Herb Sanders
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dave Nelson" <davenali@charter.net>
> > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
> >
> >
> > > Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Not only would Dick and Mike never do
> > airshow
> > > performances in their longs, they also never have and would strongly
> > > encourage you to not as well. I know them both. Do you?
> > >
> > > Dave
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Milton Merskey" <miltonm@airmail.net>
> > > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:19 AM
> > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Scott" <scott@tnstaafl.net>
> > > > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:48 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > There is an air show performer that does Aerobatics in a LongEZ.,
> I've
> > > > seen
> > > > > him perform a couple times.
> > > >
> > > > And those performers are called: Mike Melville and Dick Rutan
> > > >
> > > > milt
> > > > >
> > > > > Does hammerheads, loops etc..
> > > > >
> > > > > Geeee, I wonder how he survives doing that all year long, over and
> > over
> > > > again?
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott
> > > > >
> > > > > At 01:45 AM 11/11/2003, you wrote:
> > > > > >Jim,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Your post concerns me even more than Scott's!
> > > > > > See Velocity Views volume 7 Safety Corner by Duane on
> > > > > >deep stall avoidance and recovery; see more of the
> > > > > >same in volume 8 Safety Corner under "Deep Stall";
> > > > > >also see volume 12 Safety Corner under "Aerobatic
> > > > > >Warning."
> > > > > > Pls note that 1) it is possible to stall the the main
> > > > > >wing by flying outside of the normal flight envelope
> > > > > >(i.e. aerobatics), and 2) this can lead to a deep
> > > > > >stall - from which you might be able to recover - but
> > > > > >it probably WON'T "go right on through flat and deep
> > > > > >stalled on its way to straight down."
> > > > > > Glad to hear this was a non-event for you and your
> > > > > >buddies in other canards, but it doesn't seem
> > > > > >reasonable to imply the same will be true for the
> > > > > >Velocity given the factory's testing and warnings to
> > > > > >the contrary.
> > > > > > Anyway, my main point was how the main wing can be
> > > > > >stalled - not to open the deep stall recovery can.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Pat
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > Now here I had always thought that if your CG was
> > > > > > > within limits and you did that, the
> > > > > > > plane would go right on through flat and deep
> > > > > > > stalled on its way to straight down.
> > > > > > > I'm pretty sure I've done that in my EZ with no ill
> > > > > > > effects. I'm pretty sure about
> > > > > > > half the canard community has too.
> > > > > > > I think if that were true there'd be dead canards
> > > > > > > splattered all over the country ...
> > > > > > > Jim S.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pat Shea wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pssst!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you point the nose straight up, the airspeed
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > eventually bleed down to zero & the main wing will
> > > > > > > > stall. From there, the plane may even enter a deep
> > > > > > > > stall from which you can't recover. This is why
> > > > > > > > certain aerobatics (i.e. loops) are riskier in
> > > > > > > canards
> > > > > > > > than in tractor planes. A properly rigged & loaded
> > > > > > > > Velocity, like most canards, is only stall proof
> > > > > > > > within the "normal" flight envelope.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pat
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- Scott <scott@tnstaafl.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Well, this is completely contrary to all I have
> > > > > > > > >heard from people who fly these planes for a
> > > > > > > living.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Are you passing on rumor of have you actually
> > > > > > > done
> > > > > > > > >it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >>But even the current design can be pushed into a
> > > > > > > > >>wing stall if you work at it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > __________________________________
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Jim Sower
> > > > > > > Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
> > > > > > > Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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>
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