REFLECTOR:Rotarys, Lycosaurs, etc.

Al Gietzen reflector@tvbf.org
Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:03:26 -0800


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Jim;

I don't think I'm applying a double standard, but I may not have been
clear in some of the comments.  I don't disagree with the things you
say; sounds something like things I wrote 2-3 years ago.  But since that
time I have looked for more data on engine failure issues related to
accidents and forced landings, and if you try to argue auto conversion
reliability vs certified AC engines with data; you'll find yourself in a
tough spot.  We haven't proven ourselves yet.

But you know I wouldn't be spending all the time and effort on this
rotary installation if I didn't believe that I could achieve better
performance, cost, and reliability, and other operating advantages as
well.  I just wanted to make the point that it isn't easy and it isn't
for everyone.

<... another engine with valves, connecting rods and crankshaft, stress
it to the max, run it at high speeds, and add reduction gearing; and put
it in your airplane ....> 

I wanted to clarify here that I was not speaking of piston engine
conversions in general; but specifically the small displacement subi
pushed to 300 hp.  There are things that can be done to the engine to
handle high power levels, but there is no track record of longevity at
those levels.  So for me to eliminate it from my list was my judgment
about it after gathering whatever info I could.  In this regard it seems
rotaries have proven to be more robust when pushed (turbo and high RPM).
Racers run the 3-rotor at more than 3 times the HP than I expect from
it, and run it up to nearly double the RPM.  And they run it for most or
all of season while the piston guys can expect to overhaul after a race
or two.  But there is no doubt that the test programs on modern auto
engines proves that all those parts can be jerked around reliably.

<... it is very difficult to do a custom auto conversion installation
and achieve a reliability as high as Lyc or Continental ...> 

"Custom" being the key word here.  Actually, over the past several
years, more standard and proven conversion packages have been produced
and "packages" are becoming more reliable by leaps and bounds. 

I hope that's true, but even on these the jury is still out until hours
are accumulated.  As you know the Powersport installation in the
Velocity failed due to a broken exhaust pipe which was not a part
supplied by Powersport.  Resulted in a force landing and damge to the
plane.  It is one on those one-of-a-kind things I mentioned.

<...  in a certified aircraft ...> 
When did we start talking about certified aircraft.  How about Lycs and
Continentals in homebuilt aircraft?  Why is it that they seem so much
less reliable than the same engines installed in certified planes? 

I specifically added that phrase to distinguish between engines in
certified airplanes and those in homebuilds.  Yeah, homebuild
installations of certified engines have more engine related issues.

I thought long and hard about the benefits of just bolting on a
Lycoming; but I couldn't.  I knew that I would never be happy with that
old, vibrating technology.  Hey; that's just me.  So far; so good on
this engine.  It's been a wonderful challenge, the dyno runs were good;
the installation nearly complete - but I haven't flown it yet.  Have I
stepped out of my shop to watch a plane flying overhead and questioned
my decision?  A couple of times - for about a microsecond.

Al


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<body bgcolor=3Dwhite background=3D"cid:image001.gif@01C3A3E8.A3639B20" =
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link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'margin-left:15.0pt;margin-top:15.0pt' id=3DridBody>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Jim;</span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I
don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m applying a double standard, but I may not =
have been
clear in some of the comments.&nbsp; I don&#8217;t disagree with the =
things you
say; sounds something like things I wrote 2-3 years ago. &nbsp;But since =
that time
I have looked for more data on engine failure issues related to =
accidents and forced
landings, and if you try to argue auto conversion reliability vs =
certified AC
engines with data; you&#8217;ll find yourself in a tough spot.&nbsp; We =
haven&#8217;t
proven ourselves yet.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>But
you know I wouldn&#8217;t be spending all the time and effort on this =
rotary
installation if I didn&#8217;t believe that I could achieve better =
performance,
cost, and reliability, and other operating advantages as well. &nbsp;I =
just
wanted to make the point that it isn&#8217;t easy and it isn&#8217;t for
everyone.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&lt;... =
another engine
with valves, connecting rods and crankshaft, stress it to the max, run =
it at
high speeds, and add reduction gearing; and put it in your airplane =
....&gt;</span></font>
</p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I wanted to clarify here that I was not
speaking of piston engine conversions in general; but specifically the =
small
displacement subi pushed to 300 hp. &nbsp;There are things that can be =
done to
the engine to handle high power levels, but there is no track record of
longevity at those levels. &nbsp;So for me to eliminate it from my list =
was my
judgment about it after gathering whatever info I could. &nbsp;In this =
regard
it seems rotaries have proven to be more robust when pushed (turbo and =
high
RPM).&nbsp; Racers run the 3-rotor at more than 3 times the HP than I =
expect from
it, and run it up to nearly double the RPM.&nbsp; And they run it for =
most or
all of season while the piston guys can expect to overhaul after a race =
or two.&nbsp;
But there is no doubt that the test programs on modern auto engines =
proves that
all those parts can be jerked around reliably.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&lt;... it is =
very
difficult to do a custom auto conversion installation and achieve a =
reliability
as high as Lyc or Continental ...&gt;</span></font> </p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>&quot;Custom&q=
uot;
being the key word here.&nbsp; Actually, over the past several years, =
more
standard and proven conversion packages have been produced and
&quot;packages&quot; are becoming more reliable by leaps and =
bounds.</span></font>
</p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I hope that&#8217;s true, but even on =
these the
jury is still out until hours are accumulated.&nbsp; As you know the =
Powersport
installation in the Velocity failed due to a broken exhaust pipe which =
was not
a part supplied by Powersport.&nbsp; Resulted in a force landing and =
damge to
the plane.&nbsp; It is one on those one-of-a-kind things I =
mentioned.</span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>&lt;...&nbsp; =
in a
certified aircraft ...&gt;</span></font> <br>
When did we start talking about certified aircraft.&nbsp; How about Lycs =
and
Continentals in <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>homebuilt</span></b>
aircraft?&nbsp; Why is it that they seem so much less reliable than the =
same
engines installed in certified planes? </p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I specifically added that phrase to =
distinguish
between engines in certified airplanes and those in homebuilds. =
&nbsp;Yeah, homebuild
installations of certified engines have more engine related =
issues.</span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I thought long and hard about the =
benefits of
just bolting on a Lycoming; but I couldn&#8217;t.&nbsp; I knew that I =
would
never be happy with that old, vibrating technology.&nbsp; Hey; =
that&#8217;s
just me.&nbsp; So far; so good on this engine.&nbsp; It&#8217;s been a
wonderful challenge, the dyno runs were good; the installation nearly =
complete &#8211;
but I haven&#8217;t flown it yet.&nbsp; Have I stepped out of my shop to =
watch
a plane flying overhead and questioned my decision? &nbsp;A couple of =
times &#8211;
for about a microsecond.</span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Al</span></font></p>

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