REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
reflector@tvbf.org
reflector@tvbf.org
Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:37:06 -0800
I know them both quite well.
Dick doesn't do airshows anymore, but he used to do them regularly, back in
the early 80's. In fact, the airfoil on his canard is one-of-a-kind (drawn
by Burt with a french curve on the back of an envelope) so Dick could do
sustained inverted flight.
One of Dicks best moves was to fly full speed down the runway, just a few
feet AGL, and cut the engine. He had enough momentum that he could pull
up, establish best glide, and fly a full pattern to land.
I was also part of the Berkut airshow act from beginning to end. I never
liked the high g 360 that ended up killing the plane and pilot, but I was
over-ruled.
There are two completely different things that we're discussing here. The
first is: can the canard drive the main wing to stall. The second is: once
stalled, is the CG far enough forward from the flat plate AC that the nose
will drop.
Think of an arrow. Now think of an arrow with feathers on the front as
well as the back.
You could build a canard such that the canard could drive the main wing to
stall, BUT would fall through. Then you'd effectively have what you have
in most airplanes - one that's stallable, but recoverable. Since these
airplanes are build with the intention that the canard CANT stall the main,
the usual cause of main wing stall is aft CG. IN THAT CASE, it goes into a
stable, non flying attitude that can't generally be recovered.
Mike Mellville DID recover one, once. He started at 10k feet. Ailerons
and elevators had no effect, but rudders moved the nose a little. He
started the nose swinging from side to side, increasing the excursion with
each pass. Eventually he got it swung far enough that the nose dropped
through sideways. But it took him 8000 feet to do it.
Yes, Canard aircraft are capable of limited, unstalled aerobatics. They
can even do brief inverted flight, like a 4 point roll. And if you do a
humpty-bump, you'd better pull elevator well before you run out of
airspeed, because the elevator isn't in the prop wash.
That said, it also depends on the airplane. Berkut will roll nicely, all
day long. Rolling a Long EZ is an adventure, you get upside down and the
roll slows down - you'd better have started with plenty of altitude and
about a 45 degree up line, or you'll tie the low altitude record.
I don't know what the Velocity rolls like. I suspect, like most 4 place
airplanes, it's significantly slower in roll than the 2 place equivalent
(the Long EZ). I'd also guess that the big winged version rolls slower
than the standard. If that's correct, I would NEVER do acro in one.
RR
</soapbox>
At 08:43 PM 11/11/03 -0600, you wrote:
>Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Not only would Dick and Mike never do airshow
>performances in their longs, they also never have and would strongly
>encourage you to not as well. I know them both. Do you?
>
>Dave
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Milton Merskey" <miltonm@airmail.net>
>To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:19 AM
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Scott" <scott@tnstaafl.net>
> > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:accidents/incidents
> >
> >
> > > There is an air show performer that does Aerobatics in a LongEZ., I've
> > seen
> > > him perform a couple times.
> >
> > And those performers are called: Mike Melville and Dick Rutan
> >
> > milt
> > >
> > > Does hammerheads, loops etc..
> > >
> > > Geeee, I wonder how he survives doing that all year long, over and over
> > again?
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > > At 01:45 AM 11/11/2003, you wrote:
> > > >Jim,
> > > >
> > > >Your post concerns me even more than Scott's!
> > > > See Velocity Views volume 7 Safety Corner by Duane on
> > > >deep stall avoidance and recovery; see more of the
> > > >same in volume 8 Safety Corner under "Deep Stall";
> > > >also see volume 12 Safety Corner under "Aerobatic
> > > >Warning."
> > > > Pls note that 1) it is possible to stall the the main
> > > >wing by flying outside of the normal flight envelope
> > > >(i.e. aerobatics), and 2) this can lead to a deep
> > > >stall - from which you might be able to recover - but
> > > >it probably WON'T "go right on through flat and deep
> > > >stalled on its way to straight down."
> > > > Glad to hear this was a non-event for you and your
> > > >buddies in other canards, but it doesn't seem
> > > >reasonable to imply the same will be true for the
> > > >Velocity given the factory's testing and warnings to
> > > >the contrary.
> > > > Anyway, my main point was how the main wing can be
> > > >stalled - not to open the deep stall recovery can.
> > > >
> > > >Pat
> > > >
> > > >--- Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> > > > > Now here I had always thought that if your CG was
> > > > > within limits and you did that, the
> > > > > plane would go right on through flat and deep
> > > > > stalled on its way to straight down.
> > > > > I'm pretty sure I've done that in my EZ with no ill
> > > > > effects. I'm pretty sure about
> > > > > half the canard community has too.
> > > > > I think if that were true there'd be dead canards
> > > > > splattered all over the country ...
> > > > > Jim S.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat Shea wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Pssst!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you point the nose straight up, the airspeed
> > > > > will
> > > > > > eventually bleed down to zero & the main wing will
> > > > > > stall. From there, the plane may even enter a deep
> > > > > > stall from which you can't recover. This is why
> > > > > > certain aerobatics (i.e. loops) are riskier in
> > > > > canards
> > > > > > than in tractor planes. A properly rigged & loaded
> > > > > > Velocity, like most canards, is only stall proof
> > > > > > within the "normal" flight envelope.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pat
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Scott <scott@tnstaafl.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Well, this is completely contrary to all I have
> > > > > > >heard from people who fly these planes for a
> > > > > living.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Are you passing on rumor of have you actually
> > > > > done
> > > > > > >it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>But even the current design can be pushed into a
> > > > > > >>wing stall if you work at it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________
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> > > > > --
> > > > > Jim Sower
> > > > > Crossville, TN; Chapter 5
> > > > > Long-EZ N83RT, Velocity N4095T
> > > > >
> > > > >
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