From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 01:28:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:28:17 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring References: Message-ID: <002901c30f78$90af3700$8f09f5d1@dr> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C30F46.4532F280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got my alternator a few years ago from the good people at NU AVIATION = (Brian and his Mom). It came with a relay and an overvoltage sensor. It = also came with instructions. The green wire is the alternator field and = the yellow wire is for an idiot light on the panel. The overvoltage = sensor and the relay go in the field circuit. Apparently the overvoltage = sensor is a backup for the voltage regulator. When overvoltage sensor = senses an overvoltage, it opens the relay. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hiroo Umeno=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 2:19 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring Here I am, still doing wiring. My alternator I got from Franklin guys in CO got me scratching my = head. Many of the airplane wiring references refer to three major = connections to the alternator. Airframe GND, Alternator Field, and = Alternator Out. Now, as I look at my alternator, there appears to be four connections. = One is the GND which essentially is the casing bolted down to the = engine. Then there is a terminal that is marked with '+' symbol that I = figured is the OUT judging from the size of the bolt and nut on the = terminal. Now, on the side, there is a plastic connector that has two, = yes two, wires coming out. One is yellow and the other is green. They = are marked 'S' and 'L'. I am guessing one of them is the 'Field' but = which one? Has anyone got this figured out? Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C30F46.4532F280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I got my alternator a few years ago from the good = people at NU=20 AVIATION (Brian and his Mom). It came with a relay and an = overvoltage=20 sensor. It also came with instructions. The green wire is the alternator = field=20 and the yellow wire is for an idiot light on the panel. The overvoltage = sensor=20 and the relay go in the field circuit. Apparently the overvoltage sensor = is a=20 backup for the voltage regulator. When overvoltage sensor senses an = overvoltage, it opens the relay.
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Hiroo=20 Umeno
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 = 2:19=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator=20 wiring

Here I am, still doing=20 wiring…

 

My alternator I got from = Franklin guys in=20 CO got me scratching my head.  Many of the airplane wiring = references=20 refer to three major connections to the alternator.  Airframe = GND,=20 Alternator Field, and Alternator Out.

 

Now, as I look at my = alternator,=20 there appears to be four connections.  One is the GND which = essentially=20 is the casing bolted down to the engine.  Then there is a = terminal that=20 is marked with ‘+’ symbol that I figured is the OUT = judging from the size of=20 the bolt and nut on the terminal.  Now, on the side, there is a = plastic=20 connector that has two, yes two, wires coming out.  One is yellow = and the=20 other is green.  They are marked ‘S’ and = ‘L’.  I am guessing one of=20 them is the ‘Field’ but which one?

 

Has anyone got this = figured=20 out?

 

Hiroo

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C30F46.4532F280-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 01:30:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:30:07 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning References: Message-ID: <003701c30f78$d1ffcbc0$8f09f5d1@dr> GOO-OFF from Ace Hardware work fine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:24 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning > After I installed my windows, I pulled off the duct tape. There were small > spots where the adhesive decided to stay with the window instead of come off > with the tape. Any suggestions on good stuff to take the goop off with. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 01:36:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:36:38 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in References: <001e01c30f5e$0993ced0$9f7cce18@cj209446d> Message-ID: <3EB06C16.6080706@tnstaafl.net> It sure would be nice if it was held in the SouthWest... Scott Robin Ream wrote: > Hello Guys! > > Well, everything you've heard from Chris is absolutely true, and there's > going to be a lot more than that before it's all over. Southwest Regional > Fly-In, founded by the late master, Tony Bingelis, is rapidly on it's way to > becoming an event like Sun and Fun except for one thing. -- It's not as > dreadfully long, and it's much less expensive. Although this is it's first > year at New Braunfels, Texas (BAZ,) it has already broken all records for > the event by multiple times! We expect it to take a few years to mature > into a national major among airshows, but there's absolutely no doubt that > it will. -- We have the epic real estate trilogy: LOCATION, LOCATION, > LOCATION !!! We're 30 minutes from San Antonio, 30 minutes from Austin, and > just a short hop from Dallas/Ft. Worth, and Houston. Take a look on Air Nav > at BAZ to see one pretty airport that is the new permanent home of the > event. > I don't think the Velocity factory will be here this time unless Duane > has changed the plans recently, but it wouldn't hurt for you guys to tell > him about what he's missing :-) I don't think they realized early on in > their calendar of events what the Southwest Regional Fly-In was developing > into. - It's caught a lot of people by surprise! In the meantime it would > be cool if everyone flying a Velocity in would give Chris a call to let him > know to expect you, and if enough of you are going to come down for the > gracious Texas hospitality and the great show, maybe he could arrange for > all you to be parked in one conspicuous show-off area :-) Maybe next year > we could all meet up at Stinson Field on the south side of San Antonio and > fly into the airshow in formation. Wow, would that be an eye popper! > Hey Duane, I know you monitor this newsletter, what do you think? How > many Velocities could we put in the air next year? If RV's com in together > it just looks like a bunch of little airplanes coming in to land, but if > there were a few dozen Velocities; well that's something you have to > witness... > > Tailwinds, > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Barber" > To: "Reflector@Tvbf. Org" ; > ; > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:56 AM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in > > > >>Ok, just heard some info about the Southwest Regional Fly-in >>(SWRFI..."swerfy") on May 17 - 18. In the recent past this event was in >>Abilene, Texas during the fall and was not the most attended event > > (nothing > >>against Abilene, but I have no desire to go there). Before Abilene it was >>in Kerrville and was a pretty good event from what I am told. However, in >>Abilene it only had about 20 venders attend. >> >>Ok, here is the good part. The SWRFI has been moved to the spring and is >>now in New Braunfels, Texas. Unlike Abilene, IMHO, New Braunfels is a >>excellent destination even without an fly-in/air show. Pres. Bush keeps >>coming to Crawford in the area....but the TFR IS NOT around this airport.. >>It is in the most beautiful part of Texas (I am biased, I went to college > > a > >>few miles north), is home of the worlds largest water park >>(Schliterbaun...Sp?), many antique shops. The World Famous "Greune Hall" >>(pronounced Green)....you know the place....John Travolta did his angle >>dance there in the movie "Michael"...it has been in several other movies > > as > >>well), the busiest recreational river in the US (the Guadalupe) and many, >>many other things for you, the S/O, friends and family to do. >> >>AND....from the last report I got yesterday, it has 96 vendors confirmed, >>including Vans and Aircraft Spruce among others. If you have ever been to >>the central Texas Hill Country, you may have some insight as to one reason >>this may become a premier event....look out Sun & Fun >> >>My EAA Chapter, Chapter 12 from Houston, will be guiding aircraft to >>parking...so wave as you go by. >> >>More info can be had at http://www.swrfi.org/default.htm >> >>If you don't already have plans for mid-May.....I think this would be > > worth > >>you time. >> >>All the best, >> >>Chris >>Houston >>Velocity SE/FG with yoke >>www.LoneStarVelocity.com >> >>Christopher Barber >>Attorney and Counselor at Law >>11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E >>Suite 103 >>Houston, Texas 77089-4755 >>281-464-LAWS (5297) >>281-754-4168 (Fax) >> >>CBarber@TexasAttorney.net >>www.TexasAttorney.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 01:41:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:41:21 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Headset jack wiring References: <007b01c30ebe$fefeea80$0100a8c0@cinci.rr.com> Message-ID: <3EB06D31.2080607@tnstaafl.net> Brett, I think the AeroElectric web site has some hints. His book is cheap and a must for any homebuilder doing his own wiring. Think about powering ANR headsets which may require a 24/22 awg 12 vdc wire to each headset location. You could run the wire and stub it off for future upgrades. Scott Brett Ferrell wrote: > Is there a good place to find out everything you need to know to wire > your headet and microphone jacks? I've found some info, and it looks > like I should run 20 ga shielded wire to each, 3 strand to the mic and 2 > strand to the headset, and solder them, but is it that simple? > > Brett From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 02:28:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (N.V.Frederick) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:28:12 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning References: Message-ID: <002c01c30f80$eed6f040$e5c262d8@bldrdoc.gov> Andy, I have found the following to work quite well. I use my wife's furniture polish "Old English....", It's an oily stuff that really does soften tape adhesive. It works especially well on that hardened masking tape adhesive that has dried onto most anything. I really don't think it will hurt your windows. It should be put on liberally and trapped with some Saran Wrap or other poly-film. Let it sit overnight and the next day you will most likely be able to just wipe that old adhesive off your window surfaces. nolan frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:24 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning > After I installed my windows, I pulled off the duct tape. There were small > spots where the adhesive decided to stay with the window instead of come off > with the tape. Any suggestions on good stuff to take the goop off with. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 03:34:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:34:46 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:pegboard hooks References: <20030430201907.66438.qmail@web41305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002e01c30f8a$3b46b920$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Thanks Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Agnew" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:pegboard hooks > Yes it was, at HTTP://WWW.McFeelys.Com. Search for TL-3500 > and you won't be sorry, they DON'T come out unless you want > them to. > > Jim > > Jim > --- Wayne Owens wrote: > > Was it you Jim Agnew who found the source for latching > > pegboard hooks? > > Anyone have the source? > > Wayne > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 04:16:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jay Yu) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:16:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Larry. Good info here and the previous one. I just retighted everything. Since the weather is not helping, I can't push my plane outside for testing. But even if I don't get the supposed level of vacuum, it should improve as you said. I called Scott Swing and he said the same thing. It's kind of (re)breakin due to the switch of direction. Will let you all know as time passes. Jay N86YU RGE Franklin/MT -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Laurence Coen Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 10:38 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues The SigmaTek pump can run in either direction but I remember a statement to the effect that if you run it one direction and then switch the vanes will take a wear set and may not seat well going the other way. This is the case with the Franklin, plus it is turning at about half the former speed. Normal cruise RPM should keep you in the green just fine and if you do have vane set problem, it should improve with use. Larry Coen SE-RG Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 10:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > Maybe its time for that "All Electric Panel"? > > File that antiquated suck machine in the circular file? > > Scott > > Jay Yu wrote: > > Hi Wayne, > > > > Thanks for the input. Based on the Franklin manual, the accessary drive pad > > on which I installed the vacuum pump has a drive ratio of 0.847 which is > > certainly less than 2 1/2. I wonder what vacuum other builders with the same > > configuration are getting. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jay > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Wayne Owens > > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:59 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > > > > Seems like the Airborne customer service folks told me that pump RPM should > > be 2 1/2 x crank rpm. Verify that. Can you crank your prop over by hand and > > count pump revolutions to determine what ratio you are driving it at? > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jay Yu" > > To: ; "mike deeter" > > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 10:42 PM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > > > > > >>Hi Mike and All Franklin Drivers, > >> > >>I know that I am late in the game on this. I just installed my new fuel > > > > pump > > > >>that's working well. But, like Mike's original configuration, my SigmaTek > >>vacuum pump used to be on fuel pump drive and now has been moved to rear > >>pilot side. When I started the engine, I didn't get any vacuum at idle > >>speed. I only got about 3" HG when the engine was running 1800RPM. The > > > > GREEN > > > >>arc is about 4.5" to 5.5" HG. How much vacuum can you get and at what RPM > >>(Mike?) What's the lowest vacuum we need for safe flight? > >> > >>My vacuum pump did have about 80 hours in original configuration. In that > >>configuration, the vacuum was in GREEN easily (may be a little over 1000 > >>RPM). With this new installation, I adjusted the vacuum regulator (both > > > > ways > > > >>to extreme) but still cann't get more than 3" at about 1800 RPM. > >> > >>Any and all hints will be greatly appreciated. > >> > >>Jay Yu > >>N86YU > >>Velocity RGE > >>Franklin/MT > >> > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com > >>[mailto:owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com]On Behalf Of mike deeter > >>Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:17 PM > >>To: reflector@tvbf.org > >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > >> > >> > >>Franklin drivers: > >> > >>OK , so now I'm answering my own emails. > >> > >>I just got off the phone w/ my engine builder, Pete > >>Askeland at Franklin Aircraft Engines, Inc. (FAEI) in > >>Colorado. > >> > >>Referring to the problems I've outlined in my email > >>below. If you have a bidirectional vacuum pump you > >>will have no problem; just switch the input and output > >>lines. > >> > >>If you don't have a bidirectional pump you will > >>obviously have to get a new vacuum pump. > >> > >>As for the speed of the accessory pad: FAEI has the > >>STC for Cessnas w/ Franklins and they run their vacuum > >>pumps off the accessory pad in question, i.e. no > >>problem running vacuum off the pad on the pilot side > >>near the prop. > >> > >>Sorry to get us all excited. > >> > >>Mike > >> > >>--- mike deeter wrote: > >> > >>>Franklin drivers: > >>> > >>>Well, I got my fuel pump installed and fuel lines > >>>redone. I only needed to hoist the engine for > >>>taking > >>>the old one off. I was able to reinstall the new > >>>one > >>>w/ the engine bolted tightly to the firewall. > >>> > >>>I installed the vacuum pump on the pilot side accy > >>>pad > >>>near the prop. Unfortunately, this may not work as > >>>well as PZL intended. Larry Coen pointed out the > >>>accy > >>>pads near the prop turn 0.847 times crank CW while > >>>the > >>>accy pad on the rear of the engine (fuel pump mount) > >>>turns 1.65 times crank CCW. > >>> > >>>This could be a problems (ahem, issue). > >>> > >>>The vacuum pump will now turn more slowly and > >>>opposite > >>>the way it previously turned (it previously was on > >>>the > >>>fuel pump drive). I called SigmaTek about this and > >>>they said, though the pump is bi-directional, the > >>>direction change is significant because it gets a > >>>wear > >>>pattern after awhile and changing could shorten the > >>>life. I only have 12 hours on mine so they said it > >>>should be OK. The other problem is they said their > >>>pump needs about 1500 RPM to get good vacuum (gauge > >>>in > >>>the green) so at 0.847:1 I'd need around 1800 crank > >>>RPM to get good vacuum. Hmmm. > >>> > >>>The SigmaTek guy did say that other pumps on the > >>>market only need 1200 RPM to get up to speed so only > >>>would need around 1400 crank RPM to get good vacuum. > >>> > >>>Still not the best situation. > >>> > >>>I hope to get some comments from the Franklin guys > >>>to > >>>see what ideas are out there for solving this > >>>problem. > >>> Can't go running around w/o vacuum. > >>> > >>>Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. > >>> > >>>Mike Deeter > >>>N2011P Franklin RG E > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>===== > >>>******************************************* > >>>Mike Deeter > >>>N2011 Test Pilot > >>>iguanamagic@yahoo.com > >>>http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org > >>>******************************************* > >>> > >>>__________________________________________________ > >>>Do you Yahoo!? > >>>HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > >>>http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > >>>- > >>>To change your email address, send an email to > >>>majordomo@tvbf.org with the body: > >>>subscribe reflector > >>>unsubscribe reflector > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >> > >>===== > >>******************************************* > >>Mike Deeter > >>N2011 Test Pilot > >>iguanamagic@yahoo.com > >>http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org > >>******************************************* > >> > >>__________________________________________________ > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >>HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > >>http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > >>- > >>To change your email address, send an email to majordomo@tvbf.org with the > >>body: > >>subscribe reflector > >>unsubscribe reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 04:16:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (texasattorney.net) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:16:52 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in In-Reply-To: <3EB06C16.6080706@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Well, seems like you have your work cut out for you....for you West Regional guys. All the best, Chris -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:37 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in It sure would be nice if it was held in the SouthWest... Scott Robin Ream wrote: > Hello Guys! > > Well, everything you've heard from Chris is absolutely true, and there's > going to be a lot more than that before it's all over. Southwest Regional > Fly-In, founded by the late master, Tony Bingelis, is rapidly on it's way to > becoming an event like Sun and Fun except for one thing. -- It's not as > dreadfully long, and it's much less expensive. Although this is it's first > year at New Braunfels, Texas (BAZ,) it has already broken all records for > the event by multiple times! We expect it to take a few years to mature > into a national major among airshows, but there's absolutely no doubt that > it will. -- We have the epic real estate trilogy: LOCATION, LOCATION, > LOCATION !!! We're 30 minutes from San Antonio, 30 minutes from Austin, and > just a short hop from Dallas/Ft. Worth, and Houston. Take a look on Air Nav > at BAZ to see one pretty airport that is the new permanent home of the > event. > I don't think the Velocity factory will be here this time unless Duane > has changed the plans recently, but it wouldn't hurt for you guys to tell > him about what he's missing :-) I don't think they realized early on in > their calendar of events what the Southwest Regional Fly-In was developing > into. - It's caught a lot of people by surprise! In the meantime it would > be cool if everyone flying a Velocity in would give Chris a call to let him > know to expect you, and if enough of you are going to come down for the > gracious Texas hospitality and the great show, maybe he could arrange for > all you to be parked in one conspicuous show-off area :-) Maybe next year > we could all meet up at Stinson Field on the south side of San Antonio and > fly into the airshow in formation. Wow, would that be an eye popper! > Hey Duane, I know you monitor this newsletter, what do you think? How > many Velocities could we put in the air next year? If RV's com in together > it just looks like a bunch of little airplanes coming in to land, but if > there were a few dozen Velocities; well that's something you have to > witness... > > Tailwinds, > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Barber" > To: "Reflector@Tvbf. Org" ; > ; > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:56 AM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in > > > >>Ok, just heard some info about the Southwest Regional Fly-in >>(SWRFI..."swerfy") on May 17 - 18. In the recent past this event was in >>Abilene, Texas during the fall and was not the most attended event > > (nothing > >>against Abilene, but I have no desire to go there). Before Abilene it was >>in Kerrville and was a pretty good event from what I am told. However, in >>Abilene it only had about 20 venders attend. >> >>Ok, here is the good part. The SWRFI has been moved to the spring and is >>now in New Braunfels, Texas. Unlike Abilene, IMHO, New Braunfels is a >>excellent destination even without an fly-in/air show. Pres. Bush keeps >>coming to Crawford in the area....but the TFR IS NOT around this airport.. >>It is in the most beautiful part of Texas (I am biased, I went to college > > a > >>few miles north), is home of the worlds largest water park >>(Schliterbaun...Sp?), many antique shops. The World Famous "Greune Hall" >>(pronounced Green)....you know the place....John Travolta did his angle >>dance there in the movie "Michael"...it has been in several other movies > > as > >>well), the busiest recreational river in the US (the Guadalupe) and many, >>many other things for you, the S/O, friends and family to do. >> >>AND....from the last report I got yesterday, it has 96 vendors confirmed, >>including Vans and Aircraft Spruce among others. If you have ever been to >>the central Texas Hill Country, you may have some insight as to one reason >>this may become a premier event....look out Sun & Fun >> >>My EAA Chapter, Chapter 12 from Houston, will be guiding aircraft to >>parking...so wave as you go by. >> >>More info can be had at http://www.swrfi.org/default.htm >> >>If you don't already have plans for mid-May.....I think this would be > > worth > >>you time. >> >>All the best, >> >>Chris >>Houston >>Velocity SE/FG with yoke >>www.LoneStarVelocity.com >> >>Christopher Barber >>Attorney and Counselor at Law >>11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E >>Suite 103 >>Houston, Texas 77089-4755 >>281-464-LAWS (5297) >>281-754-4168 (Fax) >> >>CBarber@TexasAttorney.net >>www.TexasAttorney.net >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 05:17:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:17:16 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Golden West Regional Fly-in References: Message-ID: <000501c30f98$8d5c7c00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> For those a bit further west, there's the Golden West fly-in in northern California, June 20, 21 and 22. See http://www.goldenwestflyin.org/gwaahome.shtml Velocity Aircraft will be there again this year, along with over 40 other exhibitors! ----- Original Message ----- From: "texasattorney.net" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in > Well, seems like you have your work cut out for you....for you West Regional > guys. > > All the best, > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:37 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in > > > It sure would be nice if it was held in the SouthWest... > > Scott > > Robin Ream wrote: > > Hello Guys! > > > > Well, everything you've heard from Chris is absolutely true, and > there's > > going to be a lot more than that before it's all over. Southwest Regional > > Fly-In, founded by the late master, Tony Bingelis, is rapidly on it's way > to > > becoming an event like Sun and Fun except for one thing. -- It's not as > > dreadfully long, and it's much less expensive. Although this is it's > first > > year at New Braunfels, Texas (BAZ,) it has already broken all records for > > the event by multiple times! We expect it to take a few years to mature > > into a national major among airshows, but there's absolutely no doubt that > > it will. -- We have the epic real estate trilogy: LOCATION, LOCATION, > > LOCATION !!! We're 30 minutes from San Antonio, 30 minutes from Austin, > and > > just a short hop from Dallas/Ft. Worth, and Houston. Take a look on Air > Nav > > at BAZ to see one pretty airport that is the new permanent home of the > > event. > > I don't think the Velocity factory will be here this time unless Duane > > has changed the plans recently, but it wouldn't hurt for you guys to tell > > him about what he's missing :-) I don't think they realized early on in > > their calendar of events what the Southwest Regional Fly-In was developing > > into. - It's caught a lot of people by surprise! In the meantime it > would > > be cool if everyone flying a Velocity in would give Chris a call to let > him > > know to expect you, and if enough of you are going to come down for the > > gracious Texas hospitality and the great show, maybe he could arrange for > > all you to be parked in one conspicuous show-off area :-) Maybe next year > > we could all meet up at Stinson Field on the south side of San Antonio and > > fly into the airshow in formation. Wow, would that be an eye popper! > > Hey Duane, I know you monitor this newsletter, what do you think? How > > many Velocities could we put in the air next year? If RV's com in > together > > it just looks like a bunch of little airplanes coming in to land, but if > > there were a few dozen Velocities; well that's something you have to > > witness... > > > > Tailwinds, > > Robin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher Barber" > > To: "Reflector@Tvbf. Org" ; > > ; > > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:56 AM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Southwest Regional Fly-in > > > > > > > >>Ok, just heard some info about the Southwest Regional Fly-in > >>(SWRFI..."swerfy") on May 17 - 18. In the recent past this event was in > >>Abilene, Texas during the fall and was not the most attended event > > > > (nothing > > > >>against Abilene, but I have no desire to go there). Before Abilene it was > >>in Kerrville and was a pretty good event from what I am told. However, in > >>Abilene it only had about 20 venders attend. > >> > >>Ok, here is the good part. The SWRFI has been moved to the spring and is > >>now in New Braunfels, Texas. Unlike Abilene, IMHO, New Braunfels is a > >>excellent destination even without an fly-in/air show. Pres. Bush keeps > >>coming to Crawford in the area....but the TFR IS NOT around this airport.. > >>It is in the most beautiful part of Texas (I am biased, I went to college > > > > a > > > >>few miles north), is home of the worlds largest water park > >>(Schliterbaun...Sp?), many antique shops. The World Famous "Greune Hall" > >>(pronounced Green)....you know the place....John Travolta did his angle > >>dance there in the movie "Michael"...it has been in several other movies > > > > as > > > >>well), the busiest recreational river in the US (the Guadalupe) and many, > >>many other things for you, the S/O, friends and family to do. > >> > >>AND....from the last report I got yesterday, it has 96 vendors confirmed, > >>including Vans and Aircraft Spruce among others. If you have ever been to > >>the central Texas Hill Country, you may have some insight as to one reason > >>this may become a premier event....look out Sun & Fun > >> > >>My EAA Chapter, Chapter 12 from Houston, will be guiding aircraft to > >>parking...so wave as you go by. > >> > >>More info can be had at http://www.swrfi.org/default.htm > >> > >>If you don't already have plans for mid-May.....I think this would be > > > > worth > > > >>you time. > >> > >>All the best, > >> > >>Chris > >>Houston > >>Velocity SE/FG with yoke > >>www.LoneStarVelocity.com > >> > >>Christopher Barber > >>Attorney and Counselor at Law > >>11930 S Sam Houston Pkwy E > >>Suite 103 > >>Houston, Texas 77089-4755 > >>281-464-LAWS (5297) > >>281-754-4168 (Fax) > >> > >>CBarber@TexasAttorney.net > >>www.TexasAttorney.net > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 15:56:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 09:56:04 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:This pains me terribly... Message-ID: but I must sell my project. The company I work for is going to close their doors (I just found out last night) within 30 days. Believe me, I was completely caught off guard and now I have no choice. $46,000 for the project includes: Micro-Encoder Micro-Monitor Navaid auto pilot io360 with engine install kit (Wentworth engine still has 1 year warranty) Finished seats (grey), red carpeting and headline Fastbuild wings (by Dan Maher) and Fast build fuse Many extras (whelen strobes -- full) to much to list. I just cried when I knew I had to sell her. If you know someone, please let me know... -Don www.hammsaircraft.com _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 16:25:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (mike deeter) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501152536.49585.qmail@web40805.mail.yahoo.com> Jay et al: I just got back on the net after some travel (business, darn it, not Velocity). My update on my vacuum. I gradually adjusted my regulator to get 'middle of the green' on my gauge anytime I'm flying, certainly 1800 and above. Now, my only issue is that it isn't easy or convenient to reliably set the DG on the ground prior to takeoff into IFR conditions. I guess one could do a runup sitting on the runway just prior to the takeoff run. That'd probably get it done. Otherwise, I'm satisfied I'm getting good vacuum during all flight ops. Mike Deeter --- Jay Yu wrote: > Hi Wayne, > > Thanks for the input. Based on the Franklin manual, > the accessary drive pad > on which I installed the vacuum pump has a drive > ratio of 0.847 which is > certainly less than 2 1/2. I wonder what vacuum > other builders with the same > configuration are getting. > > Thanks, > > Jay > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Wayne Owens > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:59 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > Seems like the Airborne customer service folks told > me that pump RPM should > be 2 1/2 x crank rpm. Verify that. Can you crank > your prop over by hand and > count pump revolutions to determine what ratio you > are driving it at? > Wayne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay Yu" > To: ; "mike deeter" > > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 10:42 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > > Hi Mike and All Franklin Drivers, > > > > I know that I am late in the game on this. I just > installed my new fuel > pump > > that's working well. But, like Mike's original > configuration, my SigmaTek > > vacuum pump used to be on fuel pump drive and now > has been moved to rear > > pilot side. When I started the engine, I didn't > get any vacuum at idle > > speed. I only got about 3" HG when the engine was > running 1800RPM. The > GREEN > > arc is about 4.5" to 5.5" HG. How much vacuum can > you get and at what RPM > > (Mike?) What's the lowest vacuum we need for safe > flight? > > > > My vacuum pump did have about 80 hours in original > configuration. In that > > configuration, the vacuum was in GREEN easily (may > be a little over 1000 > > RPM). With this new installation, I adjusted the > vacuum regulator (both > ways > > to extreme) but still cann't get more than 3" at > about 1800 RPM. > > > > Any and all hints will be greatly appreciated. > > > > Jay Yu > > N86YU > > Velocity RGE > > Franklin/MT > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com > > [mailto:owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com]On Behalf Of > mike deeter > > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:17 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > > > > Franklin drivers: > > > > OK , so now I'm answering my own emails. > > > > I just got off the phone w/ my engine builder, > Pete > > Askeland at Franklin Aircraft Engines, Inc. (FAEI) > in > > Colorado. > > > > Referring to the problems I've outlined in my > email > > below. If you have a bidirectional vacuum pump > you > > will have no problem; just switch the input and > output > > lines. > > > > If you don't have a bidirectional pump you will > > obviously have to get a new vacuum pump. > > > > As for the speed of the accessory pad: FAEI has > the > > STC for Cessnas w/ Franklins and they run their > vacuum > > pumps off the accessory pad in question, i.e. no > > problem running vacuum off the pad on the pilot > side > > near the prop. > > > > Sorry to get us all excited. > > > > Mike > > > > --- mike deeter wrote: > > > Franklin drivers: > > > > > > Well, I got my fuel pump installed and fuel > lines > > > redone. I only needed to hoist the engine for > > > taking > > > the old one off. I was able to reinstall the > new > > > one > > > w/ the engine bolted tightly to the firewall. > > > > > > I installed the vacuum pump on the pilot side > accy > > > pad > > > near the prop. Unfortunately, this may not work > as > > > well as PZL intended. Larry Coen pointed out > the > > > accy > > > pads near the prop turn 0.847 times crank CW > while > > > the > > > accy pad on the rear of the engine (fuel pump > mount) > > > turns 1.65 times crank CCW. > > > > > > This could be a problems (ahem, issue). > > > > > > The vacuum pump will now turn more slowly and > > > opposite > > > the way it previously turned (it previously was > on > > > the > > > fuel pump drive). I called SigmaTek about this > and > > > they said, though the pump is bi-directional, > the > > > direction change is significant because it gets > a > > > wear > > > pattern after awhile and changing could shorten > the > > > life. I only have 12 hours on mine so they said > it > > > should be OK. The other problem is they said > their > > > pump needs about 1500 RPM to get good vacuum > (gauge > > > in > > > the green) so at 0.847:1 I'd need around 1800 > crank > > > RPM to get good vacuum. Hmmm. > > > > > > The SigmaTek guy did say that other pumps on the > > > market only need 1200 RPM to get up to speed so > only > > > would need around 1400 crank RPM to get good > vacuum. > > > > > > Still not the best situation. > > > > > > I hope to get some comments from the Franklin > guys > > > to > > > see what ideas are out there for solving this > > > problem. > > > Can't go running around w/o vacuum. > > > > > > Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. > > > > > > Mike Deeter > > > N2011P Franklin RG E > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ******************************************* > > > Mike Deeter > > > N2011 Test Pilot > > > iguanamagic@yahoo.com > > > http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org > === message truncated === ===== ******************************************* Mike Deeter N2011 Test Pilot iguanamagic@yahoo.com http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org ******************************************* __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 18:06:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:06:32 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring References: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C30FDA.1A9E8770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiroo, The "S" connection is the "Sense" or field reference. When connected to = the buss it automatically compensates for any voltage drop in the = alternator power wire. The "L" is the "Light" connection and is for the = so called idiot light output. This configuration comes from the = automotive world. On an auto the + or "Bat" terminal is connected = directly to the battery and is not switched. When the ignition is = turned on , power is applied to the sense lead which causes the "idiot = light" to come on. When the engine starts and the alternator begins to = produce power the "idiot light" goes out. The primary reason that = aircraft have over voltage protection and cars don't is the master relay = or solenoid. On a car the battery provides over voltage protection = since it is always connected to the alternator. Airplanes can isolate = the battery by turning off the master with the engine still running and = the alternator still connected to the aircraft buss. Under these = conditions it is likely you will get an over voltage surge and maybe = smoke some expensive stuff on your panel if you don't have over voltage = protection. I hope this is helpful and doesn't simply add to the confusion. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hiroo Umeno=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring Here I am, still doing wiring. My alternator I got from Franklin guys in CO got me scratching my = head. Many of the airplane wiring references refer to three major = connections to the alternator. Airframe GND, Alternator Field, and = Alternator Out. Now, as I look at my alternator, there appears to be four connections. = One is the GND which essentially is the casing bolted down to the = engine. Then there is a terminal that is marked with '+' symbol that I = figured is the OUT judging from the size of the bolt and nut on the = terminal. Now, on the side, there is a plastic connector that has two, = yes two, wires coming out. One is yellow and the other is green. They = are marked 'S' and 'L'. I am guessing one of them is the 'Field' but = which one? Has anyone got this figured out? Hiroo ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C30FDA.1A9E8770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hiroo,
 
The "S" connection is the "Sense" or = field=20 reference. When connected to the buss it automatically compensates for = any=20 voltage drop in the alternator power wire.  The "L" is the "Light"=20 connection and is for the so called idiot light output.  This = configuration=20 comes from the automotive world.  On an auto the + or "Bat" = terminal is=20 connected directly to the battery and is not switched.  When the = ignition=20 is turned on , power is applied to the sense lead which causes the = "idiot light"=20 to come on.  When the engine starts and the alternator begins to = produce=20 power the "idiot light" goes out.  The primary reason that aircraft = have=20 over voltage protection and cars don't is the master relay or = solenoid.  On=20 a car the battery provides over voltage protection since it is always = connected=20 to the alternator.  Airplanes can isolate the battery by turning = off the=20 master with the engine still running and the alternator still connected = to the=20 aircraft buss.  Under these conditions it is likely you will get an = over=20 voltage surge and maybe smoke some expensive stuff on your panel if you = don't=20 have over voltage protection.
I hope this is helpful and doesn't = simply add to=20 the confusion.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Hiroo=20 Umeno
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 = 3:19=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator=20 wiring

Here I am, still doing=20 wiring=85

 

My alternator I got from = Franklin guys in=20 CO got me scratching my head.  Many of the airplane wiring = references=20 refer to three major connections to the alternator.  Airframe = GND,=20 Alternator Field, and Alternator Out.

 

Now, as I look at my = alternator,=20 there appears to be four connections.  One is the GND which = essentially=20 is the casing bolted down to the engine.  Then there is a = terminal that=20 is marked with =91+=92 symbol that I figured is the OUT judging from = the size of=20 the bolt and nut on the terminal.  Now, on the side, there is a = plastic=20 connector that has two, yes two, wires coming out.  One is yellow = and the=20 other is green.  They are marked =91S=92 and =91L=92.  I am = guessing one of=20 them is the =91Field=92 but which one?

 

Has anyone got this = figured=20 out?

 

Hiroo

------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C30FDA.1A9E8770-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 18:22:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Hiroo Umeno) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:22:37 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C31006.432E0AB6" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31006.432E0AB6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This makes sense. So, what I have it an automotive alternator. I think I have a sense of what I need to do. I can install an idiot light on my panel, and get an over-voltage protection. I think AS&S sells one. =20 Thanks for the info. =20 Hiroo =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Laurence Coen Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:07 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring =20 Hiroo, =20 The "S" connection is the "Sense" or field reference. When connected to the buss it automatically compensates for any voltage drop in the alternator power wire. The "L" is the "Light" connection and is for the so called idiot light output. This configuration comes from the automotive world. On an auto the + or "Bat" terminal is connected directly to the battery and is not switched. When the ignition is turned on , power is applied to the sense lead which causes the "idiot light" to come on. When the engine starts and the alternator begins to produce power the "idiot light" goes out. The primary reason that aircraft have over voltage protection and cars don't is the master relay or solenoid. On a car the battery provides over voltage protection since it is always connected to the alternator. Airplanes can isolate the battery by turning off the master with the engine still running and the alternator still connected to the aircraft buss. Under these conditions it is likely you will get an over voltage surge and maybe smoke some expensive stuff on your panel if you don't have over voltage protection. I hope this is helpful and doesn't simply add to the confusion. =20 Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hiroo Umeno =20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring =20 Here I am, still doing wiring... =20 My alternator I got from Franklin guys in CO got me scratching my head. Many of the airplane wiring references refer to three major connections to the alternator. Airframe GND, Alternator Field, and Alternator Out. =20 Now, as I look at my alternator, there appears to be four connections. One is the GND which essentially is the casing bolted down to the engine. Then there is a terminal that is marked with '+' symbol that I figured is the OUT judging from the size of the bolt and nut on the terminal. Now, on the side, there is a plastic connector that has two, yes two, wires coming out. One is yellow and the other is green. They are marked 'S' and 'L'. I am guessing one of them is the 'Field' but which one? =20 Has anyone got this figured out? =20 Hiroo ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31006.432E0AB6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This makes sense.  So, what I = have it an automotive alternator.  I think I have a sense of what I need to do.  I can install an idiot light on my panel, and get an = over-voltage protection.  I think AS&S sells one.

 

Thanks for the = info.

 

Hiroo

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Laurence Coen
Sent: Thursday, May 01, = 2003 10:07 AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring

 

Hiroo,

 

The "S" = connection is the "Sense" or field reference. When connected to the buss it automatically compensates for any voltage drop in the alternator power wire.  The "L" is the "Light" connection and is = for the so called idiot light output.  This configuration comes from = the automotive world.  On an auto the + or "Bat" terminal is connected directly to the battery and is not switched.  When the = ignition is turned on , power is applied to the sense lead which causes the = "idiot light" to come on.  When the engine starts and the alternator = begins to produce power the "idiot light" goes out.  The primary = reason that aircraft have over voltage protection and cars don't is the master = relay or solenoid.  On a car the battery provides over voltage protection = since it is always connected to the alternator.  Airplanes can isolate = the battery by turning off the master with the engine still running and the alternator still connected to the aircraft buss.  Under these = conditions it is likely you will get an over voltage surge and maybe smoke some = expensive stuff on your panel if you don't have over voltage = protection.

I hope this is helpful and = doesn't simply add to the confusion.

 

Larry = Coen

SE RG = Franklin

----- Original Message = -----

From: Hiroo Umeno

To:<= /font> reflector@tvbf.org

Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 3:19 PM

Subject: REFLECTOR:Alternator wiring

 

Here I am, still doing = wiring…

 

My alternator I got from = Franklin guys in CO got me scratching my head.  Many of the airplane wiring references refer to three major connections to the alternator. =  Airframe GND, Alternator Field, and Alternator Out.

 

Now, as I look at my = alternator, there appears to be four connections.  One is the GND which = essentially is the casing bolted down to the engine.  Then there is a terminal = that is marked with ‘+’ symbol that I figured is the OUT judging = from the size of the bolt and nut on the terminal.  Now, on the side, there = is a plastic connector that has two, yes two, wires coming out.  One is = yellow and the other is green.  They are marked ‘S’ and ‘L’.  I am guessing one of them is the = ‘Field’ but which one?

 

Has anyone got this figured = out?

 

Hiroo

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31006.432E0AB6-- --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 18:36:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:36:51 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31008.3FA9504E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor. What kind = of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley? And is my trim = motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley). I can't find any = details in my manual. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31008.3FA9504E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am = getting ready=20 to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor.  What kind of cord or = cable is=20 used around the motor and pulley?  And is my trim motor supposed to = be just=20 a shaft (with no pulley).  I can't find any details in my=20 manual.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31008.3FA9504E-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 14:35:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:35:08 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning In-Reply-To: <16e.1de5b7a0.2be1aa11@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C30FBC.92BAA680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it won't DeSolve the window will it? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MTSP@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:37 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning DeSolv-it will take all the residue off. Wally WSorld stocks it. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C30FBC.92BAA680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
it=20 won't DeSolve the window will it?
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 MTSP@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:37=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Window=20 cleaning

DeSolv-it will take all the = residue off.=20 Wally WSorld stocks it.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C30FBC.92BAA680-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 20:02:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Velocity_AZ) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:02:47 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C30FD9.94E41000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the inspection? Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up) -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:37 AM To: Velocity Email List (E-mail) Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor. What kind of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley? And is my trim motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley). I can't find any details in my manual. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C30FD9.94E41000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wh= at have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the = inspection?

 

Ke= vin Steiner

El= ite LWFG (almost ready to start her up)

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Tom Martino
Sent: Thursday, May 01, = 2003 10:37 AM
To: Velocity Email List = (E-mail)
Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL = TRIM

 

I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor.  What kind = of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley?  And is my trim motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley).  I can't find any = details in my manual.

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C30FD9.94E41000-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 20:24:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:24:03 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM References: Message-ID: <3EB17453.2040400@tnstaafl.net> Tom, Mine is setup with a heavy duty string, a lot like good kite string. You wrap the string 2 or 3 times around the motor shaft, spray the string with automotive "Belt Dressing" every annual. The tricky part is setting up your springs, you want enough tension to hold the string tight on the pulleys and motor shaft but not so much that when you do full left or right aileron it slips on the shaft. My advice is to start out with a couple long springs and slowly shorten them(both equally) in small increments until it works. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor. What kind > of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley? And is my trim > motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley). I can't find any > details in my manual. From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 20:29:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:29:43 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Disable GS Flag on King 520 Message-ID: <3EB175A7.9040809@tnstaafl.net> I just hooked up a King 520 CDI to my Garmin GNC 300. Everything works per the checkout procedure except the GS flag indicates it is valid. Not really according to Hoyle. I left those pins floating on the 520 thinking an open would cause the flag to retract but it didn't. There are two pins, a GS+ and a GS- What's the correct hookup to permanently retract the flag? Bring which pins to ground or up to 12 volts? thanks, Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 21:10:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:10:07 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c3101d$a99e5d90$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C30FF3.C0CA9F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit $250.00 spent 4 hours examining plane. He had examined my plane three other times for free during the construction. Rene' Dugas 70 hrs flying N129RD in paint shop for interior and stripes. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Velocity_AZ Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:03 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees What have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the inspection? Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up) -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:37 AM To: Velocity Email List (E-mail) Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor. What kind of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley? And is my trim motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley). I can't find any details in my manual. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C30FF3.C0CA9F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

$250.00  spent 4 hours = examining plane.  He had examined my plane three other times for free during the = construction.

Rene’ = Dugas

70 hrs flying

N129RD in paint shop for interior = and stripes.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Velocity_AZ
Sent: Thursday, May 01, = 2003 1:03 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR = Fees

 

What = have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the = inspection?

 

Kevin Steiner

Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up)

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Tom Martino
Sent: Thursday, May 01, = 2003 10:37 AM
To: Velocity Email List = (E-mail)
Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL = TRIM

 

I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor.  What kind = of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley?  And is my trim motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley).  I can't find any = details in my manual.

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C30FF3.C0CA9F80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 22:24:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Airmech) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:24:44 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees References: Message-ID: <001801c31028$18f0db00$be682a42@Mail> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C30FED.694FA940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable $400. I haven't checked with a new EXP DAR yet. bg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Velocity_AZ=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees What have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the inspection? =20 Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up) =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:37 AM To: Velocity Email List (E-mail) Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM =20 I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor. What kind = of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley? And is my trim = motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley). I can't find any = details in my manual. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C30FED.694FA940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
$400. I haven't = checked with a=20 new EXP DAR yet. bg
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Velocity_AZ=20
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 = 12:02=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR = Fees

What=20 have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the=20 inspection?

 

Kevin=20 Steiner

Elite=20 LWFG (almost ready to start her = up)

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf=20 Of Tom Martino
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 = 10:37=20 AM
To: Velocity = Email List=20 (E-mail)
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM

 

I am=20 getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor.  What kind = of cord=20 or cable is used around the motor and pulley?  And is my trim = motor=20 supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley).  I can't find any = details=20 in my manual.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C30FED.694FA940-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 1 23:31:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:31:59 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees References: Message-ID: <002201c31031$7b1ac620$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3100F.F3739CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd suggest finding out if a FAA FSDO inspector is available. I used one in January, the inspection went well, and didn't cost anything. I think the local (and perhaps national), FSDO got some new performance management targets and now they are MUCH MORE CUSTOMER FOCUSED. This guy was actually here to HELP for a change!!!! Check it out. Ronnie 27 hours on N713MR and loving it!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Velocity_AZ To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:02 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees What have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the inspection? Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up) -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:37 AM To: Velocity Email List (E-mail) Subject: REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM I am getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor. What kind of cord or cable is used around the motor and pulley? And is my trim motor supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley). I can't find any details in my manual. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3100F.F3739CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd suggest finding out if a FAA FSDO inspector is=20 available.  I used one in January, the inspection went well, and = didn't=20 cost anything. 
 
I think the local (and perhaps national), FSDO got = some new=20 performance management targets and now they are MUCH MORE CUSTOMER=20 FOCUSED.  This guy was actually here to HELP for a change!!!!  =
 
Check it out.
Ronnie
27 hours on N713MR and loving it!!!!
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Velocity_AZ=20
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees

What=20 have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the=20 inspection?

 

Kevin=20 Steiner

Elite=20 LWFG (almost ready to start her up)

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of=20 Tom Martino
Sent:=20 Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:37 AM
To: Velocity Email List=20 (E-mail)
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:ROLL TRIM

 

I am=20 getting ready to hook up my roll (aileron) trim motor.  What kind = of cord=20 or cable is used around the motor and pulley?  And is my trim motor = supposed to be just a shaft (with no pulley).  I can't find any = details in=20 my manual.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C3100F.F3739CE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 2 03:35:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:35:17 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Disable GS Flag on King 520 References: <3EB175A7.9040809@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002301c31053$780613a0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> I don't know the answer to that one. It looks like a good one to ask on the AeroElectric List. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: ; Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:29 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Disable GS Flag on King 520 > I just hooked up a King 520 CDI to my Garmin GNC 300. > > Everything works per the checkout procedure except the GS flag indicates > it is valid. Not really according to Hoyle. > > I left those pins floating on the 520 thinking an open would cause the > flag to retract but it didn't. > > There are two pins, a GS+ and a GS- > > What's the correct hookup to permanently retract the flag? Bring which > pins to ground or up to 12 volts? > > thanks, > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 2 04:28:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 03:28:51 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees Message-ID: I'm glad they did that for you Ronnie...The FSDO here did it for me also and it didn't cost a dime... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 2 07:34:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 00:34:26 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees References: Message-ID: <002301c31074$e1474160$e0173b41@dr> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C31042.95CAFCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mine cost $300. I wouldn't think of having someone from the local FSDO do it.They have a = well deserved reputation as a bunch of incompetent slugs that you avoid if at all possible.=20 Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Velocity_AZ=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:02 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees What have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the inspection? =20 Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up) =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C31042.95CAFCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mine cost $300.
 
I wouldn't think of having someone from the local = FSDO do=20 it.They have a well deserved reputation as a bunch of incompetent=20 slugs
that you avoid if at all possible.
 
Don
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Velocity_AZ=20
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 = 1:02=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR = Fees

What=20 have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the=20 inspection?

 

Kevin=20 Steiner

Elite=20 LWFG (almost ready to start her = up)

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C31042.95CAFCE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 2 12:05:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:05:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees References: <002301c31074$e1474160$e0173b41@dr> Message-ID: <001201c3109a$cbda5f80$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C31079.44640A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depends on what you want done. If you want a thorough final inspection before you fly, then by all means get a DAR. But if you just want your airworthiness certificate, the FSDO can do it. And I only had to wait less than 2 weeks for him to come. I used the free services of our EAA chapter's three technical counselors for my inspections - they did an excellent job. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C31079.44640A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Depends on what you want done.  If you want a = thorough=20 final inspection before you fly, then by all means get a DAR.  But = if you=20 just want your airworthiness certificate, the FSDO can do it.  And = I only=20 had to wait less than 2 weeks for him to come.
 
I used the free services of our EAA chapter's three = technical=20 counselors for my inspections - they did an excellent job.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C31079.44640A40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 2 17:45:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 16:45:32 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees Message-ID: Maybe that's because we as builders have ego's the size of the GoodYear Blimp and we think our work is perfect... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 3 18:00:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org ( Chris Martin) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:00:03 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas Message-ID: <410-220035631703600@earthlink.net>

This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote:
 
"Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? "
 
Jim's response was "Without a doubt!"
 
I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000.
 
Hope this helps some of you.
 
Chris Martin
Velocity XL RG
330 hours flying
 
 
---
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 3 22:16:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:16:37 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Century Autopilot Message-ID: <3EB431B5.9010602@tnstaafl.net> I just had my autopilot act real funny. In flight today it wouldn't engage. After landing I searched for a loose connector and found none. While sitting in the cockpit, engine off, I was pushing on the engage button repeatadly(stupid but it helped with the frustration!) it suddenly engaged. Now though it tracks about 15 degrees to the left of the course selector needle and stays engaged in course mode when I select NAV or APCH mode. What's the best place to send this unit too to be checked? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 3 22:40:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:40:02 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Century Autopilot References: <3EB431B5.9010602@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Their factory is in Mineral Wells, Texas. They may want to have other instruments in addition to the unit itself. The Century also have some adjustments to center the tracking, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: ; Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Century Autopilot > I just had my autopilot act real funny. In flight today it wouldn't > engage. After landing I searched for a loose connector and found none. > > While sitting in the cockpit, engine off, I was pushing on the engage > button repeatadly(stupid but it helped with the frustration!) it > suddenly engaged. > > Now though it tracks about 15 degrees to the left of the course selector > needle and stays engaged in course mode when I select NAV or APCH mode. > > What's the best place to send this unit too to be checked? > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 3 23:07:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 16:07:02 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Delta Hawk References: <3EB431B5.9010602@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3EB43D86.3050004@tnstaafl.net> Forwarded from RAH To all, No more "next year", no more "soon", and certainly no flying down the runway at 8 inches and calling it a day. The DeltaHawk engine has finally flown. Here is the official blurb. DeltaHawk, Inc. announces the long-awaited first flight of its DH160V4 Turbodiesel aircraft engine. A Velocity RG powered by the 160 horsepower upright V-4 engine, weighing just over 300 pounds and burning jet fuel, took off from John H. Batten Airport in Racine, Wisconsin at 12:01 PM on May 3, 2003. In a flight lasting 38 minutes, test pilot and DeltaHawk Chief Engineer, Doug Doers reached an altitude of 5500 feet MSL and achieved a maximum airspeed of 140 knots before returning for an uneventful landing. Doug reported the flight and engine performance were nearly perfect. Following almost 7 years of development, the flight is a milestone in DeltaHawks history. The company will begin delivering engines to its loyal and patient customers in the first quarter of 2004. Those holding DeltaHawk Delivery Position Agreements (DPA) may contact DeltaHawk at sales@deltahawkengines.com to confirm their intentions. New customers wishing to establish a Delivery Position can download the DPA form from the DeltaHawk website, which contains up to date information and new, high-resolution first flight photos, at: www.deltahawkengines.com Exciting news as this is, the proverbial "rest of the story" is what will really turn your cranks. Stay tuned and come see us at Oshkosh...... Dave Driscoll Defiant N3XK "what could be better than one DeltaHawk?" From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 01:33:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 20:33:21 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:pegboard hooks Message-ID: --part1_ad.2dc26ae8.2be5b9d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just put a dab of Silicone on the hooks to hold them down and in place... I tried the clips and half of them popped off. Kurt Winker --part1_ad.2dc26ae8.2be5b9d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just put a dab of Silicone on the hooks to hold them= down and in place... I tried the clips and half of them popped off.  <= BR>
Kurt Winker --part1_ad.2dc26ae8.2be5b9d1_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 00:42:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (jack davis) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 19:42:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question References: <000001c30c64$9805dd90$1a03a8c0@server01> Message-ID: I have a Lycoming LIO-360-C1E6 in my standard elite RG Velocity. It has always idled at around 650 RPM with the throttle cable all the way out. The other day, for no apparent reason, it decided to idle at 1000 RPM with the throttle all the way out. I checked the linkage and it looks fine. It continues to idle no lower than 1000 RPM now. I'm baffled by the sudden change from 650 to 1000 RPM. Does anyone know why it would suddenly start idling at 1000 RPM as the lowest setting? Everything checks out ok (i.e., mixture, mags, throttle linkage, etc.). Thanks, Jack From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 02:14:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:14:45 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question References: <000001c30c64$9805dd90$1a03a8c0@server01> Message-ID: <3EB46985.9060804@tnstaafl.net> jack davis wrote: > idling at 1000 RPM as the lowest setting? Everything checks out ok (i.e., > mixture, mags, throttle linkage, etc.). By checks out do you mean you verified the timing of the mags? Verified the throttle and the mixture are against the stops on the servo? Air filter is clean? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 02:17:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:pegboard hooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030504011727.51649.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> The ones I mentioned can't be pulled off with Vise Grips unless you remove the locking screw. Jim --- NMFlyer1@aol.com wrote: > I just put a dab of Silicone on the hooks to hold them > down and in place... I > tried the clips and half of them popped off. > > Kurt Winker > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 02:26:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 21:26:58 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question References: <000001c30c64$9805dd90$1a03a8c0@server01> Message-ID: <000901c311dc$41bba640$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Jack, Look for an air leak in the intake tubes. Ronnie Brown ----- Original Message ----- From: "jack davis" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 7:42 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question > I have a Lycoming LIO-360-C1E6 in my standard elite RG Velocity. It has > always idled at around 650 RPM with the throttle cable all the way out. The > other day, for no apparent reason, it decided to idle at 1000 RPM with the > throttle all the way out. I checked the linkage and it looks fine. It > continues to idle no lower than 1000 RPM now. I'm baffled by the sudden > change from 650 to 1000 RPM. Does anyone know why it would suddenly start > idling at 1000 RPM as the lowest setting? Everything checks out ok (i.e., > mixture, mags, throttle linkage, etc.). > > Thanks, > > Jack > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 04:21:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:21:52 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:pegboard hooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C311C2.660977D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Really? I have just the opposite problem, if I need to move a hook, I usually end up breaking them because they won't release! maybe they are not the same brand.... I like the silicone idea though....... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of NMFlyer1@aol.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 6:33 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:pegboard hooks I just put a dab of Silicone on the hooks to hold them down and in place... I tried the clips and half of them popped off. Kurt Winker ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C311C2.660977D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Really? I have just the opposite problem, if I need to = move a hook,=20 I usually end up breaking them because they won't release!  maybe = they are=20 not the same brand.... I like the silicone idea=20 though.......
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 NMFlyer1@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 6:33=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:pegboard=20 hooks

I just put a dab of Silicone on the = hooks to hold=20 them down and in place... I tried the clips and half of them popped = off. =20

Kurt Winker
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C311C2.660977D0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 04:56:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:56:23 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Check for an induction leak. Loose intake manifold, loose carburetor bolts, hoses, etc. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of jack davis > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 6:42 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question > > > I have a Lycoming LIO-360-C1E6 in my standard elite RG Velocity. It has > always idled at around 650 RPM with the throttle cable all the > way out. The > other day, for no apparent reason, it decided to idle at 1000 RPM with the > throttle all the way out. I checked the linkage and it looks fine. It > continues to idle no lower than 1000 RPM now. I'm baffled by the sudden > change from 650 to 1000 RPM. Does anyone know why it would suddenly start > idling at 1000 RPM as the lowest setting? Everything checks out ok (i.e., > mixture, mags, throttle linkage, etc.). > > Thanks, > > Jack > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 13:35:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 07:35:32 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3120F.BE9D86F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kevin, We paid around $550.00, which I thought was outrageous. However, the guy did work with us to update our Operating Limitations for N173DT to allow a major change with only 5 hours minimum Phase I fly-off. He did not charge extra for the update, although the update occurred 2 years after the original was issued. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Velocity_AZ Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:03 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees What have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the inspection? Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG (almost ready to start her up) ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3120F.BE9D86F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Kevin,
 
We=20 paid around $550.00, which I thought was outrageous.  However, the = guy did=20 work with us to update our Operating Limitations for N173DT to = allow a=20 major change with only 5 hours minimum Phase I fly-off.  He = did not=20 charge extra for the update, although the update occurred 2 years after = the=20 original was issued.
 
Mike
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 Velocity_AZ
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:03 = PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR = Fees

What=20 have you (flying) guys paid to have a DAR do the=20 inspection?

 

Kevin=20 Steiner

Elite=20 LWFG (almost ready to start her = up)

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C3120F.BE9D86F0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 14:44:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 09:44:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas In-Reply-To: <410-220035631703600@earthlink.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C31221.CA41B370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, According the the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the wing. Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of foil. I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor. Thanks for the tip. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote: "Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? " Jim's response was "Without a doubt!" I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000. Hope this helps some of you. Chris Martin Velocity XL RG 330 hours flying --- --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C31221.CA41B370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
According the=20 the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the = wing. =20 Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of=20 foil.
 
I did install=20 my localizer antenna in the cabin floor.  Thanks for the=20 tip.
 
Best,
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf = Of=20 Chris Martin
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 = PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape = Antennas

This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape = antennas as=20 designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the = Velocities=20 and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always = been=20 unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage = floor=20 and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote:
 
"Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are = mounted=20 on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have = laid=20 sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil = layer on=20 each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna = failure? "
 
Jim's=20 response was "Without a doubt!"
 
I wonder=20 how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently = building your=20 antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a = foil=20 backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one=20 recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in=20 2000.
 
Hope this=20 helps some of you.
 
Chris=20 Martin
Velocity XL=20 RG
330 hours=20 flying
 
 
---
--- christophercmartin@earth= link.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

_______________________________________________ To change your = email=20 address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit = the=20 gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C31221.CA41B370-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 20:03:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 13:03:31 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3126F.DA98CA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was told you could use the VOR antenna for the localizer and you didn't need a separate antenna. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net]=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas =20 Chris, =20 According the the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the wing. Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of foil. =20 I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor. Thanks for the tip. =20 Best, =20 Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote: =20 "Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? " =20 Jim's response was "Without a doubt!" =20 I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000. =20 Hope this helps some of you. =20 Chris Martin Velocity XL RG 330 hours flying =20 =20 ---=20 --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. =20 _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3126F.DA98CA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was told you could use the VOR = antenna for the localizer and you didn’t need a separate = antenna.

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Andy Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45 AM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

 

Chris,

 

According the = the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the wing.  = Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of = foil.

 

I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor.  Thanks for the = tip.

 

Best,

 

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Chris Martin
Sent: Saturday, May 03, = 2003 1:00 PM
To: reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil = Tape Antennas

This note is for = those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This = is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are = using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my = VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to = seek his advice. I wrote:

 

"Jim, my = question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation = and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is = the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? "

 

Jim's response = was "Without a doubt!"

 

I wonder how = many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas = to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000.

 

Hope this helps = some of you.

 

Chris = Martin

Velocity XL = RG

330 hours = flying

 

 

--- =

--- EarthLink: = It's your Internet.

 

_______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C3126F.DA98CA50-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 20:32:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 13:32:38 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31273.EBCCA688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31273.EBCCA688 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I can’t seem to get a consistent answer on = experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do = we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a completely self = contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear = firewall? 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31273.EBCCA688-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 21:40:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:40:59 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas References: Message-ID: <000f01c3127d$796ceee0$c4811f43@dr> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3124B.2DAD86E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that we are having some nomenclature problems here. Of course = the localizer uses the same antenna at the VOR. The localizer = frequencies are simply the bottom end of the nav frequency band. The = glide slope receiver can also be split off of the nav antenna but it is = probably better to have a separate antenna. If a separate glide slope = antenna is used it is a short one which is usually mounted between the = bottom of the windshield and the canard doghouse. The long antenna that = is usually mounted on the cabin floor is the marker beacon antenna. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:03 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas I was told you could use the VOR antenna for the localizer and you = didn't need a separate antenna. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net]=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas =20 Chris, =20 According the the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the = bottom of the wing. Obviously, not a place where you could cover them = with any type of foil. =20 I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor. Thanks for the = tip. =20 Best, =20 Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas = as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the = Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have = always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on = my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I = wrote: =20 "Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are = mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I = have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a = aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the = antenna failure? " =20 Jim's response was "Without a doubt!" =20 I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in = diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then = mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil = backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I = installed my interiors in 2000. =20 Hope this helps some of you. =20 Chris Martin Velocity XL RG 330 hours flying =20 =20 ---=20 --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. =20 _______________________________________________ To change your email = address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the = gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3124B.2DAD86E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that we are having some nomenclature = problems here. Of=20 course the localizer uses the same antenna at the VOR. The localizer = frequencies=20 are simply the bottom end of the nav frequency band. The glide slope = receiver=20 can also be split off of the nav antenna but it is probably better to = have a=20 separate antenna. If a separate glide slope antenna is used it is a = short one=20 which is usually mounted between the bottom of the windshield  and = the=20 canard doghouse. The long antenna that is usually mounted on the cabin = floor is=20 the marker beacon antenna.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:03 = PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil = Tape=20 Antennas

I was told = you could=20 use the VOR antenna for the localizer and you didn’t need a = separate=20 antenna.

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Andy=20 Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

 

Chris,

 

According = the the=20 plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the = wing. =20 Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of=20 foil.

 

I did=20 install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor.  Thanks for the=20 tip.

 

Best,

 

Andy

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris = Martin
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 = 1:00=20 PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

This note=20 is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as = designed by Jim=20 Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am = sure=20 all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy = with the=20 performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and = finally=20 wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I=20 wrote:

 

"Jim, my=20 question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on = the floor=20 of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound=20 insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil = layer on=20 each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna=20 failure? "

 

Jim's=20 response was "Without a doubt!"

 

I=20 wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in = diligently=20 building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly = covering them=20 with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound = insulation was=20 the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in=20 2000.

 

Hope=20 this helps some of you.

 

Chris=20 Martin

Velocity = XL=20 RG

330=20 hours flying

 

 

---=20

--- christophercmartin@earth= link.net

---=20 EarthLink: It's your Internet.

 

_______________________________________________=20 To change your email address, visit=20 http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery!=20 tvbf:jamaicangoose=20

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3124B.2DAD86E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 21:49:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 14:49:18 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: Message-ID: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C3124C.57441540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically = triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a = remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or = not. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT = requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote = switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and = tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C3124C.57441540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being=20 automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required or=20 not.
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 = PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT

I can’t seem to = get a consistent=20 answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a panel = annunciator=20 and a remote switch on the panel? =20 Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it = behind the=20 trim panel at the rear firewall? 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C3124C.57441540-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 21:47:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:47:18 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas References: <000f01c3127d$796ceee0$c4811f43@dr> Message-ID: <004801c3127e$5a8a53e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3125C.D30C5D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can split the VOR antenna for glide slope - the splitter is about $150. Since my 173 has two VOR antennas (one in each wing) and I only have one VOR receiver, I connected my 2nd VOR antenna to the Glideslope receiver in my Garmin 430. Works fine. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Royer To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas I think that we are having some nomenclature problems here. Of course the localizer uses the same antenna at the VOR. The localizer frequencies are simply the bottom end of the nav frequency band. The glide slope receiver can also be split off of the nav antenna but it is probably better to have a separate antenna. If a separate glide slope antenna is used it is a short one which is usually mounted between the bottom of the windshield and the canard doghouse. The long antenna that is usually mounted on the cabin floor is the marker beacon antenna. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:03 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas I was told you could use the VOR antenna for the localizer and you didn't need a separate antenna. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net] Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas Chris, According the the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the wing. Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of foil. I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor. Thanks for the tip. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris Martin Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote: "Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? " Jim's response was "Without a doubt!" I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000. Hope this helps some of you. Chris Martin Velocity XL RG 330 hours flying --- --- christophercmartin@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3125C.D30C5D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You can split the VOR antenna for glide slope - the = splitter=20 is about $150.
 
Since my 173 has two VOR antennas (one in each wing) = and I=20 only have one VOR receiver, I connected my 2nd VOR antenna to the = Glideslope=20 receiver in my Garmin 430.  Works fine.
 
Ronnie
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Donald Royer=20
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

I think that we are having some nomenclature = problems here. Of=20 course the localizer uses the same antenna at the VOR. The localizer = frequencies=20 are simply the bottom end of the nav frequency band. The glide slope = receiver=20 can also be split off of the nav antenna but it is probably better to = have a=20 separate antenna. If a separate glide slope antenna is used it is a = short one=20 which is usually mounted between the bottom of the windshield  and = the=20 canard doghouse. The long antenna that is usually mounted on the cabin = floor is=20 the marker beacon antenna.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:03 = PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil = Tape=20 Antennas

I was told = you could=20 use the VOR antenna for the localizer and you didn’t need a = separate=20 antenna.

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Andy=20 Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

 

Chris,

 

According = the the=20 plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the = wing. =20 Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of=20 foil.

 

I did=20 install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor.  Thanks for the=20 tip.

 

Best,

 

Andy

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris = Martin
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 = 1:00=20 PM
To:=20 reflector
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

This note=20 is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as = designed by Jim=20 Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am = sure=20 all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy = with the=20 performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and = finally=20 wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I=20 wrote:

 

"Jim, my=20 question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on = the floor=20 of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound=20 insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil = layer on=20 each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna=20 failure? "

 

Jim's=20 response was "Without a doubt!"

 

I=20 wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in = diligently=20 building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly = covering them=20 with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound = insulation was=20 the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in=20 2000.

 

Hope=20 this helps some of you.

 

Chris=20 Martin

Velocity = XL=20 RG

330=20 hours flying

 

 

---=20

--- christophercmartin@earth= link.net

---=20 EarthLink: It's your Internet.

 

_______________________________________________=20 To change your email address, visit=20 http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery!=20 tvbf:jamaicangoose=20

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3125C.D30C5D80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 23:06:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 15:06:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> Message-ID: <000d01c31289$7b7b3f00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3124E.CE8E7EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Considering the horrendous record of ELT's being very nearly useless, I = would think that you would want to spend as little on this device as = possible!! There is no requirement for a panel annunciator and switch. Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donald Royer=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically = triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a = remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or = not. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT = requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote = switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and = tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3124E.CE8E7EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Considering the horrendous record of = ELT's being=20 very nearly useless, I would think that you would want to spend as = little on=20 this device as possible!!  There is no requirement for a panel = annunciator=20 and switch.
 
Keith
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:49 = PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being = automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required or=20 not.
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT

I can=92t seem to get = a consistent=20 answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a panel = annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a completely = self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C3124E.CE8E7EE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 4 23:44:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:44:12 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> <000d01c31289$7b7b3f00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <002201c3128e$af6e4000$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3126D.27C716C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the cheapest conforming ELTs from ACK has a very simple to wire = panel annunciator which will allow you to test and reset it from the = driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to let you know it is = activated. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the horrendous record of ELT's being very nearly useless, = I would think that you would want to spend as little on this device as = possible!! There is no requirement for a panel annunciator and switch. Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donald Royer=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically = triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a = remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or = not. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT = requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote = switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and = tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3126D.27C716C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the cheapest  conforming = ELTs from ACK=20 has a very simple to wire panel annunciator which will allow you to test = and=20 reset it from the driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to let = you know=20 it is activated.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 = PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the horrendous record of = ELT's being=20 very nearly useless, I would think that you would want to spend as = little on=20 this device as possible!!  There is no requirement for a panel=20 annunciator and switch.
 
Keith
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not = being=20 automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required=20 or not.
 
Don
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:ELT

I can=92t seem to = get a=20 consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a = panel=20 annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a = completely self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

=
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C3126D.27C716C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 00:09:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:09:45 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> <000d01c31289$7b7b3f00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> <002201c3128e$af6e4000$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <000b01c31292$4126e8a0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31257.9421BE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The ACK unit is probably a good way to go for now, unless you really = want an ELT that works; in that case you would have to spring $2500 or = so for a 406 MHz unit. The 121.5/243 MHz units will no longer be = monitored after early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to the 406 = MHz units. The hope is that the price on them will have dropped by = then. =20 The only airplane crash located by a 121.5 MHz ELT signal in the 48 = contiguous states was a C-150 that crashed into the Pacific off Punta = Gorda, CA There was one "save" in Hawaii, and several in Alaska, but = the probability of a 121.5 MHz ELT providing for a prompt rescue after a = crash is only marginally better than zero. See = http://avweb.com/news/safety/184213-1.html Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wayne Owens=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:44 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT One of the cheapest conforming ELTs from ACK has a very simple to = wire panel annunciator which will allow you to test and reset it from = the driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to let you know it is = activated. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the horrendous record of ELT's being very nearly = useless, I would think that you would want to spend as little on this = device as possible!! There is no requirement for a panel annunciator = and switch. Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donald Royer=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically = triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a = remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or = not. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT = requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote = switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and = tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31257.9421BE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The ACK unit is probably a good way to = go for now,=20 unless you really want an ELT that works; in that case you would have to = spring=20 $2500 or so for a 406 MHz unit.  The 121.5/243 MHz units will no = longer be=20 monitored after early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to the 406 = MHz=20 units.  The hope is that the price on them will have dropped by = then. =20
 
The only airplane crash located by a = 121.5 MHz ELT=20 signal in the 48 contiguous states was a C-150 that crashed into the = Pacific off=20 Punta Gorda, CA   There was one "save" in Hawaii, and several = in=20 Alaska, but the probability of a 121.5 MHz ELT providing for a = prompt=20 rescue after a crash is only marginally better than zero. =20 See  http://avweb.com/news= /safety/184213-1.html
 
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:44 = PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

One of the cheapest  conforming = ELTs from=20 ACK has a very simple to wire panel annunciator which will allow you = to test=20 and reset it from the driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to = let you=20 know it is activated.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 6:06=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the horrendous record = of ELT's=20 being very nearly useless, I would think that you would want to = spend as=20 little on this device as possible!!  There is no requirement = for a=20 panel annunciator and switch.
 
Keith
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not = being=20 automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake = whether it=20 is required or not.
 
Don
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom Martino =
Sent: Sunday, May 04, = 2003 1:32=20 PM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:ELT

I can=92t seem to = get a=20 consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a = panel=20 annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a = completely self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

=
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C31257.9421BE80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 00:51:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 16:51:28 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT In-Reply-To: <000b01c31292$4126e8a0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> <000d01c31289$7b7b3f00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> <002201c3128e$af6e4000$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504164531.0303b7c0@pop.charter.net> At 04:09 PM 5/4/03 -0700, you wrote: >The ACK unit is probably a good way to go for now, unless you really want >an ELT that works; in that case you would have to spring $2500 or so for a >406 MHz unit. The 121.5/243 MHz units will no longer be monitored after >early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to the 406 MHz units. The >hope is that the price on them will have dropped by then. You can get a 406 mhz ELT with a built in 12 channel GPS for about $1300 at retail - probably less than $1000 wholesale. http://tinyurl.com/aytf Since it's made for boating use it doesn't have an inertia switch - but I'd think you should be able to salvage an inertia switch from a used 121.5 unit for less than $50. Any thoughts? BTW, is everyone else getting a first line on the reflector posts that reads something like "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"> Or is it just me? From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 00:53:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 17:53:31 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31298.5DA58320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31298.5DA58320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What kind do you like for easy, quick but very = durable performance? 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31298.5DA58320-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 01:14:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 17:14:29 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> At 05:53 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: >What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? In this order... Pro-set MGS Jeffco EZ Poxy PTMW But I do an amazing amount of work with WEST 206. Even things that you'd think of as structural - like putting in bulkheads - is really a secondary bond. WEST isn't as strong as the structural epoxies, but in most cases, where you're attaching one thing that's already been made to another thing that's already been made, WEST actually adheres better than the structural stuff. Since the weak point isn't the strength of the epoxy but the strength of the bond, WESTcan, in those cases, actually end up stronger. From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 01:45:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Juanita Londenberg) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 17:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning In-Reply-To: <002c01c30f80$eed6f040$e5c262d8@bldrdoc.gov> Message-ID: <20030505004508.69494.qmail@web80108.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1163288044-1052095508=:69487 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Plain shortening will work also -- I had some masking tape residue stuck to an acrylic cake plate -- being in the kitchen it had shortening on it -- the next day it was very easy to remove. JuanitaLondenbergN4PE -- the Goose "N.V.Frederick" wrote:Andy, I have found the following to work quite well. I use my wife's furniture polish "Old English....", It's an oily stuff that really does soften tape adhesive. It works especially well on that hardened masking tape adhesive that has dried onto most anything. I really don't think it will hurt your windows. It should be put on liberally and trapped with some Saran Wrap or other poly-film. Let it sit overnight and the next day you will most likely be able to just wipe that old adhesive off your window surfaces. nolan frederick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:24 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning > After I installed my windows, I pulled off the duct tape. There were small > spots where the adhesive decided to stay with the window instead of come off > with the tape. Any suggestions on good stuff to take the goop off with. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose --0-1163288044-1052095508=:69487 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Plain shortening will work also --  I had some masking tape residue stuck to an acrylic cake plate -- being in the kitchen it had shortening on it -- the next day it was very easy to remove.
 
JuanitaLondenberg
N4PE -- the Goose

"N.V.Frederick" <nvincent@idcomm.com> wrote:
Andy,
I have found the following to work quite well. I use my wife's
furniture polish "Old English....", It's an oily stuff that really does
soften tape adhesive. It works especially well on that hardened masking
tape adhesive that has dried onto most anything. I really don't think it
will hurt your windows. It should be put on liberally and trapped with some
Saran Wrap or other poly-film. Let it sit overnight and the next day you
will most likely be able to just wipe that old adhesive off your window
surfaces.
nolan frederick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Millin"
To: "Reflector"
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:24 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning


> After I installed my windows, I pulled off the duct tape. There were
small
> spots where the adhesive decided to stay with the window instead of come
off
> with the tape. Any suggestions on good stuff to take the goop off with.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy
>
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose


_______________________________________________
To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
--0-1163288044-1052095508=:69487-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 02:12:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Juanita Londenberg) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Crankshaft for Franklin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505011233.87695.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2031272260-1052097153=:87682 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Did you try A-1 Service (Aircraft) -- 903/626-5115? Juanita LondenbergN4PE -- the Goose Gilles Gratton wrote:Hi Franklinites, I need you help. I am trying to locate a crankshaft (new or rebuilt but certified) for a Franklin 165 which I am putting back together. I understand that the 220 crank can be used in the 165. Anyone with a good lead to help me in my search, I would really appreciate. Thanks, Gilles Gratton --0-2031272260-1052097153=:87682 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Did you try A-1 Service (Aircraft) -- 903/626-5115?
 
Juanita Londenberg
N4PE -- the Goose

Gilles Gratton <gratton@magma.ca> wrote:
Hi Franklinites,
          I need you help.  I am trying to locate a crankshaft (new or rebuilt but certified) for a Franklin 165 which I am putting back together. I understand that  the 220 crank can be used in the 165.    Anyone with a good lead to help me in my search, I would really appreciate.       Thanks,  Gilles Gratton
--0-2031272260-1052097153=:87682-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 02:12:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Juanita Londenberg) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Crankshaft for Franklin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030505011233.87695.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> --0-2031272260-1052097153=:87682 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Did you try A-1 Service (Aircraft) -- 903/626-5115? Juanita LondenbergN4PE -- the Goose Gilles Gratton wrote:Hi Franklinites, I need you help. I am trying to locate a crankshaft (new or rebuilt but certified) for a Franklin 165 which I am putting back together. I understand that the 220 crank can be used in the 165. Anyone with a good lead to help me in my search, I would really appreciate. Thanks, Gilles Gratton --0-2031272260-1052097153=:87682 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Did you try A-1 Service (Aircraft) -- 903/626-5115?
 
Juanita Londenberg
N4PE -- the Goose

Gilles Gratton <gratton@magma.ca> wrote:
Hi Franklinites,
          I need you help.  I am trying to locate a crankshaft (new or rebuilt but certified) for a Franklin 165 which I am putting back together. I understand that  the 220 crank can be used in the 165.    Anyone with a good lead to help me in my search, I would really appreciate.       Thanks,  Gilles Gratton
--0-2031272260-1052097153=:87682-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 03:47:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:47:19 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> <000d01c31289$7b7b3f00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> <002201c3128e$af6e4000$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <000b01c31292$4126e8a0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <3EB5D0B7.9060409@tnstaafl.net> My feelings about ELT's is that they are pretty useless. When I was working as an ATC we got false alarms all the time. Major pain in the ass. YOu can't ignore them even though your 99.9% sure its a false alarm. Usually set off by a hard landing, plane tied down or in the hanger, owner at home asleep. It was stupid CYA legislation that made them a law. Just so I don't get one of those 2am calls to unlock my plane because the damn ELT is going off I want a panel enunciator that lets me know if its bleeping. So I can shut it up! Also my emergency checklist for off field landing has "Activate ELT" on it. SUre enough it will set off if I blow a landing and bounce it in, but it won't go off if I off field it. Most of the new 121.5 units have a telephone cord between the panel and the unit. Makes for easy running of the control wires. Scott KeithHallsten wrote: > The ACK unit is probably a good way to go for now, unless you really > want an ELT that works; in that case you would have to spring $2500 or > so for a 406 MHz unit. The 121.5/243 MHz units will no longer be > monitored after early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to the 406 > MHz units. The hope is that the price on them will have dropped by then. > > The only airplane crash located by a 121.5 MHz ELT signal in the 48 > contiguous states was a C-150 that crashed into the Pacific off Punta > Gorda, CA There was one "save" in Hawaii, and several in Alaska, but > the probability of a 121.5 MHz ELT providing for a prompt rescue after a > crash is only marginally better than zero. > See http://avweb.com/news/safety/184213-1.html > > Keith > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wayne Owens > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT > > One of the cheapest conforming ELTs from ACK has a very simple to > wire panel annunciator which will allow you to test and reset it > from the driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to let you > know it is activated. > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: KeithHallsten > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT > > Considering the horrendous record of ELT's being very nearly > useless, I would think that you would want to spend as little on > this device as possible!! There is no requirement for a panel > annunciator and switch. > > Keith > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Donald Royer > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:49 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT > > Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being > automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one > would certainly want a remote switch on the panel for > safety's sake whether it is required or not. > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Martino > To: reflector@www.tvbf.org > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT > > I can’t seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals > and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel > annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we > use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind > the trim panel at the rear firewall? > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 03:50:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:50:46 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> There are a lot of Velocity's, Cozy's and LongEZ's built with 100% West Systems. The factory A&P's at Velocity say its fine. I was told that its not that it is significantly weaker, its just less stiff. Scott richard@riley.net wrote: > At 05:53 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: > >> What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? > > > In this order... > > Pro-set > MGS > Jeffco > EZ Poxy > PTMW > > But I do an amazing amount of work with WEST 206. Even things that > you'd think of as structural - like putting in bulkheads - is really a > secondary bond. WEST isn't as strong as the structural epoxies, but in > most cases, where you're attaching one thing that's already been made to > another thing that's already been made, WEST actually adheres better > than the structural stuff. Since the weak point isn't the strength of > the epoxy but the strength of the bond, WESTcan, in those cases, > actually end up stronger. > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 04:04:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jay Yu) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:04:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues In-Reply-To: <20030501152536.49585.qmail@web40805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was hoping to fly today. The gusty wind pushed me back. But I did engine runup and got the lower GREEN vacuum (~4.5" HG) at 2200 RPM. This is substantially better than 3" at 1800 RPM. All I did was to tighten everything and a few more engine runs. Thanks all for your inputs. Jay Yu -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of mike deeter Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues Jay et al: I just got back on the net after some travel (business, darn it, not Velocity). My update on my vacuum. I gradually adjusted my regulator to get 'middle of the green' on my gauge anytime I'm flying, certainly 1800 and above. Now, my only issue is that it isn't easy or convenient to reliably set the DG on the ground prior to takeoff into IFR conditions. I guess one could do a runup sitting on the runway just prior to the takeoff run. That'd probably get it done. Otherwise, I'm satisfied I'm getting good vacuum during all flight ops. Mike Deeter --- Jay Yu wrote: > Hi Wayne, > > Thanks for the input. Based on the Franklin manual, > the accessary drive pad > on which I installed the vacuum pump has a drive > ratio of 0.847 which is > certainly less than 2 1/2. I wonder what vacuum > other builders with the same > configuration are getting. > > Thanks, > > Jay > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Wayne Owens > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:59 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > Seems like the Airborne customer service folks told > me that pump RPM should > be 2 1/2 x crank rpm. Verify that. Can you crank > your prop over by hand and > count pump revolutions to determine what ratio you > are driving it at? > Wayne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay Yu" > To: ; "mike deeter" > > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 10:42 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > > Hi Mike and All Franklin Drivers, > > > > I know that I am late in the game on this. I just > installed my new fuel > pump > > that's working well. But, like Mike's original > configuration, my SigmaTek > > vacuum pump used to be on fuel pump drive and now > has been moved to rear > > pilot side. When I started the engine, I didn't > get any vacuum at idle > > speed. I only got about 3" HG when the engine was > running 1800RPM. The > GREEN > > arc is about 4.5" to 5.5" HG. How much vacuum can > you get and at what RPM > > (Mike?) What's the lowest vacuum we need for safe > flight? > > > > My vacuum pump did have about 80 hours in original > configuration. In that > > configuration, the vacuum was in GREEN easily (may > be a little over 1000 > > RPM). With this new installation, I adjusted the > vacuum regulator (both > ways > > to extreme) but still cann't get more than 3" at > about 1800 RPM. > > > > Any and all hints will be greatly appreciated. > > > > Jay Yu > > N86YU > > Velocity RGE > > Franklin/MT > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com > > [mailto:owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com]On Behalf Of > mike deeter > > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:17 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > > > > Franklin drivers: > > > > OK , so now I'm answering my own emails. > > > > I just got off the phone w/ my engine builder, > Pete > > Askeland at Franklin Aircraft Engines, Inc. (FAEI) > in > > Colorado. > > > > Referring to the problems I've outlined in my > email > > below. If you have a bidirectional vacuum pump > you > > will have no problem; just switch the input and > output > > lines. > > > > If you don't have a bidirectional pump you will > > obviously have to get a new vacuum pump. > > > > As for the speed of the accessory pad: FAEI has > the > > STC for Cessnas w/ Franklins and they run their > vacuum > > pumps off the accessory pad in question, i.e. no > > problem running vacuum off the pad on the pilot > side > > near the prop. > > > > Sorry to get us all excited. > > > > Mike > > > > --- mike deeter wrote: > > > Franklin drivers: > > > > > > Well, I got my fuel pump installed and fuel > lines > > > redone. I only needed to hoist the engine for > > > taking > > > the old one off. I was able to reinstall the > new > > > one > > > w/ the engine bolted tightly to the firewall. > > > > > > I installed the vacuum pump on the pilot side > accy > > > pad > > > near the prop. Unfortunately, this may not work > as > > > well as PZL intended. Larry Coen pointed out > the > > > accy > > > pads near the prop turn 0.847 times crank CW > while > > > the > > > accy pad on the rear of the engine (fuel pump > mount) > > > turns 1.65 times crank CCW. > > > > > > This could be a problems (ahem, issue). > > > > > > The vacuum pump will now turn more slowly and > > > opposite > > > the way it previously turned (it previously was > on > > > the > > > fuel pump drive). I called SigmaTek about this > and > > > they said, though the pump is bi-directional, > the > > > direction change is significant because it gets > a > > > wear > > > pattern after awhile and changing could shorten > the > > > life. I only have 12 hours on mine so they said > it > > > should be OK. The other problem is they said > their > > > pump needs about 1500 RPM to get good vacuum > (gauge > > > in > > > the green) so at 0.847:1 I'd need around 1800 > crank > > > RPM to get good vacuum. Hmmm. > > > > > > The SigmaTek guy did say that other pumps on the > > > market only need 1200 RPM to get up to speed so > only > > > would need around 1400 crank RPM to get good > vacuum. > > > > > > Still not the best situation. > > > > > > I hope to get some comments from the Franklin > guys > > > to > > > see what ideas are out there for solving this > > > problem. > > > Can't go running around w/o vacuum. > > > > > > Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. > > > > > > Mike Deeter > > > N2011P Franklin RG E > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ******************************************* > > > Mike Deeter > > > N2011 Test Pilot > > > iguanamagic@yahoo.com > > > http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org > === message truncated === ===== ******************************************* Mike Deeter N2011 Test Pilot iguanamagic@yahoo.com http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org ******************************************* __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 04:20:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jeff Barnes) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 22:20:13 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> Hi Scott, I'm not sure that's an accurate statement, and it's potentially a very dangerous statement. Can you name one Velocity so built, and who at factory said 100% West Systems is fine? If they really said it, which West System product did they specify for which application ? Can you name one Cozy or LongEZ built with 100% West Systems ? Have you asked Nat Puffer (Cozy), or Burt Rutan (LongEZ) about acceptable structural epoxy for their designs, or are we still relying on the Velocity factory A&P for those as well? Thanks, Jeff Barnes Velocity XL-RG Scott Derrick wrote: > > There are a lot of Velocity's, Cozy's and LongEZ's built with 100% West > Systems. The factory A&P's at Velocity say its fine. I was told that > its not that it is significantly weaker, its just less stiff. > > Scott > > richard@riley.net wrote: > > At 05:53 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: > > > >> What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? > > > > > > In this order... > > > > Pro-set > > MGS > > Jeffco > > EZ Poxy > > PTMW > > > > But I do an amazing amount of work with WEST 206. Even things that > > you'd think of as structural - like putting in bulkheads - is really a > > secondary bond. WEST isn't as strong as the structural epoxies, but in > > most cases, where you're attaching one thing that's already been made to > > another thing that's already been made, WEST actually adheres better > > than the structural stuff. Since the weak point isn't the strength of > > the epoxy but the strength of the bond, WESTcan, in those cases, > > actually end up stronger. > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 04:28:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 20:28:19 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504202436.02380520@pop.charter.net> At 08:50 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: >There are a lot of Velocity's, Cozy's and LongEZ's built with 100% West >Systems. The factory A&P's at Velocity say its fine. I was told that its >not that it is significantly weaker, its just less stiff. > >Scott Scott, I don't know of any moldess airplanes where the parts themselves are made out of WEST. Even the slowest WEST would exotherm horribly in a heavy layup like a sparcap. That said, the Berkut prototype's winglets were made with and attached with WEST (I never did feel comfortable with that). And a couple of Berkuts have flown with the vast majority of their parts assembled with WEST. I wouldn't use it for the gear installations or for assembling the top strake - there are better gell adhesives our there - but for most other things, yes. One additional advantage - I don't know anyone that's gotten allergic to WEST. I can't say that of any of the other systems. From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 04:30:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:30:42 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: It also sets up a lot quicker. Its pot life is very short here in the summer. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:51 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE > > > There are a lot of Velocity's, Cozy's and LongEZ's built with 100% West > Systems. The factory A&P's at Velocity say its fine. I was told that > its not that it is significantly weaker, its just less stiff. > > Scott > > richard@riley.net wrote: > > At 05:53 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: > > > >> What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? > > > > > > In this order... > > > > Pro-set > > MGS > > Jeffco > > EZ Poxy > > PTMW > > > > But I do an amazing amount of work with WEST 206. Even things that > > you'd think of as structural - like putting in bulkheads - is really a > > secondary bond. WEST isn't as strong as the structural epoxies, but in > > most cases, where you're attaching one thing that's already > been made to > > another thing that's already been made, WEST actually adheres better > > than the structural stuff. Since the weak point isn't the strength of > > the epoxy but the strength of the bond, WESTcan, in those cases, > > actually end up stronger. > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 04:47:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:47:31 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> <000d01c31289$7b7b3f00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> <002201c3128e$af6e4000$0100a8c0@mshome.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030504164531.0303b7c0@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <002f01c312b9$0f05e480$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> This once again shows what the cost breakdown is for certified hardware. $1,400 for a boating application, $2,500 for an aircraft application, so the FAA paperwork costs $1,100 per unit!! Nevertheless, some manufacturer is going to realize that the potential sales are several hundred thousand units, and if they can get the price down, a lot of us will go for an ELT that might actually help in a crash. The price/performance ratio of a 406 Mhz unit at $2,000 is probably much better than that of a 121.5 MHz unit at $500. I haven't seen the odd line on reflector posts. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT > At 04:09 PM 5/4/03 -0700, you wrote: > > >The ACK unit is probably a good way to go for now, unless you really want > >an ELT that works; in that case you would have to spring $2500 or so for a > >406 MHz unit. The 121.5/243 MHz units will no longer be monitored after > >early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to the 406 MHz units. The > >hope is that the price on them will have dropped by then. > > You can get a 406 mhz ELT with a built in 12 channel GPS for about $1300 at > retail - probably less than $1000 wholesale. http://tinyurl.com/aytf > > Since it's made for boating use it doesn't have an inertia switch - but I'd > think you should be able to salvage an inertia switch from a used 121.5 > unit for less than $50. Any thoughts? > > BTW, is everyone else getting a first line on the reflector posts that > reads something like > > "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = > "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"> > > Or is it just me? > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 05:14:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Lloyd L Garner) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:14:39 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT Message-ID: <20030505.002902.1900.5.wvlloyd@juno.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3abf.038a.282a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My Cherokee 180 had a self-contained ACK unit mounted on the window molding behind the pilot. A&P installed years before I owned the A/C Lloyd Garner On Sun, 4 May 2003 13:32:38 -0600 "Tom Martino" writes: I can’t seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall? ----__JNP_000_3abf.038a.282a Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My Cherokee 180 had a self-contained ACK unit mounted on the window = molding=20 behind the pilot.  A&P installed years before I  owned = the=20 A/C
 
Lloyd Garner
 
On Sun, 4 May 2003 13:32:38 -0600 "Tom Martino" <tmartino@troubleshooter.com= >=20 writes:

I can’t seem to get a= consistent=20 answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a panel = annunciator=20 and a remote switch on the panel? = =20 Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind = the=20 trim panel at the rear firewall? <= SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

 

 
----__JNP_000_3abf.038a.282a-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 05:09:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Lloyd L Garner) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 00:09:39 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT Message-ID: <20030505.002902.1900.4.wvlloyd@juno.com> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_1aa4.5943.2e62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CAP in OK 1993 Checked out an ELT in a hangar that was finally located behind the seat bulkhead in (I believe) a Cozy. We had to call in an A&P to remove the panel from the bulkhead. It did have an annunciator light on the Inst Panel which is how we found it in the first place. In 1997 the Muskogee Sqdrn had a save because the A/C landed short in freezing rain. Took about 2 hours to find the pilot who by then was frozen to the ground. But he's now alive and well. Bottom line ----- sometimes they DO work.. Lloyd Garner On Sun, 4 May 2003 16:09:45 -0700 "KeithHallsten" writes: The ACK unit is probably a good way to go for now, unless you really want an ELT that works; in that case you would have to spring $2500 or so for a 406 MHz unit. The 121.5/243 MHz units will no longer be monitored after early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to the 406 MHz units. The hope is that the price on them will have dropped by then. The only airplane crash located by a 121.5 MHz ELT signal in the 48 contiguous states was a C-150 that crashed into the Pacific off Punta Gorda, CA There was one "save" in Hawaii, and several in Alaska, but the probability of a 121.5 MHz ELT providing for a prompt rescue after a crash is only marginally better than zero. See http://avweb.com/news/safety/184213-1.html Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:44 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT One of the cheapest conforming ELTs from ACK has a very simple to wire panel annunciator which will allow you to test and reset it from the driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to let you know it is activated. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: KeithHallsten To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:06 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the horrendous record of ELT's being very nearly useless, I would think that you would want to spend as little on this device as possible!! There is no requirement for a panel annunciator and switch. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Royer To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or not. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can’t seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall? ----__JNP_000_1aa4.5943.2e62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
CAP in OK 1993 Checked out an ELT in a hangar that was finally located= =20 behind the seat bulkhead in (I believe) a Cozy.  We had to call in an= =20 A&P to remove the panel from the bulkhead.  It did have an = annunciator=20 light on the Inst Panel which is how we found it in the first=20 place.   
 
In 1997 the Muskogee Sqdrn had a save because the A/C landed short in= =20 freezing rain.  Took about 2 hours to find the pilot who by then was = frozen=20 to the ground.  But he's now alive and well.  Bottom line -----=20 sometimes they DO work..
 
Lloyd Garner
 
 
On Sun, 4 May 2003 16:09:45 -0700 "KeithHallsten" <KeithHallsten@quiknet.com>= =20 writes:
The ACK unit is probably a good way to = go for=20 now, unless you really want an ELT that works; in that case you would = have to=20 spring $2500 or so for a 406 MHz unit.  The 121.5/243 MHz units will= no=20 longer be monitored after early 2009, so by then we'll all have to go to = the=20 406 MHz units.  The hope is that the price on them will have dropped= by=20 then. 
 
The only airplane crash located by a 121= .5 MHz=20 ELT signal in the 48 contiguous states was a C-150 that crashed into the= =20 Pacific off Punta Gorda, CA   There was one "save" in Hawaii, = and=20 several in Alaska, but the probability of a 121.5 MHz ELT providing = for a=20 prompt rescue after a crash is only marginally better than zero. =20 See  http://avweb.com/news= /safety/184213-1.html
 
Keith
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:44= =20 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT

One of the cheapest  conforming = ELTs from=20 ACK has a very simple to wire panel annunciator which will allow you to= test=20 and reset it from the driver's seat. It also has an indicator light to = let=20 you know it is activated.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:= 06=20 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the horrendous record of= ELT's=20 being very nearly useless, I would think that you would want to spend= as=20 little on this device as possible!!  There is no requirement for= a=20 panel annunciator and switch.
 
Keith
 
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 Donald Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1= :49=20 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not = being=20 automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would= =20 certainly want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake = whether it=20 is required or not.
 
Don
----- Original Message ----- Tom Martino
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003= 1:32=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT

I can=92t seem to = get a=20 consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a = panel=20 annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a = completely=20 self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear= =20 firewall? <= /FONT>

<= SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

 
----__JNP_000_1aa4.5943.2e62-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 06:42:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org ( Chris Martin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:42:36 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas Message-ID: <410-2200351554236988@earthlink.net>
Andy,
 
When I built my wing in 1997, the only antennas in the wing were the COM antennas. The VOR, marker beacon, glide slope and ELT  antennas were in the fuselage.
 
Thanks for the response. I was wondering if anyone read my post.
 
Chris Martin
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/4/2003 5:45:04 AM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

Chris,
 
According the the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the wing.  Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of foil.
 
I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor.  Thanks for the tip.
 
Best,
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris Martin
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 PM
To: reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote:
 
"Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? "
 
Jim's response was "Without a doubt!"
 
I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000.
 
Hope this helps some of you.
 
Chris Martin
Velocity XL RG
330 hours flying
 
 
---
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

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From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 06:44:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org ( Chris Martin) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 22:44:27 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas Message-ID: <410-2200351554427157@earthlink.net>
Tom, The antenna for the VOR is the same antenna for the localizer and the glide slope.
 
Thanks Chris Martin
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/4/2003 11:04:07 AM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

I was told you could use the VOR antenna for the localizer and you didn’t need a separate antenna.

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Millin [mailto:amillin@net-link.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 7:45 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

 

Chris,

 

According the the plans, the VOR antennas are to be built into the bottom of the wing.  Obviously, not a place where you could cover them with any type of foil.

 

I did install my localizer antenna in the cabin floor.  Thanks for the tip.

 

Best,

 

Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chris Martin
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 1:00 PM
To: reflector
Subject: REFLECTOR:Foil Tape Antennas

This note is for those of you that are using the foil tape antennas as designed by Jim Weir. This is the standard antenna system in the Velocities and I am sure all of you are using them in some form. I have always been unhappy with the performance of my VOR antennas mounted on my fuselage floor and finally wrote to Jim Weir to seek his advice. I wrote:

 

"Jim, my question is this. The two VOR antennas in question are mounted on the floor of the fiberglass fuselage. Over the floor I have I have laid sound insulation and carpet. The sound insulation has a aluminum foil layer on each side. Is the foil the probable source of the antenna failure? "

 

Jim's response was "Without a doubt!"

 

I wonder how many of you have made the same mistake I made in diligently building your antennas to Jim Weir's plans and then mistakenly covering them with a foil backed sound insulation. The foil backed sound insulation was the one recommended by Velocity when I installed my interiors in 2000.

 

Hope this helps some of you.

 

Chris Martin

Velocity XL RG

330 hours flying

 

 

---

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From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 14:21:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:21:00 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues References: Message-ID: <3EB6653C.9000703@tnstaafl.net> Your instruments will run fine and last longer at 4"-4.5". Most systems are set way to high, which the AI and DG manufacturers love. Scott Jay Yu wrote: > I was hoping to fly today. The gusty wind pushed me back. But I did engine > runup and got the lower GREEN vacuum (~4.5" HG) at 2200 RPM. This is > substantially better than 3" at 1800 RPM. All I did was to tighten > everything and a few more engine runs. > > Thanks all for your inputs. > > Jay Yu > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of mike deeter > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:26 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues > > > Jay et al: > > I just got back on the net after some travel > (business, darn it, not Velocity). > > My update on my vacuum. I gradually adjusted my > regulator to get 'middle of the green' on my gauge > anytime I'm flying, certainly 1800 and above. Now, my > only issue is that it isn't easy or convenient to > reliably set the DG on the ground prior to takeoff > into IFR conditions. I guess one could do a runup > sitting on the runway just prior to the takeoff run. > That'd probably get it done. > > Otherwise, I'm satisfied I'm getting good vacuum > during all flight ops. > > Mike Deeter > > > --- Jay Yu wrote: > >>Hi Wayne, >> >>Thanks for the input. Based on the Franklin manual, >>the accessary drive pad >>on which I installed the vacuum pump has a drive >>ratio of 0.847 which is >>certainly less than 2 1/2. I wonder what vacuum >>other builders with the same >>configuration are getting. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Jay >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org >>[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Wayne Owens >>Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 9:59 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues >> >> >>Seems like the Airborne customer service folks told >>me that pump RPM should >>be 2 1/2 x crank rpm. Verify that. Can you crank >>your prop over by hand and >>count pump revolutions to determine what ratio you >>are driving it at? >>Wayne >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jay Yu" >>To: ; "mike deeter" >> >>Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 10:42 PM >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues >> >> >> >>>Hi Mike and All Franklin Drivers, >>> >>>I know that I am late in the game on this. I just >> >>installed my new fuel >>pump >> >>>that's working well. But, like Mike's original >> >>configuration, my SigmaTek >> >>>vacuum pump used to be on fuel pump drive and now >> >>has been moved to rear >> >>>pilot side. When I started the engine, I didn't >> >>get any vacuum at idle >> >>>speed. I only got about 3" HG when the engine was >> >>running 1800RPM. The >>GREEN >> >>>arc is about 4.5" to 5.5" HG. How much vacuum can >> >>you get and at what RPM >> >>>(Mike?) What's the lowest vacuum we need for safe >> >>flight? >> >>>My vacuum pump did have about 80 hours in original >> >>configuration. In that >> >>>configuration, the vacuum was in GREEN easily (may >> >>be a little over 1000 >> >>>RPM). With this new installation, I adjusted the >> >>vacuum regulator (both >>ways >> >>>to extreme) but still cann't get more than 3" at >> >>about 1800 RPM. >> >>>Any and all hints will be greatly appreciated. >>> >>>Jay Yu >>>N86YU >>>Velocity RGE >>>Franklin/MT >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com >>>[mailto:owner-reflector@dax.awpi.com]On Behalf Of >> >>mike deeter >> >>>Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:17 PM >>>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: Franklin Fuel Pump Issues >>> >>> >>>Franklin drivers: >>> >>>OK , so now I'm answering my own emails. >>> >>>I just got off the phone w/ my engine builder, >> >>Pete >> >>>Askeland at Franklin Aircraft Engines, Inc. (FAEI) >> >>in >> >>>Colorado. >>> >>>Referring to the problems I've outlined in my >> >>email >> >>>below. If you have a bidirectional vacuum pump >> >>you >> >>>will have no problem; just switch the input and >> >>output >> >>>lines. >>> >>>If you don't have a bidirectional pump you will >>>obviously have to get a new vacuum pump. >>> >>>As for the speed of the accessory pad: FAEI has >> >>the >> >>>STC for Cessnas w/ Franklins and they run their >> >>vacuum >> >>>pumps off the accessory pad in question, i.e. no >>>problem running vacuum off the pad on the pilot >> >>side >> >>>near the prop. >>> >>>Sorry to get us all excited. >>> >>>Mike >>> >>>--- mike deeter wrote: >>> >>>>Franklin drivers: >>>> >>>>Well, I got my fuel pump installed and fuel >>> >>lines >> >>>>redone. I only needed to hoist the engine for >>>>taking >>>>the old one off. I was able to reinstall the >>> >>new >> >>>>one >>>>w/ the engine bolted tightly to the firewall. >>>> >>>>I installed the vacuum pump on the pilot side >>> >>accy >> >>>>pad >>>>near the prop. Unfortunately, this may not work >>> >>as >> >>>>well as PZL intended. Larry Coen pointed out >>> >>the >> >>>>accy >>>>pads near the prop turn 0.847 times crank CW >>> >>while >> >>>>the >>>>accy pad on the rear of the engine (fuel pump >>> >>mount) >> >>>>turns 1.65 times crank CCW. >>>> >>>>This could be a problems (ahem, issue). >>>> >>>>The vacuum pump will now turn more slowly and >>>>opposite >>>>the way it previously turned (it previously was >>> >>on >> >>>>the >>>>fuel pump drive). I called SigmaTek about this >>> >>and >> >>>>they said, though the pump is bi-directional, >>> >>the >> >>>>direction change is significant because it gets >>> >>a >> >>>>wear >>>>pattern after awhile and changing could shorten >>> >>the >> >>>>life. I only have 12 hours on mine so they said >>> >>it >> >>>>should be OK. The other problem is they said >>> >>their >> >>>>pump needs about 1500 RPM to get good vacuum >>> >>(gauge >> >>>>in >>>>the green) so at 0.847:1 I'd need around 1800 >>> >>crank >> >>>>RPM to get good vacuum. Hmmm. >>>> >>>>The SigmaTek guy did say that other pumps on the >>>>market only need 1200 RPM to get up to speed so >>> >>only >> >>>>would need around 1400 crank RPM to get good >>> >>vacuum. >> >>>>Still not the best situation. >>>> >>>>I hope to get some comments from the Franklin >>> >>guys >> >>>>to >>>>see what ideas are out there for solving this >>>>problem. >>>> Can't go running around w/o vacuum. >>>> >>>>Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. >>>> >>>>Mike Deeter >>>>N2011P Franklin RG E >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>===== >>>>******************************************* >>>>Mike Deeter >>>>N2011 Test Pilot >>>>iguanamagic@yahoo.com >>>>http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org >>> > === message truncated === > > > ===== > ******************************************* > Mike Deeter > N2011 Test Pilot > iguanamagic@yahoo.com > http://iguanamagic.siegesmund.org > ******************************************* > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 14:32:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:32:32 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3EB667F0.3000207@tnstaafl.net> I was told this by Brendan O'Riodan and one of the other mechanics, both A&P's at the Velocity factory. He said not to use the accelerated hardener because its strength was compromised, as all the fast cure systems are. I've never built an entire airplane so my knowledge of this is limited, that's why I ask the factory people. I did build my gear legs(Standard RG) using West Systems. Brendan said they would be fine, but they may be just a bit more flexible. I also talked with a West Systems customer service rep who "said" he knew of a couple composite planes built entirely with West Systems. Take it for what its worth. As for the pot life of West Systems, they have a whole range of hardeners to control the cure rate, I think there are 4 different hardeners too choose from. If your trying to use their fast hardener in a big thick lay-up you will have major problems. You need to use the slower hardeners. Scott Jeff Barnes wrote: > Hi Scott, > > I'm not sure that's an accurate statement, and it's potentially a very > dangerous statement. > > Can you name one Velocity so built, and who at factory said 100% West > Systems is fine? If they really said it, which West System product did > they specify for which application ? > > Can you name one Cozy or LongEZ built with 100% West Systems ? Have you > asked Nat Puffer (Cozy), or Burt Rutan (LongEZ) about acceptable > structural epoxy for their designs, or are we still relying on the > Velocity factory A&P for those as well? > > Thanks, > Jeff Barnes > Velocity XL-RG > > Scott Derrick wrote: > >>There are a lot of Velocity's, Cozy's and LongEZ's built with 100% West >>Systems. The factory A&P's at Velocity say its fine. I was told that >>its not that it is significantly weaker, its just less stiff. >> >>Scott >> >>richard@riley.net wrote: >> >>>At 05:53 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>>What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? >>> >>> >>>In this order... >>> >>>Pro-set >>>MGS >>>Jeffco >>>EZ Poxy >>>PTMW >>> >>>But I do an amazing amount of work with WEST 206. Even things that >>>you'd think of as structural - like putting in bulkheads - is really a >>>secondary bond. WEST isn't as strong as the structural epoxies, but in >>>most cases, where you're attaching one thing that's already been made to >>>another thing that's already been made, WEST actually adheres better >>>than the structural stuff. Since the weak point isn't the strength of >>>the epoxy but the strength of the bond, WESTcan, in those cases, >>>actually end up stronger. >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 14:39:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:39:25 -0600 Subject: Epoxy's: was Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3EB6698D.3020205@tnstaafl.net> Jeff, As a side issue regarding epoxy's. Large and small boats are built all the time with West Systems. I've been in boats at sea and they take a pounding, as much as any airplane I've been in if not more. I realize all epoxy's are not equal but just looking at them from a long term performance standpoint it would seem West Systems does the job. So why the viewpoint that it is not acceptable for use. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 14:42:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:42:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: Message-ID: <002001c3130c$3a138940$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C312EA.B28C6B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, why don't you pose your question to EAA. That's what they get paid for - interpreting and championing the experimental class of aircraft and how the FAA regs apply to them. If you aren't an EAA member, I'd be happy to send them the question. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall? ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C312EA.B28C6B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom, why don't you pose your question to EAA.  = That's=20 what they get paid for - interpreting and championing the experimental = class of=20 aircraft and how the FAA regs apply to them.  If you aren't an EAA = member,=20 I'd be happy to send them the question.
 
Ronnie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:32 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT

I can’t seem to get = a consistent=20 answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a panel = annunciator=20 and a remote switch on the panel? =20 Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind = the=20 trim panel at the rear firewall? 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C312EA.B28C6B20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 15:41:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:41:59 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> <3EB667F0.3000207@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002a01c31314$812e1360$d410570c@Workshop> I was curious about this a couple of years ago because I liked the quicker setup times and less obnoxious fumes from the West system. At that time, the factory said that they were using West just for filling. I called Gougeon Bros. and talked to an engineer there. He said that the West system had been used structurally in composite aircraft. When I looked at the specs, I think I remember that West had slightly less strength and a little lower transition temperature than EZ Poxy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:32 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE > I was told this by Brendan O'Riodan and one of the other mechanics, both > A&P's at the Velocity factory. He said not to use the accelerated > hardener because its strength was compromised, as all the fast cure > systems are. > > I've never built an entire airplane so my knowledge of this is limited, > that's why I ask the factory people. I did build my gear legs(Standard > RG) using West Systems. Brendan said they would be fine, but they may be > just a bit more flexible. > > I also talked with a West Systems customer service rep who "said" he > knew of a couple composite planes built entirely with West Systems. Take > it for what its worth. > > As for the pot life of West Systems, they have a whole range of > hardeners to control the cure rate, I think there are 4 different > hardeners too choose from. If your trying to use their fast hardener in > a big thick lay-up you will have major problems. You need to use the > slower hardeners. > > Scott > > Jeff Barnes wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > > > I'm not sure that's an accurate statement, and it's potentially a very > > dangerous statement. > > > > Can you name one Velocity so built, and who at factory said 100% West > > Systems is fine? If they really said it, which West System product did > > they specify for which application ? > > > > Can you name one Cozy or LongEZ built with 100% West Systems ? Have you > > asked Nat Puffer (Cozy), or Burt Rutan (LongEZ) about acceptable > > structural epoxy for their designs, or are we still relying on the > > Velocity factory A&P for those as well? > > > > Thanks, > > Jeff Barnes > > Velocity XL-RG > > > > Scott Derrick wrote: > > > >>There are a lot of Velocity's, Cozy's and LongEZ's built with 100% West > >>Systems. The factory A&P's at Velocity say its fine. I was told that > >>its not that it is significantly weaker, its just less stiff. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>richard@riley.net wrote: > >> > >>>At 05:53 PM 5/4/03 -0600, you wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>What kind do you like for easy, quick but very durable performance? > >>> > >>> > >>>In this order... > >>> > >>>Pro-set > >>>MGS > >>>Jeffco > >>>EZ Poxy > >>>PTMW > >>> > >>>But I do an amazing amount of work with WEST 206. Even things that > >>>you'd think of as structural - like putting in bulkheads - is really a > >>>secondary bond. WEST isn't as strong as the structural epoxies, but in > >>>most cases, where you're attaching one thing that's already been made to > >>>another thing that's already been made, WEST actually adheres better > >>>than the structural stuff. Since the weak point isn't the strength of > >>>the epoxy but the strength of the bond, WESTcan, in those cases, > >>>actually end up stronger. > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>To change your email address, visit > >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>> > >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >>> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >> > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 15:54:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:54:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <002a01c31314$812e1360$d410570c@Workshop> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> <3EB667F0.3000207@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030505075048.025ed7e0@pop.charter.net> The epoxy people use the terms laminating epoxy and assembly epoxy. They think of MGS, EZ-Poxy and the like as laminating - that's what you actually *make* things out of, like spars, bulkheads, skins, etc. WEST would be an assembly epoxy. If you're building from a kit, the overwhelming majority of what you do is assembly, especially if the wings are pre-molded. Gougeon's laminating system is Pro-Set, and it's a joy to work with. They also have a Pro-Set line of thixotropic, gelled resin that's wonderful for closing strakes, it's used with a gun and a static mixer. At 09:41 AM 5/5/03 -0500, you wrote: >I was curious about this a couple of years ago because I liked the quicker >setup times and less obnoxious fumes from the West system. At that time, >the factory said that they were using West just for filling. I called >Gougeon Bros. and talked to an engineer there. He said that the West system >had been used structurally in composite aircraft. When I looked at the >specs, I think I remember that West had slightly less strength and a little >lower transition temperature than EZ Poxy. >----- Original Message ----- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 16:28:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:28:40 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> <3EB667F0.3000207@tnstaafl.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030505075048.025ed7e0@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <3EB68328.2010907@tnstaafl.net> Richard, Are you saying the Pro-Set Epoxy is OK for structural laminates and the West System brand is not? On the West System web site there is very detailed instructions on how to do laminate lay-ups with West System Epoxy. Scott richard@riley.net wrote: > The epoxy people use the terms laminating epoxy and assembly epoxy. > They think of MGS, EZ-Poxy and the like as laminating - that's what you > actually *make* things out of, like spars, bulkheads, skins, etc. WEST > would be an assembly epoxy. > > If you're building from a kit, the overwhelming majority of what you do > is assembly, especially if the wings are pre-molded. > > Gougeon's laminating system is Pro-Set, and it's a joy to work with. > They also have a Pro-Set line of thixotropic, gelled resin that's > wonderful for closing strakes, it's used with a gun and a static mixer. > > > At 09:41 AM 5/5/03 -0500, you wrote: > >> I was curious about this a couple of years ago because I liked the >> quicker >> setup times and less obnoxious fumes from the West system. At that time, >> the factory said that they were using West just for filling. I called >> Gougeon Bros. and talked to an engineer there. He said that the West >> system >> had been used structurally in composite aircraft. When I looked at the >> specs, I think I remember that West had slightly less strength and a >> little >> lower transition temperature than EZ Poxy. >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 16:52:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:52:11 -0500 Subject: Epoxy's: was Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <3EB6698D.3020205@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, I agree west is a great and widespread system, and many boats are built with it (including one that I built) and that boat would take quite a pounding with no problems, but the difference here is that the boat is built more robustly, so possibly there is less stress in the laminates than in our aircraft- case in point- the canard deflects maybe 2 inches at the tips when heavily loaded, and no part of my boat ever had to deal with that much change in shape (stress) so even though in the boats it works fine, possibly the epoxy needs to be even stronger in the aircraft application. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:39 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Epoxy's: was Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE Jeff, As a side issue regarding epoxy's. Large and small boats are built all the time with West Systems. I've been in boats at sea and they take a pounding, as much as any airplane I've been in if not more. I realize all epoxy's are not equal but just looking at them from a long term performance standpoint it would seem West Systems does the job. So why the viewpoint that it is not acceptable for use. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 16:52:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:52:22 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C312F4.685B9B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A remote control head for an ELT is a requirement of TSO-C91a. All new = manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO requirement. The remote head = must be accessible from the pilot position. Larry Coen SE-RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donald Royer=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically = triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a = remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or = not. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT = requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote = switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and = tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C312F4.685B9B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A remote control head for an ELT is a = requirement=20 of TSO-C91a.  All new manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO=20 requirement.  The remote head must be accessible from the pilot=20 position.
 
Larry Coen
SE-RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:49 = PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being = automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required or=20 not.
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT

I can=92t seem to get = a consistent=20 answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a panel = annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a completely = self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C312F4.685B9B20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 17:12:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 12:12:14 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001901c3127e$a2865e00$c4811f43@dr> Message-ID: <009001c31321$17bb3860$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C312FF.90235160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found a detailed answer for ELT requirements in homebuilts at http://www.moneypit.net/~pratt/ambuilt/explain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Coen To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:52 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT A remote control head for an ELT is a requirement of TSO-C91a. All new manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO requirement. The remote head must be accessible from the pilot position. Larry Coen SE-RG Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Royer To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or not. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall? ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C312FF.90235160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found a detailed answer for ELT requirements in = homebuilts=20 at  http://www.mo= neypit.net/~pratt/ambuilt/explain.htm 
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Laurence = Coen=20
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT

A remote control head for an ELT is a = requirement=20 of TSO-C91a.  All new manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO=20 requirement.  The remote head must be accessible from the pilot=20 position.
 
Larry Coen
SE-RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:49 = PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being = automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required or=20 not.
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT

I can’t seem to = get a consistent=20 answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a panel = annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a completely = self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C312FF.90235160-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 17:26:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:26:36 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31323.1969E630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does that apply to Experimental? I can't find the regulation anywhere = that requires a remote access. Even looking at the ELTs themselves ... = the ones without remote access says "TSO-C91a Approved" ... and they = mention something about satellite technology. =20 Do you know of any specifi wording and in what reg? FAR? =20 -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Coen [mailto:lwcoen@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT A remote control head for an ELT is a requirement of TSO-C91a. All new = manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO requirement. The remote head = must be accessible from the pilot position. =20 Larry Coen SE-RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Donald Royer=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically = triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a = remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or = not. =20 Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino =20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT = requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote = switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and = tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall?=20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31323.1969E630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does=20 that apply to Experimental?  I can't find the regulation anywhere = that=20 requires a remote access.  Even looking at the ELTs themselves ... = the ones=20 without remote access says "TSO-C91a Approved" ... and they mention = something=20 about satellite technology.
 
Do you=20 know of any specifi wording and in what reg?  FAR? =20
-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Coen=20 [mailto:lwcoen@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:52=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:ELT

A remote control head for an ELT is a = requirement=20 of TSO-C91a.  All new manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO=20 requirement.  The remote head must be accessible from the pilot=20 position.
 
Larry Coen
SE-RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 3:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not = being=20 automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required=20 or not.
 
Don
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom Martino
To: reflector@www.tvbf.org
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:ELT

I can’t seem = to get a=20 consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a = panel=20 annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a = completely self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31323.1969E630-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 18:28:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 13:28:57 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:DAR Fees Message-ID: <035998E0.783D3481.0086622B@aol.com> I asked the FAA to do it and was told they were undermanned, etc. The provided a list of DARs, most of which knew far less than I about our type of aircraft or even the proceedures to license it. In the end, I kept asking around at various FAA offices in the region and found an FAA inspector who did it for free. He asked how come I didn't look him up earlier in the process. From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 19:48:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 14:48:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: Message-ID: <001a01c31336$f97d3540$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C31315.71EE7600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FAR 91.205 is invoked through the operating limitations normally assigned to amateur built aircraft. http://www.tisco.com/aviation/FAA/far-91/far-91s205.shtml See 91.205(15) which refers to 91.207 http://www.tisco.com/aviation/FAA/far-91/far-91s207.shtml Then http://www.avionicswest.com/articles/eltupdate.htm provides information about the newer ELT's. So, unless your DAR/FSDO inspector fails to invoke 91.205 as part of your operating limitations, looks like you will have to install a TSO-C91a compliant ELT. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:ELT Does that apply to Experimental? I can't find the regulation anywhere that requires a remote access. Even looking at the ELTs themselves ... the ones without remote access says "TSO-C91a Approved" ... and they mention something about satellite technology. Do you know of any specifi wording and in what reg? FAR? -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Coen [mailto:lwcoen@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:52 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT A remote control head for an ELT is a requirement of TSO-C91a. All new manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO requirement. The remote head must be accessible from the pilot position. Larry Coen SE-RG Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Royer To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Considering the very bad record of ELT's not being automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would certainly want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is required or not. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT I can't seem to get a consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements. Do we have to have a panel annunciator and a remote switch on the panel? Or can we use a completely self contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear firewall? ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C31315.71EE7600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
FAR 91.205 is invoked through the operating = limitations=20 normally assigned to amateur built aircraft.
http:/= /www.tisco.com/aviation/FAA/far-91/far-91s205.shtml
 
See 91.205(15) which refers to 91.207
http:/= /www.tisco.com/aviation/FAA/far-91/far-91s207.shtml
 
Then http://www.av= ionicswest.com/articles/eltupdate.htm provides=20 information about the newer ELT's.
 
So, unless your DAR/FSDO inspector fails to invoke = 91.205 as=20 part of your operating limitations, looks like you will have to install = a=20 TSO-C91a compliant ELT.
 
Ronnie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:ELT

Does=20 that apply to Experimental?  I can't find the regulation anywhere = that=20 requires a remote access.  Even looking at the ELTs themselves ... = the ones=20 without remote access says "TSO-C91a Approved" ... and they mention = something=20 about satellite technology.
 
Do you=20 know of any specifi wording and in what reg?  FAR? =20
-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Coen=20 [mailto:lwcoen@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:52=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:ELT

A remote control head for an ELT is a = requirement=20 of TSO-C91a.  All new manufacture aircraft must meet this TSO=20 requirement.  The remote head must be accessible from the pilot=20 position.
 
Larry Coen
SE-RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Donald=20 Royer
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 3:49=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Considering the very bad record of ELT's not = being=20 automatically triggered in accidents. I would think that one would = certainly=20 want a remote switch on the panel for safety's sake whether it is = required=20 or not.
 
Don
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 = 1:32=20 PM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:ELT

I can’t seem = to get a=20 consistent answer on experimentals and ELT requirements.  Do we have to have a = panel=20 annunciator and a remote switch on the panel?  Or can we use a = completely self=20 contained unit and tuck it behind the trim panel at the rear=20 firewall? 

 

=
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C31315.71EE7600-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 20:56:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:56:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT In-Reply-To: <001a01c31336$f97d3540$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> References: <001a01c31336$f97d3540$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: --============_-1159957920==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ronnie, Great run down on the ELT requirements. We get into similar discussions about the use of not-certified equipment such as compasses and electronic displays in our experimental aircraft during IFR flight. Do you have as good a reference about those kinds of issues. I have always taken the position that 91.205 requires minimum equipment and since it assumes it is being installed in a certified aircraft the equipment would have to be TSO. In an experimental you can use what ever you want so long as you are able to navigate as required. I suppose you can shoot an ILS with a home made device so long as it works. I am not sure the minimum equipment even has to be certified but it is hard to get a straight answer. Jack N55XL --============_-1159957920==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:ELT
Ronnie,
Great run down on the ELT requirements. We get into similar discussions about the use of not-certified equipment such as compasses and electronic displays in our experimental aircraft during IFR flight. Do you have as good a reference about those kinds of issues. I have always taken the position that 91.205 requires minimum equipment and since it assumes it is being installed in a certified aircraft the equipment would have to be TSO.  In an experimental you can use what ever you want so long as you are able to navigate as required. I suppose you can shoot an ILS with a home made device so long as it works. I am not sure the minimum equipment even has to be certified but it is hard to get a straight answer.

Jack
N55XL
--============_-1159957920==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 21:12:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:12:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT References: <001a01c31336$f97d3540$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <012401c31342$974bc380$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0120_01C31321.0FCC4680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: REFLECTOR:ELTI ran into the "TSO requirements" when doing an upgrade to our Cessna's avionics for IFR. Turns out TSO is NOT required for radios unless installed in commercial carriers (so my avionics shop told me). I don't have the references, but several of the King DME's don't have TSO certifications. You're right, FAR 91.205 says what instruments are required but says nothing (except for ELT's) about these instruments being TSO'ed. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Sheehan To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Ronnie, Great run down on the ELT requirements. We get into similar discussions about the use of not-certified equipment such as compasses and electronic displays in our experimental aircraft during IFR flight. Do you have as good a reference about those kinds of issues. I have always taken the position that 91.205 requires minimum equipment and since it assumes it is being installed in a certified aircraft the equipment would have to be TSO. In an experimental you can use what ever you want so long as you are able to navigate as required. I suppose you can shoot an ILS with a home made device so long as it works. I am not sure the minimum equipment even has to be certified but it is hard to get a straight answer. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_0120_01C31321.0FCC4680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:ELT
I ran into the "TSO requirements" when doing an = upgrade to our=20 Cessna's avionics for IFR.  Turns out TSO is NOT required for = radios unless=20 installed in commercial carriers (so my avionics shop told me).  I = don't=20 have the references, but several of the King DME's don't = have TSO=20 certifications. 
 
You're right, FAR 91.205 says what instruments = are=20 required but says nothing (except for ELT's) about these instruments = being=20 TSO'ed.
 
Ronnie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jack=20 Sheehan
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT

Ronnie,
Great run down on the ELT requirements. We get into = similar=20 discussions about the use of not-certified equipment such as compasses = and=20 electronic displays in our experimental aircraft during IFR flight. Do = you have=20 as good a reference about those kinds of issues. I have always taken the = position that 91.205 requires minimum equipment and since it assumes it = is being=20 installed in a certified aircraft the equipment would have to be = TSO.  In=20 an experimental you can use what ever you want so long as you are able = to=20 navigate as required. I suppose you can shoot an ILS with a home made = device so=20 long as it works. I am not sure the minimum equipment even has to be = certified=20 but it is hard to get a straight answer.

Jack
N55XL
------=_NextPart_000_0120_01C31321.0FCC4680-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 21:13:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 16:13:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C31321.39910640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: REFLECTOR:ELTJack, Found the picture of you plane on Bob Hugel's site. I love the paint scheme. One sharp looking machine. Do you have any more pictures. I'm thinking I want to copy you. (If you don't mind) Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:56 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:ELT Ronnie, Great run down on the ELT requirements. We get into similar discussions about the use of not-certified equipment such as compasses and electronic displays in our experimental aircraft during IFR flight. Do you have as good a reference about those kinds of issues. I have always taken the position that 91.205 requires minimum equipment and since it assumes it is being installed in a certified aircraft the equipment would have to be TSO. In an experimental you can use what ever you want so long as you are able to navigate as required. I suppose you can shoot an ILS with a home made device so long as it works. I am not sure the minimum equipment even has to be certified but it is hard to get a straight answer. Jack N55XL ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C31321.39910640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:ELT
Jack,
 
Found=20 the picture of you plane on Bob Hugel's site.  I love the paint=20 scheme.  One sharp looking machine.
 
Do you=20 have any more pictures.  I'm thinking I want to copy=20 you.
 
(If=20 you don't mind)
 
Best,
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jack=20 Sheehan
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 3:56 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:ELT

Ronnie,
Great run down on the ELT requirements. We get = into similar=20 discussions about the use of not-certified equipment such as compasses = and=20 electronic displays in our experimental aircraft during IFR flight. Do = you=20 have as good a reference about those kinds of issues. I have always = taken the=20 position that 91.205 requires minimum equipment and since it assumes = it is=20 being installed in a certified aircraft the equipment would have to be = TSO.  In an experimental you can use what ever you want so long = as you=20 are able to navigate as required. I suppose you can shoot an ILS with = a home=20 made device so long as it works. I am not sure the minimum equipment = even has=20 to be certified but it is hard to get a straight answer.

Jack
N55XL
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C31321.39910640-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 5 22:18:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:18:27 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Legal Charts References: Message-ID: <3EB6D523.3060005@tnstaafl.net> A discussion came up at the airport yesterday about legal charts. I told everyone that I fly with WAC's because Sectionals are to small requiring to much paper shuffle in my plane. Lots of "Deer in the Headlights" looks from the 172 drivers! I carry TAC's for Vegas, Pheonix, L.A. and SFO. Then somebody said WAC's arn't legal charts, only Sectionals. I asked to be shown the reg. that states that and nobody could find it. Anybody know what regulation stipulates what charts are required. The only thing I could find was in the AIM and it "recommends" WAC's for medium fast airplanes. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 00:28:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:28:50 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question Message-ID: <114.22e39a21.2be84db2@aol.com> --part1_114.22e39a21.2be84db2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check for intake air leak Mack --part1_114.22e39a21.2be84db2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check for intake air leak &= nbsp;     Mack --part1_114.22e39a21.2be84db2_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 00:30:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:30:23 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Lycoming Question Message-ID: <1d6.8ee7784.2be84e0f@aol.com> --part1_1d6.8ee7784.2be84e0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen Mack --part1_1d6.8ee7784.2be84e0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amen
Mack --part1_1d6.8ee7784.2be84e0f_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 00:44:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 23:44:17 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: [Canards] Legal Charts Message-ID: The only chart that I carry is a VFR Terminal Chart if I fly in that Class B Airspace...That's required...The rest is just having the necessary information for your departure and arrival airports and in-route flight... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 00:48:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:48:44 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Legal Charts In-Reply-To: <3EB6D523.3060005@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, We just had noted author and attorney Rick Durden speak to our chapter. He addressed this topic specifically. A pilot is required to familiarize himself with all relevant information surrounding the flight. There is no requirement that any charts be carried. Yes, this actually includes IFR approach plates. If you think you are smart enough to memorize all of the ones you will need then legally you "can" do it. Now, if you don't properly plan for the flight then it's your ... Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:18 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org; Canards@tnstaafl.net Subject: REFLECTOR:Legal Charts A discussion came up at the airport yesterday about legal charts. I told everyone that I fly with WAC's because Sectionals are to small requiring to much paper shuffle in my plane. Lots of "Deer in the Headlights" looks from the 172 drivers! I carry TAC's for Vegas, Pheonix, L.A. and SFO. Then somebody said WAC's arn't legal charts, only Sectionals. I asked to be shown the reg. that states that and nobody could find it. Anybody know what regulation stipulates what charts are required. The only thing I could find was in the AIM and it "recommends" WAC's for medium fast airplanes. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 01:30:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:30:19 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Message-ID: <000a01c31366$ad3e0260$2982560c@Workshop> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3133C.C3989C70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove the = tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3133C.C3989C70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My FG nose gear tire is flat.  Can = somebody=20 tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It looks like the = fork has=20 everything trapped.
 
Doug Holub
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C3133C.C3989C70-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 01:50:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:50:43 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Legal Charts Message-ID: In the Los Angeles Special Flight Rules Area... Pilots shall have a current Los Angeles Terminal Area Chart in the aircraft... This is rule #5 printed on the chart... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 02:06:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:06:26 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Message-ID: <1a8.13a6d79f.2be86492@aol.com> --part1_1a8.13a6d79f.2be86492_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll talk about the XL. First there is a set screw in the fork that prevents the axle from being removed. It is a hex head set screw---and look carefully for there is a second one in the same hole so the first one locks the second so it can not drop out. Remove the hex head set screws, then apply a screwdriver in the screwdriver slot in the end of the axle and screw it out. Once the axle is removed you can take the wheel and tire out of the fork. Then make usre all pressure is removed form the tube and remove the tire and tube. When I recently had to remove my front wheel I found that the axle would not turn even though I had removed the set screws. As it turned out, the axle was bent (hard landing?) and would not turn. I then had to cut the axle in two using a dremel with a cut-off wheel. I ordered a new axle from Velocity (about $15), and replaced the bent one. This the answer you are seeking, or have I missed the point? Bob Wood N658SE --part1_1a8.13a6d79f.2be86492_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll talk about the XL.

First there is a set screw in the fork that prevents the axle from being rem= oved. It is a hex head set screw---and look carefully for there is a second=20= one in the same hole so the first one locks the second so it can not drop ou= t.

Remove the hex head set screws, then apply a screwdriver in the screwdriver=20= slot in the end of the axle and screw it out.

Once the axle is removed you can take the wheel and tire out of the fork. Th= en make usre all pressure is removed form the tube and remove the tire and t= ube.

When I recently had to remove my front wheel I found that the axle would not= turn even though I had removed the set screws. As it turned out, the axle w= as bent (hard landing?) and would not turn. I then had to cut the axle in tw= o using a dremel with a cut-off wheel. I ordered a new axle from Velocity (a= bout $15), and replaced the bent one.

This the answer you are seeking, or have I missed the point?

Bob Wood
N658SE --part1_1a8.13a6d79f.2be86492_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 02:11:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:11:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal References: <000a01c31366$ad3e0260$2982560c@Workshop> Message-ID: <000e01c3136c$670851a0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C3134A.DF780BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Back out the allen set screw and unscrew the axle. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: douglas holub=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:30 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove the = tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C3134A.DF780BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Back out the allen set screw and = unscrew the=20 axle.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 douglas holub
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:30 = PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

My FG nose gear tire is flat.  = Can somebody=20 tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It looks like the = fork has=20 everything trapped.
 
Doug = Holub
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C3134A.DF780BC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 02:12:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:12:20 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal References: <000a01c31366$ad3e0260$2982560c@Workshop> Message-ID: <002101c3136c$8b34e0c0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3134B.03BE8B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First you will have to remove the wheel from the fork: remove the set screw that holds the axle in, then unscrew the axle from the fork. Now remove the wheel from the fork. Before removing the 3-4 bolts that hold the two wheel halves together, break the tire bead loose from the wheel. Do this before splitting the wheel in half. Its too hard to do otherwise. Now you can split the two halves and remove the tire and tube and fix the leak. When reassembling the tire and tube, sprinkle some talcum powder (baby powder) on the inside of the tire to aid the tube going sliding into its place as the tire is reinflated. Hope this helps, Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: douglas holub To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:30 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove the tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3134B.03BE8B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First you will have to remove the wheel from the = fork: remove=20 the set screw that holds the axle in, then unscrew the axle from the = fork. =20 Now remove the wheel from the fork.
 
Before removing the 3-4 bolts that hold the two = wheel halves=20 together, break the tire bead loose from the wheel.  Do this before = splitting the wheel in half.  Its too hard to do otherwise.  = Now you=20 can split the two halves and remove the tire and tube and fix the=20 leak.
 
When reassembling the tire and tube, sprinkle = some talcum=20 powder (baby powder) on the inside of the tire to aid the tube = going=20 sliding into its place as the tire is reinflated. 
 
Hope this helps,
Ronnie
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: douglas holub
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:30 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal

My FG nose gear tire is flat.  Can = somebody=20 tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It looks like the = fork has=20 everything trapped.
 
Doug Holub
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3134B.03BE8B80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 02:19:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:19:21 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal References: <000a01c31366$ad3e0260$2982560c@Workshop> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C31343.9CD27280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doug,=20 I am guessing that you are not the builder of your aircraft. The wheel = needs to be removed from the fork by extracting the axle. The wheel has = through bolts that when removed allow the wheel to be separated into two = halves which allows the tire to be removed. The rest is obvious. Larry Coen=20 SE RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: douglas holub=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove the = tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C31343.9CD27280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Doug,
 
I am guessing that you are not the = builder of your=20 aircraft.  The wheel needs to be removed from the fork by = extracting the=20 axle.  The wheel has through bolts that when removed allow the = wheel to be=20 separated into two halves which allows the tire to be removed.  The = rest is=20 obvious.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 douglas holub
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:30 = PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

My FG nose gear tire is flat.  = Can somebody=20 tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It looks like the = fork has=20 everything trapped.
 
Doug = Holub
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C31343.9CD27280-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 02:34:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:34:16 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:nose wheel - shimmy In-Reply-To: <002101c3136c$8b34e0c0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000001c3136f$9ed2f970$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C31334.F2742170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The discussion about the nose wheel reminded me of a thought (well; even a little analysis) I had some time back but never mentioned here. My tentative conclusion was that the tendency for nose wheel shimmy could be caused by; or at least exacerbated by, the relatively square shape of the traction surface of the tire used. Looking at the forces involved; seems to me that the right caster angle and round tire face should be much less likely to shimmy. Has anyone tried a "round" tire, like those used for most tail wheels? Al Gietzen ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C31334.F2742170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

The discussion about the nose = wheel reminded me of a thought (well; even a little analysis) I had some time = back but never mentioned here.  My tentative conclusion was that the = tendency for nose wheel shimmy could be caused by; or at least exacerbated by, = the relatively square shape of the traction surface of the tire used.  = Looking at the forces involved; seems to me that the right caster angle and = round tire face should be much less likely to shimmy.  Has anyone tried a = “round” tire, like those used for most tail wheels?

 

Al Gietzen

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C31334.F2742170-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 02:40:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:40:29 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal References: <000a01c31366$ad3e0260$2982560c@Workshop> Message-ID: <001501c31370$7aa9a930$8a12570c@Workshop> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C31346.91175610 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks everybody. This wheel assembly is 16 years old, and maybe it = doesn't look like yours do now. There's only one long set screw. The = axle is as long as the fork is wide. I can see a 5/8" axle flush with = the outside of both sides of the fork, but the axle is 3/4" where it = goes through the wheel bearings. Both ends of the axle have a tapped = hole in the center; that's where my wheel pant attaches. There's no = screwdriver slot with which to turn the axle. I wonder if the 3/4" = diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is 5/8" diameter and just = pressed in. Doug ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Laurence Coen=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Doug,=20 I am guessing that you are not the builder of your aircraft. The = wheel needs to be removed from the fork by extracting the axle. The = wheel has through bolts that when removed allow the wheel to be = separated into two halves which allows the tire to be removed. The rest = is obvious. Larry Coen=20 SE RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: douglas holub=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove = the tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C31346.91175610 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks everybody.  This wheel = assembly is 16=20 years old, and maybe it doesn't look like yours do now.  There's = only one=20 long set screw.  The axle is as long as the fork is = wide.  I can=20 see a 5/8" axle flush with the outside of both sides of the fork, = but the=20 axle is 3/4" where it goes through the wheel bearings.  Both ends = of the=20 axle have a tapped hole in the center; that's where my wheel pant=20 attaches.  There's no screwdriver slot with which to turn the = axle.  I=20 wonder if the 3/4" diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is 5/8" = diameter=20 and just pressed in.
 
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Laurence Coen=20
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:19 = PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

Doug,
 
I am guessing that you are not the = builder of=20 your aircraft.  The wheel needs to be removed from the fork by = extracting=20 the axle.  The wheel has through bolts that when removed allow = the wheel=20 to be separated into two halves which allows the tire to be = removed.  The=20 rest is obvious.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 douglas holub
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 = 7:30=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

My FG nose gear tire is flat.  = Can=20 somebody tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It looks = like=20 the fork has everything trapped.
 
Doug=20 Holub
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C31346.91175610-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 01:21:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 00:21:15 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Message-ID: <200305060021.h460LO7s011944@dax.awpi.com> My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to get the tire and tube off? It looks to me like the fork has everything trapped. From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 04:10:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:10:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal In-Reply-To: <001501c31370$7aa9a930$8a12570c@Workshop> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3135B.86EE1F10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug, Contact Quint Daniel. His kit was DMO50. He bought it back in 1984. I'll bet his wheel is the same as yours. He is a great guy, and should be able to answer your question. His e-mail address is QNDaniel@aol.com He is not on the reflector yet. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of douglas holub Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:40 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Thanks everybody. This wheel assembly is 16 years old, and maybe it doesn't look like yours do now. There's only one long set screw. The axle is as long as the fork is wide. I can see a 5/8" axle flush with the outside of both sides of the fork, but the axle is 3/4" where it goes through the wheel bearings. Both ends of the axle have a tapped hole in the center; that's where my wheel pant attaches. There's no screwdriver slot with which to turn the axle. I wonder if the 3/4" diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is 5/8" diameter and just pressed in. Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Coen To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Doug, I am guessing that you are not the builder of your aircraft. The wheel needs to be removed from the fork by extracting the axle. The wheel has through bolts that when removed allow the wheel to be separated into two halves which allows the tire to be removed. The rest is obvious. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: douglas holub To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove the tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3135B.86EE1F10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Doug,
 
Contact Quint Daniel.  His kit was DMO50.  He bought = it back in=20 1984.  I'll bet his wheel is the same as yours.  He is a great = guy,=20 and should be able to answer your question.
 
His=20 e-mail address is QNDaniel@aol.com
=
 
He is=20 not on the reflector yet.
 
Best,
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of douglas=20 holub
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 9:40 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire = removal

Thanks everybody.  This wheel = assembly is 16=20 years old, and maybe it doesn't look like yours do now.  There's = only one=20 long set screw.  The axle is as long as the fork is = wide.  I=20 can see a 5/8" axle flush with the outside of both sides of the = fork, but=20 the axle is 3/4" where it goes through the wheel bearings.  Both = ends of=20 the axle have a tapped hole in the center; that's where my wheel pant=20 attaches.  There's no screwdriver slot with which to turn the = axle. =20 I wonder if the 3/4" diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is = 5/8"=20 diameter and just pressed in.
 
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Laurence=20 Coen
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 = 8:19=20 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG = nose wheel=20 tire removal

Doug,
 
I am guessing that you are not the = builder of=20 your aircraft.  The wheel needs to be removed from the fork by=20 extracting the axle.  The wheel has through bolts that when = removed=20 allow the wheel to be separated into two halves which allows the = tire to be=20 removed.  The rest is obvious.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 douglas holub =
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 = 7:30=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

My FG nose gear tire is = flat.  Can=20 somebody tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It = looks like=20 the fork has everything trapped.
 
Doug=20 Holub
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C3135B.86EE1F10-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 04:16:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:16:23 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:ELT Message-ID: <25.386092c2.2be88307@aol.com> --part1_25.386092c2.2be88307_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit see FAR 91.207 --part1_25.386092c2.2be88307_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable see FAR 91.207 --part1_25.386092c2.2be88307_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 01:07:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:07:30 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <3EB68328.2010907@tnstaafl.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030504171119.023b4370@pop.charter.net> <3EB5D186.2050501@tnstaafl.net> <3EB5D86D.3BB22EAD@sbcglobal.net> <3EB667F0.3000207@tnstaafl.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030505075048.025ed7e0@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030505165816.0430b7d0@pop.charter.net> I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) One of the strange things about engineering composites is that usually - and almost always with fiberglass - you're engineering for stiffness rather than for strength. Lets say that you want an airplane that has an ultimate load factor of 6 Gs. So you come up with exactly the right laminate sequence so the wings will break at 6 Gs. You'll find that at about 2 Gs the wings will be bent so far upward that the ailerons don't work anymore. I wouldn't make any primary structure out of WEST. I would feel comfortable *assembling* primary structure out of WEST. Just as an example, I wouldn't make a spar out of it, I wouldn't make strake skins. I wouldn't do foamcore wings in WEST. But I'd have no problem installing strakes and bulkheads with WEST. I'd have no problem doing T tapes in WEST and bonding on the top strake skin with WEST flox. (But Pro-Set gelled adhesive works much better) At 09:28 AM 5/5/03 -0600, you wrote: >Richard, > >Are you saying the Pro-Set Epoxy is OK for structural laminates and >the West System brand is not? On the West System web site there is very >detailed instructions on how to do laminate lay-ups with West System Epoxy. > >Scott > >richard@riley.net wrote: >>The epoxy people use the terms laminating epoxy and assembly epoxy. >>They think of MGS, EZ-Poxy and the like as laminating - that's what you >>actually *make* things out of, like spars, bulkheads, skins, etc. WEST >>would be an assembly epoxy. >>If you're building from a kit, the overwhelming majority of what you do >>is assembly, especially if the wings are pre-molded. >>Gougeon's laminating system is Pro-Set, and it's a joy to work with. >>They also have a Pro-Set line of thixotropic, gelled resin that's >>wonderful for closing strakes, it's used with a gun and a static mixer. >> >>At 09:41 AM 5/5/03 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>I was curious about this a couple of years ago because I liked the quicker >>>setup times and less obnoxious fumes from the West system. At that time, >>>the factory said that they were using West just for filling. I called >>>Gougeon Bros. and talked to an engineer there. He said that the West system >>>had been used structurally in composite aircraft. When I looked at the >>>specs, I think I remember that West had slightly less strength and a little >>>lower transition temperature than EZ Poxy. >>>----- Original Message ----- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 05:17:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 22:17:03 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal References: <000a01c31366$ad3e0260$2982560c@Workshop> <001501c31370$7aa9a930$8a12570c@Workshop> Message-ID: <002b01c31386$597e4a20$d6229c40@dr> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C31354.0E2B3880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This post makes it clear what is causing you trouble.The 3/4" diameter = part(s) are simply bushings on the 5/8" axle that keep the wheel = centered on the axle. The axle is 5/8" all the way through and it is = threaded into the fork on the side opposite the set screw. Remove the = set screw and the axle can then be screwed out by screwing a short bolt = into the tapped hole where the wheel pant is attached on the side of the = fork opposite the set screw, and turning the axle using the head of the = short bolt. Use an AN or grade 8 short bolt, because if it has been a = while since the axle has been removed it might turn pretty hard and you = don't want twist off the little bolt. Once the axle is removed, the wheel may or may not come out of the fork = in one piece. If the bosses on the inside of the fork keep you from = removing the wheel in one piece you will have to take the wheel haves = apart while the wheel is still in the fork as was described in several = of the posts. Don ----- Original Message -----=20 From: douglas holub=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Thanks everybody. This wheel assembly is 16 years old, and maybe it = doesn't look like yours do now. There's only one long set screw. The = axle is as long as the fork is wide. I can see a 5/8" axle flush with = the outside of both sides of the fork, but the axle is 3/4" where it = goes through the wheel bearings. Both ends of the axle have a tapped = hole in the center; that's where my wheel pant attaches. There's no = screwdriver slot with which to turn the axle. I wonder if the 3/4" = diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is 5/8" diameter and just = pressed in. Doug ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Laurence Coen=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:19 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Doug,=20 I am guessing that you are not the builder of your aircraft. The = wheel needs to be removed from the fork by extracting the axle. The = wheel has through bolts that when removed allow the wheel to be = separated into two halves which allows the tire to be removed. The rest = is obvious. Larry Coen=20 SE RG Franklin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: douglas holub=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove = the tire and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. Doug Holub ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C31354.0E2B3880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This post makes it clear what is causing you = trouble.The 3/4"=20 diameter part(s) are simply bushings on the 5/8" axle that keep the = wheel=20 centered on the axle. The axle is 5/8" all the way through and it is = threaded=20 into the fork on the side opposite the set screw. Remove the set screw = and the=20 axle can then be screwed out by screwing a short bolt into the tapped = hole where=20 the wheel pant is attached on the side of the fork opposite the set=20 screw, and turning the axle using the head of the short bolt. Use = an AN or=20 grade 8 short bolt,  because if it has been a while since the axle = has been=20 removed it might turn pretty hard and you don't want twist off the = little=20 bolt.
 
Once the axle is removed, the wheel may or may not = come out of=20 the fork in one piece. If the bosses on the inside of the fork keep you = from=20 removing the wheel in one piece you will have to take the wheel haves = apart=20 while the wheel is still in the fork as was described in several of the=20 posts.
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 douglas holub
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:40 = PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

Thanks everybody.  This wheel = assembly is 16=20 years old, and maybe it doesn't look like yours do now.  There's = only one=20 long set screw.  The axle is as long as the fork is = wide.  I=20 can see a 5/8" axle flush with the outside of both sides of the = fork, but=20 the axle is 3/4" where it goes through the wheel bearings.  Both = ends of=20 the axle have a tapped hole in the center; that's where my wheel pant=20 attaches.  There's no screwdriver slot with which to turn the = axle. =20 I wonder if the 3/4" diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is = 5/8"=20 diameter and just pressed in.
 
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Laurence=20 Coen
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 = 8:19=20 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG = nose wheel=20 tire removal

Doug,
 
I am guessing that you are not the = builder of=20 your aircraft.  The wheel needs to be removed from the fork by=20 extracting the axle.  The wheel has through bolts that when = removed=20 allow the wheel to be separated into two halves which allows the = tire to be=20 removed.  The rest is obvious.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 douglas holub =
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 = 7:30=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose = wheel tire=20 removal

My FG nose gear tire is = flat.  Can=20 somebody tell me how to remove the tire and the tube?  It = looks like=20 the fork has everything trapped.
 
Doug=20 Holub
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C31354.0E2B3880-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 13:41:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (lawrence epstein) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 12:41:55 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE Message-ID: Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? Larry Epstein 173 FGE >I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet >than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 14:53:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:53:06 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: <001501c313d6$d291b780$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C313B5.4B248A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Insurance woes! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Brown" To: "Jim Nelson" Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Quote on the Velocity > Thanks for trying. This is nearly double the previous quote in November > ($550 same coverage) and much more training required. I already have 22 > hours and 39 full stop landings in my Velocity. The requirement for > additional training in my aircraft can't be accomplished until the 40 flight > test hours are flown off. > > Insurance is costing more, with more restrictions and exceptions, more > training requirements. Won't be long, and Falcon will be out there with > Avemco! > > When should I reapply (how many hours in type, how many full stop landings, > etc.) with a more reasonable yearly premium? THE REPLY WAS THERE WILL NOT BE ANY REDUCTIONS IN PREMIUM! > > Regards, > Roland Brown > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Nelson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:41 PM > Subject: Quote on the Velocity > > > > Roland: > > > > Here is a quote for liability only for you. Please note the additional > dual > > requirements at the bottom. If you have any questions, please contact me. > > > > FROM: JIM NELSON FAX 512-891-8483 PHONE: 1-866-647-4322 > > DATE: 4/22/03 > > > > > > EMAIL QUOTE REQUEST > > > > > > NAME INSURED: Roland Brown > > ADDRESS: 20106 Norman Colony Road > > CITY/STATE/ZIP CODE: Cornelius, NC 28031-7143 > > OCCUPATION: Retired EAA Number: YES > > > > CURRENT INS. CO.: Just completed EXPIRATION DATE: > > > > AIRCRAFT: 2002 Velocity 173 RG, N713MR, 4 seats > > > > AIRCRAFT STATUS/ > > LOCATION: Hangared at Lake Norman > > > > AIRCRAFT USE(S): Pleasure and Business Use, excluding any operation > > for which a charge is made. > > > > HULL VALUE: $0 > > HULL PREMIUM: $ > > > > DEDUCTIBLES: NOT-IN-MOTION: $0 IN-MOTION: $0 > > > > LIMIT OF LIABILITY: $500,000 Combined single limit bodily injury and > > property damage limited to $100,000 bodily injury per passenger. > > LIABILITY PREMIUM: $1000 > > > > MEDICAL PAYMENTS: $1,000 PER PASSENGER (CREW INCLUDED) > > MEDICAL PREMIUM: $15 > > > > > > TOTAL ANNUAL PREMIUM: $1015 > > > > PILOT INFORMATION: Roland Brown, 58, PVT, ASEL-I, 890TT, 14 R/G, 14MM > > no lvw > > ***Roland must log an additional 10 hours > > dual flight instruction in the insured aircraft to include 10 take off and > > landings to a full stop. He must then log 5 hours solo time prior to > > carrying passengers. The CFI giving the instruction must have 1500TT, > 500RG > > and 50 hours in Velocity RG's. > > > > OPW: Named pilots only. > > > > > > REMARKS: Roland Brown has successfully attend and completed the Velocity > > in-flight training school for this aircraft. > > > > Jim Nelson e-mail: jnelson@falconinsurance.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C313B5.4B248A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Insurance woes!  =

----- Original Message = -----
From: "Ronnie=20 Brown" <romott@adelphia.net>
To: "Jim = Nelson"=20 <jnelson@falconinsurance.com>
Sent: Friday,=20 April 25, 2003 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Quote on the = Velocity


>=20 Thanks for trying.  This is nearly double the previous quote in=20 November
> ($550 same coverage) and much more training = required.  I=20 already have 22
> hours and 39 full stop landings in my=20 Velocity.  The requirement for
> additional training in my = aircraft=20 can't be accomplished until the 40
flight
> test hours are = flown=20 off.
>
> Insurance is costing more, with more restrictions = and=20 exceptions, more
> training requirements. Won't be long, and = Falcon will=20 be out there with
> Avemco!
>
> When should I reapply = (how=20 many hours in type, how many full stop
landings,
> etc.) with a = more=20 reasonable yearly premium?  THE REPLY WAS THERE WILL NOT BE ANY = REDUCTIONS=20 IN PREMIUM!
>
> Regards,
> Roland=20 Brown
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: = "Jim=20 Nelson" <jnelson@falconinsurance.com>
> To:=20 <romott@adelphia.net>
> Sent: = Tuesday,=20 April 22, 2003 2:41 PM
> Subject: Quote on the=20 Velocity
>
>
> > Roland:
> >
> > = Here is=20 a quote for liability only for you.  Please note the = additional
>=20 dual
> > requirements at the bottom.  If you have any = questions,=20 please contact
me.
> >
> > FROM:  JIM = NELSON  FAX=20 512-891-8483 PHONE:  1-866-647-4322
> > DATE: =20 4/22/03
> >
> >
> > EMAIL QUOTE = REQUEST
>=20 >
> >
> > NAME INSURED: Roland Brown
> > = ADDRESS:=20 20106 Norman Colony Road
> > CITY/STATE/ZIP CODE: Cornelius, = NC =20 28031-7143
> > OCCUPATION: Retired EAA Number:  = YES
>=20 >
> > CURRENT INS. CO.: Just completed EXPIRATION = DATE:
>=20 >
> > AIRCRAFT: 2002 Velocity 173 RG, N713MR, 4 = seats
>=20 >
> > AIRCRAFT STATUS/
> > LOCATION: Hangared at = Lake=20 Norman
> >
> > AIRCRAFT USE(S): Pleasure and Business = Use,=20 excluding any operation
> > for which a charge is made.
> = >
> > HULL VALUE:  $0
> > HULL PREMIUM: =20 $
> >
> > DEDUCTIBLES: NOT-IN-MOTION:  =20 $0          = IN-MOTION: =20 $0
> >
> > LIMIT OF LIABILITY:  $500,000 Combined = single=20 limit bodily injury and
> > property damage limited to $100,000 = bodily=20 injury per passenger.
> > LIABILITY PREMIUM:  = $1000
>=20 >
> > MEDICAL PAYMENTS:  $1,000 PER PASSENGER (CREW=20 INCLUDED)
> > MEDICAL PREMIUM:  $15
> >
>=20 >
> > TOTAL ANNUAL PREMIUM:  $1015
> >
> = >=20 PILOT INFORMATION: Roland Brown, 58, PVT, ASEL-I, 890TT, 14 R/G, = 14MM
>=20 > no lvw
> > ***Roland must log an additional 10 = hours
> >=20 dual flight instruction in the insured aircraft to include 10 take=20 off
and
> > landings to a full stop.  He must then log = 5 hours=20 solo time prior to
> > carrying passengers.  The CFI = giving the=20 instruction must have 1500TT,
> 500RG
> > and 50 hours in = Velocity RG's.
> >
> > OPW: Named pilots only.
> = >
> >
> > REMARKS: Roland Brown has successfully = attend and=20 completed the Velocity
> > in-flight training school for this=20 aircraft.
> >
> > Jim Nelson e-mail:  jnelson@falconinsurance.com
>=20 >
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C313B5.4B248A00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 15:00:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 07:00:34 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c313d7$e08959a0$6400a8c0@BigAl> Tensile strength is primarily from the fibers; compressive strength is primarily from the epoxy. "Stiffness", as in bending, is a combination of the two. Al Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? Larry Epstein 173 FGE >I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet >than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 15:05:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:05:41 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: Message-ID: <3EB7C135.3030609@tnstaafl.net> Larry, I was under the same impression. I've heard figures like 95% of the strength is from the glass. Scott lawrence epstein wrote: > Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small > percentage of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. > "strength" is derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the > fibers lined up? > > Larry Epstein > 173 FGE > >> I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >> stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with >> ProSet than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) >> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 15:16:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:16:13 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: <001501c313d6$d291b780$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3EB7C3AD.6060909@tnstaafl.net> Tell Falcon to take a long walk on a short pier. Can Ron get insurance from AUA? I just renewed this week and for $1M liability and non-flight $85K Hull for less than $900 total. I could have got in-flight hull/liability for $1700. Call Pam at AUA or email her: pam@auaonline.com Scott Ronnie Brown wrote: > Insurance woes! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ronnie Brown" > > To: "Jim Nelson" > > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:33 AM > Subject: Re: Quote on the Velocity > > > > Thanks for trying. This is nearly double the previous quote in November > > ($550 same coverage) and much more training required. I already have 22 > > hours and 39 full stop landings in my Velocity. The requirement for > > additional training in my aircraft can't be accomplished until the 40 > flight > > test hours are flown off. > > > > Insurance is costing more, with more restrictions and exceptions, more > > training requirements. Won't be long, and Falcon will be out there with > > Avemco! > > > > When should I reapply (how many hours in type, how many full stop > landings, > > etc.) with a more reasonable yearly premium? THE REPLY WAS THERE > WILL NOT BE ANY REDUCTIONS IN PREMIUM! > > > > Regards, > > Roland Brown > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Nelson" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:41 PM > > Subject: Quote on the Velocity > > > > > > > Roland: > > > > > > Here is a quote for liability only for you. Please note the additional > > dual > > > requirements at the bottom. If you have any questions, please contact > me. > > > > > > FROM: JIM NELSON FAX 512-891-8483 PHONE: 1-866-647-4322 > > > DATE: 4/22/03 > > > > > > > > > EMAIL QUOTE REQUEST > > > > > > > > > NAME INSURED: Roland Brown > > > ADDRESS: 20106 Norman Colony Road > > > CITY/STATE/ZIP CODE: Cornelius, NC 28031-7143 > > > OCCUPATION: Retired EAA Number: YES > > > > > > CURRENT INS. CO.: Just completed EXPIRATION DATE: > > > > > > AIRCRAFT: 2002 Velocity 173 RG, N713MR, 4 seats > > > > > > AIRCRAFT STATUS/ > > > LOCATION: Hangared at Lake Norman > > > > > > AIRCRAFT USE(S): Pleasure and Business Use, excluding any operation > > > for which a charge is made. > > > > > > HULL VALUE: $0 > > > HULL PREMIUM: $ > > > > > > DEDUCTIBLES: NOT-IN-MOTION: $0 IN-MOTION: $0 > > > > > > LIMIT OF LIABILITY: $500,000 Combined single limit bodily injury and > > > property damage limited to $100,000 bodily injury per passenger. > > > LIABILITY PREMIUM: $1000 > > > > > > MEDICAL PAYMENTS: $1,000 PER PASSENGER (CREW INCLUDED) > > > MEDICAL PREMIUM: $15 > > > > > > > > > TOTAL ANNUAL PREMIUM: $1015 > > > > > > PILOT INFORMATION: Roland Brown, 58, PVT, ASEL-I, 890TT, 14 R/G, 14MM > > > no lvw > > > ***Roland must log an additional 10 hours > > > dual flight instruction in the insured aircraft to include 10 take off > and > > > landings to a full stop. He must then log 5 hours solo time prior to > > > carrying passengers. The CFI giving the instruction must have 1500TT, > > 500RG > > > and 50 hours in Velocity RG's. > > > > > > OPW: Named pilots only. > > > > > > > > > REMARKS: Roland Brown has successfully attend and completed the > Velocity > > > in-flight training school for this aircraft. > > > > > > Jim Nelson e-mail: jnelson@falconinsurance.com > > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 15:21:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 10:21:51 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: <1e7.85a078c.2be91eff@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/03 7:18:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, scott@tnstaafl.net writes: << Tell Falcon to take a long walk on a short pier. Can Ron get insurance from AUA? I just renewed this week and for $1M liability and non-flight $85K Hull for less than $900 total. I could have got in-flight hull/liability for $1700. Call Pam at AUA or email her: pam@auaonline.com >> Me too. I got the whole package for $1700.00 from AUA. CALL!! From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 15:54:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (lawrence epstein) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:54:34 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE Message-ID: Thank you Al. Good to see you are still paying atttention! You have always been "the source" on epoxy issues. LJE Tensile strength is primarily from the fibers; compressive strength is >primarily from the epoxy. "Stiffness", as in bending, is a combination >of the two. > >Al > >Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small >percentage >of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" >is >derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? > >Larry Epstein >173 FGE > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 17:28:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 11:28:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3EB7C3AD.6060909@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Strange. I talked to Pam to get insurance. I'm getting a loan for avionics, and am thinking the bank is going to want the airplane insured while it sits in my house, in my garage, getting built. I was quoted $1300/year for this. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:16 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > Tell Falcon to take a long walk on a short pier. > > Can Ron get insurance from AUA? I just renewed this week and for $1M > liability and non-flight $85K Hull for less than $900 total. I could > have got in-flight hull/liability for $1700. > > Call Pam at AUA or email her: pam@auaonline.com > > Scott > > Ronnie Brown wrote: > > Insurance woes! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ronnie Brown" > > > To: "Jim Nelson" > > > > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:33 AM > > Subject: Re: Quote on the Velocity > > > > > > > Thanks for trying. This is nearly double the previous quote > in November > > > ($550 same coverage) and much more training required. I > already have 22 > > > hours and 39 full stop landings in my Velocity. The requirement for > > > additional training in my aircraft can't be accomplished until the 40 > > flight > > > test hours are flown off. > > > > > > Insurance is costing more, with more restrictions and > exceptions, more > > > training requirements. Won't be long, and Falcon will be out > there with > > > Avemco! > > > > > > When should I reapply (how many hours in type, how many full stop > > landings, > > > etc.) with a more reasonable yearly premium? THE REPLY WAS THERE > > WILL NOT BE ANY REDUCTIONS IN PREMIUM! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Roland Brown > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jim Nelson" > > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:41 PM > > > Subject: Quote on the Velocity > > > > > > > > > > Roland: > > > > > > > > Here is a quote for liability only for you. Please note > the additional > > > dual > > > > requirements at the bottom. If you have any questions, > please contact > > me. > > > > > > > > FROM: JIM NELSON FAX 512-891-8483 PHONE: 1-866-647-4322 > > > > DATE: 4/22/03 > > > > > > > > > > > > EMAIL QUOTE REQUEST > > > > > > > > > > > > NAME INSURED: Roland Brown > > > > ADDRESS: 20106 Norman Colony Road > > > > CITY/STATE/ZIP CODE: Cornelius, NC 28031-7143 > > > > OCCUPATION: Retired EAA Number: YES > > > > > > > > CURRENT INS. CO.: Just completed EXPIRATION DATE: > > > > > > > > AIRCRAFT: 2002 Velocity 173 RG, N713MR, 4 seats > > > > > > > > AIRCRAFT STATUS/ > > > > LOCATION: Hangared at Lake Norman > > > > > > > > AIRCRAFT USE(S): Pleasure and Business Use, excluding any operation > > > > for which a charge is made. > > > > > > > > HULL VALUE: $0 > > > > HULL PREMIUM: $ > > > > > > > > DEDUCTIBLES: NOT-IN-MOTION: $0 IN-MOTION: $0 > > > > > > > > LIMIT OF LIABILITY: $500,000 Combined single limit bodily > injury and > > > > property damage limited to $100,000 bodily injury per passenger. > > > > LIABILITY PREMIUM: $1000 > > > > > > > > MEDICAL PAYMENTS: $1,000 PER PASSENGER (CREW INCLUDED) > > > > MEDICAL PREMIUM: $15 > > > > > > > > > > > > TOTAL ANNUAL PREMIUM: $1015 > > > > > > > > PILOT INFORMATION: Roland Brown, 58, PVT, ASEL-I, 890TT, > 14 R/G, 14MM > > > > no lvw > > > > ***Roland must log an additional 10 hours > > > > dual flight instruction in the insured aircraft to include > 10 take off > > and > > > > landings to a full stop. He must then log 5 hours solo > time prior to > > > > carrying passengers. The CFI giving the instruction must > have 1500TT, > > > 500RG > > > > and 50 hours in Velocity RG's. > > > > > > > > OPW: Named pilots only. > > > > > > > > > > > > REMARKS: Roland Brown has successfully attend and completed the > > Velocity > > > > in-flight training school for this aircraft. > > > > > > > > Jim Nelson e-mail: jnelson@falconinsurance.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 16:05:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:05:44 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030506075900.0239fbf0@pop.charter.net> At 12:41 PM 5/6/03 +0000, you wrote: >Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage >of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is >derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? Think of it in the extreme case. Would you be just as happy building your plane with the same laminate sequence and rubber cement? The resin does provide a small percentage of the overall strength - more in some dimensions (flex) and less to none in others (tension.) Whenever you load a structure you're getting forces in all dimensions. When you flex the spar, the top spar cap mostly goes into compression, the bottom mostly goes into tension - but there's still some bending. If you want to see the difference, lay up a single ply of fiberglass on waxed aluminum. Do one ply with a laminating resin, do the other with WEST. Or do the second ply with 5 minute epoxy. Wet out, squeegee equally, let cure, pop loose, don't cut yourself, and flex them. From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 16:34:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:34:38 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Message-ID: <200305061534.h46FYx7s031177@dax.awpi.com> You're right. It came apart easily. Thanks. > This post makes it clear what is causing you trouble.The 3/4" diameter part(s) > are simply bushings on the 5/8" axle that keep the wheel centered on the axle. > The axle is 5/8" all the way through and it is threaded into the fork on the > side opposite the set screw. Remove the set screw and the axle can then be > screwed out by screwing a short bolt into the tapped hole where the wheel pant > is attached on the side of the fork opposite the set screw, and turning the axle > using the head of the short bolt. Use an AN or grade 8 short bolt, because if > it has been a while since the axle has been removed it might turn pretty hard > and you don't want twist off the little bolt. > > Once the axle is removed, the wheel may or may not come out of the fork in one > piece. If the bosses on the inside of the fork keep you from removing the wheel > in one piece you will have to take the wheel haves apart while the wheel is > still in the fork as was described in several of the posts. > > Don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: douglas holub > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:40 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal > > > Thanks everybody. This wheel assembly is 16 years old, and maybe it doesn't > look like yours do now. There's only one long set screw. The axle is as long > as the fork is wide. I can see a 5/8" axle flush with the outside of both sides > of the fork, but the axle is 3/4" where it goes through the wheel bearings. > Both ends of the axle have a tapped hole in the center; that's where my wheel > pant attaches. There's no screwdriver slot with which to turn the axle. I > wonder if the 3/4" diameter part is just a bushing and the axle is 5/8" diameter > and just pressed in. > > Doug > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laurence Coen > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:19 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal > > > Doug, > > I am guessing that you are not the builder of your aircraft. The wheel > needs to be removed from the fork by extracting the axle. The wheel has through > bolts that when removed allow the wheel to be separated into two halves which > allows the tire to be removed. The rest is obvious. > > Larry Coen > SE RG Franklin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: douglas holub > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:30 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal > > > My FG nose gear tire is flat. Can somebody tell me how to remove the tire > and the tube? It looks like the fork has everything trapped. > > Doug Holub > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 17:43:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 10:43:06 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EB7E61A.2@tnstaafl.net> I don't know if AUA has special "Builder's" insurance. Are you sure she understood what you wanted. Funny but all the stories I've heard say that Avemco still offers the best builders insurance. Its once your flying that they turn from friend to Fiend. Scott Brian Michalk wrote: > Strange. > > I talked to Pam to get insurance. > > I'm getting a loan for avionics, and am thinking the bank is going to want > the airplane insured while it sits in my house, in my garage, getting built. > > I was quoted $1300/year for this. > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:16 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes >> >> >>Tell Falcon to take a long walk on a short pier. >> >>Can Ron get insurance from AUA? I just renewed this week and for $1M >>liability and non-flight $85K Hull for less than $900 total. I could >>have got in-flight hull/liability for $1700. >> >>Call Pam at AUA or email her: pam@auaonline.com >> >>Scott >> >>Ronnie Brown wrote: >> >>>Insurance woes! >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Ronnie Brown" > >>>To: "Jim Nelson" >>> >>>Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 8:33 AM >>>Subject: Re: Quote on the Velocity >>> >>> >>> > Thanks for trying. This is nearly double the previous quote >> >>in November >> >>> > ($550 same coverage) and much more training required. I >> >>already have 22 >> >>> > hours and 39 full stop landings in my Velocity. The requirement for >>> > additional training in my aircraft can't be accomplished until the 40 >>>flight >>> > test hours are flown off. >>> > >>> > Insurance is costing more, with more restrictions and >> >>exceptions, more >> >>> > training requirements. Won't be long, and Falcon will be out >> >>there with >> >>> > Avemco! >>> > >>> > When should I reapply (how many hours in type, how many full stop >>>landings, >>> > etc.) with a more reasonable yearly premium? THE REPLY WAS THERE >>>WILL NOT BE ANY REDUCTIONS IN PREMIUM! >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > Roland Brown >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Jim Nelson" >>> >>> > To: > >>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 2:41 PM >>> > Subject: Quote on the Velocity >>> > >>> > >>> > > Roland: >>> > > >>> > > Here is a quote for liability only for you. Please note >> >>the additional >> >>> > dual >>> > > requirements at the bottom. If you have any questions, >> >>please contact >> >>>me. >>> > > >>> > > FROM: JIM NELSON FAX 512-891-8483 PHONE: 1-866-647-4322 >>> > > DATE: 4/22/03 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > EMAIL QUOTE REQUEST >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > NAME INSURED: Roland Brown >>> > > ADDRESS: 20106 Norman Colony Road >>> > > CITY/STATE/ZIP CODE: Cornelius, NC 28031-7143 >>> > > OCCUPATION: Retired EAA Number: YES >>> > > >>> > > CURRENT INS. CO.: Just completed EXPIRATION DATE: >>> > > >>> > > AIRCRAFT: 2002 Velocity 173 RG, N713MR, 4 seats >>> > > >>> > > AIRCRAFT STATUS/ >>> > > LOCATION: Hangared at Lake Norman >>> > > >>> > > AIRCRAFT USE(S): Pleasure and Business Use, excluding any operation >>> > > for which a charge is made. >>> > > >>> > > HULL VALUE: $0 >>> > > HULL PREMIUM: $ >>> > > >>> > > DEDUCTIBLES: NOT-IN-MOTION: $0 IN-MOTION: $0 >>> > > >>> > > LIMIT OF LIABILITY: $500,000 Combined single limit bodily >> >>injury and >> >>> > > property damage limited to $100,000 bodily injury per passenger. >>> > > LIABILITY PREMIUM: $1000 >>> > > >>> > > MEDICAL PAYMENTS: $1,000 PER PASSENGER (CREW INCLUDED) >>> > > MEDICAL PREMIUM: $15 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > TOTAL ANNUAL PREMIUM: $1015 >>> > > >>> > > PILOT INFORMATION: Roland Brown, 58, PVT, ASEL-I, 890TT, >> >>14 R/G, 14MM >> >>> > > no lvw >>> > > ***Roland must log an additional 10 hours >>> > > dual flight instruction in the insured aircraft to include >> >>10 take off >> >>>and >>> > > landings to a full stop. He must then log 5 hours solo >> >>time prior to >> >>> > > carrying passengers. The CFI giving the instruction must >> >>have 1500TT, >> >>> > 500RG >>> > > and 50 hours in Velocity RG's. >>> > > >>> > > OPW: Named pilots only. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > REMARKS: Roland Brown has successfully attend and completed the >>>Velocity >>> > > in-flight training school for this aircraft. >>> > > >>> > > Jim Nelson e-mail: jnelson@falconinsurance.com >>> >>> > > >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 19:45:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:45:36 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: <3e.2f307366.2be95cd0@aol.com> --part1_3e.2f307366.2be95cd0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry --part1_3e.2f307366.2be95cd0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am using Avemco for builders ins= urance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they= will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me= when it comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to all,
Larry --part1_3e.2f307366.2be95cd0_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 20:00:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Tvedte) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:00:04 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F0418132F@exchange.comp-sol.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31401.B3D66668 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgY292ZXJhZ2UgYW1vdW50IGNvdmVyZWQgZm9yIHRoZSAkNDUwPw0KIA0KUGVy Y2VudGFnZSBwZXIgdGhvdXNhbmQgcmF0ZSBxdW90ZWQ/DQogDQpUaGFua3MsDQogDQpKb2huDQoN CgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBNaWxlaGl0YXpAYW9sLmNvbSBb bWFpbHRvOk1pbGVoaXRhekBhb2wuY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBUdWUgNS82LzIwMDMgMTo0NSBQTSAN CglUbzogcmVmbGVjdG9yQHR2YmYub3JnIA0KCUNjOiANCglTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUkVGTEVDVE9S Ok1vcmUgSW5zdXJhbmNlIFdvZXMNCgkNCgkNCglJIGFtIHVzaW5nIEF2ZW1jbyBmb3IgYnVpbGRl cnMgaW5zdXJhbmNlLiBJdCBydW5zIG1lIGFib3V0IDQ1MCBhIHllYXIuIFlvdXIgcmlnaHQsIGl0 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Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31407.4A50D150 Content-Type: text/plain It's all quite simple to understand. Insurance companies are in the min/max business; pay minimum number of claims and collect maximum amount of premiums. They'll insure us all day long as long as we don't file any claims. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31407.4A50D150 Content-Type: text/html
It's all quite simple to understand.  Insurance companies are in the min/max business; pay minimum number of claims and collect maximum amount of premiums.  They'll insure us all day long as long as we don't file any claims.
 
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to all,
Larry
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31407.4A50D150-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 20:17:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:17:54 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31404.318A0B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIGlzIG9idmlvc3VseSBhIGhpZ2hlciByaXNrIHdpdGggYSBjb21wbGV0ZWQgcGxhbmUuICBI b3dldmVyIC4uLiBoYXMgYW55b25lIGFjdHVhbGx5IGRvbmUgYW4gYWN0dWFyaWFsIHN0dWR5IG9u IHRoZSByaXNrIG9mIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCB2cyBjZXJ0aWZpZWQgYWlyY3JhZnQ/DQogDQpBcmUg aG9tZWJ1aWx0cyBhIGhpZ2hlciByaXNrIHdoZW4gaXQgY29tZXMgdG8gYWNjaWRlbnQgYW5kIGlu anVyeSBzdGF0cz8gIE9yIGRvIEluc3VyYW5jZSBDb21wYW5pZXMgc2ltcGx5IHN0YXkgYXdheSBm cm9tIGl0IGJlY2F1c2UgaXQgc291bmRzIHRvbyBzY2FyZXk/DQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLSANCglGcm9tOiBNaWxlaGl0YXpAYW9sLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOk1pbGVoaXRhekBh b2wuY29tXSANCglTZW50OiBUdWUgNS82LzIwMDMgMTI6NDUgUE0gDQoJVG86IHJlZmxlY3RvckB0 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(reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:26:55 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: <42.38312632.2be9667f@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/03 11:49:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Milehitaz@aol.com writes: << I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry >> That is because it's a small policy in the scope of things. They can self-insure those policies themselves without having to turn to the reinsurance companies (the real insurance people) to pick up the major portion of the million dollar plus policies. When you get into liability, there are regulations as to the assets the insurance company must have to cover claims. No insurance company that we deal with has those kind of assets, so they must turn to the "behind the seens" guys. These reinsurance guys (there are only about 5 in the world) are the ones that call all the shots. They took such a beating in the stocks and 9-11, they want it all back in a hurry. The reinsurance guys are one of the best examples of collusion in the world, and there is nothing any one except the government can do about it. Not that AVEMCO aren't a bunch of A-holes (I dealt with them too), but there is a much bigger picture to the insurance mess than just us. My business commercial package has increased 60% over the last two years along with a healthy (no pun intended) increases (up 35% in two years) medical insurance and workers comp (up100% since 1/03). In business you have TWO other partners, the government and the insurance companies. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 20:30:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Hugel) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:30:34 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3e.2f307366.2be95cd0@aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c31405$f7907f60$1a03a8c0@server01> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C313E4.7250E040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems like a recent change on their part. I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a response on price. Bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C313E4.7250E040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,
I=20 called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders = Insurance. =20 They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt = that since=20 they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair to = insure the=20 kit.  This seems like a recent change on their = part.
 
I was=20 quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the same = day (I'm=20 instrument rated).  Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because = they felt=20 that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not=20 bother.
 
Today,=20 I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a response on=20 price.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 Milehitaz@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:More=20 Insurance Woes

I am using = Avemco for=20 builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very = strange=20 that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, = but don't=20 want me when it comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to = all,
Larry=20
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C313E4.7250E040-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 20:36:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:36:26 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <000601c31405$f7907f60$1a03a8c0@server01> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C313E5.4170DCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. It was $550/yr. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Larry, I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems like a recent change on their part. I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a response on price. Bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C313E5.4170DCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
 
Funny,=20 I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco.  = It was=20 $550/yr.
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob = Hugel
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

Larry,
I=20 called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders = Insurance. =20 They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt = that=20 since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair = to=20 insure the kit.  This seems like a recent change on their=20 part.
 
I=20 was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the = same day=20 (I'm instrument rated).  Falcon suggested that I call Avemco = because they=20 felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they = will not=20 bother.
 
Today, I emailed Pam with all the = particulars and I'm=20 awaiting a response on price.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 Milehitaz@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:More=20 Insurance Woes

I am = using Avemco for=20 builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's = very=20 strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in = the biz,=20 but don't want me when it comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to=20 all,
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C313E5.4170DCE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 21:03:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506200319.67152.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Andy, I heard some solvents/products will cause the Lexan to craze or turn milky (windex w/ ammonia, alcohol...). I used kerosene (based on a tip from Rob Johnson) to clean the tape residue w/ no ill side effects. Also, you can snip a stir stick off square and use it as a scraper - the wood is soft enough not to scratch the window. Pat --- Andy Millin wrote: > After I installed my windows, I pulled off the duct > tape. There were small > spots where the adhesive decided to stay with the > window instead of come off > with the tape. Any suggestions on good stuff to > take the goop off with. > > Thanks, > > Andy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 21:56:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:56:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31411.F58359D0 Content-Type: text/plain All, The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change daily...and usually for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the limits of a lawyer's mind. I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all live with. The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we can even get it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Bob, Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. It was $550/yr. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Larry, I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems like a recent change on their part. I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a response on price. Bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31411.F58359D0 Content-Type: text/html
 All,
 
The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just make up the rules as they go along."  Honest, no kidding.  Insurance underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change daily...and usually for the worse.  As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." 
 
It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked about in the Newsletter really does make good sense.  Hull insurance is a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the limits of a lawyer's mind.   
 
I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all live with.  The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter).
 
If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed money.  I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and pilot checkouts.  Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we can even get it.  If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on.
 
Chuck
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

Bob,
 
Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco.  It was $550/yr.
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

Larry,
I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders Insurance.  They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit.  This seems like a recent change on their part.
 
I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated).  Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not bother.
 
Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a response on price.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to all,
Larry
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31411.F58359D0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 22:23:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:23:15 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3EB7E61A.2@tnstaafl.net> References: <3EB7E61A.2@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Avemco does offer good builders policies at about $300/year Jack N55XL From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 22:30:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:30:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C313EC.D444E3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I brought up this idea years ago, and still think it's viable. I have too many irons in the fire right now, but would consider taking this on after I finish my plane, and get some other personal business matters cleared up. The way I see it, it needs to get off to a healthy start, as you mentioned with "seed money". It might be doable without seed money, but you need a carrot to get the first people to sign up and get the bank account healthy. Let's say you opt in for the coop, and we won't do it until we have 20 takers. Charge $5,000 up front, and you can't make a claim for at least a year. After that, the premiums go down to something like $1000/year, or whatever. If we make too much money, dividends go to the first takers. Have someone do the actuarial tables for the bank that we need. Figure 100K max payout, and two, maybe three total payouts per year? Of course there may be some salvage value. It would keep everyone honest, and unlike a real company, the money couldn't be siphoned off to support some other company division that's losing money. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:56 PM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes All, The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change daily...and usually for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the limits of a lawyer's mind. I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all live with. The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we can even get it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Bob, Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. It was $550/yr. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Larry, I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems like a recent change on their part. I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a response on price. Bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C313EC.D444E3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 brought up this idea years ago, and still think it's = viable.
 
I have=20 too many irons in the fire right now, but would consider taking this on = after I=20 finish my plane, and get some other personal business matters cleared=20 up.
 
The=20 way I see it, it needs to get off to a healthy start, as you mentioned = with=20 "seed money".  It might be doable without seed money, but you need = a carrot=20 to get the first people to sign up and get the bank account=20 healthy.
 
Let's=20 say you opt in for the coop, and we won't do it until we have 20 = takers. =20 Charge $5,000 up front, and you can't make a claim for at least a = year. =20 After that, the premiums go down to something like $1000/year, or=20 whatever.  If we make too much money, dividends go to the first=20 takers.
 
Have=20 someone do the actuarial tables for the bank that we need.   = Figure=20 100K max payout, and two, maybe three total payouts per year?  Of = course=20 there may be some salvage value.
 
It=20 would keep everyone honest, and unlike a real company, the money = couldn't be=20 siphoned off to support some other company division that's losing=20 money.
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck=20 Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:56 PM
To:=20 'reflector@tvbf.org'
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

 All,
 
The=20 seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance=20 practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they = just=20 make up the rules as they go along."  = Honest, no=20 kidding.  Insurance underwriting and the weather have one thing = in=20 common; they change daily...and usually for the worse.  As = Hytec45=20 mentioned, the insurance companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now = we're the=20 "whippees." 
 
It's=20 so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked = about in=20 the Newsletter really does make good sense.  Hull insurance is a=20 different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is=20 quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the = limits of=20 a lawyer's mind.   
 
I'm=20 not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that = charged=20 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss = experience=20 (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an effective = 1-2% of=20 the hull value.....which is something we could all live with.  = The loss=20 experience on the Velocity since the Factory started their Checkout = and=20 Aircraft inspection program has improved markedly (at least according = to=20 anecdotal comments in the Newsletter).
 
If=20 someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about = setting up=20 a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed = money.  I=20 suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing=20 a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection = and=20 pilot checkouts.  Given the relatively low cost of repairing = Velocities=20 compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason = that=20 hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we can = even get=20 it.  If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing it = tomorrow,=20 but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea = for=20 someone else that has time on their hands, is organized, knows = Velocities=20 and is hands-on.
 
Chuck
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy=20 Millin
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

Bob,
 
Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" = with=20 Avemco.  It was $550/yr.
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob=20 Hugel
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance = Woes

Larry,
I called Avemco on Thursday of last = week to ask=20 about Builders Insurance.  They told me that they do not = insure=20 Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the = plane=20 when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit.  This = seems=20 like a recent change on their part.
 
I was quoted for a $60K replacement = cost kit,=20 $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated).  = Falcon=20 suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could = do a=20 better price, but as it turns out, they will not=20 bother.
 
Today, I emailed Pam with all the = particulars and=20 I'm awaiting a response on price.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf=20 Of Milehitaz@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 = 2:46=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

I am using Avemco for builders insurance. = It runs me=20 about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will = offer me=20 the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me = when it=20 comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to all,
Larry=20 =
= ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C313EC.D444E3C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 22:35:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:35:27 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004701c31417$69e5ff70$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C313DC.BD872770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck, I like this idea. You would have to consider a stop-loss, overarching policy for general protection, to cover the co-op in the = event of an excess of settlements. The key would be in "actuality," the low = cost of repairs carried out. Liability would be a separate issue. You are = just talking about hull, only, correct? =20 The actuary biz in the insurance industry is volatile and flexible. It = is constantly changing based on "actuals." That is the name of the game. = Any chance that investors might benefit from paid interest, as in a mutual = fund, still protected by a stop-loss policy? =20 =20 You definitely would need some professional, feet-glued-to-the-ground-of-reality, experienced counsel to pull it off. Any builders in the insurance biz who can point the way? I have one = contact who has been an actuary. =20 BTW, I bet a co-op has been discussed multiple times in the past! =20 Blessings to all. =20 Hoop -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:56 PM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes All, =20 The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance = practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance underwriting = and the weather have one thing in common; they change daily...and usually = for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance companies took a = whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." =20 =20 It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is = a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the = limits of a lawyer's mind. =20 =20 I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that = charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss = experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an effective = 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all live with. The = loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). =20 If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and = pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities = compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we can even get = it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea for = someone else that has time on their hands, is organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. =20 Chuck =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Andy Millin Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Bob, =20 Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. It = was $550/yr. =20 Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Bob Hugel Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes Larry, I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders = Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits because they felt = that since they do not insure the plane when it is complete it was not fair = to insure the kit. This seems like a recent change on their part. =20 I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon on the = same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. =20 Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a = response on price. Bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. = Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh = well. Best to all, Larry=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C313DC.BD872770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Chuck, I like=20 this idea.  You would have to consider a stop-loss, overarching = policy for=20 general protection, to cover the co-op in the event of an excess of=20 settlements.  The key would be in "actuality," the low cost of=20 repairs carried out.  Liability would be a separate = issue.  You=20 are just talking about hull, only, correct?
 
The actuary=20 biz in the insurance industry is volatile and flexible.  It is = constantly changing based on "actuals."  That is the name of the = game. Any=20 chance that investors might benefit from paid interest, as in a mutual = fund,=20 still protected by a stop-loss policy? 
 
You=20 definitely would need some professional, = feet-glued-to-the-ground-of-reality,=20 experienced counsel to pull it off.  Any builders in the = insurance biz=20 who can point the way?  I have one contact who has been an=20 actuary.
 
BTW, I bet a=20 co-op has been discussed multiple times in the past!
 
Blessings to=20 all.
 
Hoop
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Chuck Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:56 = PM
To:=20 'reflector@tvbf.org'
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

 All,
 
The=20 seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance=20 practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they = just=20 make up the rules as they go along."  = Honest, no=20 kidding.  Insurance underwriting and the weather have one thing = in=20 common; they change daily...and usually for the worse.  As = Hytec45=20 mentioned, the insurance companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now = we're the=20 "whippees." 
 
It's=20 so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked = about in=20 the Newsletter really does make good sense.  Hull insurance is a=20 different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is=20 quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the = limits of=20 a lawyer's mind.   
 
I'm=20 not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that = charged=20 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss = experience=20 (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an effective = 1-2% of=20 the hull value.....which is something we could all live with.  = The loss=20 experience on the Velocity since the Factory started their Checkout = and=20 Aircraft inspection program has improved markedly (at least according = to=20 anecdotal comments in the Newsletter).
 
If=20 someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about = setting up=20 a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed = money.  I=20 suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing=20 a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection = and=20 pilot checkouts.  Given the relatively low cost of repairing = Velocities=20 compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason = that=20 hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we can = even get=20 it.  If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing it = tomorrow,=20 but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea = for=20 someone else that has time on their hands, is organized, knows = Velocities=20 and is hands-on.
 
Chuck
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Andy=20 Millin
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

Bob,
 
Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" = with=20 Avemco.  It was $550/yr.
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob=20 Hugel
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance = Woes

Larry,
I called Avemco on Thursday of last = week to ask=20 about Builders Insurance.  They told me that they do not = insure=20 Velocity Kits because they felt that since they do not insure the = plane=20 when it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit.  This = seems=20 like a recent change on their part.
 
I was quoted for a $60K replacement = cost kit,=20 $600/yr by Falcon on the same day (I'm instrument rated).  = Falcon=20 suggested that I call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could = do a=20 better price, but as it turns out, they will not=20 bother.
 
Today, I emailed Pam with all the = particulars and=20 I'm awaiting a response on price.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf=20 Of Milehitaz@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 = 2:46=20 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

I am using Avemco for builders insurance. = It runs me=20 about 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will = offer me=20 the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me = when it=20 comes time to fly.  Oh well. Best to all,
Larry=20 =
= ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C313DC.BD872770-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 22:45:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:45:49 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning In-Reply-To: <20030506200319.67152.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004e01c31418$df53fd60$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> A fellow builder on the list has recommended denatured alcohol and your thumbnail, for the reasons noted. This sounds really safe! Forget a manicure though. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:03 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org; Andy Millin Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Window cleaning Hi Andy, I heard some solvents/products will cause the Lexan to craze or turn milky (windex w/ ammonia, alcohol...). I used kerosene (based on a tip from Rob Johnson) to clean the tape residue w/ no ill side effects. Also, you can snip a stir stick off square and use it as a scraper - the wood is soft enough not to scratch the window. Pat --- Andy Millin wrote: > After I installed my windows, I pulled off the duct > tape. There were small > spots where the adhesive decided to stay with the > window instead of come off > with the tape. Any suggestions on good stuff to > take the goop off with. > > Thanks, > > Andy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 23:07:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:07:09 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just called Avemco. They won't sell builders insurance for an Elite FG. If they don't have a plan to cover you once you are flying, then they won't write a builders policy. > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Jack Sheehan > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:23 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > Avemco does offer good builders policies at about $300/year > Jack > N55XL > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 23:44:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:44:19 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The resin provides the shear strength of the laminate - it is like the difference between trying to bend a board (strong resin) and a telephone book (weak resin) the difference in the telephone book is that there is no shear strength between the pages (fibers). But you only need just enough resin to make maximum contact with the fibers, any more, and the fibers will tend to float apart, causing more of the (much) weaker resin to be in shear, by cross section, as well as making the lay-up unnecessarily heavy. so the argument is correct, but to be able to stress a given laminate is proportional to the shear strength of the resin, but once the resin starts to fail, the laminate is done (de-lamination) so perhaps a stronger resin could provide the same stiffness with less fibers, but I would say that the only way to significantly change the stiffness is to go to a lower modulus of elasticity (low E) fiber like graphite, that has less stretch than the glass. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of lawrence epstein Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:42 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? Larry Epstein 173 FGE >I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet >than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 6 23:54:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 17:54:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F0418132F@exchange.comp-sol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C313F8.90E8AA10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0032_01C313F8.90E8AA10" ------=_NextPart_001_0032_01C313F8.90E8AA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not so strange really- they know that the builder's insurance is easy = money for them, so they will give that to you, and anyone else all day = long, but hey, if you want to fly that thing, it is another story all = together, they might just have some risk, and that means that they just = might have to give some of that money back, they sure don't want to do = that , so they tell you to take a walk......=20 =20 From: John Tvedte [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John = Tvedte Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes What is the coverage amount covered for the $450? Percentage per thousand rate quoted? Thanks, John -----Original Message-----=20 From: Milehitaz@aol.com [mailto:Milehitaz@aol.com]=20 Sent: Tue 5/6/2003 1:45 PM=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Cc:=20 Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a = year. Your right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build = Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time = to fly. Oh well. Best to all, Larry=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0032_01C313F8.90E8AA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Not so=20 strange really- they know that the builder's insurance is easy money for = them,=20 so they will give that to you, and anyone else all day long, but hey, if = you=20 want to fly that thing, it is another story all together, they might = just have=20 some risk, and that means that they just might have to give = some of=20 that money back, they sure don't want to do that , so they tell you to = take a=20 walk......
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From: John = Tvedte=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John = Tvedte
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:00 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

What is the coverage amount covered for the $450?
 
Percentage per thousand rate quoted?
 
Thanks,
 
John
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 Milehitaz@aol.com [mailto:Milehitaz@aol.com]
Sent: Tue = 5/6/2003=20 1:45 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Cc: =
Subject:=20 Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes

I am=20 using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about 450 a year. = Your=20 right, it's very strange that they will offer me the build Ins, and = the=20 cheapest in the biz, but don't want me when it comes time to = fly.  Oh=20 well. Best to all,
Larry=20
------=_NextPart_001_0032_01C313F8.90E8AA10-- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C313F8.90E8AA10 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IigWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHBQAGABIAMwAAAAIALAEB A5AGAGAEAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAeAAAAUkVGTEVDVE9SOk1vcmUgSW5zdXJhbmNlIFdvZXMAAAACAXEAAQAAACAA AAABwxQAVbiicmZf3JNKyqR+Ml10che7AABSKmMACAGPAAIBHQwBAAAAGgAAAFNNVFA6QUxFWDE1 N0BESVJFQ1dBWS5DT00AAAALAAEOAAAAAEAABg4ASlpYKhTDAQIBCg4BAAAAGAAAAAAAAAALJSf0 7r/cEbuAAOApXfRMwoAAAB4AQhABAAAAPwAAADw2QUM4OTI3QzVFRTE3OTRFOEE4RDg1OThCRjZE N0YwNDE4MTMyRkBleGNoYW5nZS5jb21wLXNvbC5jb20+AAALAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAADhQAAAAAAAAMAA4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAHgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAACdqAQAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA5LjAA HgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AC4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEA AAAAAAAACwANgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAAeAA6ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAACDhQAAAQAAABMAAAA1MDU0MjQ4MjItMDYwNTIwMDMAAAsAOoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwA8gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAD2ACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAAsAUoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAaFAAAAAAAAAwBTgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAAALJSf07r/cEbuAAOApXfRMAgH6 DwEAAAAQAAAACyUn9O6/3BG7gADgKV30TAIB+w8BAAAAnAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbC AABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAAAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XERvY3VtZW50cyBhbmQgU2V0 dGluZ3NcQWxleCBCYWxpY1xMb2NhbCBTZXR0aW5nc1xBcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBEYXRhXE1pY3Jvc29m dFxPdXRsb29rXG91dGxvb2sucHN0AAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADQAAAA8Tk1CQkxM SUFBTE1GQU9LSkJLUERNRU5GQ0lBQS5hbGV4MTU3QGRpcmVjd2F5LmNvbT4A6b8= ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C313F8.90E8AA10-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 01:46:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:46:23 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EB8575F.6020006@tnstaafl.net> Brian Michalk wrote: > Let's say you opt in for the coop, and we won't do it until we have 20 > takers. Charge $5,000 up front, and you can't make a claim for at least > a year. After that, the premiums go down to something like $1000/year, > or whatever. If we make too much money, dividends go to the first takers. This sounds a bit outragious to me?? $5,000 to start??? When AUA will insure my hull value 0f $85K for $1450 with other goodies thrown in like rental coverage while plane is repaired, airline fees to get home, etc, etc. Also if you only buy liability from AUA the rate is higher. For liability alone for me its $510 a year If I buy hull, non-flight or flight its $375 a year. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 01:54:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:54:02 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: Message-ID: <3EB8592A.6020507@tnstaafl.net> All of this sounds OK, sort of. But in the scientific world which we are trying to emulate its all anecdotal, which means it ain't worth the paper its printed on. Where's the specs? Where's the testing results. I know Rutan didn't recommend West but he states specifically that he only recommends products that he has tested, and as far as I know he never tested West for applicability. Or maybe he did, but I haven't been referred to any documents that support that. As far as I know Nat never did any testing of resins, he just followed Rutan's lead, not a bad lead to follow. Here is a brief West Systems Properties page http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/properties.htm I've seen one of these for EZPoxy but can't seem to find it. Anybody know of one online? Scott Alexander Balic wrote: > The resin provides the shear strength of the laminate - it is like the > difference between trying to bend a board (strong resin) and a telephone > book (weak resin) the difference in the telephone book is that there is no > shear strength between the pages (fibers). But you only need just enough > resin to make maximum contact with the fibers, any more, and the fibers will > tend to float apart, causing more of the (much) weaker resin to be in shear, > by cross section, as well as making the lay-up unnecessarily heavy. so the > argument is correct, but to be able to stress a given laminate is > proportional to the shear strength of the resin, but once the resin starts > to fail, the laminate is done (de-lamination) so perhaps a stronger resin > could provide the same stiffness with less fibers, but I would say that the > only way to significantly change the stiffness is to go to a lower modulus > of elasticity (low E) fiber like graphite, that has less stretch than the > glass. > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of lawrence epstein > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:42 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE > > > Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage > of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is > derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? > > Larry Epstein > 173 FGE > > >>I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >>stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet >>than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 01:56:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:56:21 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EB859B5.1010404@tnstaafl.net> A coop was suggested by Scott Swing last year. He requested everybody who was interested to let him know. I think only about 4 or 5 of us responded. I think he though that we needed a minimum of 30 to 40 individuals to make it work. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > All, > > The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance > practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just > make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance > underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change > daily...and usually for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance > companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." > > It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked > about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is > a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is > quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the > limits of a lawyer's mind. > > I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that > charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss > experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an > effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all > live with. The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory > started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved > markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). > > If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about > setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed > money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing > a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and > pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities > compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason > that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we > can even get it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing > it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a > good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is > organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. > > Chuck > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Andy Millin > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > Bob, > > Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. > It was $550/yr. > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > Larry, > I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders > Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits > because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when > it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems > like a recent change on their part. > > I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon > on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I > call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better > price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. > > Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a > response on price. > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about > 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will > offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but > don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, > Larry > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 02:43:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Hugel) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:43:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3EB859B5.1010404@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <000401c3143a$1ffd52a0$1a03a8c0@server01> Scott Swing can count me in.. Bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:56 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes A coop was suggested by Scott Swing last year. He requested everybody who was interested to let him know. I think only about 4 or 5 of us responded. I think he though that we needed a minimum of 30 to 40 individuals to make it work. Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > All, > > The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance > practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just > make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance > underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change > daily...and usually for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance > companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." > > It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked > about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is > a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is > quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the > limits of a lawyer's mind. > > I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that > charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss > experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an > effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all > live with. The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory > started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved > markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). > > If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about > setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed > money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing > a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and > pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities > compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason > that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we > can even get it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing > it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a > good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is > organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. > > Chuck > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Andy Millin > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > Bob, > > Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. > It was $550/yr. > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > Larry, > I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders > Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits > because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when > it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems > like a recent change on their part. > > I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon > on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I > call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better > price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. > > Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a > response on price. > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Milehitaz@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about > 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will > offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but > don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to all, > Larry > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 03:28:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:28:58 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:FG nose wheel tire removal Message-ID: <28.37bbf15b.2be9c96a@aol.com> --part1_28.37bbf15b.2be9c96a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please deflate the tire first. Most recent axles have slots for use of a large screw driver. Mack --part1_28.37bbf15b.2be9c96a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please deflate the tire first. Most recent axles have slots for use of a large screw driver.
Mack --part1_28.37bbf15b.2be9c96a_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 04:00:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 23:00:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: <000401c3143a$1ffd52a0$1a03a8c0@server01> Message-ID: <008601c31444$d322a2e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> If auto engines are not excluded I'm interested. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hugel" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > Scott Swing can count me in.. > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:56 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > A coop was suggested by Scott Swing last year. He requested everybody > who was interested to let him know. I think only about 4 or 5 of us > responded. > > I think he though that we needed a minimum of 30 to 40 individuals to > make it work. > > Scott > > Chuck Jensen wrote: > > All, > > > > The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance > > practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just > > make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance > > underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change > > daily...and usually for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance > > companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." > > > > It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked > > about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is > > a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is > > quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the > > limits of a lawyer's mind. > > > > I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that > > charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss > > experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an > > effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all > > live with. The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory > > started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved > > markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). > > > > If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about > > setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed > > money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing > > a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and > > pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities > > compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason > > that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we > > can even get it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing > > it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a > > good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is > > organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > > Behalf Of Andy Millin > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > > Bob, > > > > Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. > > It was $550/yr. > > > > Andy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > > Larry, > > I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders > > Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits > > because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when > > it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems > > like a recent change on their part. > > > > I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon > > on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I > > call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better > > price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. > > > > Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a > > response on price. > > Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of > Milehitaz@aol.com > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > > I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about > > 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will > > offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but > > don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to > all, > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 03:55:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bill) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:55:06 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: <3e.2f307366.2be95cd0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB8758A.000012.02536@Medsker1> --------------Boundary-00=_UFXHDL51VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I too used to have builder's insurance with Avemco till I figured out the= y did not INTEND to insure my plane when it was running so I decided to sto= p rewarding them... =0D =0D I contacted local agent about adding my airplane parts to my household policy as I'm building at home; $205 for $60,000 coverage.. Agent listed = it as a "Collection of Aeronotic Artifacts" (his words).. You pay so much pe= r thousand for insurance on your collection of what ever it might be; used lawn mowers, pocket knife collection or old computers...=0D =0D Might be an option for some..=0D =0D Bill Medsker =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_UFXHDL51VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I too used to have builder's insurance with Avemco till I figured ou= t they did not INTEND to insure my plane when it was running so I decided= to stop rewarding them...
 
I contacted local agent about adding my airplane parts to my househo= ld policy as I'm building at home; $205 for $60,000 coverage.. Agent= listed it as a "Collection of Aeronotic Artifacts" (his words).. You pay= so much per thousand for insurance on your collection of what ever it mi= ght be; used lawn mowers, pocket knife collection or old computers..= =2E
 
Might be an option for some..
 
Bill Medsker
 
 
 
 
 
--------------Boundary-00=_UFXHDL51VA4000000000-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 12:17:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:17:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3EB8758A.000012.02536@Medsker1> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C31468.B145ECD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This one is a little long. If you aren't reading the insurance thread, you should probably delete it now. Home insurance policy;I tried to do that. My agent was pretty honest about it. He said that we could do something like that and he could write the policy. Then he cautioned us that aircraft for some reason fit into a special category of their own. He said we would run a real risk that an insurance adjuster would disallow any claim because it was aircraft related. In the household insurance arena aircraft can and most likely are taboo. I didn't want to pay the premium and then have the risk that it would be for nothing. I know that Avemco will not insure my plane once it is built. But, the insurance issue has been hot on the reflector a couple times a year since I have been on it. Pretty easy guess that it was the same for years before I came along. The issues haven't changed. So far I have learned/observed a couple of things: 1) The aviation insurance industry has no memory. Don't count on them to give you a break because you are a safe pilot and a good customer. They won't. 2) Once they get you paying a yearly premium, count on it going up next year. It seems as though they take your loyalty for granted. Unfortunately it seems that you will need to shop every year for the best value. If you don't you WILL be overpaying. 3) They make shopping around nearly impossible. Once one agent quotes your tail number, no other agency will touch you. I wish I had that kind of advantage in my business. When I first started building, I was denied aircraft under construction insurance from Avemco after I was promised coverage before I purchased the kit. Words cannot describe how upset I was at the time. I was certain that I would never do business with these low life's. Then you learn that they are all low life's. One may just be treating you better at the moment and you start to believe you have found a company with integrity that you can trust. Its and illusion. They have no memory and they will stick it to you eventually. I'm insured with Avemco now because it was the best value I could find. Next year when it is time to renew, there will be no loyalty on my part, and I will again shop for the best deal. Sorry for the long wind. Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:55 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes I too used to have builder's insurance with Avemco till I figured out they did not INTEND to insure my plane when it was running so I decided to stop rewarding them... I contacted local agent about adding my airplane parts to my household policy as I'm building at home; $205 for $60,000 coverage.. Agent listed it as a "Collection of Aeronotic Artifacts" (his words).. You pay so much per thousand for insurance on your collection of what ever it might be; used lawn mowers, pocket knife collection or old computers... Might be an option for some.. Bill Medsker ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C31468.B145ECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This one is a little long.  = If you=20 aren't reading the insurance thread, you should probably delete it=20 now.
 
Home insurance policy;I tried to = do=20 that.  My agent was pretty honest about it.  He said that we = could do=20 something like that and he could write the policy.  Then he = cautioned us=20 that aircraft for some reason fit into a special category of their = own.  He=20 said we would run a real risk that an insurance adjuster would disallow = any=20 claim because it was aircraft related.  In the household insurance = arena=20 aircraft can and most likely are taboo.  I didn't want to pay the = premium=20 and then have the risk that it would be for nothing.
 
I know that Avemco will not insure = my plane=20 once it is built.  But, the insurance issue has been hot on the = reflector a=20 couple times a year since I have been on it.  Pretty easy guess = that it was=20 the same for years before I came along.  The issues haven't = changed. =20 So far I have learned/observed a couple of things:
 
1) The aviation insurance industry = has no=20 memory.  Don't count on them to give you a break because you are a = safe=20 pilot and a good customer.  They won't.
2) Once they get you paying a = yearly=20 premium, count on it going up next year.  It seems as though they = take your=20 loyalty for granted.  Unfortunately it seems that you will need to = shop=20 every year for the best value.  If you don't you WILL be=20 overpaying.
3) They make shopping around = nearly=20 impossible.  Once one agent quotes your tail number, no other = agency will=20 touch you.  I wish I had that kind of advantage in my=20 business.
 
When I first started building, I = was denied=20 aircraft under construction insurance from Avemco after I was promised = coverage=20 before I purchased the kit.  Words cannot describe how upset I was = at the=20 time.  I was certain that I would never do business with these low=20 life's.
 
Then you learn that they are all = low=20 life's.  One may just be treating you better at the moment and you = start to=20 believe you have found a company with integrity that you can = trust.  Its=20 and illusion.  They have no memory and they will stick it to you=20 eventually.
 
I'm insured with Avemco now = because it was=20 the best value I could find.  Next year when it is time to renew, = there=20 will be no loyalty on my part, and I will again shop for the best=20 deal.
 
Sorry for the long = wind.
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of = Bill
Sent:=20 Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:55 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance=20 Woes

I too used to have builder's insurance with Avemco till I = figured=20 out they did not INTEND to insure my plane when it was running = so I=20 decided to stop rewarding them...
 
I contacted local agent about adding my airplane parts to = my=20 household policy as I'm building at home; $205 for $60,000=20 coverage.. Agent listed it as a "Collection of Aeronotic = Artifacts" (his=20 words).. You pay so much per thousand for insurance on your = collection=20 of what ever it might be; used lawn mowers, pocket knife = collection=20 or old computers...
 
Might be an option for some..
 
Bill Medsker
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C31468.B145ECD0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 14:43:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:43:05 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: <3e.2f307366.2be95cd0@aol.com> <3EB8758A.000012.02536@Medsker1> Message-ID: <3EB90D69.2060406@tnstaafl.net> Bill, that's a fantastic idea and a much less expensive end run around the insurance companies like Avemco and Falcon. Is Scott Baker listening????? This should be passed on in the Newsletter. Scott Bill wrote: > I too used to have builder's insurance with Avemco till I figured out > they did not INTEND to insure my plane when it was running so I decided > to stop rewarding them... > > I contacted local agent about adding my airplane parts to my household > policy as I'm building at home; $205 for $60,000 coverage.. Agent listed > it as a "Collection of Aeronotic Artifacts" (his words).. You pay so > much per thousand for insurance on your collection of what ever it might > be; used lawn mowers, pocket knife collection or old computers... > > Might be an option for some.. > > Bill Medsker > > > > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 14:47:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:47:41 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: <000401c3143a$1ffd52a0$1a03a8c0@server01> <008601c31444$d322a2e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3EB90E7D.1080204@tnstaafl.net> The last news letter indicated Scott Swing had given up for lack of interest. I think the only way we could restart his engines would be to provide him a list of interested "Flying" owners. It would have to be 30+ people. Scott Wayne Owens wrote: > If auto engines are not excluded I'm interested. > Wayne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Hugel" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:43 PM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > > > >>Scott Swing can count me in.. >>Bob >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:56 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes >> >> >>A coop was suggested by Scott Swing last year. He requested everybody >>who was interested to let him know. I think only about 4 or 5 of us >>responded. >> >>I think he though that we needed a minimum of 30 to 40 individuals to >>make it work. >> >>Scott >> >>Chuck Jensen wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>>The seeming endless inconsistencies and disparities of insurance >>>practices are not really incongruent when you consider that "they just >>>make up the rules as they go along." Honest, no kidding. Insurance >>>underwriting and the weather have one thing in common; they change >>>daily...and usually for the worse. As Hytec45 mentioned, the insurance >>>companies took a whippin' on 9/11, and now we're the "whippees." >>> >>>It's so darn complicated, but a Coop for hull insurance that was talked >>>about in the Newsletter really does make good sense. Hull insurance is >>>a different animal than liability insurance because hull damage is >>>quantifiable and estimable, unlike liability which only stops at the >>>limits of a lawyer's mind. >>> >>>I'm not going to volunteer to set it up, but a non-profit Coop that >>>charged 3-5% of the hull value and rebated the excess over the paid-loss >>>experience (and overhead), could end up providing hull insurance for an >>>effective 1-2% of the hull value.....which is something we could all >>>live with. The loss experience on the Velocity since the Factory >>>started their Checkout and Aircraft inspection program has improved >>>markedly (at least according to anecdotal comments in the Newsletter). >>> >>>If someone is brave enough (ne: stupid enough) to want to think about >>>setting up a Coop, I'd be willing to seriously consider putting in seed >>>money. I suspect that Velocity would be most helpful in establishing >>>a "relationship" to the factory for continued aircraft inspection and >>>pilot checkouts. Given the relatively low cost of repairing Velocities >>>compared to Kansas Cans after a fender-bender, there is little reason >>>that hull insurance should be 5% of the value of the plane....when we >>>can even get it. If I lived in FL close to the Factory, I'd try doing >>>it tomorrow, but I don't, so I won't, but that doesn't mean it's not a >>>good idea for someone else that has time on their hands, is >>>organized, knows Velocities and is hands-on. >>> >>>Chuck >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>> Behalf Of Andy Millin >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:36 PM >>> To: reflector@tvbf.org >>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes >>> >>> Bob, >>> >>> Funny, I JUST renewed my "Aircraft Under Construction" with Avemco. >>> It was $550/yr. >>> >>> Andy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org >>> [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hugel >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:31 PM >>> To: reflector@tvbf.org >>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes >>> >>> Larry, >>> I called Avemco on Thursday of last week to ask about Builders >>> Insurance. They told me that they do not insure Velocity Kits >>> because they felt that since they do not insure the plane when >>> it is complete it was not fair to insure the kit. This seems >>> like a recent change on their part. >>> >>> I was quoted for a $60K replacement cost kit, $600/yr by Falcon >>> on the same day (I'm instrument rated). Falcon suggested that I >>> call Avemco because they felt that Avemco could do a better >>> price, but as it turns out, they will not bother. >>> >>> Today, I emailed Pam with all the particulars and I'm awaiting a >>> response on price. >>> Bob >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org >>> [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of >> >>Milehitaz@aol.com >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:46 PM >>> To: reflector@tvbf.org >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes >>> >>> I am using Avemco for builders insurance. It runs me about >>> 450 a year. Your right, it's very strange that they will >>> offer me the build Ins, and the cheapest in the biz, but >>> don't want me when it comes time to fly. Oh well. Best to >> >>all, >> >>> Larry >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 15:50:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:50:41 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Message-ID: As Brian noted, the insurance Coop is not a new idea, and it was vetted by Scott again last year in the news letter. Ideas are good but implementation is everything. I'm going to be at the Factory next week for a XL RG checkout and intend to spend a few minutes with Scott to discuss the issue a bit further. I would suspect that Velocity would be behind the idea even if they didn't make a penny off it, since any program that made insurance readily available would be a great selling tool for Velocity kits. From what I read, Long EZ, Lancair and the rest have the same problem. But, as we know, problems are just an opportunity waiting for a solution. This Coop thing isn't quite as intimidating as might appear on the front end. Here are a few more detailed thoughts. 1. Actuarials: Probably unnecessary. We are not trying to predict life spans and esoteric issues of that sort. I would think the Factory and/or their Inspectors, have a pretty good handle on the rate of incidents/accidents. We can be safe in one assumption; if the commercial insurance companies will insure the hull for 5%, then the actual losses are substantially less. 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out high; in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most current commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting a low commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you next year when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target would be 1%-2%. 3. Variable Premiums: We hate to make it complicated but some premium variability would have to put in effect. The reality is the loss potential is different for a 300hp retract with an MT prop is different than a 200hp fixed gear, fixed prop. 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's sake, but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity approved CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical about more "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all get a little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning once every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and your life. 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our workmanship is great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors know every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a factory approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. 6. Repair Costs: It is common wisdom that the cost of repairing a Velocity is much less than trying to repair Kansas stuff. We should advantage ourselves of this. Rules (of the fair type) would have to be written that precludes a $15,000 claim that the owner fixes for $500 and a few hours of his time. Abuse of this ilk is part of the reason our aviation and liability insurance is already outrageous. Even in a serious accident, there are still many salvageable items including instrumentation and possibly engine or engine components. Rarely is a loss ever "total." 7. Deductibles: High. The Coop insurance program should be designed to be catastrophic insurance rather than something like a homeowners policy where you file a claim if your storm door blows off. This program is designed to get you back in the air, not cushion you from every little incident. 8. Payout Stop-Loss: Its difficult to imagine a scenario under which valid claims could be denied because "we've paid too many claims this year." A claim is a claim and at the start, the Coop would be at higher risk until a "bank" is established (this is what seed money is about). Certainly, a requirement that the pilot be rechecked and the plane reinspected at the Factory after any claim would help minimize spurious claims. (In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a lap-dog for the Factory, I just think a Coop would have to avail themselves of every available risk mitigation resource) 9. Liability Insurance: Not! This is where actuarials, attorneys, courts and real headaches come into play. Too many dollars and too many unknowns to get involved. The liability insurance people currently have, may not be a bargain, but it seems more reasonable than the hull insurance. 10. Dividends: Yes. Though the premiums, and risk to the Coop, are high on the front end, if the loss rate is as low as we believe it should be, both can come down. With ingenuity, rules can be written that would provide a dividend to Coop members if, over the first 2-3 years of the program, a surplus of funds was built up. The dividend would be in the form of reduced premiums (if one still owned a plane) or cash payment if a Velocity was no longer owned. 11. Overhead: Yes. Even a simple program requires postage, paper, man-power, phone, fax, email, et al. The target would be 10% of premiums. That may be low but might be achievable. The person(s) running it should look on it as a labor of love, not a profit center. 12. Minimum Number of Insureds: A minimum numbers of insured of 30-40 being necessary to get the program off the ground is probably not doable. There are advantages in a larger initial number of insured in that the risk is spread wider, however, it does not change the risk itself. The only absolute advantage of an initial large number of insured is fixed costs/overhead can be spread across more people. I suspect 5 or 10 insured would be sufficient to set up the program, trouble shoot it and gain momentum (of the favorable type, hopefully). To have 40 initially insured may be a disadvantage by making the birthing pains even more difficult as the bumps are smoothed out. Be assured, "if we build it, they will come." 13. Lawsuits: No. Well, we actually can't stop them but anyone that refused a negotiated settlement, would forfeit any future dividend and could not gain insurance from the Coop for the next 10 years. We may be able to require binding arbitration which would eliminate most of those problems. In the end, the Coop would need to be fair and equitable but not reward claimants with windfall profits. 14. Short Memories: An unavoidable consequence of a successful Coop is the naysayers and grumblers who will always think things are unfair and this-and-that are too high, and on and on. When adequate insurance is available at a fair price, there will be those who can remember 22.5 years ago when they insured a plane for $30,000 and it only cost him a buck ninety-five, two ten and that this Coop thing is a rip-off. Sad fact but short memories go with the territory. Many will soon forget the pain, agony and disgust we are currently experiencing and will find new things to complain about. Has anyone ever belonged to a Homeowner's Association? It all falls under the category of "thankless task", nonetheless, it seems such a program will have to be undertaken if we are ever to resolve this problem. What we do have going for us is, as a whole, plane owners and pilots are a more intelligent and decent group of people than the average. Perhaps we could appeal to their uncommon civility to rise above the common and make it work. It's worth thinking about. Charles Jensen Diversified Technologies 2680 Westcott Blvd Knoxville, TN 37931 Phn: 865-539-9000 x25 Cell: 865-406-9001 Fax: 865-539-9001 cjensen@dts9000.com From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 17:06:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Phil Hooper) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 09:06:45 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00cf01c314b2$a96182a0$6401a8c0@HOOPGATEWAY> Excellent and realistic. Thank you Charles. Now, who's going to lead this? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:51 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes As Brian noted, the insurance Coop is not a new idea, and it was vetted by Scott again last year in the news letter. Ideas are good but implementation is everything. I'm going to be at the Factory next week for a XL RG checkout and intend to spend a few minutes with Scott to discuss the issue a bit further. I would suspect that Velocity would be behind the idea even if they didn't make a penny off it, since any program that made insurance readily available would be a great selling tool for Velocity kits. From what I read, Long EZ, Lancair and the rest have the same problem. But, as we know, problems are just an opportunity waiting for a solution. This Coop thing isn't quite as intimidating as might appear on the front end. Here are a few more detailed thoughts. 1. Actuarials: Probably unnecessary. We are not trying to predict life spans and esoteric issues of that sort. I would think the Factory and/or their Inspectors, have a pretty good handle on the rate of incidents/accidents. We can be safe in one assumption; if the commercial insurance companies will insure the hull for 5%, then the actual losses are substantially less. 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out high; in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most current commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting a low commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you next year when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target would be 1%-2%. 3. Variable Premiums: We hate to make it complicated but some premium variability would have to put in effect. The reality is the loss potential is different for a 300hp retract with an MT prop is different than a 200hp fixed gear, fixed prop. 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's sake, but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity approved CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical about more "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all get a little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning once every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and your life. 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our workmanship is great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors know every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a factory approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. 6. Repair Costs: It is common wisdom that the cost of repairing a Velocity is much less than trying to repair Kansas stuff. We should advantage ourselves of this. Rules (of the fair type) would have to be written that precludes a $15,000 claim that the owner fixes for $500 and a few hours of his time. Abuse of this ilk is part of the reason our aviation and liability insurance is already outrageous. Even in a serious accident, there are still many salvageable items including instrumentation and possibly engine or engine components. Rarely is a loss ever "total." 7. Deductibles: High. The Coop insurance program should be designed to be catastrophic insurance rather than something like a homeowners policy where you file a claim if your storm door blows off. This program is designed to get you back in the air, not cushion you from every little incident. 8. Payout Stop-Loss: Its difficult to imagine a scenario under which valid claims could be denied because "we've paid too many claims this year." A claim is a claim and at the start, the Coop would be at higher risk until a "bank" is established (this is what seed money is about). Certainly, a requirement that the pilot be rechecked and the plane reinspected at the Factory after any claim would help minimize spurious claims. (In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a lap-dog for the Factory, I just think a Coop would have to avail themselves of every available risk mitigation resource) 9. Liability Insurance: Not! This is where actuarials, attorneys, courts and real headaches come into play. Too many dollars and too many unknowns to get involved. The liability insurance people currently have, may not be a bargain, but it seems more reasonable than the hull insurance. 10. Dividends: Yes. Though the premiums, and risk to the Coop, are high on the front end, if the loss rate is as low as we believe it should be, both can come down. With ingenuity, rules can be written that would provide a dividend to Coop members if, over the first 2-3 years of the program, a surplus of funds was built up. The dividend would be in the form of reduced premiums (if one still owned a plane) or cash payment if a Velocity was no longer owned. 11. Overhead: Yes. Even a simple program requires postage, paper, man-power, phone, fax, email, et al. The target would be 10% of premiums. That may be low but might be achievable. The person(s) running it should look on it as a labor of love, not a profit center. 12. Minimum Number of Insureds: A minimum numbers of insured of 30-40 being necessary to get the program off the ground is probably not doable. There are advantages in a larger initial number of insured in that the risk is spread wider, however, it does not change the risk itself. The only absolute advantage of an initial large number of insured is fixed costs/overhead can be spread across more people. I suspect 5 or 10 insured would be sufficient to set up the program, trouble shoot it and gain momentum (of the favorable type, hopefully). To have 40 initially insured may be a disadvantage by making the birthing pains even more difficult as the bumps are smoothed out. Be assured, "if we build it, they will come." 13. Lawsuits: No. Well, we actually can't stop them but anyone that refused a negotiated settlement, would forfeit any future dividend and could not gain insurance from the Coop for the next 10 years. We may be able to require binding arbitration which would eliminate most of those problems. In the end, the Coop would need to be fair and equitable but not reward claimants with windfall profits. 14. Short Memories: An unavoidable consequence of a successful Coop is the naysayers and grumblers who will always think things are unfair and this-and-that are too high, and on and on. When adequate insurance is available at a fair price, there will be those who can remember 22.5 years ago when they insured a plane for $30,000 and it only cost him a buck ninety-five, two ten and that this Coop thing is a rip-off. Sad fact but short memories go with the territory. Many will soon forget the pain, agony and disgust we are currently experiencing and will find new things to complain about. Has anyone ever belonged to a Homeowner's Association? It all falls under the category of "thankless task", nonetheless, it seems such a program will have to be undertaken if we are ever to resolve this problem. What we do have going for us is, as a whole, plane owners and pilots are a more intelligent and decent group of people than the average. Perhaps we could appeal to their uncommon civility to rise above the common and make it work. It's worth thinking about. Charles Jensen Diversified Technologies 2680 Westcott Blvd Knoxville, TN 37931 Phn: 865-539-9000 x25 Cell: 865-406-9001 Fax: 865-539-9001 cjensen@dts9000.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 20:45:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 13:45:25 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EB96255.90808@tnstaafl.net> Chuck, Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. My $0.02 > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out high; > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most current > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting a low > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you next year > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target would be > 1%-2%. No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure at that cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought yourself another Velocity. Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% for non-flight. Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going to get enough business to make it viable. > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's sake, > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity approved > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical about more > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all get a > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning once > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and your life. I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big negative. I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the initial policy but after that its a waste. > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our workmanship is > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors know > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a factory > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is a waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more complex aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for insurance. Neither should ours. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 21:54:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:54:02 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for the comments. Well, if Falcon will provide hull in-flight for 1.6%, then our problems are solved! I would consider 1.6% a quite reasonable rate. Certainly better than the 5% of hull value quoted recently by Aircraft and Marine. Regarding the Factory checkout, certainly the initial inspection and checkout at the Factory is warranted. For the BFR, it's only an idea that a CFI with Velocity experience do the check out. It doesn't have to be at the Factory but a checkout by a CFI off the street that has little or no Velocity time is going to be far less valuable than a CFI that routinely flies in a Velocity. Regarding the Annuals, after an initial inspection at the Factory, it was not intended that they necessarily be done at the factory. Particularly since some builders feel that the right to do your own inspection is one of the advantages of being the builder. In sum, I may well have been under a misconception about the insurance problem, both cost and accessibility. Certainly, if Velocity owners can get hull for 1.6%, the only thing they should ask is "where do I sign." Thanks for the info. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 3:45 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Chuck, Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. My $0.02 > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out high; > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most current > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting a low > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you next year > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target would be > 1%-2%. No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure at that cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought yourself another Velocity. Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% for non-flight. Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going to get enough business to make it viable. > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's sake, > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity approved > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical about more > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all get a > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning once > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and your life. I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big negative. I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the initial policy but after that its a waste. > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our workmanship is > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors know > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a factory > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is a waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more complex aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for insurance. Neither should ours. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 21:35:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:35:29 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes References: <3e.2f307366.2be95cd0@aol.com> <3EB8758A.000012.02536@Medsker1> <3EB90D69.2060406@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002701c314d8$3300fca0$5ccdd344@mshome.net> Yes, I'm here. I think it's a good idea as well. I'd like to suggest that Bob write a short article for the Views about the subject. Folks like reading about subjects in the "first person". I'm sure it would be well received. Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:43 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes > Bill, that's a fantastic idea and a much less expensive end run around > the insurance companies like Avemco and Falcon. > > Is Scott Baker listening????? This should be passed on in the Newsletter. > > Scott > > > Bill wrote: > > I too used to have builder's insurance with Avemco till I figured out > > they did not INTEND to insure my plane when it was running so I decided > > to stop rewarding them... > > > > I contacted local agent about adding my airplane parts to my household > > policy as I'm building at home; $205 for $60,000 coverage.. Agent listed > > it as a "Collection of Aeronotic Artifacts" (his words).. You pay so > > much per thousand for insurance on your collection of what ever it might > > be; used lawn mowers, pocket knife collection or old computers... > > > > Might be an option for some.. > > > > Bill Medsker > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 22:53:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 15:53:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EB9806C.3090301@tnstaafl.net> > checkout at the Factory is warranted. For the BFR, it's only an idea that a > CFI with Velocity experience do the check out. It doesn't have to be at the > Factory but a checkout by a CFI off the street that has little or no > Velocity time is going to be far less valuable than a CFI that routinely > flies in a Velocity. I think this really depends on the instructor. I just did my BFR a few weeks ago. I told the flight instructor I wanted a work out. He had flown with me before and knew how a canard should fly but not more than 30 minutes stick time in mine. I was beat by the time we were done. We did slow flight(climbing descending, turns), power on stalls(canard), approach stalls(canard), 4 approaches under the hood with holding and full entry, emergency descent, electrical failure, emergency gear extension, two power off landings from the pattern. We read through almost the entire POH. I felt like it was a fairly good BFR and probably as good as a factory CFI would give if not better. It was 2.5 flight hours and 2 hours on the ground. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 00:54:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jay Yu) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:54:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent Message-ID: FYI. (I can't believe this! Mine was sitting since last August.) -----Original Message----- From: JPI Tech Support [mailto:jpitech@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:30 AM To: Jay Yu Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent This is a follow-up from our phone conversation of earlier this morning. We have reviewed you request and still think that replacing the Fuel Pressure sensor is the best resolution. The Part number of the Fuel Pressure sensor is 3060-17 and sells for $100.00 plus shipping. The main issue is in the sensor where you have a wiper are that after sitting for a pro-longed period will create an indentation in the pickup in the sensor and would only read at lower temperature (or pressure), then when the engine gets warmer, the wiper arm in the sensor would get stuck in this depression and would not read higher. Another thing is to be certain not to hard mount the sensor. It must be mounted on a flexible tube about six (6) inches in length (AEROQUIP 303 line) to protect the sensor from engine vibration which can damage the sensor's wiper arm and sending unit. Lastly, to check the instrument you simply disconnect the harness wire and the instrument head should read a high reading caused by an open circuit, then connect the wires and the reading on the instrument will read lower due to the short. We hope this helps. Regards, JPI Product Support ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Yu" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > Hi, > > I have a SlimLine fuel pressure instrument. Recently I saw 0 pressure right > after engine runup (before take off). It seems that when the engine is cold, > the reading is ok. Also when I removed the cowls, the reading was ok too. > This seems to suggest that when the engine compartment is warm/hot. I have a > reading problem. Does this make sense? > > This evening I measured the resistence between the two wires on the > connector on the instrument side. I noticed that when there was no fuel > pressure, the reading was 7.5 Ohms. When I turned on electric boost pump, > the reading was 29.8 Ohms (I can normally get about 5 - 6 psi when the > electric boost pump is on). I also plugged the fuel pressure connector to > oil pressure instrument. I noticed that the reading was 0 when there was no > fuel pressure and the reading was 15 psi when I turned on electric boost > pump. > > Based on these observations, can you tell if my fuel pressure instrument is > bad or the fuel pressure sender is bad? If it's the fuel pressure sender, > could it be the temperature in engine compartment causing this problem? Also > can you give me some technical specification on the fuel pressure sender > such as the relationship between resistence and psi? On your web site I saw > the correlation between oil pressure and resistence such as 0 Ohm for 0 psi, > 89 Ohms for 50 psi and 630 psi for open circuit. > > Thanks, > > Jinquan Yu > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 01:54:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:54:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent References: Message-ID: <001a01c314fc$5d401220$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> That's not too good. If it had been parked for 5-10 years, MAYBE!! I'd say JPI needs to provide higher quality sensors. On the other hand, let me put in a good word for NAVAID. I bought my Navaid autopilot three years ago (too soon), but in any event, I just started flying my Velocity last month. I have 29 hours flown and got around to trouble shooting the fact that the Navaid would not lock onto GPS course, but would track a heading. I called Navaid and he said he would ship me a new GPS Coupler to fix the problem. No hassle!!! NOW THAT IS CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Yu" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > FYI. > > (I can't believe this! Mine was sitting since last August.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: JPI Tech Support [mailto:jpitech@pacbell.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:30 AM > To: Jay Yu > Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > > > This is a follow-up from our phone conversation of earlier this morning. We > have reviewed you request and still think that replacing the Fuel Pressure > sensor is the best resolution. The Part number of the Fuel Pressure sensor > is 3060-17 and sells for $100.00 plus shipping. > > The main issue is in the sensor where you have a wiper are that after > sitting for a pro-longed period will create an indentation in the pickup in > the sensor and would only read at lower temperature (or pressure), then when > the engine gets warmer, the wiper arm in the sensor would get stuck in this > depression and would not read higher. Another thing is to be certain not to > hard mount the sensor. It must be mounted on a flexible tube about six (6) > inches in length (AEROQUIP 303 line) to protect the sensor from engine > vibration which can damage the sensor's wiper arm and sending unit. > > Lastly, to check the instrument you simply disconnect the harness wire and > the instrument head should read a high reading caused by an open circuit, > then connect the wires and the reading on the instrument will read lower due > to the short. > > We hope this helps. > > Regards, > > JPI Product Support > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay Yu" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:10 PM > Subject: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a SlimLine fuel pressure instrument. Recently I saw 0 pressure > right > > after engine runup (before take off). It seems that when the engine is > cold, > > the reading is ok. Also when I removed the cowls, the reading was ok too. > > This seems to suggest that when the engine compartment is warm/hot. I have > a > > reading problem. Does this make sense? > > > > This evening I measured the resistence between the two wires on the > > connector on the instrument side. I noticed that when there was no fuel > > pressure, the reading was 7.5 Ohms. When I turned on electric boost pump, > > the reading was 29.8 Ohms (I can normally get about 5 - 6 psi when the > > electric boost pump is on). I also plugged the fuel pressure connector to > > oil pressure instrument. I noticed that the reading was 0 when there was > no > > fuel pressure and the reading was 15 psi when I turned on electric boost > > pump. > > > > Based on these observations, can you tell if my fuel pressure instrument > is > > bad or the fuel pressure sender is bad? If it's the fuel pressure sender, > > could it be the temperature in engine compartment causing this problem? > Also > > can you give me some technical specification on the fuel pressure sender > > such as the relationship between resistence and psi? On your web site I > saw > > the correlation between oil pressure and resistence such as 0 Ohm for 0 > psi, > > 89 Ohms for 50 psi and 630 psi for open circuit. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jinquan Yu > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 02:24:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:24:29 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507182427.0352c9f0@pop.charter.net> Here's a spec sheet for one mix of Proset http://www.prosetepoxy.com/125-226phys.htm You may note that there's a significant change in some of the numbers for even a mild post cure. Burt uses nothing but Proset at scaled. Nat uses MGS http://www.mgs-online.com/ there's supposed to be an English section but I can't find it. EZ Poxy is now made by Epoxical http://www.epoxi.com/main/home.asp they don't have a spec sheet on their web page. Actually they don't talk about EZ Poxy much, they sell a lot more of their CPD line of laminating resin. I've used a bunch (several 55 gal drums) and it's good stuff. But I still like Proset better. The adhesive - the gelled stuff from the gun - is absolutely wonderful for closing out blind ribs in strakes and wings. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. There's a data sheet from PTM&W running around about Aeropoxy that has numbers an order of magnitude higher than these, it says it was done with 10 ply laminates. I don't know what the standard is, but I know Aeropoxy isn't 10 times stiffer and stronger than anything else. At 06:54 PM 5/6/03 -0600, you wrote: >All of this sounds OK, sort of. > >But in the scientific world which we are trying to emulate its all >anecdotal, which means it ain't worth the paper its printed on. > >Where's the specs? Where's the testing results. > >I know Rutan didn't recommend West but he states specifically that he only >recommends products that he has tested, and as far as I know he never >tested West for applicability. Or maybe he did, but I haven't been >referred to any documents that support that. > >As far as I know Nat never did any testing of resins, he just followed >Rutan's lead, not a bad lead to follow. > >Here is a brief West Systems Properties page > >http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/properties.htm > >I've seen one of these for EZPoxy but can't seem to find it. > >Anybody know of one online? > >Scott > > >Alexander Balic wrote: >>The resin provides the shear strength of the laminate - it is like the >>difference between trying to bend a board (strong resin) and a telephone >>book (weak resin) the difference in the telephone book is that there is no >>shear strength between the pages (fibers). But you only need just enough >>resin to make maximum contact with the fibers, any more, and the fibers will >>tend to float apart, causing more of the (much) weaker resin to be in shear, >>by cross section, as well as making the lay-up unnecessarily heavy. so the >>argument is correct, but to be able to stress a given laminate is >>proportional to the shear strength of the resin, but once the resin starts >>to fail, the laminate is done (de-lamination) so perhaps a stronger resin >>could provide the same stiffness with less fibers, but I would say that the >>only way to significantly change the stiffness is to go to a lower modulus >>of elasticity (low E) fiber like graphite, that has less stretch than the >>glass. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of lawrence epstein >>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:42 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE >> >>Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage >>of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is >>derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? >>Larry Epstein >>173 FGE >> >>>I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >>>stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet >>>than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 03:12:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Tvedte) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:12:22 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Message-ID: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181335@exchange.comp-sol.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31507.429B0620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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RTA2JU5PTi1GTElHSFQtSUNBTExFREZBTENPTkZPUkJVSUxERVJTSU5TVVJBTkNFQU5EVEhFWUFS RVFVT1RJTkcxJVBFUlRIT1VTQU4AAAAAAgF/AAEAAAA/AAAAPDZBQzg5MjdDNUVFMTc5NEU4QThE ODU5OEJGNkQ3RjA0MTgxMzM1QGV4Y2hhbmdlLmNvbXAtc29sLmNvbT4AAGzr ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31507.429B0620-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 03:41:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Robin Ream) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:41:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181335@exchange.comp-sol.com> Message-ID: <000901c3150b$46c401a0$9f7cce18@cj209446d> Do you realize that the biggest part of the general aviation fleet is over 20 years old, and that means the overpriced cans have been paid for at least twice? Once to the bank, another time to the insurance companies over the 20 year period, and for a twenty year old certified, probably nearly a third time in inflated and overpriced maintenance under the dear FAA ! ---- I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to what makes sense. That's why the majority of pilots out there are flying with no insurance whatsoever. Maybe they've just said to hell with it, and maybe their attorney's have recommended other strategies, I don't know. You start asking the guys who have older airplanes that are paid for though, and you'll soon realize more don't bother to carry insurance than do. If you're financed, you pretty much screwed because the bank requires a policy, but if you've self financed and paid for the airplane as you built it you've got a lot more options to consider. Check with a good attorney, you might be surprised. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Tvedte" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:12 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull would run 850 as an example. > > I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? > > Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. > > BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of PIC time, or any other pilot related questions..... > > Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out how much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - or 4.5% > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > > > Chuck, > > Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. > > My $0.02 > > > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out high; > > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most current > > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting a low > > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you next year > > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target would be > > 1%-2%. > > No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull > which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure at that > cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought yourself > another Velocity. > > Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% for > non-flight. > > Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going to get > enough business to make it viable. > > > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's sake, > > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity approved > > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical about more > > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all get a > > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning once > > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and your life. > > I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big negative. > I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the > initial policy but after that its a waste. > > > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our workmanship is > > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors know > > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a factory > > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. > > Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is a > waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more complex > aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for > insurance. Neither should ours. > > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 04:43:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:43:53 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181335@exchange.comp-sol.com> Message-ID: <3EB9D279.4080906@tnstaafl.net> You have to call AUA for a non-flight 0.6% rate, I never said you could get that rate from Falcon. I have an instrument rating, 1000 hours PIC, 700 hrs retract, 150 in Velocity, so if your experience is different your rate will be also. Also, I don't know if you can use the non-flight policy as builders insurance. Interesting idea though. A problem could be that in order to get non-flight hull insurance you also need to get liability which will add apx. $400 to the bill. I think the plane has to be at an airport in a hanger. If your asking Falcon for a builders insurance plan I can see why they wouldn't ask for PIC time. ect. Your not flying it.. BTW, Non-Flight means your hull insurance ends the moment you taxi onto the runway and begins the moment you taxi off the runway. My insurance on my Bonanza was about 1% for in-flight hull with Falcon. Liability was half what I pay for my Velocity. That was a couple years ago so maybe things have changed. As per your friend, we don't know his history or flying credentials. A year ago I could get 85K hull from Avemco for $3,600 or from AUA for $1,400. Same coverage, same plane, same pilot very different prices. I told some folks that, and they said they were staying with Avemco because they were loyal customers! Scott John Tvedte wrote: > Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull would run 850 as an example. > > I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? > > Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. > > BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of PIC time, or any other pilot related questions..... > > Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out how much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - or 4.5% > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > > > Chuck, > > Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. > > My $0.02 > > > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out high; > > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most current > > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting a low > > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you next year > > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target would be > > 1%-2%. > > No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull > which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure at that > cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought yourself > another Velocity. > > Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% for > non-flight. > > Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going to get > enough business to make it viable. > > > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's sake, > > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity approved > > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical about more > > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all get a > > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning once > > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and your life. > > I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big negative. > I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the > initial policy but after that its a waste. > > > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our workmanship is > > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors know > > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a factory > > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. > > Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is a > waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more complex > aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for > insurance. Neither should ours. > > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 04:56:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 21:56:28 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181335@exchange.comp-sol.com> <3EB9D279.4080906@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3EB9D56C.2010103@tnstaafl.net> Correction, that $3,600 rate from Avemco was for 65K hull value, and $1,400 rate from AUA was for 85K... Seemed like a no brainer to me.. Scott Derrick wrote: > You have to call AUA for a non-flight 0.6% rate, I never said you could > get that rate from Falcon. I have an instrument rating, 1000 hours PIC, > 700 hrs retract, 150 in Velocity, so if your experience is different > your rate will be also. > > Also, I don't know if you can use the non-flight policy as builders > insurance. Interesting idea though. A problem could be that in order > to get non-flight hull insurance you also need to get liability which > will add apx. $400 to the bill. I think the plane has to be at an > airport in a hanger. > > If your asking Falcon for a builders insurance plan I can see why they > wouldn't ask for PIC time. ect. Your not flying it.. > > BTW, Non-Flight means your hull insurance ends the moment you taxi onto > the runway and begins the moment you taxi off the runway. > > My insurance on my Bonanza was about 1% for in-flight hull with Falcon. > Liability was half what I pay for my Velocity. That was a couple years > ago so maybe things have changed. > > As per your friend, we don't know his history or flying credentials. A > year ago I could get 85K hull from Avemco for $3,600 or from AUA for > $1,400. Same coverage, same plane, same pilot very different prices. I > told some folks that, and they said they were staying with Avemco > because they were loyal customers! > > Scott > > John Tvedte wrote: > >> Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for >> builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull >> would run 850 as an example. >> >> I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? >> >> Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. >> >> BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of PIC >> time, or any other pilot related questions..... >> >> Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out how >> much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - >> or 4.5% >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Scott Derrick >> [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM To: >> reflector@tvbf.org Cc: Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes >> >> >> >> Chuck, >> >> Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. >> >> My $0.02 >> >> > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start >> out high; >> > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most >> current >> > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are >> getting a low >> > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see >> you next year >> > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target >> would be >> > 1%-2%. >> >> No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull >> which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure >> at that >> cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought yourself >> another Velocity. >> >> Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% >> for >> non-flight. >> >> Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going >> to get >> enough business to make it viable. >> >> > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for >> insurance's sake, >> > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a >> Velocity approved >> > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical >> about more >> > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all >> get a >> > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. >> Relearning once >> > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and >> your life. >> >> I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big >> negative. >> I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the >> initial policy but after that its a waste. >> >> > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our >> workmanship is >> > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and >> Inspectors know >> > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have >> a factory >> > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. >> >> Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is a >> waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more >> complex >> aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for >> insurance. Neither should ours. >> >> >> Scott >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To change your email address, visit >> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 05:12:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 23:12:59 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181335@exchange.comp-sol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C314EE.33974730 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0034_01C314EE.33974730" ------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C314EE.33974730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance WoesI talked to Falcon today. They quoted = me 1.4%. I told them I know of some others that were getting 1%. The tripping point is $90,000 insured value. Above that limit, you go = into a different class, and your premiums are higher. Oh, I said. Well, let's insure it for $90K then. Big difference, $900 and $1400. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Tvedte [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John = Tvedte Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:12 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for = builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull = would run 850 as an example. I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of PIC = time, or any other pilot related questions..... Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out how = much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - or = 4.5% -----Original Message-----=20 From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net]=20 Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Cc:=20 Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Chuck, Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. My $0.02 > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out = high; > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most = current > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting = a low > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you = next year > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target = would be > 1%-2%. No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure at = that cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought = yourself another Velocity. Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% = for non-flight. Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going to = get enough business to make it viable. > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's = sake, > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity = approved > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical = about more > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all = get a > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning = once > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and = your life. I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big = negative. I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the initial policy but after that its a waste. > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our = workmanship is > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors = know > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a = factory > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is = a waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more = complex aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for insurance. Neither should ours. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_001_0034_01C314EE.33974730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes
I=20 talked to Falcon today.  They quoted me 1.4%.  I told them I = know of=20 some others that were getting 1%.
 
The=20 tripping point is $90,000 insured value.  Above that limit, you go = into a=20 different class, and your premiums are higher.
 
Oh, I=20 said.  Well, let's insure it for $90K then.
 
Big=20 difference, $900 and $1400.
 

 Brian Michalk  <http://www.michalk.com>
Life is what you make = of it ...=20 never wish you had done something.
Aviator, experimental aircraft = builder,=20 motorcyclist, SCUBA diver
musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and = mostly=20 single
 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Tvedte=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John=20 Tvedte
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:12 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance=20 Woes

Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon = for=20 builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand  - 85K = hull would=20 run 850 as an example.
 
I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"?
 
Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%.
 
BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours = of PIC=20 time, or any other pilot related questions.....
 
Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out = how=20 much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - = or=20 4.5%
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = Scott Derrick=20 [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net]
Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Cc:
Subject: = Re:=20 REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes

Chuck,

Nice dissertation on many of he ins = and outs=20 of aircraft insurance.

My $0.02

> = 2.   =20 Premiums:  There's little choice that the premiums start out=20 high;
> in the 4%-5% range.  While high, this is = competitive with=20 most current
> commercial rates, if you can get them.  = For those=20 that are getting a low
> commercial rate presently, our hats = off to=20 you; and we'll see you next year
> when you come to the Coop = hat in=20 hand.  The final premium target would be
> = 1%-2%.

No this=20 is not competitive.  Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for = hull
which I=20 found unacceptable.  It would pay anybody to self insure at=20 that
  cost.  Put the money in a CD and in 10 years = you've=20 bought yourself
another Velocity.

Falcon would charge me = 1.7% for=20 a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% for
non-flight.

Unless = you can=20 get close to competitive I don't think your going to get
enough = business=20 to make it viable.

> 4.    Pilot Flight=20 Checks:  Absolutely.  Not only for insurance's = sake,
> but=20 our own.  Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity=20 approved
> CFI.  When BFRs were first implement, I was a = little=20 skeptical about more
> "big brother."  The reality is, = its a very=20 good program.  We all get a
> little complacent and form = less=20 than desirable habits.  Relearning once
> every two years = is=20 small price to pay to save on insurance and your life.

I = don't see=20 any real advantage and would consider this a big negative.
I can = see a=20 factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the
initial = policy=20 but after that its a waste.

> 5.    Plane=20 Inspections:  Absolutely.  You and I know our workmanship=20 is
> great but can we trust that other guy.  The Factory = and=20 Inspectors know
> every trick, tip and trap associated with = the=20 Velocity.  To have a factory
> approved inspection will = save=20 insurance claims and lives.

Are you talking a first time = inspection=20 or recurring?  Recurring is a
waste as I said above. There = are=20 thousands and thousands of more complex
aircraft than ours flying = that=20 don't require a "Factory" annual for
insurance.  Neither = should=20 = ours.


Scott

___________________________________________= ____
To=20 change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose

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Still when I engaged the autopilot it tracked 15 degrees off the pointer. I called the closest Century dealer/shop and the autopilot dude was on vacation. Just my luck... So I finally buttoned everything back up and went flying today do experiment with my new CDI. Climbing through 8500 ft and getting pushed around by the turbulence I thought what the heck the pointer is 15 degrees off maybe it will at least keep the wings level so I can play with the GPS, so I engaged the autopilot. There it went tracking right on the heading bug!! I flew to a local field about 60 miles away(local in NM terms) with the autopilot on in pretty bumpy air, a Banana and a 210 were whining about moderate/severe but I thought it was closer to continuous light with an occasional moderate bump. Love how a canard fly's in turbulence... Landed shut down but left the autopilot on, it slowly slipped off the heading bug to 15 degrees off. Fired up flew home with the autopilot right on the money, the winds had picked up pretty good by then and it was getting to be quite a ride and a good workout for the autopilot. I looked in the manual and it states in very small print that adjusting the response and control of the autopilot must be done with full vacuum so the gyros are powered up. So, maybe just pilot error? I can't honestly remember ever trying to get the autopilot to track the heading bug on the ground with the engine off before. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 05:20:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 22:20:28 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EB9DB0C.3000902@tnstaafl.net> So Brian, What kind of coverage is that? Builders, Non-Flight Hull, Full Hull, includes liability? Scott Brian Michalk wrote: > I talked to Falcon today. They quoted me 1.4%. I told them I know of > some others that were getting 1%. > > The tripping point is $90,000 insured value. Above that limit, you go > into a different class, and your premiums are higher. > > Oh, I said. Well, let's insure it for $90K then. > > Big difference, $900 and $1400. > > > Brian Michalk > > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Tvedte [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John > Tvedte > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:12 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for > builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull > would run 850 as an example. > > I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? > > Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. > > BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of > PIC time, or any other pilot related questions..... > > Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out > how much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - > $4500 - or 4.5% > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > Chuck, > > Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. > > My $0.02 > > > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums > start out high; > > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with > most current > > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are > getting a low > > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see > you next year > > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium > target would be > > 1%-2%. > > No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull > which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure > at that > cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought > yourself > another Velocity. > > Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or > 0.6% for > non-flight. > > Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going > to get > enough business to make it viable. > > > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for > insurance's sake, > > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a > Velocity approved > > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little > skeptical about more > > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We > all get a > > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. > Relearning once > > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance > and your life. > > I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big > negative. > I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the > initial policy but after that its a waste. > > > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our > workmanship is > > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and > Inspectors know > > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To > have a factory > > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. > > Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring > is a > waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more > complex > aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for > insurance. Neither should ours. > > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 06:49:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 01:49:12 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cost of aircraft under construction insurance from Avemco In-Reply-To: <6AC8927C5EE1794E8A8D8598BF6D7F04181335@exchange.comp-sol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C31504.0642CF00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C31504.0645DC40" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C31504.0645DC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance WoesThe $550 was for 55K... Andy -----Original Message----- From: John Tvedte [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John = Tvedte Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 10:12 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for = builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull = would run 850 as an example. I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of PIC = time, or any other pilot related questions..... Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out how = much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - or = 4.5% -----Original Message-----=20 From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net]=20 Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Cc:=20 Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes Chuck, Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of aircraft insurance. My $0.02 > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums start out = high; > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with most = current > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are getting = a low > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see you = next year > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium target = would be > 1%-2%. No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for hull which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure at = that cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought = yourself another Velocity. Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% = for non-flight. Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going to = get enough business to make it viable. > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for insurance's = sake, > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity = approved > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little skeptical = about more > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We all = get a > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. Relearning = once > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance and = your life. I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big = negative. I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the initial policy but after that its a waste. > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our = workmanship is > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and Inspectors = know > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To have a = factory > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring is = a waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more = complex aircraft than ours flying that don't require a "Factory" annual for insurance. Neither should ours. Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C31504.0645DC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes
The=20 $550 was for 55K...
 
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: John Tvedte=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John=20 Tvedte
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 10:12 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance=20 Woes

Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon = for=20 builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand  - 85K = hull would=20 run 850 as an example.
 
I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"?
 
Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%.
 
BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours = of PIC=20 time, or any other pilot related questions.....
 
Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out = how=20 much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - $4500 - = or=20 4.5%
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = Scott Derrick=20 [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net]
Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Cc:
Subject: = Re:=20 REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes

Chuck,

Nice dissertation on many of he ins = and outs=20 of aircraft insurance.

My $0.02

> = 2.   =20 Premiums:  There's little choice that the premiums start out=20 high;
> in the 4%-5% range.  While high, this is = competitive with=20 most current
> commercial rates, if you can get them.  = For those=20 that are getting a low
> commercial rate presently, our hats = off to=20 you; and we'll see you next year
> when you come to the Coop = hat in=20 hand.  The final premium target would be
> = 1%-2%.

No this=20 is not competitive.  Avemco wanted to charge me 5% for = hull
which I=20 found unacceptable.  It would pay anybody to self insure at=20 that
  cost.  Put the money in a CD and in 10 years = you've=20 bought yourself
another Velocity.

Falcon would charge me = 1.7% for=20 a 85K hull value in-flight or 0.6% for
non-flight.

Unless = you can=20 get close to competitive I don't think your going to get
enough = business=20 to make it viable.

> 4.    Pilot Flight=20 Checks:  Absolutely.  Not only for insurance's = sake,
> but=20 our own.  Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a Velocity=20 approved
> CFI.  When BFRs were first implement, I was a = little=20 skeptical about more
> "big brother."  The reality is, = its a very=20 good program.  We all get a
> little complacent and form = less=20 than desirable habits.  Relearning once
> every two years = is=20 small price to pay to save on insurance and your life.

I = don't see=20 any real advantage and would consider this a big negative.
I can = see a=20 factory approved checkout of the plane and pilot for the
initial = policy=20 but after that its a waste.

> 5.    Plane=20 Inspections:  Absolutely.  You and I know our workmanship=20 is
> great but can we trust that other guy.  The Factory = and=20 Inspectors know
> every trick, tip and trap associated with = the=20 Velocity.  To have a factory
> approved inspection will = save=20 insurance claims and lives.

Are you talking a first time = inspection=20 or recurring?  Recurring is a
waste as I said above. There = are=20 thousands and thousands of more complex
aircraft than ours flying = that=20 don't require a "Factory" annual for
insurance.  Neither = should=20 = ours.


Scott

___________________________________________= ____
To=20 change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose

= ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C31504.0645DC40-- ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C31504.0642CF00 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IgwFAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHBQAIAAEAMQAAAAQAHQEB A5AGAOQDAAAeAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAdAAAAUkVGTEVDVE9SOlJlOiBJbnN1cmFuY2UgV29lcwAAAAACAXEAAQAAACAA AAABwxTRtAYlYf8mvRZEyZFF1O6s7e/jAAy05IsACDd0cAIBHQwBAAAAGgAAAFNNVFA6QU1JTExJ TkBORVQtTElOSy5ORVQAAAALAAEOAAAAAEAABg4A7teFJRXDAQIBCg4BAAAAGAAAAAAAAADppcn0 k6W1S7ve7G7/B8TEwoAAAB4AQhABAAAAPwAAADw2QUM4OTI3QzVFRTE3OTRFOEE4RDg1OThCRjZE N0YwNDE4MTMzNUBleGNoYW5nZS5jb21wLXNvbC5jb20+AAALAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAADhQAAAAAAAAMAEIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAB9bgEAHgASgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOS4wAAsAFoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAIKFAAABAAAA HgAXgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAg4UAAAEAAAATAAAANjMzMDU0ODA1LTA4MDUyMDAzAAAL AEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMARYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCF AAAAAAAAAwBGgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAEeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAAMArIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwC9gAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABoUAAAAAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAADppcn0k6W1S7ve7G7/B8TEAgH6DwEAAAAQ AAAA6aXJ9JOltUu73uxu/wfExAIB+w8BAAAAmAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABQU1RQ UlguRExMAAAAAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEQ6XERvY3VtZW50cyBhbmQgU2V0dGluZ3Nc QW5kcmV3XExvY2FsIFNldHRpbmdzXEFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIERhdGFcTWljcm9zb2Z0XE91dGxvb2tc b3V0bG9vay5wc3QAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00/TcAAAIBfwABAAAANAAAADxMRkVMTExOT0FGTUxER1BE RkhHQkNFTkdDREFBLmFtaWxsaW5AbmV0LWxpbmsubmV0PgChxw== ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C31504.0642CF00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 14:04:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 08:04:11 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3EB9DB0C.3000902@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Oops, I assumed everyone knew I was trying to get builders insurance. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:20 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > > So Brian, > > What kind of coverage is that? Builders, Non-Flight Hull, Full Hull, > includes liability? > > Scott > > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > I talked to Falcon today. They quoted me 1.4%. I told them I know of > > some others that were getting 1%. > > > > The tripping point is $90,000 insured value. Above that limit, you go > > into a different class, and your premiums are higher. > > > > Oh, I said. Well, let's insure it for $90K then. > > > > Big difference, $900 and $1400. > > > > > > Brian Michalk > > > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Tvedte [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John > > Tvedte > > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:12 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > > > Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for > > builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull > > would run 850 as an example. > > > > I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? > > > > Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. > > > > BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of > > PIC time, or any other pilot related questions..... > > > > Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out > > how much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - > > $4500 - or 4.5% > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > > Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > > > Chuck, > > > > Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of > aircraft insurance. > > > > My $0.02 > > > > > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums > > start out high; > > > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with > > most current > > > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are > > getting a low > > > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see > > you next year > > > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium > > target would be > > > 1%-2%. > > > > No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me > 5% for hull > > which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure > > at that > > cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought > > yourself > > another Velocity. > > > > Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or > > 0.6% for > > non-flight. > > > > Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going > > to get > > enough business to make it viable. > > > > > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for > > insurance's sake, > > > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a > > Velocity approved > > > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little > > skeptical about more > > > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We > > all get a > > > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. > > Relearning once > > > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance > > and your life. > > > > I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big > > negative. > > I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and > pilot for the > > initial policy but after that its a waste. > > > > > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our > > workmanship is > > > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and > > Inspectors know > > > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To > > have a factory > > > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. > > > > Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring > > is a > > waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more > > complex > > aircraft than ours flying that don't require a > "Factory" annual for > > insurance. Neither should ours. > > > > > > Scott > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 14:29:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:29:13 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes References: Message-ID: <3EBA5BA9.4030500@tnstaafl.net> Interesting that your paying more for insurance to build an airplane than I am to fly one! Scott Brian Michalk wrote: > Oops, I assumed everyone knew I was trying to get builders insurance. > > Brian Michalk > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of Scott Derrick >>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:20 PM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes >> >> >>So Brian, >> >>What kind of coverage is that? Builders, Non-Flight Hull, Full Hull, >>includes liability? >> >>Scott >> >> >>Brian Michalk wrote: >> >>>I talked to Falcon today. They quoted me 1.4%. I told them I know of >>>some others that were getting 1%. >>> >>>The tripping point is $90,000 insured value. Above that limit, you go >>>into a different class, and your premiums are higher. >>> >>>Oh, I said. Well, let's insure it for $90K then. >>> >>>Big difference, $900 and $1400. >>> >>> >>> Brian Michalk > >>>Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. >>>Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver >>>musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: John Tvedte [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John >>> Tvedte >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 9:12 PM >>> To: reflector@tvbf.org >>> Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes >>> >>> Just wondering how to get the 0.6% non-flight - I called Falcon for >>> builders insurance and they are quoting 1% per thousand - 85K hull >>> would run 850 as an example. >>> >>> I think Andy mentioned $550/year - what "value"? >>> >>> Bob mentioned 60K for 600 - which is 1%. >>> >>> BTW- I was not asked if I had an instrument rating, total hours of >>> PIC time, or any other pilot related questions..... >>> >>> Although second hand, a friend mentioned that he was checking out >>> how much a 100K Piper Commanche would cost him yearly to insure - >>> $4500 - or 4.5% >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] >>> Sent: Wed 5/7/2003 2:45 PM >>> To: reflector@tvbf.org >>> Cc: >>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes >>> >>> Chuck, >>> >>> Nice dissertation on many of he ins and outs of >> >>aircraft insurance. >> >>> My $0.02 >>> >>> > 2. Premiums: There's little choice that the premiums >>> start out high; >>> > in the 4%-5% range. While high, this is competitive with >>> most current >>> > commercial rates, if you can get them. For those that are >>> getting a low >>> > commercial rate presently, our hats off to you; and we'll see >>> you next year >>> > when you come to the Coop hat in hand. The final premium >>> target would be >>> > 1%-2%. >>> >>> No this is not competitive. Avemco wanted to charge me >> >>5% for hull >> >>> which I found unacceptable. It would pay anybody to self insure >>> at that >>> cost. Put the money in a CD and in 10 years you've bought >>> yourself >>> another Velocity. >>> >>> Falcon would charge me 1.7% for a 85K hull value in-flight or >>> 0.6% for >>> non-flight. >>> >>> Unless you can get close to competitive I don't think your going >>> to get >>> enough business to make it viable. >>> >>> > 4. Pilot Flight Checks: Absolutely. Not only for >>> insurance's sake, >>> > but our own. Perhaps we'd require the BFR be done with a >>> Velocity approved >>> > CFI. When BFRs were first implement, I was a little >>> skeptical about more >>> > "big brother." The reality is, its a very good program. We >>> all get a >>> > little complacent and form less than desirable habits. >>> Relearning once >>> > every two years is small price to pay to save on insurance >>> and your life. >>> >>> I don't see any real advantage and would consider this a big >>> negative. >>> I can see a factory approved checkout of the plane and >> >>pilot for the >> >>> initial policy but after that its a waste. >>> >>> > 5. Plane Inspections: Absolutely. You and I know our >>> workmanship is >>> > great but can we trust that other guy. The Factory and >>> Inspectors know >>> > every trick, tip and trap associated with the Velocity. To >>> have a factory >>> > approved inspection will save insurance claims and lives. >>> >>> Are you talking a first time inspection or recurring? Recurring >>> is a >>> waste as I said above. There are thousands and thousands of more >>> complex >>> aircraft than ours flying that don't require a >> >>"Factory" annual for >> >>> insurance. Neither should ours. >>> >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To change your email address, visit >>> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>> >>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 16:16:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:16:43 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: <3EBA5BA9.4030500@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: When were you quoted by Falcon for your .6% for non-flying coverage? > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 8:29 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: Insurance Woes > > > Interesting that your paying more for insurance to build an airplane > than I am to fly one! > > Scott > > Brian Michalk wrote: > > Oops, I assumed everyone knew I was trying to get builders insurance. > > > > Brian Michalk > > Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. > > Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver > > musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > > > > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 8 18:28:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:28:57 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test In-Reply-To: <000001c3136f$9ed2f970$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3154C.A3083DF0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3154C.A3083DF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3154C.A3083DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. Al Gietzen POWER AND TORQUE > > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting was > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up to > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 redrive > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no > point in pushing things further. > > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10 > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 - > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates about > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a > couple of hours of running since overhaul. The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000. Paul Lamar ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C3154C.A3083DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

I’ve completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. =  Overall; I’m very pleased.  Great performance from a normally aspirated engine = where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp = Lyc.  It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop = speed.  The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from = a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP.  More info = will eventually be available on my website.

 

Al Gietzen

 

POWER AND = TORQUE

>

> Wide open throttle = power and torque curves were run after adjusting

> the mixture = correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting was

> approximately for = maximum power.  Data was initially gathered up to

> about 6000 RPM, but = looking at the data showed that the torque curve

> was still flat, and = hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to

> 7000 RPM. Still no = break in the hp curve.  Given that the 2.17 redrive

> ratio limits engine = RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no

> point in pushing = things further.

>

> The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10

> ft-lbs from 210 = ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -

> nearly constant from = 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not

> extraordinary, and = could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the

> stock 9.0 rotors that = are in the engine.  Mazda's data indicates about

> a 4% increase in = power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may also

> improve some as the = engine wears in - this is an engine with only a

> couple of hours of = running since overhaul.

 

The 20B is going to make = one hell of an aircraft engine.

I can't wait to see one of = these engines in an air race.

The Lycoming weenies are = going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP = per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000.

 

Paul = Lamar

 

 

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mVLlSpYtXb6EGVPmTJo1bd7EmVPnTp49ff4EGlToUKJFjR5FmlTpUqZNnT6FGlXqVKpVrV7FmlXr Vq5dvX4FG1bsWLJlzZ5Fm1btWrZt3b6FG1fuXLp17d7Fm1fvXr59/f4FHFjwYMKFDR9GnFjxYsaN HT+GHFnyZMqVLV/GnHlyQAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C3154C.A3083DF0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 06:15:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:15:05 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <3EB8592A.6020507@tnstaafl.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030506214923.02d60ec0@pop.charter.net> Here's a spec sheet for one mix of Proset http://www.prosetepoxy.com/125-226phys.htm You may note that there's a significant change in some of the numbers for even a mild post cure. Burt uses nothing but Proset at scaled. Nat uses MGS http://www.mgs-online.com/ there's supposed to be an English section but I can't find it. EZ Poxy is now made by Epoxical http://www.epoxi.com/main/home.asp they don't have a spec sheet on their web page. Actually they don't talk about EZ Poxy much, they sell a lot more of their CPD line of laminating resin. I've used a bunch (several 55 gal drums) and it's good stuff. But I still like Proset better. The adhesive - the gelled stuff from the gun - is absolutely wonderful for closing out blind ribs in strakes and wings. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. There's a data sheet from PTM&W running around about Aeropoxy that has numbers an order of magnitude higher than these, it says it was done with 10 ply laminates. I don't know what the standard is, but I know Aeropoxy isn't 10 times stiffer and stronger than anything else. At 06:54 PM 5/6/03 -0600, you wrote: >All of this sounds OK, sort of. > >But in the scientific world which we are trying to emulate its all >anecdotal, which means it ain't worth the paper its printed on. > >Where's the specs? Where's the testing results. > >I know Rutan didn't recommend West but he states specifically that he only >recommends products that he has tested, and as far as I know he never >tested West for applicability. Or maybe he did, but I haven't been >referred to any documents that support that. > >As far as I know Nat never did any testing of resins, he just followed >Rutan's lead, not a bad lead to follow. > >Here is a brief West Systems Properties page > >http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/properties.htm > >I've seen one of these for EZPoxy but can't seem to find it. > >Anybody know of one online? > >Scott > > >Alexander Balic wrote: >>The resin provides the shear strength of the laminate - it is like the >>difference between trying to bend a board (strong resin) and a telephone >>book (weak resin) the difference in the telephone book is that there is no >>shear strength between the pages (fibers). But you only need just enough >>resin to make maximum contact with the fibers, any more, and the fibers will >>tend to float apart, causing more of the (much) weaker resin to be in shear, >>by cross section, as well as making the lay-up unnecessarily heavy. so the >>argument is correct, but to be able to stress a given laminate is >>proportional to the shear strength of the resin, but once the resin starts >>to fail, the laminate is done (de-lamination) so perhaps a stronger resin >>could provide the same stiffness with less fibers, but I would say that the >>only way to significantly change the stiffness is to go to a lower modulus >>of elasticity (low E) fiber like graphite, that has less stretch than the >>glass. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >>Behalf Of lawrence epstein >>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:42 AM >>To: reflector@tvbf.org >>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE >> >>Is this accurate? I was under the impression that a very small percentage >>of the ultimate (load bearing) strength is from the resin. "strength" is >>derived from the fibers . the resin merely keeps the fibers lined up? >>Larry Epstein >>173 FGE >> >>>I'm saying that for a laminate of the same strength or of the same >>>stiffness you'd use fewer plies (and thus have less weight) with ProSet >>>than with WEST. (Note that they're both made by Gougeon) >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 7 15:11:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:11:15 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:More Insurance Woes In-Reply-To: References: <3EB8758A.000012.02536@Medsker1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507070851.02df4a70@pop.charter.net> At 07:17 AM 5/7/03 -0400, you wrote: >3) They make shopping around nearly impossible. Once one agent quotes >your tail number, no other agency will touch you. I wish I had that kind >of advantage in my business. As you call around make up the N number, a new one for each agent. Get their quotes, then give the real n number to the agent you choose. Even though (as it's been pointed out) there are really only 3 underwriters out there, the variation in quotes is amazing. From 4 agents quoting the *same* underwriter I got quotes with a 25% spread. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 9 14:45:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 07:45:33 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507182427.0352c9f0@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <3EBBB0FD.1030109@tnstaafl.net> Richard, The flexural strength and modulus numbers for the proset are quite impressive compared to the west brand. So Burt recommends Proset for structural applications? Can I find that in the pusher? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 9 14:52:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 07:52:53 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507182427.0352c9f0@pop.charter.net> <3EBBB0FD.1030109@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3EBBB2B5.9050305@tnstaafl.net> disregard I found it in the Cozy Letters. Scott Derrick wrote: > Richard, > > The flexural strength and modulus numbers for the proset are quite > impressive compared to the west brand. > > So Burt recommends Proset for structural applications? Can I find that > in the pusher? > > Scott > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 9 15:19:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 10:19:20 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR::Rotary 20B References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <097001c31635$fbe013f0$0301a8c0@win2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_096D_01C31614.745A5560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, This looks good, Where did you get the 20B? Did you also do any = addition port modifications on it? Bob ------=_NextPart_000_096D_01C31614.745A5560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
This looks good,  Where did = you get the=20 20B?  Did you also do any addition port modifications on = it?
 
Bob
 
------=_NextPart_000_096D_01C31614.745A5560-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 9 15:31:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 08:31:25 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Epoxy Tests References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507182427.0352c9f0@pop.charter.net> <3EBBB0FD.1030109@tnstaafl.net> <3EBBB2B5.9050305@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3EBBBBBD.1000003@tnstaafl.net> I found this on the cozy mailing list. Very interesting... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Chris van Hoof Organization: C van Hoof - Architect Subject: COZY: EPOXY almost final results Hi to all, So, the epoxy specimen went to the lab.... then they told me that the samples were manufactured with the UNI in the wrong direction. That was disappointing....so we made another batch, all under normal conditions, these were acceptable for testing and the results are as follows:- INTERLAMINAR SHEAR STRENGHTS, Mpa Specimen Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy Epoxy #2 #3 #4 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 1 41.8 25.0 23.7 26.9 29.5 18.0 39.1 40.3 25.4 2 42.0 25.6 23.9 27.2 30.3 19.5 39.8 40.3 28.5 3 42.2 26.5 24.0 27.9 31.2 22.6 40.7 41.7 28.7 4 42.3 26.6 24.3 28.4 32.0 23.1 41.2 42.1 29.1 5 42.6 27.0 24.8 28.8 32.0 24.4 41.7 42.7 29.5 6 42.9 27.3 24.9 28.8 32.2 25.7 41.8 43.5 29.5 7 43.0 27.8 25.9 29.5 33.0 --.- --.- 44.2 30.7 8 44.2 --.- --.- 29.8 33.1 --.- --.- --.- 32.5 Mean 42.6 26.5 24.5 28.4 31.7 22.2 40.7 42.1 29.2 Std. Dev 0.761 0.969 0.764 1.03 1.26 2.93 1.08 1.49 2.02 Coeff Var0.018 0.037 0.031 0.036 0.040 0.132 0.027 0.035 0.069 (Not enough Epoxy was available to do #1 & #5 this time around, hope this does not cause anyone a problem. If it is really needed I'll try to obtain more, but won't do so unless specifically requested by a Cozy builder.) To recall the types:- 1 JEFCO Resin 1307 Hardner 3102 Mix 100:25 2 PROSET Resin 125 Hardner 226 Mix 100:30 3 EPOLAM 2020 system Mix 100:34 4 EPO 685 system Mix 100:38 5 REA HP system Mix 100:38 6 EPOLAM 2022 system Mix 100:40 7 EPOLITE 2427 system Mix 100:44 8 EPOLITE 2410 Resin 2410 Hardner 2184 Mix 100:44 9 SP Epoxy system Mix 100:25 10Shell info to follow in summary 11Vinylester info to follow in summary Note the strenght of type 8, which is very low and used by Cozy builders, please do your own tests here, to verify.... More will follow as and when it becomes available. All the above obtained thru' the kind help and assistance from the CSIR and in particular Dr Jim Huston and Mr Chris Adrian. Hope this helps someone. Chris #219 And then of course: the disclaimer part ... Although I publish everything I learn to all of you in order to share my .02, it will allways be only my opinion only and the path I'm following does not have to be followed by any of you. All the above is to enrich each of us with the info I found, and you will use/abuse this at your own risk. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 9 16:48:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 08:48:51 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:STRUCTURAL ADHESIVE In-Reply-To: <3EBBB0FD.1030109@tnstaafl.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030507182427.0352c9f0@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030509084613.02e32c10@pop.charter.net> At 07:45 AM 5/9/03 -0600, you wrote: >Richard, > >The flexural strength and modulus numbers for the proset are quite >impressive compared to the west brand. > >So Burt recommends Proset for structural applications? Can I find that in >the pusher? I don't think it's in the pusher, Burt tried not to recommend anything anymore. But it's all he uses at Scaled, he's qualified it under his military contracts. Talk to Gougeon about it - they make both so they don't have a horse in the race. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 9 20:32:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:32:37 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test In-Reply-To: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: --============_-1159613737==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. Dennis Martin Elite FG Chevy V-6 > > >I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. > Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally >aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs >more than a 200 hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max >operating point of 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the >rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a >plot of sea level torque and HP. More info will eventually be >available on my website. > > > >Al Gietzen > > > >POWER AND TORQUE > > > > > > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting > > > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting was > > > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up to > > > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve > > > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to > > > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 redrive > > > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no > > > point in pushing things further. > > > > > > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10 > > > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 - > > > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not > > > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the > > > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates about > > > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also > > > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a > > > couple of hours of running since overhaul. > > > >The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. > >I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. > >The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind >came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM >of 6000. > > > >Paul Lamar > > > > > > >Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41) --============_-1159613737==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test
Rock on, rotory guy.  Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy V-6

 
I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  Overall; I'm very pleased.  Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc.  It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop speed.  The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP.  More info will eventually be available on my website.
 
Al Gietzen
 
POWER AND TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting
> the mixture correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting was
> approximately for maximum power.  Data was initially gathered up to
> about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve
> was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to
> 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve.  Given that the 2.17 redrive
> ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no
> point in pushing things further.
>
> The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly constant from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not
> extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the
> stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may also
> improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a
> couple of hours of running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine.
I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race.
The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000.
 
Paul Lamar
 
 

Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41)

--============_-1159613737==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 10 14:04:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:04:55 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum Message-ID: I'm about to install my overhead fresh air plenum. I took it out yesterday and really looked at it for the first time. What is up with the little inverted NACA inlet molded into the back end??????? It looks like it was supposed to be cut off and used somewhere else. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Andy From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 10 22:18:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (J.P. Brooks) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:18:52 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test In-Reply-To: References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> --=====================_1208814==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Great news! Best of luck.... seriously. JP Brooks DeltaHawk, Inc. At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote: >Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how >silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. > >Dennis Martin >Elite FG Chevy V-6 > >> >>I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. Overall; >>I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally aspirated engine >>where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp >>Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 >>prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including >>a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and >>HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. >> >>Al Gietzen >> >>POWER AND TORQUE >> > >> > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting >> > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting was >> > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up to >> > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve >> > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to >> > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 redrive >> > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no >> > point in pushing things further. >> > >> > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10 >> > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 - >> > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not >> > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the >> > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates about >> > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also >> > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a >> > couple of hours of running since overhaul. >> >>The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. >>I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. >>The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came >>from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000. >> >>Paul Lamar >> >> >> >>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41) --=====================_1208814==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Great news!
Best of luck.... seriously.
JP Brooks
DeltaHawk, Inc.


At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote:
Rock on, rotory guy.  Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy V-6

 
I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  Overall; I'm very pleased.  Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc.  It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop speed.  The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP.  More info will eventually be available on my website.
 
Al Gietzen
 
POWER AND TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting
> the mixture correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting was
> approximately for maximum power.  Data was initially gathered up to
> about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve
> was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to
> 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve.  Given that the 2.17 redrive
> ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no
> point in pushing things further.
>
> The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly constant from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not
> extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the
> stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may also
> improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a
> couple of hours of running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine.
I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race.
The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000.
 
Paul Lamar
 
 

Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41)
--=====================_1208814==_.ALT-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 10 23:28:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:28:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> Message-ID: <001e01c31743$6b014980$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C31721.E38AF440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And congratulations to you too, JP!!! A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your new plane and diesel. Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours! ----- Original Message ----- From: J.P. Brooks To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test Great news! Best of luck.... seriously. JP Brooks DeltaHawk, Inc. At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote: Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. Dennis Martin Elite FG Chevy V-6 I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. Al Gietzen POWER AND TORQUE > > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting was > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up to > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 redrive > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no > point in pushing things further. > > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10 > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 - > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates about > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a > couple of hours of running since overhaul. The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000. Paul Lamar Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41) ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C31721.E38AF440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And congratulations to you too, JP!!!
 
A long road with light at the end - I know you are = tickled=20 with your new plane and diesel. 
 
Ronnie Brown
173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours!
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: J.P. Brooks
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test

Great news!
Best of luck.... seriously.
JP=20 Brooks
DeltaHawk, Inc.


At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you = wrote:
Rock on, rotory guy.  = Very=20 impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to = be when=20 you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy V-6


I've completed = dynamometer=20 testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  Overall; I'm very = pleased. =20 Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up=20 installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc.  It = should=20 give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop = speed.  The=20 following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response = from a=20 rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP.  More info = will=20 eventually be available on my website.
 
Al Gietzen
 
POWER AND = TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle power = and torque=20 curves were run after adjusting
> the = mixture=20 correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting = was
> approximately for maximum power.  Data was = initially=20 gathered up to
> about 6000 RPM, but = looking at=20 the data showed that the torque curve
> = was still=20 flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made = to
> 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve.  Given = that the=20 2.17 redrive
> ratio limits engine RPM = to about=20 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no
> point = in=20 pushing things further.
>
> The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; = varying only=20 by 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 = rpm to a=20 peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly = constant=20 from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not
>=20 extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs=20 the
> stock 9.0 rotors that are in the=20 engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a 4%=20 increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may=20 also
> improve some as the engine wears = in - this=20 is an engine with only a
> couple of = hours of=20 running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft=20 engine.
I can't wait to see one of these = engines in=20 an air race.
The Lycoming weenies are going = to wonder=20 where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per = rotor at=20 the benchmark RPM of 6000.
 
Paul Lamar
 
 

Attachment converted: = Macintosh=20 HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle)=20 (00022A41)
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C31721.E38AF440-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 00:40:28 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:40:28 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Engine Progress References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> <001e01c31743$6b014980$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <012d01c3174d$89c7d000$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C317A1.5B30BC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JP, Just how much further along is the inverted 200HP Deltahawk = realistically (ugh!) likely to be? ....and will it likely have a more = streamlined cowl for the Velocity. Still interested, Greg in Sydney Std RG Velocity Down Under. Ph: 9899 2737 Fax: 9899 2726 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:28 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test And congratulations to you too, JP!!! A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your = new plane and diesel. =20 Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: J.P. Brooks=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test Great news! Best of luck.... seriously. JP Brooks DeltaHawk, Inc. At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote: Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of = how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. Dennis Martin Elite FG Chevy V-6 I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. = Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally aspirated = engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 = hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of = 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine list = (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level = torque and HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. =20 Al Gietzen =20 POWER AND TORQUE > > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after = adjusting > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting = was > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up = to > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque = curve > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made = to > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 = redrive > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was = no > point in pushing things further. > > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only = by 10 > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at = 5000 - > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors = vs the > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates = about > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with = only a > couple of hours of running since overhaul. =20 The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head = wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM = of 6000. =20 Paul Lamar =20 =20 Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) = (00022A41) ------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C317A1.5B30BC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
JP,
 
Just how much further along is = the inverted=20 200HP Deltahawk realistically (ugh!) likely to be? ....and will it = likely=20 have a more streamlined cowl for the Velocity.
 
Still interested,
 
Greg in Sydney
Std RG Velocity Down Under.
Ph: 9899 2737  Fax: 9899 = 2726
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:28 = AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary = 20B dyno=20 Test

And congratulations to you too, JP!!!
 
A long road with light at the end - I know you are = tickled=20 with your new plane and diesel. 
 
Ronnie Brown
173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours!
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: J.P. Brooks =
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test

Great news!
Best of luck.... seriously.
JP=20 Brooks
DeltaHawk, Inc.


At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you=20 wrote:
Rock on, rotory = guy.  Very=20 impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going = to be=20 when you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy = V-6


I've completed=20 dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  Overall; = I'm very=20 pleased.  Great performance from a normally aspirated engine = where=20 the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp = Lyc. =20 It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 = prop=20 speed.  The following is a post to the rotary engine list = (including=20 a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and = HP.  More info will eventually be available on my=20 website.
 
Al=20 Gietzen
 
POWER AND = TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle = power and=20 torque curves were run after adjusting
> the=20 mixture correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting=20 was
> approximately for maximum = power. =20 Data was initially gathered up to
> = about 6000=20 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque = curve
> was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent = runs were=20 made to
> 7000 RPM. Still no break in = the hp=20 curve.  Given that the 2.17 redrive
> ratio=20 limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was=20 no
> point in pushing things=20 further.
>
> The=20 torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by=20 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 = rpm to a=20 peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly = constant=20 from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not
>=20 extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs=20 the
> stock 9.0 rotors that are in the = engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a=20 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may=20 also
> improve some as the engine = wears in -=20 this is an engine with only a
> couple = of hours=20 of running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft=20 engine.
I can't wait to see one of these = engines in=20 an air race.
The Lycoming weenies are = going to=20 wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 = HP per=20 rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000.
 
Paul = Lamar
 
 

Attachment converted: Macintosh = HD:power -=20 torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle)=20 (00022A41)
------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C317A1.5B30BC80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 02:06:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:06:33 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Re: Deltahawk Engine Progress References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> <001e01c31743$6b014980$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <012d01c3174d$89c7d000$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <000901c31759$90f4db00$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C3171E.E3D439A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, See http://www.deltahawkengines.com/object00.htm for the = schedule. See also the line drawings of the engines on the website. You're right; = the inverted V will easily fit in the standard cowl. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Poole=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Engine Progress JP, Just how much further along is the inverted 200HP Deltahawk = realistically (ugh!) likely to be? ....and will it likely have a more = streamlined cowl for the Velocity. Still interested, Greg in Sydney Std RG Velocity Down Under. Ph: 9899 2737 Fax: 9899 2726 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:28 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test And congratulations to you too, JP!!! A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your = new plane and diesel. =20 Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: J.P. Brooks=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test Great news! Best of luck.... seriously. JP Brooks DeltaHawk, Inc. At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote: Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of = how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. Dennis Martin Elite FG Chevy V-6 I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine. = Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally aspirated = engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 = hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of = 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine list = (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level = torque and HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. =20 Al Gietzen =20 POWER AND TORQUE > > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after = adjusting > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting = was > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered = up to > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque = curve > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were = made to > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 = redrive > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was = no > point in pushing things further. > > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying = only by 10 > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at = 5000 - > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors = vs the > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data = indicates about > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may = also > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with = only a > couple of hours of running since overhaul. =20 The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head = wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM = of 6000. =20 Paul Lamar =20 =20 Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif = (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41) ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C3171E.E3D439A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,  See http://www.deltahaw= kengines.com/object00.htm for=20 the schedule.
 
See also the line drawings of the = engines on the=20 website.  You're right; the inverted V will easily fit in the = standard=20 cowl.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg = Poole=20
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 = 4:40=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Engine = Progress

JP,
 
Just how much further along is = the=20 inverted 200HP Deltahawk realistically (ugh!) likely to = be? ....and will=20 it likely have a more streamlined cowl for the Velocity.
 
Still interested,
 
Greg in Sydney
Std RG Velocity Down Under.
Ph: 9899 2737  Fax: 9899=20 2726
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 = 8:28=20 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary = 20B dyno=20 Test

And congratulations to you too, = JP!!!
 
A long road with light at the end - I know you = are tickled=20 with your new plane and diesel. 
 
Ronnie Brown
173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 = hours!
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: = J.P. Brooks =
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test

Great news!
Best of luck.... seriously.
JP=20 Brooks
DeltaHawk, Inc.


At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you = wrote:
Rock on, rotory = guy.  Very=20 impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going = to be=20 when you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy = V-6


I've=20 completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  = Overall; I'm very pleased.  Great performance from a = normally=20 aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 = lbs more=20 than a 200 hp Lyc.  It should give me about 270 HP at my = max=20 operating point of 2900 prop speed.  The following is a = post to the=20 rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), = and a plot=20 of sea level torque and HP.  More info will eventually be = available=20 on my website.
 
Al=20 Gietzen
 
POWER AND = TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle = power and=20 torque curves were run after adjusting
> the=20 mixture correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting=20 was
> approximately for maximum = power. =20 Data was initially gathered up to
> = about 6000=20 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque=20 curve
> was still flat, and hp = increasing, so=20 subsequent runs were made to
> 7000 = RPM. Still=20 no break in the hp curve.  Given that the 2.17=20 redrive
> ratio limits engine RPM to = about=20 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no
> = point in=20 pushing things further.
>
> The torque curve is distinguished by it's = flatness; varying=20 only by 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs = at 4000=20 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly=20 constant from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is = not
> extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 = compression=20 rotors vs the
> stock 9.0 rotors = that are in=20 the engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 = rpm.  It=20 may also
> improve some as the = engine wears in=20 - this is an engine with only a
> = couple of=20 hours of running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to = make one hell=20 of an aircraft engine.
I can't wait to = see one of=20 these engines in an air race.
The = Lycoming=20 weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from = :) And=20 this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of=20 6000.
 
Paul=20 Lamar
 
 

Attachment = converted:=20 Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle)=20 = (00022A41)
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C3171E.E3D439A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 02:09:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:09:09 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum References: Message-ID: <001301c31759$ed4731a0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> Maybe it's molded in one piece now, and as you guessed, it's up to you to cut it loose. My little NACA scoop came as a separate piece from the plenum, but I got my kit in '99. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 6:04 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum > I'm about to install my overhead fresh air plenum. I took it out yesterday > and really looked at it for the first time. What is up with the little > inverted NACA inlet molded into the back end??????? It looks like it was > supposed to be cut off and used somewhere else. Any help would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 02:54:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:54:56 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR::Rotary 20B In-Reply-To: <097001c31635$fbe013f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: <000001c31760$560b0d50$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C31725.A9AC3550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This looks good, Where did you get the 20B? Did you also do any addition port modifications on it? Bob; I got mine from Atkins aviation; but quite frankly, I wouldn't go there again. No first hand experience, but my impression is that Bruce Turrentine is the place to go for your aviation version of the rotary. Bruce Turrentine@AOL.com. Better yet, get the stock engine from an importer and rebuild it yourself. No port mods, just some polishing. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C31725.A9AC3550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This looks good,  Where did you get the = 20B?  Did you also do any addition port modifications on it?

 

 

Bob; I got mine from Atkins = aviation; but quite frankly, I wouldn’t go there again.  No first hand experience, but my impression is that Bruce Turrentine is the place to = go for your aviation version of the rotary.  Bruce Turrentine@AOL.com.  Better = yet, get the stock engine from an importer and rebuild it = yourself.

 

No port mods, just some = polishing.

 

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C31725.A9AC3550-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 03:17:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 22:17:16 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum In-Reply-To: <001301c31759$ed4731a0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply Keith. I went out to the Velocity website and found a picture of the plenum installed. Apparently I just leave it alone and install it as is. I don't understand why it is that way, but I'll do it. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of KeithHallsten Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:09 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum Maybe it's molded in one piece now, and as you guessed, it's up to you to cut it loose. My little NACA scoop came as a separate piece from the plenum, but I got my kit in '99. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 6:04 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum > I'm about to install my overhead fresh air plenum. I took it out yesterday > and really looked at it for the first time. What is up with the little > inverted NACA inlet molded into the back end??????? It looks like it was > supposed to be cut off and used somewhere else. Any help would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 07:10:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (J.P. Brooks) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:10:58 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test In-Reply-To: <001e01c31743$6b014980$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030510230634.009eb970@mail.cwebs.com> --=====================_30077985==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Most kind of you to say Ronnie, It has been a long road indeed. Doug, Diane, and team are the ones who did the heavy lifting. It is a privilege just to stand in their shadow. Sometimes we ask ourselves,... "why have we even started this thing?". Then we remember: "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretzsky, hockey great Win or loose, you can't say we didn't raise the bar. Thanks for your kind thoughts and certainly any prayers sent our way. We have more work ahead. JP At 06:28 PM 5/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: >And congratulations to you too, JP!!! > >A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your new >plane and diesel. > >Ronnie Brown >173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours! > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: J.P. Brooks >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test > >Great news! >Best of luck.... seriously. >JP Brooks >DeltaHawk, Inc. > > >At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote: >>Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how >>silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. >> >>Dennis Martin >>Elite FG Chevy V-6 >> >>> >>>I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary >>>engine. Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally >>>aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more >>>than a 200 hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating >>>point of 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine >>>list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level >>>torque and HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. >>> >>>Al Gietzen >>> >>>POWER AND TORQUE >>> > >>> > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting >>> > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting was >>> > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up to >>> > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve >>> > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to >>> > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 redrive >>> > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no >>> > point in pushing things further. >>> > >>> > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10 >>> > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 - >>> > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not >>> > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the >>> > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates about >>> > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also >>> > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a >>> > couple of hours of running since overhaul. >>> >>>The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. >>>I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. >>>The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came >>>from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000. >>> >>>Paul Lamar >>> >>> >>> >>>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) >>>(00022A41) --=====================_30077985==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Most kind of you to say Ronnie,
It has been a long road indeed.  Doug, Diane, and team are the ones who did the heavy lifting.  It is a privilege just to stand in their shadow.
Sometimes we ask ourselves,...  "why have we even started this thing?".  Then we remember:
                                                                                "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take"
                                                                                                Wayne Gretzsky, hockey great
Win or loose, you can't say we didn't raise the bar.
Thanks for your kind thoughts and certainly any prayers sent our way.  We have more work ahead.
JP



At 06:28 PM 5/10/2003 -0400, you wrote:
And congratulations to you too, JP!!!
 
A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your new plane and diesel. 
 
Ronnie Brown
173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours!
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: J.P. Brooks
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test

Great news!
Best of luck.... seriously.
JP Brooks
DeltaHawk, Inc.


At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote:
Rock on, rotory guy.  Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy V-6


I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  Overall; I'm very pleased.  Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc.  It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop speed.  The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP.  More info will eventually be available on my website.
 
Al Gietzen
 
POWER AND TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting
> the mixture correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting was
> approximately for maximum power.  Data was initially gathered up to
> about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve
> was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to
> 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve.  Given that the 2.17 redrive
> ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no
> point in pushing things further.
>
> The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly constant from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not
> extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the
> stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may also
> improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a
> couple of hours of running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine.
I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race.
The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000.
 
Paul Lamar
 
 

Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41)
--=====================_30077985==_.ALT-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 07:17:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (J.P. Brooks) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:17:46 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Engine Progress In-Reply-To: <012d01c3174d$89c7d000$5126fea9@greg> References: <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> <001e01c31743$6b014980$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030510231118.00a1c120@mail.cwebs.com> --=====================_30485768==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yesterday was the second flight of N211JP. All looks very good. If we had 10 Doug Doers, Dean Bergmans and Dave Driscolls we would be well under way to the 400 hp V8. They are gleaning so much more out of this engine that we see as "definites". The inverted design seems to require only moderate modifications. Testing may reveal more. I'll leave the specific time speculation to Doug. Yes, it will streamline the cowl to a more aesthetic beauty. I'm sure you all have seen the "hump" on our web site. I call it the "guppy" look. See you all at OSH. We should be allowed to fly there every day. JP At 09:40 AM 5/11/2003 +1000, you wrote: >JP, > >Just how much further along is the inverted 200HP Deltahawk realistically >(ugh!) likely to be? ....and will it likely have a more streamlined cowl >for the Velocity. > >Still interested, > >Greg in Sydney >Std RG Velocity Down Under. >Ph: 9899 2737 Fax: 9899 2726 >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ronnie Brown >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:28 AM >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test > >And congratulations to you too, JP!!! > >A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your new >plane and diesel. > >Ronnie Brown >173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours! > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: J.P. Brooks >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test > >Great news! >Best of luck.... seriously. >JP Brooks >DeltaHawk, Inc. > > > >At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote: >>Rock on, rotory guy. Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how >>silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne. >> >>Dennis Martin >>Elite FG Chevy V-6 >> >>>I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary >>>engine. Overall; I'm very pleased. Great performance from a normally >>>aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more >>>than a 200 hp Lyc. It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating >>>point of 2900 prop speed. The following is a post to the rotary engine >>>list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level >>>torque and HP. More info will eventually be available on my website. >>> >>>Al Gietzen >>> >>>POWER AND TORQUE >>> > >>> > Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting >>> > the mixture correction table and the timing. Mixture setting was >>> > approximately for maximum power. Data was initially gathered up to >>> > about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve >>> > was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to >>> > 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve. Given that the 2.17 redrive >>> > ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no >>> > point in pushing things further. >>> > >>> > The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10 >>> > ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 - >>> > nearly constant from 4800 to 6800. The 220 ft-lbs is not >>> > extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the >>> > stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine. Mazda's data indicates about >>> > a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm. It may also >>> > improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a >>> > couple of hours of running since overhaul. >>> >>>The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine. >>>I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race. >>>The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came >>>from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000. >>> >>>Paul Lamar >>> >>> >>> >>>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) >>>(00022A41) --=====================_30485768==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Yesterday was the second flight of N211JP.  All looks very good.
If we had 10 Doug Doers, Dean Bergmans and Dave Driscolls we would be well under way to the 400 hp V8.  They are gleaning so much more out of this engine that we see as "definites".
The inverted design seems to require only moderate modifications.  Testing may reveal more.  I'll leave the specific time speculation to Doug.
Yes, it will streamline the cowl to a more aesthetic beauty.  I'm sure you all have seen the "hump" on our web site.  I call it the "guppy" look.
See you all at OSH.  We should be allowed to fly there every day.
JP


At 09:40 AM 5/11/2003 +1000, you wrote:
JP,
 
Just how much further along is the inverted 200HP Deltahawk realistically (ugh!) likely to be? ....and will it likely have a more streamlined cowl for the Velocity.
 
Still interested,
 
Greg in Sydney
Std RG Velocity Down Under.
Ph: 9899 2737  Fax: 9899 2726
----- Original Message -----
From: Ronnie Brown
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test

And congratulations to you too, JP!!!
 
A long road with light at the end - I know you are tickled with your new plane and diesel. 
 
Ronnie Brown
173 Elite RG - Lycasaurus - 34 hours!
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: J.P. Brooks
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Rotary 20B dyno Test

Great news!
Best of luck.... seriously.
JP Brooks
DeltaHawk, Inc.



At 01:32 PM 5/9/2003 -0600, you wrote:
Rock on, rotory guy.  Very impressive results, and I'm envious of how silky smooth it's going to be when you get airborne.

Dennis Martin
Elite FG Chevy V-6

I've completed dynamometer testing of my 3-rotor rotary engine.  Overall; I'm very pleased.  Great performance from a normally aspirated engine where the all-up installation weighs maybe 45 lbs more than a 200 hp Lyc.  It should give me about 270 HP at my max operating point of 2900 prop speed.  The following is a post to the rotary engine list (including a response from a rotary Guru), and a plot of sea level torque and HP.  More info will eventually be available on my website.
 
Al Gietzen
 
POWER AND TORQUE
>
> Wide open throttle power and torque curves were run after adjusting
> the mixture correction table and the timing.  Mixture setting was
> approximately for maximum power.  Data was initially gathered up to
> about 6000 RPM, but looking at the data showed that the torque curve
> was still flat, and hp increasing, so subsequent runs were made to
> 7000 RPM. Still no break in the hp curve.  Given that the 2.17 redrive
> ratio limits engine RPM to about 6300 (Prop @ 2900), there was no
> point in pushing things further.
>
> The torque curve is distinguished by it's flatness; varying only by 10
> ft-lbs from 210 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm to a peak of 220 ft-lbs at 5000 -
> nearly constant from 4800 to 6800.  The 220 ft-lbs is not
> extraordinary, and could be improved by 9.7 compression rotors vs the
> stock 9.0 rotors that are in the engine.  Mazda's data indicates about
> a 4% increase in power with 9.7 vs 9.0 at 5000 rpm.  It may also
> improve some as the engine wears in - this is an engine with only a
> couple of hours of running since overhaul.
 
The 20B is going to make one hell of an aircraft engine.
I can't wait to see one of these engines in an air race.
The Lycoming weenies are going to wonder where the severe head wind came from :) And this is only 87 HP per rotor at the benchmark RPM of 6000.
 
Paul Lamar
 
 

Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:power - torque1.gif (GIFf/ogle) (00022A41)
--=====================_30485768==_.ALT-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 11 14:49:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (J.P. Brooks) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:49:03 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:DeltaHawk engine progress In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030510231118.00a1c120@mail.cwebs.com> References: <012d01c3174d$89c7d000$5126fea9@greg> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <000001c31587$4f64cc00$6400a8c0@BigAl> <5.1.0.14.0.20030510141809.00a2a9a0@mail.cwebs.com> <001e01c31743$6b014980$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030511064556.009ea260@mail.cwebs.com> ...forgot to tell you. More info at: www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?ContentBlockID=9548 ...interview with Doug. Safe travels, JP At 11:17 PM 5/10/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Yesterday was the second flight of N211JP. All looks very good. >If we had 10 Doug Doers, Dean Bergmans and Dave Driscolls we would be well >under way to the 400 hp V8. They are gleaning so much more out of this >engine that we see as "definites". >The inverted design seems to require only moderate modifications. Testing >may reveal more. I'll leave the specific time speculation to Doug. >Yes, it will streamline the cowl to a more aesthetic beauty. I'm sure you >all have seen the "hump" on our web site. I call it the "guppy" look. >See you all at OSH. We should be allowed to fly there every day. >JP From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 09:42:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 01:42:05 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Filling a gap Message-ID: <008201c31862$739f30a0$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> I'm installing the top NACA molded scoops in my SEFG. I cut one of the holes in the firewall a little too enthusiastically and now have about a quarter inch gap between the floor of the scoop and the hole in the firewall - the sides are a good fit. Is it sufficient to fill with flox before covering with BID or do I need some additional padding in the gap? If so any suggestions on what I should use? Thanks all Tony SEFG From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 12:01:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:01:18 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Filling a gap References: <008201c31862$739f30a0$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Message-ID: <000501c31875$d12e0440$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I think that will work fine. Ronnie Brown 173 Elite RG - 34 hours of test flights ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Babb" To: Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:42 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Filling a gap > I'm installing the top NACA molded scoops in my SEFG. I cut one of the holes > in the firewall a little too enthusiastically and now have about a quarter > inch gap between the floor of the scoop and the hole in the firewall - the > sides are a good fit. > > Is it sufficient to fill with flox before covering with BID or do I need > some additional padding in the gap? If so any suggestions on what I should > use? > > Thanks all > > Tony > > SEFG > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 16:13:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:13:50 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052752430.3ebfba2e480a9@webmail.123mail.net> I'd asked this question at the factory, it's molded that way to avoid the top engine bold on the Lycombing is what I recall the answer to be. I don't have my engine mount, so I can't confirm that though.... Brett Quoting Andy Millin : > I'm about to install my overhead fresh air plenum. I > took it out yesterday > and really looked at it for the first time. What is > up with the little > inverted NACA inlet molded into the back end??????? > It looks like it was > supposed to be cut off and used somewhere else. Any > help would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 16:13:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brett Ferrell) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 08:13:50 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1052752430.3ebfba2e480a9@webmail.123mail.net> I'd asked this question at the factory, it's molded that way to avoid the top engine bold on the Lycombing is what I recall the answer to be. I don't have my engine mount, so I can't confirm that though.... Brett Quoting Andy Millin : > I'm about to install my overhead fresh air plenum. I > took it out yesterday > and really looked at it for the first time. What is > up with the little > inverted NACA inlet molded into the back end??????? > It looks like it was > supposed to be cut off and used somewhere else. Any > help would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 16:23:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:23:56 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum Message-ID: <9c.3123ce4e.2bf1168c@aol.com> --part1_9c.3123ce4e.2bf1168c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yep, the small duct-like area is to allow the top mounting bolt on the Lycoming to fit through the firewall below the plenum. At this time ignore it and simply install it as is. Bob Wood N658SE --part1_9c.3123ce4e.2bf1168c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, the small duct-like area is to allow the top moun= ting bolt on the Lycoming to fit through the firewall below the plenum. At t= his time ignore it and simply install it as is.

Bob Wood
N658SE --part1_9c.3123ce4e.2bf1168c_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 16:37:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:37:59 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C31872.8E83DA50 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C31872.8E83DA50" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C31872.8E83DA50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_000D_01C31872.8E83DA50" ------=_NextPart_002_000D_01C31872.8E83DA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankThis is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first = attempt so I reduced the resolution. Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a previous = thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution. It's = cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it. It = requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need = do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque = tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice = thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble. You're = done. Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ------=_NextPart_002_000D_01C31872.8E83DA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first = attempt=20 so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous=20 thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own = solution.  It's=20 cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it.  It = requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need = do is=20 temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, = fill in the=20 space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox = mixture. =20 Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures=20 instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 

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AoJB60lGc0ALkDtTaDSigB3OODTc5PNLmk6DpQAU4Hmm96WgB/bGAaUDJPc+9Mzn607nbj/9dACE nA+XjNNpzKRTc57UAHagUlLQA8U2XiWlFJN98UAW4/uinUyL7op9IQUUUZoAKKKKACiiigAooooA KKKKACikoyM4oGLRRRQAUUUUCCiiigAooopgFFFFIAooooGLRSUtAgooooGFFJS0AJS0lFABS0lF ABS0UmecUALRRRQAUUUUCCiiigApKWigYlFLSUCCiiigZXm+/URqab79QmgBKBRSUwFNI1FB5zQA lFFFAC0UA80vUUAFHak6Uo6c0AJinY4GKTrRk0ALnt0peRTe1KT+VAAcnnNIOenahuvpSUAHel70 hpRQA4Uk3VaUUk38NAFqLlBT6jg+4KkpCCiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKYynIIp9FABRRRQA UUUUAFFFFABRRRTAKKKKACjpRRSGFGaKKACiiigQUtFFABRRRQAUlFFAxaT3oooAWiiigAooooAK KKKACiiigQUUUUDEooooEV5vv1EaKKADtTaKKYw9aSiigAooooAWg0UUAJmjpRRQAo5py9KKKAFf C/LimE0UUAGaXPSiigA6UCiigBwpJvurRRQBYg+4KloopCCloooAKSiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAoo ooAKKKKAEpaKKACkoooAUdKKKKYBRRRSA//Z ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C31872.8E83DA50-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 17:03:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 11:03:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. References: Message-ID: <001101c318a0$0f0537a0$b212570c@Workshop> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C31876.25779F70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C31876.25779F70" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C31876.25779F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankCool. Good thinking. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Laurence Coen=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 10:37 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt = so I reduced the resolution. Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution. = It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it. = It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you = need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and = torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a = nice thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble. = You're done. Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C31876.25779F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Cool.  Good thinking.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Laurence Coen=20
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 = 10:37 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to = torque tube=20 slop.

This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first = attempt=20 so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous=20 thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own = solution. =20 It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do = it.  It=20 requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you = need do is=20 temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, = fill in=20 the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox=20 mixture.  Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're = done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 

------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C31876.25779F70-- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C31876.25779F70 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <000c01c318a0$0e467b80$b212570c@Workshop> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C31876.25779F70-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 17:12:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:12:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. References: Message-ID: <004e01c318a1$57d53e20$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C3187F.D0467EE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_004A_01C3187F.D0467EE0" ------=_NextPart_001_004A_01C3187F.D0467EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlankFANTASTIC!!! I just ordered a foot of 1" dia aluminum rod from Spruce this morning to make some bushings. But I like your idea even better. Whole lots less work - other than it might be harder to do since my plane is already flying - but for some one who can easily get to their stick and torque tube, this is great!!! You've got my vote for this year's great idea! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Coen To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:37 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt so I reduced the resolution. Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a previous thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution. It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it. It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble. You're done. Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two pictures instead. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ------=_NextPart_001_004A_01C3187F.D0467EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
FANTASTIC!!!
 
I just ordered a foot of 1" dia aluminum rod from Spruce this = morning to=20 make some bushings.  But I like your idea even = better.  =20 Whole lots less work - other than it might be harder to do since my = plane is=20 already flying - but for some one who can easily get to their stick and = torque=20 tube, this is great!!!
 
You've got my vote for this year's great idea!
 
Ronnie
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Laurence = Coen=20
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:37 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop.

This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first = attempt=20 so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous=20 thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own = solution.  It's=20 cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it.  It = requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need = do is=20 temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, = fill in the=20 space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox = mixture. =20 Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures=20 instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 

------=_NextPart_001_004A_01C3187F.D0467EE0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C3187F.D0467EE0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004801c318a1$570d5a40$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C3187F.D0467EE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 17:55:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 10:55:05 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C318A7.3CFA2894 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_002_01C318A7.3CFA2894" ------_=_NextPart_002_01C318A7.3CFA2894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Very nice! -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Coen [mailto:lwcoen@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:38 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt so = I reduced the resolution. =20 Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a previous = thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution. It's = cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it. It = requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need = do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque = tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice = thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble. You're = done. =20 Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead. =20 Larry Coen SE RG Franklin =20 ------_=_NextPart_002_01C318A7.3CFA2894 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Very nice!
-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Coen = [mailto:lwcoen@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:38=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick = to=20 torque tube slop.
This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first = attempt=20 so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous=20 thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own = solution. =20 It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do = it.  It=20 requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you = need do is=20 temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, = fill in=20 the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox=20 mixture.  Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're = done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 

------_=_NextPart_002_01C318A7.3CFA2894-- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C318A7.3CFA2894 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <883585416@12052003-2dd8> Content-Description: Blank Bkgrd.gif Content-Location: Blank%20Bkgrd.gif R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C318A7.3CFA2894-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 22:31:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 07:31:42 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. References: Message-ID: <01df01c318cd$e1fca8a0$5126fea9@greg> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01DB_01C31921.B32B9960 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_01DC_01C31921.B32B9960" ------=_NextPart_001_01DC_01C31921.B32B9960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BlankLaurence, Your idea has got my vote - wonderful!! Greg in Sydney. SE RG Down Under Greg Poole POOLED RESOURCES PTY LTD Ph: 9899 2737 Fax: 9899 2726 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Laurence Coen=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 1:37 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt = so I reduced the resolution. Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution. = It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it. = It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you = need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and = torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a = nice thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble. = You're done. Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin ------=_NextPart_001_01DC_01C31921.B32B9960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blank
Laurence,
 
Your idea has got my vote -=20 wonderful!!
 
Greg in Sydney.
SE RG Down Under
Greg Poole
POOLED RESOURCES PTY LTD
Ph: 9899 2737  Fax: = 9899=20 2726
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Laurence Coen=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 = 1:37 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to = torque tube=20 slop.

This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first = attempt=20 so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a = previous=20 thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own = solution. =20 It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do = it.  It=20 requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you = need do is=20 temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, = fill in=20 the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox=20 mixture.  Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're = done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two = pictures instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 

------=_NextPart_001_01DC_01C31921.B32B9960-- ------=_NextPart_000_01DB_01C31921.B32B9960 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Blank Bkgrd.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <01da01c318cd$e16598c0$5126fea9@greg> R0lGODlhLQAtAID/AP////f39ywAAAAALQAtAEACcAxup8vtvxKQsFon6d02898pGkgiYoCm6sq2 7iqWcmzOsmeXeA7uPJd5CYdD2g9oPF58ygqz+XhCG9JpJGmlYrPXGlfr/Yo/VW45e7amp2tou/lW xo/zX513z+Vt+1n/tiX2pxP4NUhy2FM4xtjIUQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_01DB_01C31921.B32B9960-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 13 03:09:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:09:26 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum In-Reply-To: <1052752430.3ebfba2e480a9@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: Brett, Thanks for the help. It makes sense now. Didn't when I looked at it. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Brett Ferrell Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:14 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org; Andy Millin Cc: Reflector Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fresh air plenum I'd asked this question at the factory, it's molded that way to avoid the top engine bold on the Lycombing is what I recall the answer to be. I don't have my engine mount, so I can't confirm that though.... Brett Quoting Andy Millin : > I'm about to install my overhead fresh air plenum. I > took it out yesterday > and really looked at it for the first time. What is > up with the little > inverted NACA inlet molded into the back end??????? > It looks like it was > supposed to be cut off and used somewhere else. Any > help would be > appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 13 12:18:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Lynn Gallup) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 06:18:01 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick-Fix Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030513060347.00a7a030@pop-server.mn.rr.com> Larry,
Great "StickFix" idea and pictures.
If the flox holds up, and I think it should, it will be a better idea than I came up with.

I bought a chunk of 3/4 inch I.D. steel "schedule tubing" (means slip-fit with 3/4 inch O.D. tubing). From this I cut two, one-inch lengths. These I split lengthwise with a hacksaw and drilled for the bolt. I now had four steel reinforcing "washers" to put on both sides of the stick tube and the torque tube. I filed a flat surface on the mating inside pieces. So far, so good.

Regards,
Lynn
======================
At 10:37 AM 5/12/2003 Monday, you wrote:
This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first attempt so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a previous thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution.  It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it.  It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox mixture.  Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two pictures instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 



From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 13 18:57:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 11:57:32 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights? In-Reply-To: <013a01c30940$2727e9f0$0301a8c0@win2k> References: <1ea.72506c8.2bd749c3@aol.com> <013a01c30940$2727e9f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: --============_-1159273840==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Bob, I have one AS mini fish eye light, but I'm not sure I want to use them. Where did you get the pin-hole lights? (I haven't heard that term). Can you give us a little more detail on them? Cost? Supplier? Model number? Thanks in advance, Dennis Martin >i have installed the eye ball ones from a van shop for the back >and pin hole lites for the front pax > >----- Original Message ----- >From: PVTPIL8@aol.com >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:43 PM >Subject: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights? > >I am looking to put interior reading lights over the four positions >in my XL-RG. I will have a Tan interior, any suggestions on what >type and where can I get them. I was considering the miniature fish >eye lights from Spruce. But they only come in black. Anybody use >these or other types? >Please let me know >Thanks >Steve --============_-1159273840==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights?
Bob,

I have one AS mini fish eye light, but I'm not sure I want to use them.

Where did you get the pin-hole lights?  (I haven't heard that term).  Can you give us a little more detail on them?  Cost?  Supplier?  Model number?

Thanks in advance,

Dennis Martin


i have installed the eye  ball ones from a van shop  for the back and pin hole lites for the front pax
----- Original Message -----
From: PVTPIL8@aol.com
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:43 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights?

I am looking to put interior reading lights over the four positions in my XL-RG.  I will have a Tan interior, any suggestions on what type and where can I get them.  I was considering the miniature fish eye lights from Spruce.  But they only come in black. Anybody use these or other types?
Please let me know
Thanks
Steve

--============_-1159273840==_ma============-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 13 19:02:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dennis Martin) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 12:02:01 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cowl fasteners/for Richard In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030422082415.0237d340@pop.charter.net> References: <3EA400D9.5030507@tnstaafl.net> <3EA41450.8030704@tnstaafl.net> <001001c30867$c765d820$65c262d8@bldrdoc.gov> <5.2.0.9.2.20030421213719.02b36ec0@pop.charter.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030422082415.0237d340@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: Hello Richard, I've got the piano hing/wire system on my top cowl. Elegant solution. I will will use same on my side cowl fasteners (all courtesy of Kurt Winker). The piano hinge doesn't work as well on the bottom (hard to pull out the end of the wire). I'm considering using your system - it's more bullet proof and one less thing to worry about. The way I laid up my cowl, the lip that slips into the bottom is a bit thicker than most. When I checked on cam locks, the sales rep at AS told me my cowl lip was too thick to use cam locks. Obviously, I can sand the cowl lip down. I assume you got the longest cam lock available (if that's what you're using). Can you tell me the part number and where you ordered them? Thanks in advance, Dennis Martin >At 08:44 AM 4/22/03 -0600, you wrote: > >>This seams a lot like using screws. > >It is. Just, REALLY expensive screws. The good part is they only >take a 1/4 turn to put in, and, unlike the nutplate, they don't wear >out over time. > >The bad part is, did I mention they're really expensive? Like $25 each. > >I don't recommend it, but thought I'd pass it along. It might spark >a much better idea from someone else. I saw someone using it to >hold on the back end of a Long EZ baggage pod, but it made more >sense there. You have to get it on and off more often than the >cowls, and there are only three of the things. > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 00:29:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Kuc) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:29:30 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights? References: <1ea.72506c8.2bd749c3@aol.com> <013a01c30940$2727e9f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Message-ID: <01a301c319a7$813d0ac0$0301a8c0@win2k> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_019F_01C31985.F99EE230 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_01A0_01C31985.F99EE230" ------=_NextPart_001_01A0_01C31985.F99EE230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights?After doing a little research, I = have two of these installed in the overhead purccashed from ACS MINIATURE EYEBALL COCKPIT LIGHTS P/N 11-07800 $12.500 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_01A0_01C31985.F99EE230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights?
After doing a little research, I have = two of these=20 installed in the overhead purccashed from ACS

MINIATURE EYEBALL COCKPIT LIGHTS

P/N 11-07800 $12.500 =20

------=_NextPart_001_01A0_01C31985.F99EE230-- ------=_NextPart_000_019F_01C31985.F99EE230 Content-Type: image/gif; name="order2.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/tiff2/order2.gif R0lGODdhJQAMAMQAAP////Dy9dXc6MjS5LW6xZWq1JWbqI6du4GTt3uWy3WCpWBvjl99vFhwoFFi g0tutktWbkNYgDNmzC9duixYsClSpCNHjh47dhkzZhYrVhEjRgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAA JQAMAAAFw6AkjmRpnmiqrmzrpkkACM9UAPhAMTgw1LccpRdgTEo8BIYQsNwyC4CD58AIBE5AJoOx AAwawcByHD0xDekBAGFm0hC0GkAYKCp0R8CAoZBuGhY8EGsDAAtvbBeDaxAOEXgCAQIaF2UiPAoW AwEaa2ECi2wWV54AGl14BgoAmpcSEwgCMxEZnxF0aTgEtWs5qhpMEX4kFBcYyBYVxxYWGBcXW1zK 0dPOF84YFSYTFd4T4BTgFRQU3uTg3d7i5RPtL/AoIQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_019F_01C31985.F99EE230-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 03:14:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jay Yu) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 21:14:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent -- SOLVED In-Reply-To: <001a01c314fc$5d401220$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: Not sure if this is useful info but welcome any/all comments. I just came back from a test flight. I saw fuel pressure at 7~8 psi in flight and ~6 psi on the ground. I did NOT buy a new sensor. What I did was I reinstalled the sensor at the bottom of the engine in the path of fresh air flow from my lower cowl intake air scoop (The sensor used to be on firewall about 4" away from exhaust pipe but covered with reflective heat shield). Another thing I noticed is that I now get ~170 degree oil temperature with 2500RPM/24"MP. This is 50 degrees lower than what I had before. The difference is that I used to install oil temp probe on a tee in between oil bypass group and old style fuel pump and now I installed it in the plug where the "stronger" spring is installed. I did see that the oil temp increased to more 190 degree while taxiing back to hangar after landed. The third thing is that I got ~5" vacuum at 2500 rpm. Apparently the direction change of the vacuum pump did not screw up. Jay Yu Velocity RGE N86YU -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent That's not too good. If it had been parked for 5-10 years, MAYBE!! I'd say JPI needs to provide higher quality sensors. On the other hand, let me put in a good word for NAVAID. I bought my Navaid autopilot three years ago (too soon), but in any event, I just started flying my Velocity last month. I have 29 hours flown and got around to trouble shooting the fact that the Navaid would not lock onto GPS course, but would track a heading. I called Navaid and he said he would ship me a new GPS Coupler to fix the problem. No hassle!!! NOW THAT IS CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Yu" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > FYI. > > (I can't believe this! Mine was sitting since last August.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: JPI Tech Support [mailto:jpitech@pacbell.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:30 AM > To: Jay Yu > Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > > > This is a follow-up from our phone conversation of earlier this morning. We > have reviewed you request and still think that replacing the Fuel Pressure > sensor is the best resolution. The Part number of the Fuel Pressure sensor > is 3060-17 and sells for $100.00 plus shipping. > > The main issue is in the sensor where you have a wiper are that after > sitting for a pro-longed period will create an indentation in the pickup in > the sensor and would only read at lower temperature (or pressure), then when > the engine gets warmer, the wiper arm in the sensor would get stuck in this > depression and would not read higher. Another thing is to be certain not to > hard mount the sensor. It must be mounted on a flexible tube about six (6) > inches in length (AEROQUIP 303 line) to protect the sensor from engine > vibration which can damage the sensor's wiper arm and sending unit. > > Lastly, to check the instrument you simply disconnect the harness wire and > the instrument head should read a high reading caused by an open circuit, > then connect the wires and the reading on the instrument will read lower due > to the short. > > We hope this helps. > > Regards, > > JPI Product Support > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay Yu" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:10 PM > Subject: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a SlimLine fuel pressure instrument. Recently I saw 0 pressure > right > > after engine runup (before take off). It seems that when the engine is > cold, > > the reading is ok. Also when I removed the cowls, the reading was ok too. > > This seems to suggest that when the engine compartment is warm/hot. I have > a > > reading problem. Does this make sense? > > > > This evening I measured the resistence between the two wires on the > > connector on the instrument side. I noticed that when there was no fuel > > pressure, the reading was 7.5 Ohms. When I turned on electric boost pump, > > the reading was 29.8 Ohms (I can normally get about 5 - 6 psi when the > > electric boost pump is on). I also plugged the fuel pressure connector to > > oil pressure instrument. I noticed that the reading was 0 when there was > no > > fuel pressure and the reading was 15 psi when I turned on electric boost > > pump. > > > > Based on these observations, can you tell if my fuel pressure instrument > is > > bad or the fuel pressure sender is bad? If it's the fuel pressure sender, > > could it be the temperature in engine compartment causing this problem? > Also > > can you give me some technical specification on the fuel pressure sender > > such as the relationship between resistence and psi? On your web site I > saw > > the correlation between oil pressure and resistence such as 0 Ohm for 0 > psi, > > 89 Ohms for 50 psi and 630 psi for open circuit. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jinquan Yu > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 12 20:23:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (-LD) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 15:23:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot In-Reply-To: <3E5FF319.4010904@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? John Dortch N83AD From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 03:25:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Lanza) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:25:59 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sensor Mounting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <66A61FE8-85B3-11D7-8DA2-000393BC26D4@bellsouth.net> A word of caution here, Mounting a fuel or oil pressure sensor on an engine is not recommended. The reason that the sensors are remote mounted to the firewall or engine mount via a flexible hose is to avoid a mechanical failure of the sensor due to engine vibration. Many DAR's will fail a directly mounted sensor, and why take the chance of it breaking...? Fly Safe, Wayne Lanza ___________________________________________________________ On Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 10:14 PM, Jay Yu wrote: > Not sure if this is useful info but welcome any/all comments. > > I just came back from a test flight. I saw fuel pressure at 7~8 psi in > flight and ~6 psi on the ground. I did NOT buy a new sensor. What I > did was > I reinstalled the sensor at the bottom of the engine in the path of > fresh > air flow from my lower cowl intake air scoop (The sensor used to be on > firewall about 4" away from exhaust pipe but covered with reflective > heat > shield). From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 04:56:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:56:17 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sensor Mounting In-Reply-To: <66A61FE8-85B3-11D7-8DA2-000393BC26D4@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: It depends on the sensor. Most of us seem to use the VDO sensors that I have heard are prone to cracking. The good thing is that the pressure orifice is very small. There are plenty of industrial sensors that will withstand our engine vibration, but you can't buy them for $35 either. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Wayne Lanza > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 9:26 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Sensor Mounting > > > A word of caution here, > Mounting a fuel or oil pressure sensor on an engine is not recommended. > The reason that the sensors are remote mounted to the firewall or engine > mount via a flexible hose is to avoid a mechanical failure of the > sensor due > to engine vibration. Many DAR's will fail a directly mounted sensor, > and why > take the chance of it breaking...? > > Fly Safe, > Wayne Lanza > ___________________________________________________________ > > On Tuesday, May 13, 2003, at 10:14 PM, Jay Yu wrote: > > > Not sure if this is useful info but welcome any/all comments. > > > > I just came back from a test flight. I saw fuel pressure at 7~8 psi in > > flight and ~6 psi on the ground. I did NOT buy a new sensor. What I > > did was > > I reinstalled the sensor at the bottom of the engine in the path of > > fresh > > air flow from my lower cowl intake air scoop (The sensor used to be on > > firewall about 4" away from exhaust pipe but covered with reflective > > heat > > shield). > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 05:14:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:14:53 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? Message-ID: <3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd@aol.com> --part1_3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for some insight on fire suppression systems. We are finishing up the engine compartment of my XL-RG and trying to make a decision on a system. Has anyone installed one? What kind? Halon or other? Manual or automatic? What CU. FT ? >From Who and about how much?? Thanks Steve --part1_3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am looking for some insight on fire suppression syst= ems.  We are finishing up the engine compartment of my XL-RG and trying= to make a decision on a system.
Has anyone installed one?
What kind? Halon or other?
Manual or automatic?
What CU. FT ?
>From Who and about how much??
Thanks
Steve


















 --part1_3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 06:03:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:03:23 +0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? In-Reply-To: <3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd@aol.com> References: <3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd@aol.com> Message-ID: <7918380250.20030514130323@yahoo.com.au> Hi PVTPIL8, Wednesday, May 14, 2003, 12:14:53 PM, you wrote: Pac> I am looking for some insight on fire suppression systems. We are finishing Pac> up the engine compartment of my XL-RG and trying to make a decision on a Pac> system. Pac> Has anyone installed one? Pac> What kind? Halon or other? Pac> Manual or automatic? Pac> What CU. FT ? Pac> From Who and about how much?? Pac> Thanks Pac> Steve I have a halon fire bottle mounted in the nose area. A saftey pin must be removed before striking a large knob on the inst panel, this will then discharge ALL the contents of the bottle via aluminium (aluminum) tubing to the engine compartment. I got the complete setup from AS. 'Phoenix' seems to ring a bell. only problem.....can't test it without dumping the halon!! .....steve 173 rge / franklin/ mt -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 06:19:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:19:22 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Message-ID: The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along side the trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling on the torque tube ... but I found a better way. I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube mounts to ... it works great. The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the pilot side, with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. -----Original Message----- From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? John Dortch N83AD _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 07:03:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 23:03:21 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030513230157.02929a40@pop.charter.net> At 11:19 PM 5/13/03 -0600, you wrote: >I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the >ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped >it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube >mounts to ... it works great. Thank you Tom, that's brilliant. Absolutely simple, flexible (no pun intended) inexpensive and easy to install. From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 09:03:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 04:03:12 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? Message-ID: <38.390ffb3f.2bf35240@aol.com> --part1_38.390ffb3f.2bf35240_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember finding out about a really neat company for Fire suppression equipment right after Bill Huene lost his bird. "Fire Service Plus, the Home of Fire Aid 2000." Sounded like a pretty neat idea from the front page on their site, lots of awards for their product, manufactured for the Oil and Fuel industry. I haven't really looked into this product yet as I am far from finished, but kept this info for later reference. http://www.ph7technology.com/ --part1_38.390ffb3f.2bf35240_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember finding out about a rea= lly neat company for Fire suppression equipment right after Bill Huene lost=20= his bird. "Fire Service Plus, the Home of Fire Aid 2000." Sounded like a pre= tty neat idea from the front page on their site, lots of awards for their pr= oduct, manufactured for the Oil and Fuel industry. I haven't really looked i= nto this product yet as I am far from finished, but kept this info for later= reference.

http://www.ph7technology.com/ --part1_38.390ffb3f.2bf35240_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 13:45:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:45:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? References: <3c.2f88ace1.2bf31cbd@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201c31a16$a4b601e0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C319F5.1D042A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PVTPIL8@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 12:14 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? Has anyone installed one? I did. What kind?=20 Central system with 1 dump in the engine compartment, 1 dump by the = sump tank, and one dump in the nose near the batteries.I do have = external fresh air for the pilot Halon or other?=20 Definately Halon (See Aviation Consumer reccomendations) Manual or automatic? Manual Big panic button on the panel with a saftey pin. What CU. FT ? I think it was 9 lbs. From Who and about how much?? > $500, Phoenix Fire Supression Systems Wayne Owens ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C319F5.1D042A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PVTPIL8@aol.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 = 12:14=20 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire = Suppression=20 Systems ??

Has anyone installed one?
 
I did.

What kind? 
 Central system with 1 dump in = the engine=20 compartment, 1 dump by the sump tank, and one dump in the nose near = the=20 batteries.I do have external = fresh=20 air  for the pilot
 
 Halon or=20 other?
 
Definately=20 Halon  (See Aviation Consumer = reccomendations)
Manual or=20 automatic?
 
 Manual   Big panic button on the panel with a = saftey=20 pin.

What CU. FT ?
 
 I think it=20 was 9 lbs.
From Who and about how much??
 
 > $500,=20 Phoenix Fire Supression Systems
Wayne=20 = Owens














<= /DIV>
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C319F5.1D042A40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 14:06:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:06:40 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? Message-ID: I looked at the product and it does not seem to be applicable for A/C on board use. It's not appropriate for electrical fires and it is water based. Although it sounds very effective, the water base would seem to be a problem for both storage and use. -jerry Milehitaz@aol.com Sent by: To: reflector@tvbf.org reflector-admin@t cc: vbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? 05/14/03 04:03 AM Please respond to reflector I remember finding out about a really neat company for Fire suppression equipment right after Bill Huene lost his bird. "Fire Service Plus, the Home of Fire Aid 2000." Sounded like a pretty neat idea from the front page on their site, lots of awards for their product, manufactured for the Oil and Fuel industry. I haven't really looked into this product yet as I am far from finished, but kept this info for later reference. http://www.ph7technology.com/ From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 14:18:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 7:18:52 CST Subject: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights? Message-ID: <200305141318.h4EDIvvh018322@dax.awpi.com> Bob, How are these lights working out for you. Are they bright enough to read for example in the back seats but not too bright to distact the pilot? Thanks.. On Tue, 13 May 2003 19:29:30 -0400 "Bob Kuc" wrote: > Re: REFLECTOR:Interior reading lights?After doing a little research, > I have two of these installed in the overhead purccashed from ACS > MINIATURE EYEBALL COCKPIT LIGHTS > P/N 11-07800 $12.500 From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 16:33:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Doug Kanczuzewski) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 08:33:35 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c31a2e$2ed16b00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Anybody hear where BMA is on delivering the auto pilot CPU? From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 17:35:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:35:53 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Message-ID: The same place they were at one month ago, and one month before that, and one monbth before that ... "Just one month away!" -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kanczuzewski [mailto:doug@customstudio.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:34 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Anybody hear where BMA is on delivering the auto pilot CPU? _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 18:00:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Royer) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:00:12 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent -- SOLVED References: Message-ID: <001b01c31a3a$492e43e0$6d821f43@dr> If you have your oil temperature probe where I think that you have it, your are NOT measuring the oil temperature at all. I think that you are simply measuring the temperature or the engine block. The space behind the plug furthest from the prop.(the "stronger" spring) will contain oil only then the main oil bypass value is open. I have examined this plate off of the engine, and I now understand how it works. There are three compartments and two separate pressure relief valves. The central compartment is where the oil from the oil pump enters, and the oil normally flows out of this compartment to the external oil cooler/ filter circuit. The oil then returns to the compartment nearest to the prop from which it flows into the oil galleries in the engine. This is also the compartment which contains the tapped hole which led to the line to the old style fuel pump. This compartment will be accessed by an oil temperature probe placed in the plug holding the weaker spring ( the plug nearest the prop). This is clearly where the oil temperature should be measured. Now, the pressure relief valves. The weaker springed value nearest the prop( think of it as a plugged oil filter relief valve) is between the central compartment and the compartment nearest the prop. It opens when there is too much resistance in the external oil circuit and it simply shunts the oil directly from the oil pump to the engine oil galleries. Not good for cooling, but it is designed to save the engine in case of a plugged external oil circuit. Velocities tend to have too much flow resistance in the oil line to the nose cooler which tends to partially open this valve leading to cooling problems. This is why PZL has a stronger spring for this valve and why 5/8 oil lines may be necessary. Now the valve with the stronger spring fartherest from the prop. It connects the central compartment to the third compartment in the plate which is the one furtherest from the prop. This third compartment leads directly back into the engine oil pan. This valve is normally set at about 90 psi. It is designed to protect the gaskets and other things in the engine from excessive oil pressures during cold startups etc. Obviously, this valve will be closed during normal operations and so there should normally not be any oil in this third compartment. Unfortunately this is the compartment accessed by an oil temperature sensor mounted in the plug holding the "stronger" spring. The fix is simple, the two plugs holding the springs are interchangeable. Interchange them and you should get reading very close to that you had in the old position which should be the correct readings. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Yu" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 8:14 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent -- SOLVED SNIP > > Another thing I noticed is that I now get ~170 degree oil temperature with > 2500RPM/24"MP. This is 50 degrees lower than what I had before. The > difference is that I used to install oil temp probe on a tee in between oil > bypass group and old style fuel pump and now I installed it in the plug > where the "stronger" spring is installed. I did see that the oil temp > increased to more 190 degree while taxiing back to hangar after landed. > SNIP From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 18:40:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:40:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot References: Message-ID: <003001c31a3f$ed1bf4c0$a66d9a44@mshome.net> Tim and all ... A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve judgment until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is working "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along side the > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling on the > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube > mounts to ... it works great. > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the pilot side, > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > John Dortch N83AD > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 18:45:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:45:00 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot References: <002501c31a2e$2ed16b00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <003a01c31a40$8b007d00$a66d9a44@mshome.net> Greg Richter and one of his associates from BMA are planning their second "autopilot trials" visit to Velocity next week. Velocity has offered the XL demo aircraft to be used as a test bed. The first trials occurred on May 1-3 ...the results of which were "more code work is needed". Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kanczuzewski" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:33 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > Anybody hear where BMA is on delivering the auto pilot CPU? > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 18:56:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Robin Ream) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:56:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot References: <002501c31a2e$2ed16b00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> <003a01c31a40$8b007d00$a66d9a44@mshome.net> Message-ID: <005301c31a42$2c631300$9f7cce18@cj209446d> Is it likely that there will be variations between the XL and standard as far as this BMA autopilot is concerned? Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "S Baker" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 12:45 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > Greg Richter and one of his associates from BMA are planning their second > "autopilot trials" visit to Velocity next week. Velocity has offered the XL > demo aircraft to be used as a test bed. The first trials occurred on May > 1-3 ...the results of which were "more code work is needed". > Scott B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Kanczuzewski" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 11:33 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Anybody hear where BMA is on delivering the auto pilot CPU? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 19:06:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:06:53 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31A43.996BDB12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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A little clarification, when I referred to "stronger" spring, I meant a "stronger" spring for Velocity that is in the plug close to prop. Your info confirmed that I installed in the right plug. But I did see ~50 degrees oil temp drop compared with what I saw before. Thanks, Jay N86yu Velocity RGE From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 23:28:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jay Yu) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:28:57 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sensor Mounting In-Reply-To: <66A61FE8-85B3-11D7-8DA2-000393BC26D4@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Thanks Wayne. Sorry for not making it more clear. When I mentioned that I installed the sensor at the bottom of the engine, I meant that the location of oil pressure sensor is at the bottom but not installed on the engine. In fact, I have a flexible hose connected to the sensor. Jay N86YU Velocity RGE A word of caution here, Mounting a fuel or oil pressure sensor on an engine is not recommended. The reason that the sensors are remote mounted to the firewall or engine mount via a flexible hose is to avoid a mechanical failure of the sensor due to engine vibration. Many DAR's will fail a directly mounted sensor, and why take the chance of it breaking...? Fly Safe, Wayne Lanza From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 23:47:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:47:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. References: <01df01c318cd$e1fca8a0$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <3EC2C772.2000803@tnstaafl.net> Not to diminish Lawrence's idea but the factory now supplies a stick tube that has a C bracket welded to the stick. The C wraps around the torque tube and supports the stick from both sides. The bolt goes through the C bracket, torque tube and stick tube. Scott Greg Poole wrote: > Laurence, > > Your idea has got my vote - wonderful!! > > Greg in Sydney. > SE RG Down Under > Greg Poole > POOLED RESOURCES PTY LTD > Ph: 9899 2737 Fax: 9899 2726 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laurence Coen > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 1:37 AM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. > > This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt > so I reduced the resolution. > > Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a > previous thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own > solution. It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on > hand to do it. It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and > some flox. All you need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers > to the stick and torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes > and the washers with a nice thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove > the bolts and reassemble. You're done. > > Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two > pictures instead. > > Larry Coen > SE RG Franklin > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 23:49:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:49:58 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent -- SOLVED References: Message-ID: <3EC2C816.5020707@tnstaafl.net> You probably want to adjust that down to 4.5", unless you have stock in a vacume driven instrument company. Scott Jay Yu wrote: > Not sure if this is useful info but welcome any/all comments. > > I just came back from a test flight. I saw fuel pressure at 7~8 psi in > flight and ~6 psi on the ground. I did NOT buy a new sensor. What I did was > I reinstalled the sensor at the bottom of the engine in the path of fresh > air flow from my lower cowl intake air scoop (The sensor used to be on > firewall about 4" away from exhaust pipe but covered with reflective heat > shield). > > Another thing I noticed is that I now get ~170 degree oil temperature with > 2500RPM/24"MP. This is 50 degrees lower than what I had before. The > difference is that I used to install oil temp probe on a tee in between oil > bypass group and old style fuel pump and now I installed it in the plug > where the "stronger" spring is installed. I did see that the oil temp > increased to more 190 degree while taxiing back to hangar after landed. > > The third thing is that I got ~5" vacuum at 2500 rpm. Apparently the > direction change of the vacuum pump did not screw up. > > Jay Yu > Velocity RGE > N86YU > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > > > That's not too good. If it had been parked for 5-10 years, MAYBE!! I'd say > JPI needs to provide higher quality sensors. > > On the other hand, let me put in a good word for NAVAID. I bought my Navaid > autopilot three years ago (too soon), but in any event, I just started > flying my Velocity last month. I have 29 hours flown and got around to > trouble shooting the fact that the Navaid would not lock onto GPS course, > but would track a heading. I called Navaid and he said he would ship me a > new GPS Coupler to fix the problem. No hassle!!! NOW THAT IS CUSTOMER > SERVICE!!! > > Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay Yu" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:54 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:FW: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent > > > >>FYI. >> >>(I can't believe this! Mine was sitting since last August.) >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JPI Tech Support [mailto:jpitech@pacbell.net] >>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 11:30 AM >>To: Jay Yu >>Subject: Re: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent >> >> >>This is a follow-up from our phone conversation of earlier this morning. > > We > >>have reviewed you request and still think that replacing the Fuel Pressure >>sensor is the best resolution. The Part number of the Fuel Pressure sensor >>is 3060-17 and sells for $100.00 plus shipping. >> >>The main issue is in the sensor where you have a wiper are that after >>sitting for a pro-longed period will create an indentation in the pickup > > in > >>the sensor and would only read at lower temperature (or pressure), then > > when > >>the engine gets warmer, the wiper arm in the sensor would get stuck in > > this > >>depression and would not read higher. Another thing is to be certain not > > to > >>hard mount the sensor. It must be mounted on a flexible tube about six (6) >>inches in length (AEROQUIP 303 line) to protect the sensor from engine >>vibration which can damage the sensor's wiper arm and sending unit. >> >>Lastly, to check the instrument you simply disconnect the harness wire and >>the instrument head should read a high reading caused by an open circuit, >>then connect the wires and the reading on the instrument will read lower > > due > >>to the short. >> >>We hope this helps. >> >>Regards, >> >>JPI Product Support >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jay Yu" >>To: >>Cc: >>Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:10 PM >>Subject: Fuel Pressure Reads zero or low/intermittent >> >> >> >>>Hi, >>> >>>I have a SlimLine fuel pressure instrument. Recently I saw 0 pressure >> >>right >> >>>after engine runup (before take off). It seems that when the engine is >> >>cold, >> >>>the reading is ok. Also when I removed the cowls, the reading was ok >> > too. > >>>This seems to suggest that when the engine compartment is warm/hot. I >> > have > >>a >> >>>reading problem. Does this make sense? >>> >>>This evening I measured the resistence between the two wires on the >>>connector on the instrument side. I noticed that when there was no fuel >>>pressure, the reading was 7.5 Ohms. When I turned on electric boost >> > pump, > >>>the reading was 29.8 Ohms (I can normally get about 5 - 6 psi when the >>>electric boost pump is on). I also plugged the fuel pressure connector >> > to > >>>oil pressure instrument. I noticed that the reading was 0 when there was >> >>no >> >>>fuel pressure and the reading was 15 psi when I turned on electric boost >>>pump. >>> >>>Based on these observations, can you tell if my fuel pressure instrument >> >>is >> >>>bad or the fuel pressure sender is bad? If it's the fuel pressure >> > sender, > >>>could it be the temperature in engine compartment causing this problem? >> >>Also >> >>>can you give me some technical specification on the fuel pressure sender >>>such as the relationship between resistence and psi? On your web site I >> >>saw >> >>>the correlation between oil pressure and resistence such as 0 Ohm for 0 >> >>psi, >> >>>89 Ohms for 50 psi and 630 psi for open circuit. >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Jinquan Yu >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 23:56:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:56:10 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot References: Message-ID: <3EC2C98A.4050401@tnstaafl.net> My limited experience of doing things a "new" way is that "new" ways have the potential to suprise you in the darndest ways. I agree with you that it sounds like a good idea but flight testing is the real judge. And many hours of flight testing the ultimate judge. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you want? > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but the actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all control cables, the ends must be secure. > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible cables? > > -----Original Message----- > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Tim and all ... > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve judgment > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is working > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > Best regards, > Scott B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along side the > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling on the > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the pilot side, > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 14 23:58:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:58:56 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. References: <01df01c318cd$e1fca8a0$5126fea9@greg> <3EC2C772.2000803@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <008601c31a6c$69154e60$5126fea9@greg> Kinda like the idea of a lubricated flat contact surface on both sides of the stick and am going to add the C bracket and Lawrence's washer idea - call it overkill or call it good engineering. Maybe the original would not break but ultimately it would have been a wear point (?) and I hate slop at the best of times - whether it be for breakfast or in aircraft control systems...... Greg in Sydney. From: "Scott Derrick" > Not to diminish Lawrence's idea but the factory now supplies a stick > tube that has a C bracket welded to the stick. The C wraps around the > torque tube and supports the stick from both sides. The bolt goes > through the C bracket, torque tube and stick tube. > > Scott > > > Greg Poole wrote: > > Laurence, > > > > Your idea has got my vote - wonderful!! > > > > Greg in Sydney. > > SE RG Down Under > > Greg Poole > > POOLED RESOURCES PTY LTD > > Ph: 9899 2737 Fax: 9899 2726 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Laurence Coen > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 1:37 AM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick to torque tube slop. > > > > This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt > > so I reduced the resolution. > > > > Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a > > previous thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own > > solution. It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on > > hand to do it. It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and > > some flox. All you need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers > > to the stick and torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes > > and the washers with a nice thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove > > the bolts and reassemble. You're done. > > > > Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two > > pictures instead. > > > > Larry Coen > > SE RG Franklin > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 00:14:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:14:21 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Message-ID: "Old Ways" also need the same amount of testing ... since "Old Ways" in experimental aircraft are really not "Old Ways". Aside from components made at the factory or jigged to exacting standards, all things in experimental aircraft are new to a degree. Just take a look at completed aircraft and you'll see that they're all "one of a kind". You'll also find that most experimental aircraft factories do not have ANY R&D departments. I'd venture to say that many innovations have come from customers. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:56 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot My limited experience of doing things a "new" way is that "new" ways have the potential to suprise you in the darndest ways. I agree with you that it sounds like a good idea but flight testing is the real judge. And many hours of flight testing the ultimate judge. Scott Tom Martino wrote: > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you want? > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but the actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all control cables, the ends must be secure. > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible cables? > > -----Original Message----- > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Tim and all ... > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve judgment > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is working > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > Best regards, > Scott B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along side the > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling on the > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the pilot side, > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 00:30:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:30:43 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Testing times... References: Message-ID: <00a301c31a70$d6d5c8e0$5126fea9@greg> Guys, Enough! You are both right! Let's not get in a fickle pickle before the Worldwide Velocity community! Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:14 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > "Old Ways" also need the same amount of testing ... since "Old Ways" in > experimental aircraft are really not "Old Ways". Aside from components > made at the factory or jigged to exacting standards, all things in > experimental aircraft are new to a degree. > > Just take a look at completed aircraft and you'll see that they're all > "one of a kind". > > You'll also find that most experimental aircraft factories do not have > ANY R&D departments. I'd venture to say that many innovations have come > from customers. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:56 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > My limited experience of doing things a "new" way is that "new" ways > have the potential to suprise you in the darndest ways. > > I agree with you that it sounds like a good idea but flight testing is > the real judge. And many hours of flight testing the ultimate judge. > > Scott > > Tom Martino wrote: > > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are > identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with > ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you > want? > > > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but the > actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all control > cables, the ends must be secure. > > > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible > cables? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > > Tim and all ... > > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve > judgment > > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is > working > > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > > Best regards, > > Scott B. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tom Martino" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along > side the > > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling > on the > > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar > to the > > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I > simply looped > > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch > control tube > > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the > pilot side, > > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot > servos in a > > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 00:59:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:59:00 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot References: Message-ID: <001101c31a74$ca34eae0$5ca5d344@mshome.net> Let me say first, that I am not an expert on this. I have observed (amongst several different autopilot servo manufacturers and installations) situations where "slack" in the control system often affected the proper working of the autopilot operation. The push-pull cable system has more slack than a rigid rod arm. This might - or might not - affect the autopilot. When Greg Richter was working on the Blue Mountain pitch servo that is installed in the factory Velocity, he noticed free movement in the servo arm that was darn near imperceptible to me. I would have thought it to be of little consequence, however he said it (the "slop") was too much. Anyway, this is the basis of my concern. Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you want? > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but the actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all control cables, the ends must be secure. > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible cables? > > -----Original Message----- > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Tim and all ... > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve judgment > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is working > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > Best regards, > Scott B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along side the > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling on the > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the pilot side, > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 01:21:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (N.V.Frederick) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:21:31 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Message-ID: <001601c31a77$ef7d42e0$7055fea9@bldrdoc.gov> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C31A45.A474F5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Reflectorites Was that stolen demonstrator ever recovered? Just very curious. nolan ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C31A45.A474F5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Reflectorites
    Was that stolen = demonstrator=20 ever recovered?
Just very curious.
nolan
 
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C31A45.A474F5E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 01:16:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:16:37 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot References: <002501c31a2e$2ed16b00$2802a8c0@WorkGroup> <003a01c31a40$8b007d00$a66d9a44@mshome.net> <005301c31a42$2c631300$9f7cce18@cj209446d> Message-ID: <003101c31a77$40406be0$5ca5d344@mshome.net> Good question. Since I'm just the "taxi driver" during all of this (the autopilot trials), I'll ask Greg Richter. My guess is that the system will be designed the same for both the XL and the Std. We know that STC'd autopilots sometimes have trouble adjusting to the sensitivity of the Velocity control forces. Velocity stands to benefit by allowing BMA to do their AP development work in a Velocity. When the testing is finished, we (all Velocity owners with BMA autopilot sub-systems) will be "good to go". Other aircraft models, such as the RV's, may have some more "fine tuning" to do. Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Ream" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:56 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > Is it likely that there will be variations between the XL and standard as > far as this BMA autopilot is concerned? > > Robin From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 01:17:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:17:09 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG References: <001601c31a77$ef7d42e0$7055fea9@bldrdoc.gov> Message-ID: <003b01c31a77$53458040$5ca5d344@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C31A55.CC0AAD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not yet. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: N.V.Frederick=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:21 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Hey Reflectorites Was that stolen demonstrator ever recovered? Just very curious. nolan ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C31A55.CC0AAD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not yet.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 N.V.Frederick
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 = 8:21=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen = XLRG

Hey Reflectorites
    Was that stolen = demonstrator=20 ever recovered?
Just very curious.
nolan
 
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C31A55.CC0AAD60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 01:31:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:31:29 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Message-ID: Good point! I know in one of my other planes, there was some slop and the "brain" simply compensated for it by asking for more control in one direction or another ... definitely NOT what you want if you can help it. I will keep an eye on that aspect and report back! -----Original Message----- From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:59 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot Let me say first, that I am not an expert on this. I have observed (amongst several different autopilot servo manufacturers and installations) situations where "slack" in the control system often affected the proper working of the autopilot operation. The push-pull cable system has more slack than a rigid rod arm. This might - or might not - affect the autopilot. When Greg Richter was working on the Blue Mountain pitch servo that is installed in the factory Velocity, he noticed free movement in the servo arm that was darn near imperceptible to me. I would have thought it to be of little consequence, however he said it (the "slop") was too much. Anyway, this is the basis of my concern. Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you want? > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but the actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all control cables, the ends must be secure. > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible cables? > > -----Original Message----- > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Tim and all ... > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve judgment > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is working > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > Best regards, > Scott B. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along side the > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling on the > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar to the > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I simply looped > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch control tube > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the pilot side, > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot servos in a > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 01:33:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:33:35 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Testing times... Message-ID: Hello Greg in Sydney ... Spirited discussion is the American way! :) -----Original Message----- From: Greg Poole [mailto:gpoole@zeta.org.au] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:31 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Testing times... Guys, Enough! You are both right! Let's not get in a fickle pickle before the Worldwide Velocity community! Greg in Sydney. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:14 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > "Old Ways" also need the same amount of testing ... since "Old Ways" in > experimental aircraft are really not "Old Ways". Aside from components > made at the factory or jigged to exacting standards, all things in > experimental aircraft are new to a degree. > > Just take a look at completed aircraft and you'll see that they're all > "one of a kind". > > You'll also find that most experimental aircraft factories do not have > ANY R&D departments. I'd venture to say that many innovations have come > from customers. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:56 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > My limited experience of doing things a "new" way is that "new" ways > have the potential to suprise you in the darndest ways. > > I agree with you that it sounds like a good idea but flight testing is > the real judge. And many hours of flight testing the ultimate judge. > > Scott > > Tom Martino wrote: > > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are > identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with > ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you > want? > > > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but the > actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all control > cables, the ends must be secure. > > > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible > cables? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > > Tim and all ... > > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve > judgment > > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is > working > > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > > Best regards, > > Scott B. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tom Martino" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along > side the > > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling > on the > > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar > to the > > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I > simply looped > > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch > control tube > > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the > pilot side, > > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot > servos in a > > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 01:46:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Greg Poole) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:46:40 +1000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Testing times... References: Message-ID: <00b001c31a7b$72c33080$5126fea9@greg> Hey Tom, ....if you know Aussies, you'll know just how much we really enjoy spirited discussion and jibes - but we remain mates during and afterwards! Too many times I witness posts on this and other lists where the "American way" often (hear me; NOT always!) results in neither party conceding anything and then degenerating into trying to "nuke" each other in public - NOT a pretty thing to witness! ...so I thought I would get in early to prevent hostilities leading to a drawn out Iraq affair and an eventual Mexican Stand Off ....cause I enjoy hearing what you blokes sort out on the Reflector, and, sob! ...I want you all to hang around to party! (...as long as we all retire by 2200 hrs!). Best from Down Under! Greg. PS: Welcome news from your economy - seems to be starting to redress the long term gross disparity between the Aussie $ and the $US that has prevented further Velocity kit sales in Australia! PSS: (Big Hint; buy rentable land and premises in Australia now if you want to make big dollars). > Hello Greg in Sydney ... Spirited discussion is the American way! :) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Poole [mailto:gpoole@zeta.org.au] > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 5:31 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Testing times... > > Guys, > > Enough! You are both right! Let's not get in a fickle pickle before the > Worldwide Velocity community! > > Greg in Sydney. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Martino" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:14 AM > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > "Old Ways" also need the same amount of testing ... since "Old Ways" > in > > experimental aircraft are really not "Old Ways". Aside from components > > made at the factory or jigged to exacting standards, all things in > > experimental aircraft are new to a degree. > > > > Just take a look at completed aircraft and you'll see that they're all > > "one of a kind". > > > > You'll also find that most experimental aircraft factories do not have > > ANY R&D departments. I'd venture to say that many innovations have > come > > from customers. > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Scott Derrick [mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 4:56 PM > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > My limited experience of doing things a "new" way is that "new" ways > > have the potential to suprise you in the darndest ways. > > > > I agree with you that it sounds like a good idea but flight testing is > > the real judge. And many hours of flight testing the ultimate judge. > > > > Scott > > > > Tom Martino wrote: > > > Flexible rods have been used in many aircraft for control. They are > > identical to the ones used in the velocity. The servos move it with > > ease. It actuates the elevator. Short of that ... what else do you > > want? > > > > > > Obviously it will only be as good as the auto pilot system ... but > the > > actual movement is the same as any flight control. As with all > control > > cables, the ends must be secure. > > > > > > I am not sure exactly what is "unsure" about the use of flexible > > cables? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: S Baker [mailto:sbakr@bellsouth.net] > > > Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 11:40 AM > > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > > Cc: > > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim and all ... > > > A push-pull cable may seem like a good idea, but I would reserve > > judgment > > > until it has been flight tested and confirmed that everything is > > working > > > "according to plan". The rigid rod arm design, we know, works. > > > Best regards, > > > Scott B. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Tom Martino" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:19 AM > > > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > > > > The pitch servo can be mounted on the top of the canard (along > > side the > > > > trim actuator). Many use a push rod that activates a coupling > > on the > > > > torque tube ... but I found a better way. > > > > > > > > I simply ordered a three foot push-pull control cable (similar > > to the > > > > ones that we use on our ailerons) ... and hooked it up. I > > simply looped > > > > it around the canard on onto the same place that the pitch > > control tube > > > > mounts to ... it works great. > > > > > > > > The roll servo can go aft of the keel on the floor on the > > pilot side, > > > > with a push rod hooking to the aileron bellcrank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: -LD [mailto:jldortch@prp.org] > > > > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 1:24 PM > > > > To: reflector@tvbf.org > > > > Subject: REFLECTOR:BMA Autopilot > > > > > > > > Has anyone installed the Blue Mountain Avionics autopilot > > servos in a > > > > standard RG? If so, where and got any pix? > > > > > > > > John Dortch N83AD > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To change your email address, visit > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 14:57:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dale W. Thomas) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Testing times... off topic a bit... In-Reply-To: <00b001c31a7b$72c33080$5126fea9@greg> References: <00b001c31a7b$72c33080$5126fea9@greg> Message-ID: <1389.216.28.64.19.1053007067.squirrel@email.web2e.com> > > ....if you know Aussies, .... > "American way" .... drawn out Iraq affair ... Mexican Stand Off .... They call America the 'melting pot', and I guess this supports that conclusion. Here we have an Aussie talking about the American way, Iraq and a Mexican stand off, all in the same message. Truly an international endeavour.... But the important thing is that debates like these make us ALL think. And when we think we learn. And when we learn about these issues, we enable everybody to make their planes just a little better and safer. Dale From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 15:44:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:44:37 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG In-Reply-To: <003b01c31a77$53458040$5ca5d344@mshome.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ZpwgxRERP/ifi0gryP6RWw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Not yet??? Yet, as in seemingly imminent? . Hmmmm, Velocity Detective Agency (even though y'all have always seem to know what really happened). Good luck. Heading out to the Southwest Regional Fly-in (SWRFI)in a couple of hours. Sorry that Velocity is not attending (I know, can't make them all). I have at least one potential buyer (looking at Cozy and Velo) Vans, Lancair and Aircrafts Spruce are among the approximate 100 Vendors scheduled. Hopefully the new venue (New Braunfels, TX, in the beautiful Texas Hill Country) will prove wise and the show will earn the reputation as being a must attend. You could not have it in a better location. All the best. Chris Chris Barber Houston www.LoneStarVelocity.com Velocity SE/FG w/yoke option \\ -\ \> [| \ \ [| }=|)))))))))))))> / / [| -/ /> [| // -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of S Baker Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 7:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Not yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: N.V.Frederick To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:21 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Hey Reflectorites Was that stolen demonstrator ever recovered? Just very curious. nolan --Boundary_(ID_ZpwgxRERP/ifi0gryP6RWw) Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Not yet??? Yet, as in seemingly imminent? <g>.  Hmmmm, Velocity Detective Agency (even though y'all have always seem to know what really happened).  Good luck.
 
Heading out to the Southwest Regional Fly-in  (SWRFI)in a couple of hours.  Sorry that Velocity is not attending (I know, can't make them all). I have at least one potential buyer (looking at Cozy and Velo)  Vans, Lancair and Aircrafts Spruce are among the approximate 100 Vendors scheduled.  Hopefully the new venue (New Braunfels, TX, in the beautiful Texas Hill Country) will prove wise and the show will earn the reputation as being a must attend.  You could not have it in a better location.
 
All the best.
 
Chris



Chris Barber
Houston
www.LoneStarVelocity.com
Velocity SE/FG w/yoke option

    \\                    
     -\ \>       [|       
        \   \     [|
    }=|)))))))))))))>        
        /   /     [|
     -/ />       [|            
    //                            

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of S Baker
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 7:17 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG

Not yet.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:21 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG

Hey Reflectorites
    Was that stolen demonstrator ever recovered?
Just very curious.
nolan
 
--Boundary_(ID_ZpwgxRERP/ifi0gryP6RWw)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 15:49:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:49:14 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Message-ID: <167.204d35da.2bf502ea@aol.com> --part1_167.204d35da.2bf502ea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? Checked Rich out in his Velo about a year ago. Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot --part1_167.204d35da.2bf502ea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have= n't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to the promiss= land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? Checked Rich out in h= is Velo about a year ago.
Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot --part1_167.204d35da.2bf502ea_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 16:16:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:16:50 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG In-Reply-To: <167.204d35da.2bf502ea@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Lsu1As3/HiEkRqJUJncI8w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Donno, but I will be looking for Mel and Rich....and keeping an eye out for the missing XL Chris -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:49 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? Checked Rich out in his Velo about a year ago. Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot --Boundary_(ID_Lsu1As3/HiEkRqJUJncI8w) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Donno, but I will be looking for Mel and Rich....and keeping an eye out for the missing XL
 
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of MMurp16900@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:49 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG

Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? Checked Rich out in his Velo about a year ago.
Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot
--Boundary_(ID_Lsu1As3/HiEkRqJUJncI8w)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 17:07:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Robin Ream) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:07:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG References: <167.204d35da.2bf502ea@aol.com> Message-ID: <001301c31afc$20b48c90$9f7cce18@cj209446d> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C31AD2.378BF7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mel is still at BAZ and has a new hangar with a great big motor home in = it, right beside the Velocity :-) Haven't heard what he will build = next, but he doesn't ever seem to sit still for long. Robin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MMurp16900@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to = the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? = Checked Rich out in his Velo about a year ago.=20 Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C31AD2.378BF7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mel is still at BAZ and has a new hangar with a great big motor = home in it,=20 right beside the Velocity :-)    Haven't heard what he will = build=20 next, but he doesn't ever seem to sit still for long.
 
Robin
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MMurp16900@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 = 9:49=20 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The = Stolen=20 XLRG

Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent = it south to=20 the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? = Checked Rich=20 out in his Velo about a year ago.
Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global = Check=20 Out Pilot ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C31AD2.378BF7C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 15 17:42:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:42:39 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG In-Reply-To: <001301c31afc$20b48c90$9f7cce18@cj209446d> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_FCPv+i1EVc3dek03uYWuEw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT For y'all that may be going to SWRFI....like you Robin, I will be directing planes to parking for EAA Chapter 12 Friday morning between 10:00 am and 12:00 pm. My cell phone is 832-818-CELL (2355). Give me a call and let me know where you and the Velo's are. I'm not sure how much time SWMBO will give me to play ....but at least I am getting to go. I'm out the door.....have a swell weekend. All the best, Chris -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Robin Ream Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:08 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Mel is still at BAZ and has a new hangar with a great big motor home in it, right beside the Velocity :-) Haven't heard what he will build next, but he doesn't ever seem to sit still for long. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: MMurp16900@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? Checked Rich out in his Velo about a year ago. Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot --Boundary_(ID_FCPv+i1EVc3dek03uYWuEw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
For y'all that may be going to SWRFI....like you Robin, I will be directing planes to parking for EAA Chapter 12 Friday morning between 10:00 am and 12:00 pm.  My cell phone is 832-818-CELL (2355).  Give me a call and let me know where you and the Velo's are.
 
I'm not sure how much time SWMBO will give me to play <g>....but at least I am getting to go.
 
I'm out the door.....have a swell weekend.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Robin Ream
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:08 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG

Mel is still at BAZ and has a new hangar with a great big motor home in it, right beside the Velocity :-)    Haven't heard what he will build next, but he doesn't ever seem to sit still for long.
 
Robin
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:The Stolen XLRG

Haven't seen the stolen Velocity yet, guess someone sent it south to the promiss land. Is Mel still at New Braunsfels? how about Rich? Checked Rich out in his Velo about a year ago.
Steve Murphree CFI,II,MEI Global Check Out Pilot
--Boundary_(ID_FCPv+i1EVc3dek03uYWuEw)-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 16 16:42:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:42:58 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Release (?) Cleaner Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31BC1.D3ADE0F0 Content-Type: text/plain All, Is the product for cleaning aircraft surfaces to prevent bug-sticking called "Release"? Or, what is the correct name, does it work and a good source? Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Lynn Gallup Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 7:18 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick-Fix Ideas Larry, Great "StickFix" idea and pictures. If the flox holds up, and I think it should, it will be a better idea than I came up with. I bought a chunk of 3/4 inch I.D. steel "schedule tubing" (means slip-fit with 3/4 inch O.D. tubing). From this I cut two, one-inch lengths. These I split lengthwise with a hacksaw and drilled for the bolt. I now had four steel reinforcing "washers" to put on both sides of the stick tube and the torque tube. I filed a flat surface on the mating inside pieces. So far, so good. Regards, Lynn ====================== At 10:37 AM 5/12/2003 Monday, you wrote: This is a second try. My pictures were too big in the first attempt so I reduced the resolution. Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a previous thread. My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution. It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it. It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox mixture. Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble. You're done. Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two pictures instead. Larry Coen SE RG Franklin _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31BC1.D3ADE0F0 Content-Type: text/html
All,
 
Is the product for cleaning aircraft surfaces to prevent bug-sticking called "Release"?  Or, what is the correct name, does it work and a good source?
 
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Lynn Gallup
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 7:18 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Stick-Fix Ideas

Larry,
Great "StickFix" idea and pictures.
If the flox holds up, and I think it should, it will be a better idea than I came up with.

I bought a chunk of 3/4 inch I.D. steel "schedule tubing" (means slip-fit with 3/4 inch O.D. tubing). From this I cut two, one-inch lengths. These I split lengthwise with a hacksaw and drilled for the bolt. I now had four steel reinforcing "washers" to put on both sides of the stick tube and the torque tube. I filed a flat surface on the mating inside pieces. So far, so good.

Regards,
Lynn
======================
At 10:37 AM 5/12/2003 Monday, you wrote:
This is a second try.  My pictures were too big in the first attempt so I reduced the resolution.
 
Jim Agnew came up with an elegant solution to this problem in a previous thread.  My lack of machine shop access led to my own solution.  It's cheap easy and everyone already has the stuff on hand to do it.  It requires two wide area washers, Alpha Epoxy and some flox. All you need do is temporarily bolt the wide area washers to the stick and torque tube, fill in the space between the tubes and the washers with a nice thick flox mixture.  Let cure, remove the bolts and reassemble.  You're done.
 
Instead of boring you with another 2,000 words, I've attached two pictures instead.
 
Larry Coen
SE RG Franklin

 



_______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
------_=_NextPart_001_01C31BC1.D3ADE0F0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 16 17:18:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:18:07 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Release (?) Cleaner Message-ID: <119.238fb44b.2bf6693f@cs.com> --part1_119.238fb44b.2bf6693f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is called RejeX. Does anyone know if this product is safe for use on fiberglass aircraft? Steve Bisso --part1_119.238fb44b.2bf6693f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is called RejeX.  Does anyone know if this pro= duct is safe for use on fiberglass aircraft?

Steve Bisso --part1_119.238fb44b.2bf6693f_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 16 19:52:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:52:15 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cleaner Message-ID: I spoke with the RejeX people and they confirmed that Rejex is designed for fiberglass and plexiglass. According to anecdotal comments, the stuff really repels bug splats, etc. I ordered it direct from manufacturer for $19.95 for 16 oz. They say it goes a long ways (I hope it goes further than my $20 did). Corrosion Technologies Corporation P.O. Box 551625 Dallas, TX 75355-1625 (800) 638-7361 www.corrosionx.com Chuck From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 16 20:41:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Strake bottom outside bolt hole covers - A better one Message-ID: <20030516194150.29881.qmail@web41307.mail.yahoo.com> For those of you that are using the rear facing large fiberglass scoop to provide the air outlet on the strake lower outboard bolthole I have found a very nice alternative. I have large hands so I had to make the hole larger to get my hand in so the Velocity supplied cover would not work. At a West Marine store I found some very nice Stainless Louvered Vents in 4 & 5" round sizes (see the following HTTP for picture) for $3.99 each. They are very light and thin so they conform to the strake, about 1/8” high with a beveled edge, and a large number of louvers. I mounted them with four #6 SS ½” sheet metal screws and a ring of RTV on the inside of the vent. They are almost invisible unless you get down and look up under the wing and the cabin airflow is just fine. As a side benefit, the louvers are small enough that they will keep out larger bugs and critters. Happy venting. Jim http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=24823 ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 16 20:46:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Fwd: Strake bottom outside bolt hole covers - A better one UPDATE Message-ID: <20030516194623.69368.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Obviously the LOUVERS must point to the rear! Jim --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:41:50 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Agnew > Subject: Strake bottom outside bolt hole covers - A > better one > To: Velocity Reflector > > For those of you that are using the rear facing large > fiberglass scoop to provide the air outlet on the strake > lower outboard bolthole I have found a very nice > alternative. > > I have large hands so I had to make the hole larger to > get > my hand in so the Velocity supplied cover would not work. > > At a West Marine store I found some very nice Stainless > Louvered Vents in 4 & 5" round sizes (see the following > HTTP for picture) for $3.99 each. They are very light > and > thin so they conform to the strake, about 1/8” high with > a > beveled edge, and a large number of louvers. I mounted > them with four #6 SS ½” sheet metal screws and a ring of > RTV on the inside of the vent. They are almost invisible > unless you get down and look up under the wing and the > cabin airflow is just fine. > > As a side benefit, the louvers are small enough that they > will keep out larger bugs and critters. Happy venting. > > Jim > > http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=24823 > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 00:12:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:12:57 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: Message-ID: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of the air from #4 and put it on #2. I have a STD Rg with the arm pit scoops for engine cooling. Each inside each scoop is a diverter fin, directing some of the air towards the forward cylinder and letting the rest inter the cowling towards towards the rear. There are no other diverting fins inside the lower cowling. The Baffling is the standard factory updraft kit. I silly-coned and added some red baffling tape last summer to all the holes I could see which helped all the cylinders about equally. About a 10 degree drop. Seems like one of the things I could do is cut a bit of the fin off so it lets more air towards the rear of the cowling. Seems like I could also build a fiberglass fin into the lower cowling near the #2 cylinder that would more directly focus the air up through the cylinder. Which should I do first? Or do both together? Any other ideas. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 00:44:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 19:44:15 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <005c01c31c05$0f95de00$882a4ed8@mshome.net> Why not make them adjustable so you can tune the cooling. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: ; Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder > the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right > rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. > > I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl > mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of > the air from #4 and put it on #2. > > I have a STD Rg with the arm pit scoops for engine cooling. Each inside > each scoop is a diverter fin, directing some of the air towards the > forward cylinder and letting the rest inter the cowling towards towards > the rear. > > There are no other diverting fins inside the lower cowling. The Baffling > is the standard factory updraft kit. I silly-coned and added some red > baffling tape last summer to all the holes I could see which helped all > the cylinders about equally. About a 10 degree drop. > > Seems like one of the things I could do is cut a bit of the fin off so > it lets more air towards the rear of the cowling. > > Seems like I could also build a fiberglass fin into the lower cowling > near the #2 cylinder that would more directly focus the air up through > the cylinder. > > Which should I do first? Or do both together? Any other ideas. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 00:51:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:51:50 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> <005c01c31c05$0f95de00$882a4ed8@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3EC57996.2040305@tnstaafl.net> KISS Adjustable as in sliding or rotating usually means multiple pieces and fasteners, which means things can come off. I'm snake bit about shit going through my prop! The fewer pieces and fasteners the better. Adjustable as in solid but trim-able here or there with snips, wilco! Scott Wayne Owens wrote: > Why not make them adjustable so you can tune the cooling. > Wayne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Derrick" > To: ; > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 7:12 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder > > > >>the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right >>rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. >> >>I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl >>mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of >>the air from #4 and put it on #2. >> >>I have a STD Rg with the arm pit scoops for engine cooling. Each inside >>each scoop is a diverter fin, directing some of the air towards the >>forward cylinder and letting the rest inter the cowling towards towards >>the rear. >> >>There are no other diverting fins inside the lower cowling. The Baffling >>is the standard factory updraft kit. I silly-coned and added some red >>baffling tape last summer to all the holes I could see which helped all >>the cylinders about equally. About a 10 degree drop. >> >>Seems like one of the things I could do is cut a bit of the fin off so >>it lets more air towards the rear of the cowling. >> >>Seems like I could also build a fiberglass fin into the lower cowling >>near the #2 cylinder that would more directly focus the air up through >>the cylinder. >> >>Which should I do first? Or do both together? Any other ideas. >> >>Scott >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 02:04:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 09:04:17 +0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder In-Reply-To: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <1988562234.20030517090417@yahoo.com.au> Hi Scott, Are you sure its not incorrect fuel/air mixture to #4 cylinder ?? How do the EGT's compare ?? (partially blocked fuel injector ??) Saturday, May 17, 2003, 7:12:57 AM, you wrote: SD> the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right SD> rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. SD> I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl SD> mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of SD> the air from #4 and put it on #2. -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 04:32:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 23:32:36 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> <005c01c31c05$0f95de00$882a4ed8@mshome.net> <3EC57996.2040305@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <006301c31c24$f68ad580$882a4ed8@mshome.net> Kinda what I had in mind. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 7:51 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder > KISS > > Adjustable as in sliding or rotating usually means multiple pieces and > fasteners, which means things can come off. I'm snake bit about shit > going through my prop! The fewer pieces and fasteners the better. > > Adjustable as in solid but trim-able here or there with snips, wilco! > > Scott > > Wayne Owens wrote: > > Why not make them adjustable so you can tune the cooling. > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Scott Derrick" > > To: ; > > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 7:12 PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder > > > > > > > >>the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right > >>rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. > >> > >>I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl > >>mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of > >>the air from #4 and put it on #2. > >> > >>I have a STD Rg with the arm pit scoops for engine cooling. Each inside > >>each scoop is a diverter fin, directing some of the air towards the > >>forward cylinder and letting the rest inter the cowling towards towards > >>the rear. > >> > >>There are no other diverting fins inside the lower cowling. The Baffling > >>is the standard factory updraft kit. I silly-coned and added some red > >>baffling tape last summer to all the holes I could see which helped all > >>the cylinders about equally. About a 10 degree drop. > >> > >>Seems like one of the things I could do is cut a bit of the fin off so > >>it lets more air towards the rear of the cowling. > >> > >>Seems like I could also build a fiberglass fin into the lower cowling > >>near the #2 cylinder that would more directly focus the air up through > >>the cylinder. > >> > >>Which should I do first? Or do both together? Any other ideas. > >> > >>Scott > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>To change your email address, visit > > > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 12:52:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:52:30 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Full Halon SYSTEM $299 Message-ID: <1e5.9182cc9.2bf77c7e@aol.com> --part1_1e5.9182cc9.2bf77c7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my search fir a halon system I cam upon a well respected company in the race car industry (SafeCraft). With the help of some of you I compared their product with Phoenix and the one from Aircraft Spruce, which SafeCraft makes known as the AS. I chose the LT. model and compared it directly with the AS both on the SafeCraft website, http://www.safecraft.com/motorsports_model_lt.htm The big difference was how the bottle could be mounted. The AS is required to be mounted vertical with the nozzle in the down position since there is no pickup in the bottle. The LT. can be mounted either on it's side or vertical with the nozzle in the up position or any where in between. This was the only major differences according to SafeCraft. They both include extinguisher with 1301 halon, 15 foot pull cable, mount bracket(s), aircraft "T" bar clamps, 10 feet of discharge tubing, 3 spray nozzles, and all fittings. They both are about 6.5lb and are refillable I ordered mine from Livermore Performance out of California http://www.livermoreperformance.com/SafeCraft%20LT%20System.html the cost was 299.99 plus shipping 2nd day air $28+ a $40 Hazmat charge by UPS. The 5lb pound AS from spruce is $ 379 shipping would be about the same for the same distance they quoted me $25 from GA to FL. ground. I am building an XL-RG and we are planning to mount the unit on the floor behind the rear seat to the gear bulkhead. We will be making a light cover over it so no luggage will damage it. We are putting two nozzles in the engine area and one nozzle in the battery area. I know a Halon system may be overkill but I have spent a great deal of time and money on something I dreamed about for ten years. The $299 price tag seemed good insurance compared to a melting hulk of dreams on a runway or field somewhere. I hope this is helpful to someone else that may be considering a system. Good building and safe flying Steve XL-RG N787SB --part1_1e5.9182cc9.2bf77c7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my search fir a halon system I cam upon a well resp= ected company in the race car industry (SafeCraft).  With the help of s= ome of you I compared their product with Phoenix and the one from Aircraft S= pruce, which SafeCraft makes known as the AS.

I chose the LT. model and compared it directly with the AS both on the SafeC= raft website,  http://www.safecraft.com/motorsports_model_lt.htm  The big di= fference was how the bottle could be mounted.  The AS is required to be= mounted vertical with the nozzle in the down position since there is no pic= kup in the bottle.  The LT. can be mounted either on it's side or verti= cal with the  nozzle in the up position or any where in between. =20= This was the only major differences according to SafeCraft.  They both=20= include  extinguisher with 1301 halon, 15 foot pull cable, mount bracke= t(s), aircraft "T" bar clamps, 10 feet of discharge tubing, 3 spray nozzles,= and all fittings. They both are about 6.5lb and are refillable

I ordered mine from Livermore Performance out of California  http:/= /www.livermoreperformance.com/SafeCraft%20LT%20System.html   t= he cost was 299.99 plus shipping 2nd day air    $28+ a $40 Ha= zmat charge by UPS.  The 5lb pound AS from spruce is $ 379 shipping wou= ld be about the same for the same distance they quoted me $25 from GA to FL.= ground.

I am building an XL-RG and we are planning to mount the unit on the floor be= hind the rear seat to the gear bulkhead. We will be making a light cover ove= r it so no luggage will damage it.
We are putting two nozzles in the engine area and one nozzle in the battery=20= area.

I know a Halon system may be overkill but I have spent a great deal of time=20= and money on something I dreamed about for ten years.  The $299 price t= ag seemed good insurance compared to a melting hulk of dreams on a runway or= field somewhere.

I hope this is helpful to someone else that may be considering a system.

Good building and safe flying
Steve
XL-RG N787SB


 --part1_1e5.9182cc9.2bf77c7e_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 14:12:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 07:12:09 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> <1988562234.20030517090417@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <3EC63529.8030608@tnstaafl.net> The EGT's are all within 20 degrees. The warmer one is #3 onteh other side. Scott steve wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Are you sure its not incorrect fuel/air mixture to #4 cylinder ?? > How do the EGT's compare ?? (partially blocked fuel injector ??) > > Saturday, May 17, 2003, 7:12:57 AM, you wrote: > > SD> the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right > SD> rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. > > SD> I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl > SD> mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of > SD> the air from #4 and put it on #2. > > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 14:38:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jean Prudhomme) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 09:38:23 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> <1988562234.20030517090417@yahoo.com.au> <3EC63529.8030608@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <002301c31c79$9647bc10$0101a8c0@yourm3vezyx8af> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C31C58.0F08CA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check of any leak on the intake and make sure the lower baffle is close = to cylinder fins. Jean Prudhomme ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Scott Derrick=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder The EGT's are all within 20 degrees. The warmer one is #3 onteh other = side. Scott steve wrote: > Hi Scott, >=20 > Are you sure its not incorrect fuel/air mixture to #4 cylinder ?? > How do the EGT's compare ?? (partially blocked fuel injector ??) >=20 > Saturday, May 17, 2003, 7:12:57 AM, you wrote: >=20 > SD> the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the = right=20 > SD> rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards = the front. >=20 > SD> I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, = #2's cowl=20 > SD> mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take = some of=20 > SD> the air from #4 and put it on #2. >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C31C58.0F08CA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Check of = any leak on the=20 intake and make sure the lower baffle is close to cylinder = fins.
Jean=20 Prudhomme
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Scott = Derrick=20
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 = 9:12=20 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cooling = one=20 cylinder

The EGT's are all within 20 degrees.  The warmer = one is #3=20 onteh other side.

Scott

steve wrote:
> Hi = Scott,
>=20
> Are you sure its not incorrect fuel/air mixture to #4 = cylinder=20 ??
> How do the EGT's compare ?? (partially blocked fuel = injector=20 ??)
>
> Saturday, May 17, 2003, 7:12:57 AM, you = wrote:
>=20
> SD> the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my = plane.  #2=20 is the right
> SD> rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is = right next=20 to #2 towards the front.
>
> SD> I need to cool it = down, the=20 other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl
> SD> mate runs = the=20 coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of
> = SD> the=20 air from #4 and put it on #2.
>
>=20


_______________________________________________
To = change your=20 email address, visit http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C31C58.0F08CA80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 15:02:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:02:57 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder Message-ID: <1a8.144356ca.2bf79b11@aol.com> --part1_1a8.144356ca.2bf79b11_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also make sure that the cylinder fins are not clogged with silicone. Bob Wood --part1_1a8.144356ca.2bf79b11_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also make sure that the cylinder fins are not clogged=20= with silicone.

Bob Wood --part1_1a8.144356ca.2bf79b11_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 15:06:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 10:06:12 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder References: <3EC57079.8050708@tnstaafl.net> <1988562234.20030517090417@yahoo.com.au> <3EC63529.8030608@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <000d01c31c7d$797f9540$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I made my bottom of cylinder shrouds to provide about 1.5" of opening between the shrouds at the bottom of the cylinders. This looked awfully small to me but I got this measurement from a Sundowner in our hanger that has a O-360 180 horse engine in it. My heads are running GREAT. 405 degrees max after a 3000' climb with the plane fully loaded. My cruise CHT's are around 330-370 (rich to lean). But I also have the downdraft NACA inlets. I did not have to fill up all of the cracks between the upper plenum and the crankcase. I am really pleased with my cooling system, oil runs 180-210 degrees and cabin heat too with a single oil cooler. Another benefit of the Reflector - I have collected everybody's good ideas and have come up with a really nice running Velocity!!! THANKS EVERYBODY!!!! Good luck Scott, Ronnie 173 Elite RG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Cooling one cylinder > The EGT's are all within 20 degrees. The warmer one is #3 onteh other side. > > Scott > > steve wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > > > Are you sure its not incorrect fuel/air mixture to #4 cylinder ?? > > How do the EGT's compare ?? (partially blocked fuel injector ??) > > > > Saturday, May 17, 2003, 7:12:57 AM, you wrote: > > > > SD> the #2 cylinder has run hot since I bought my plane. #2 is the right > > SD> rear cylinder looking forward, #4 is right next to #2 towards the front. > > > > SD> I need to cool it down, the other three are fine, in fact #4, #2's cowl > > SD> mate runs the coolest. Which indicates to me that I need to take some of > > SD> the air from #4 and put it on #2. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 17:10:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org ( Chris Martin) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 09:10:13 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Full Halon SYSTEM $299 Message-ID: <410-22003561716101379@earthlink.net>
This is a good idea and I appreciate your research. What are you using for fire detection?
 
Chris Martin
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 5/17/2003 3:53:10 AM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Full Halon SYSTEM $299

In my search fir a halon system I cam upon a well respected company in the race car industry (SafeCraft).  With the help of some of you I compared their product with Phoenix and the one from Aircraft Spruce, which SafeCraft makes known as the AS.

I chose the LT. model and compared it directly with the AS both on the SafeCraft website,  http://www.safecraft.com/motorsports_model_lt.htm  The big difference was how the bottle could be mounted.  The AS is required to be mounted vertical with the nozzle in the down position since there is no pickup in the bottle.  The LT. can be mounted either on it's side or vertical with the  nozzle in the up position or any where in between.  This was the only major differences according to SafeCraft.  They both include  extinguisher with 1301 halon, 15 foot pull cable, mount bracket(s), aircraft "T" bar clamps, 10 feet of discharge tubing, 3 spray nozzles, and all fittings. They both are about 6.5lb and are refillable

I ordered mine from Livermore Performance out of California  http://www.livermoreperformance.com/SafeCraft%20LT%20System.html   the cost was 299.99 plus shipping 2nd day air    $28+ a $40 Hazmat charge by UPS.  The 5lb pound AS from spruce is $ 379 shipping would be about the same for the same distance they quoted me $25 from GA to FL. ground.

I am building an XL-RG and we are planning to mount the unit on the floor behind the rear seat to the gear bulkhead. We will be making a light cover over it so no luggage will damage it.
We are putting two nozzles in the engine area and one nozzle in the battery area.

I know a Halon system may be overkill but I have spent a great deal of time and money on something I dreamed about for ten years.  The $299 price tag seemed good insurance compared to a melting hulk of dreams on a runway or field somewhere.

I hope this is helpful to someone else that may be considering a system.

Good building and safe flying
Steve
XL-RG N787SB


From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 20:49:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:49:07 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Full Halon SYSTEM $299 Message-ID: <7e.38f11caa.2bf7ec33@aol.com> --part1_7e.38f11caa.2bf7ec33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure at this point what we are using for fire detection. Because of how the install goes we went for the extinguisher first. I saw in the reflector somebody was using heat sensitive tape. If anyone has a suggestion I would be appreciative Steve --part1_7e.38f11caa.2bf7ec33_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure at this point what we are using for fire dete= ction.  Because of how the install goes we went for the extinguisher fi= rst.
I saw in the reflector somebody was using heat sensitive tape.  If anyo= ne has a suggestion I would be appreciative
Steve --part1_7e.38f11caa.2bf7ec33_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 20:50:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 15:50:53 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Garmin 430/530 Simulator and Flight Simulator References: <410-22003561716101379@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000601c31cad$a03a4880$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C31C8C.18A26180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who are using a Garmin 430/530, there is software that allows the 430/530 Garmin Simulator software to run as an "insert" to the cockpit display in FS2000 or FS2002. This means the two simulators are interconnected such that the Garmin knows where Flight Simulator is. Go to www.Avsim.com and search for Garmin 430. Instructions are given for downloading and installing the software. I have downloaded the Velocity XL from www.flightsim.com , revised the panel so that it is similar to the panel in my 173 Elite RG, and now that I have the Garmin 430 simulated, I can fly practice IFR approaches to my heart's content!!! Especially fun when the weather sucks like it does today!!! I'm sorry, I don't have detailed instructions on how to do all of this, it has evolved over the past 6 months - but the key point is - it can be done and it works very nicely! Ronnie Brown ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C31C8C.18A26180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For those of you who are using a Garmin 430/530, = there=20 is software that allows the 430/530 Garmin Simulator software to = run as an=20 "insert" to the cockpit display in FS2000 or FS2002.  This means = the two=20 simulators are interconnected such that the Garmin knows where Flight = Simulator=20 is. 
 
Go to www.Avsim.com =20 and search for Garmin 430.
 
Instructions are given for downloading and = installing the=20 software.
 
I have downloaded the Velocity XL from www.flightsim.com , revised the = panel so=20 that it is similar to the panel in my 173 Elite RG, and now that I have = the=20 Garmin 430 simulated, I can fly practice IFR approaches to my heart's=20 content!!!  Especially fun when the weather sucks like it does=20 today!!! 
 
I'm sorry, I don't have detailed instructions on how = to do all=20 of this, it has evolved over the past 6 months - but the key point is - = it can=20 be done and it works very nicely!
 
Ronnie Brown
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C31C8C.18A26180-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 21:18:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:18:42 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: <1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322@aol.com> --part1_1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. Wayne or Scott?? --part1_1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've got the fire suppression worked out now were look= ing for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions.  Wayne or Sc= ott?? --part1_1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 23:43:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ralph Pierce) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:43:20 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change Message-ID: <00c101c31cc5$b77f1580$d0ae7518@com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01C31C93.6C90B920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please change my e-mail address to pierce4@cableone.net ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01C31C93.6C90B920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please change my e-mail address = to
 
pierce4@cableone.net
------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01C31C93.6C90B920-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 23:12:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:12:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection References: <1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322@aol.com> Message-ID: <004b01c31cc1$6c4a9980$a43f4ed8@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C31C9F.E4A98AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string (series) around likely = hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end is tied to the anode of = a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode = is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is grounded) = but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them blows = (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to = ground. You should insert a normally closed "press to test" switch in the = string also. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PVTPIL8@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking for the = early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. Wayne or Scott?? ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C31C9F.E4A98AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in = a string=20 (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end = is tied=20 to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator = panel. The=20 LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is = grounded)=20 but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them blows = (overheats).=20 That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to = ground.
 You should insert a normally = closed "press to=20 test" switch in the string also.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PVTPIL8@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 = 4:18=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for=20 suggestions about fire detection

I've got the fire suppression worked out now were = looking=20 for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions.  Wayne or=20 Scott?? ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C31C9F.E4A98AC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 23:14:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:14:35 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change References: <00c101c31cc5$b77f1580$d0ae7518@com> Message-ID: <3EC6B44B.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Its your address, change it yourself! Ralph Pierce wrote: > Please change my e-mail address to > > pierce4@cableone.net From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 17 23:50:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Paul Klahn) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 16:50:03 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... In-Reply-To: <3EC6B44B.3060002@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <000401c31cc6$abf83a60$0200000a@home1> Congratulations! Through demonstrated persistence, Scott Derrick has proven himself to be an above average annoyance and generally rude person! Welcome to my "Blocked Sender" list! To the other 500 Reflectorites -- sorry to clutter your mailbox with my venting. --Paul Klahn -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [On Behalf Of Scott Derrick] Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:15 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change Its your address, change it yourself! Ralph Pierce wrote: > Please change my e-mail address to > > pierce4@cableone.net _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 04:19:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:19:57 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: <21.2f6566f6.2bf855dd@aol.com> --part1_21.2f6566f6.2bf855dd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Send me your FAX # I will send you a simple wiring diagram. We would not fly a Velocity without fire detection system. Mack and Steven Murphree --part1_21.2f6566f6.2bf855dd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Send me your FAX # I will send y= ou a simple wiring diagram. We would not fly a Velocity without fire detecti= on system.
Mack and Steven Murphree --part1_21.2f6566f6.2bf855dd_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 06:54:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Nolan) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 23:54:05 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... Message-ID: <00a401c31d01$e42af860$f1c262d8@frederic> Hey Paul, I wondered if you were still a REFLECTORITE ! I sent a fellow, surname Smith from Golden to see you re your XLRG. Did he ever come to see you? Nolan up in Boulder (nvincent@idcomm.com) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Klahn To: reflector@tvbf.org Date: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:55 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... >Congratulations! Through demonstrated persistence, Scott Derrick has >proven himself to be an above average annoyance and generally rude >person! Welcome to my "Blocked Sender" list! > >To the other 500 Reflectorites -- sorry to clutter your mailbox with my >venting. > >--Paul Klahn > > >-----Original Message----- >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [On Behalf Of Scott Derrick] >Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:15 PM >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change > >Its your address, change it yourself! > >Ralph Pierce wrote: >> Please change my e-mail address to >> >> pierce4@cableone.net > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 12:30:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jean Prudhomme) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:30:07 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... References: <00a401c31d01$e42af860$f1c262d8@frederic> Message-ID: <002c01c31d30$d5c24420$0101a8c0@yourm3vezyx8af> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C31D0F.4E883490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have a good day Nolan from Florida Jean Prudhomme ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nolan=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:54 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... Hey Paul, I wondered if you were still a REFLECTORITE ! I sent a fellow, = surname Smith from Golden to see you re your XLRG. Did he ever come to see = you? Nolan up in Boulder (nvincent@idcomm.com) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Klahn To: reflector@tvbf.org Date: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:55 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... >Congratulations! Through demonstrated persistence, Scott Derrick has >proven himself to be an above average annoyance and generally rude >person! Welcome to my "Blocked Sender" list! > >To the other 500 Reflectorites -- sorry to clutter your mailbox with = my >venting. > >--Paul Klahn > > >-----Original Message----- >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [On Behalf Of Scott Derrick] >Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:15 PM >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change > >Its your address, change it yourself! > >Ralph Pierce wrote: >> Please change my e-mail address to >> >> pierce4@cableone.net > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C31D0F.4E883490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have a good = day Nolan=20 from Florida
Jean=20 Prudhomme
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nolan=20
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:54 = AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Welcome = to the=20 list...

Hey Paul,
    I wondered if you were = still a=20 REFLECTORITE !  I sent a fellow, surname
Smith from Golden to = see you=20 re your XLRG.  Did he ever come to see you?
Nolan up in = Boulder =20 (nvincent@idcomm.com)

-----= Original=20 Message-----
From: Paul Klahn <paul@klahn.us>
To: reflector@tvbf.org <reflector@tvbf.org>
Date: = Saturday,=20 May 17, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the=20 list...


>Congratulations!  Through demonstrated=20 persistence, Scott Derrick has
>proven himself to be an above = average=20 annoyance and generally rude
>person!  Welcome to my = "Blocked=20 Sender" list!
>
>To the other 500 Reflectorites -- sorry = to=20 clutter your mailbox with my
>venting.
>
>--Paul=20 Klahn
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org = [On Behalf=20 Of Scott Derrick]
>Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:15 = PM
>To: reflector@tvbf.org
>Subject:= Re:=20 REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change
>
>Its your address, = change it=20 yourself!
>
>Ralph Pierce wrote:
>> Please change = my=20 e-mail address to
>>
>> pierce4@cableone.net
>
= >
>_______________________________________________
>To=20 change your email address,=20 = visit
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
&g= t;Visit=20 the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>
>
>
>
>_______________= ________________________________
>To=20 change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit=20 the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose

_______________________________________________=
To=20 change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C31D0F.4E883490-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 13:53:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 08:53:42 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection References: <1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322@aol.com> <004b01c31cc1$6c4a9980$a43f4ed8@mshome.net> Message-ID: <005b01c31d3c$831d88e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C31D1A.FBB05B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wayne. How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at Digikey and got no response. THANKS! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to ground. You should insert a normally closed "press to test" switch in the string also. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: PVTPIL8@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. Wayne or Scott?? ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C31D1A.FBB05B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wayne.
 
How about a part number?  I did a search on = Thermal at=20 Digikey and got no response.
 
THANKS!
Ronnie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire=20 detection

I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in = a string=20 (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end = is tied=20 to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator = panel. The=20 LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is = grounded)=20 but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them blows = (overheats).=20 That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to = ground.
 You should insert a normally = closed "press to=20 test" switch in the string also.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PVTPIL8@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 = 4:18=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for=20 suggestions about fire detection

I've got the fire suppression worked out now were = looking=20 for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions.  Wayne or=20 Scott?? ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C31D1A.FBB05B60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 14:17:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:17:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Brake lines Message-ID: A while back, Andreas had given a schedule for doing brake lines. It included using (I believe) braided stainless??... Andreas, if you are listening, could you give that schedule again. Thanks, Andy From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 14:17:29 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 09:17:29 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points Message-ID: According to the manual, the rear, inboard, front seat hard points are supposed to be potted right where the speed brake hinges are. I looked at the new version of the manual, and this mistake still seems to be there. I want to get my seat mounts done before I put the top on my fuselage. Can anyone tell me what the work around should be? Thanks, Andy From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 15:09:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:09:04 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection References: <1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322@aol.com> <004b01c31cc1$6c4a9980$a43f4ed8@mshome.net> <005b01c31d3c$831d88e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <001301c31d47$0ac6f380$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C31D25.832F0C80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C31D25.832F0C80" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C31D25.832F0C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Woops. What Digi-Key calls them now is Thermal Cutoffs. They list a bunch from = Panasonic for various temperatures in degrees Centigrade. Part numbers = are similar to P10925-ND. Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of places L20691-ND has a built in = resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND requires a 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt = resistor in series according to how bright you want it on the panel. = Don't go much below 1200 ohms. If the attachment is too large I will post it to the Jamaican goose = thingy. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ronnie Brown=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Wayne. How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at Digikey and got = no response. THANKS! Ronnie ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wayne Owens=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string (series) around = likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end is tied to the = anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The = LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is = grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them = blows (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED = to ground. You should insert a normally closed "press to test" switch in the = string also. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PVTPIL8@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking for the = early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. Wayne or Scott?? ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C31D25.832F0C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Woops.
What Digi-Key calls them now is = Thermal=20 Cutoffs. They list a bunch from Panasonic  for various = temperatures in=20 degrees Centigrade. Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND.
 
 
Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of = places=20 L20691-ND has a built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND = requires a=20 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according to how bright you = want it=20 on the panel. Don't go much below 1200 ohms.
 
If the attachment is too large I will = post it to=20 the Jamaican goose thingy.
Wayne
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 = AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking = for=20 suggestions about fire detection

Wayne.
 
How about a part number?  I did a search on = Thermal at=20 Digikey and got no response.
 
THANKS!
Ronnie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire=20 detection

I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) = in a string=20 (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other = end is=20 tied to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my = annunciator=20 panel. The LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage = (cathode=20 is grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them = blows=20 (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to=20 ground.
 You should insert a normally = closed "press=20 to test" switch in the string also.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PVTPIL8@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 = 4:18=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking = for=20 suggestions about fire detection

I've got the fire suppression worked out now = were looking=20 for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions.  Wayne = or=20 Scott??
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+0j2z3o5PWmHop74NKD+4J9jQIcenTNIc7fp+JoHL0ITxz6UhjgAON3tScD0NIPvj6VIRQIYBkjj 8Kd9DTSB5ijtg8UEDa30oGKOQc45pT9Mmmj+D/PanDoKBB+FHT/9VKvQGlpANpSe1Nyd4+h/pTsc UwEb7vf8KTk9cYpR/WhuooACM0Y9cUgPX601CTu5oAe2KQnI6j86D1A7YNMckSDBxx/jQCHZOc8Y 7UAljwM+4pG6Ch+CuOOcfpQMdgjv+NHGece9C9SOwpT1P0oEIT2BGRQBkcdKUKORgYpgAw3Hf+lA 7Ac8H+HHrzSjDdQQKVev/AjTqBXG5PQEZpCDt6/jmhTkn8KU9/Y0ANbdnI/SgOOhBPbihx8wHY0H jn/PWgYpGeMn1pPutjv9c/5608DofehuFJHXFACA+pGPXNFRknaxz/FRSbEz/9k= ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C31D25.832F0C80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 15:34:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 07:34:16 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points References: Message-ID: <001501c31d4a$a24174d0$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Andy, I hit the same problem with my SEFG, the measurements in the manual are just plain wrong - at least the front/back distance is wrong. I discovered this while I was at the Builders Center about a year ago and it was suggested to me that they should be in front of the speedbrake cutout in the fuselage floor by an inch or two, it was also suggested that I should leave it until the very end to do this & that's what I've done - to be precise nothing !! Cheers, Tony Top NACAs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 6:17 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > According to the manual, the rear, inboard, front seat hard points are > supposed to be potted right where the speed brake hinges are. I looked at > the new version of the manual, and this mistake still seems to be there. I > want to get my seat mounts done before I put the top on my fuselage. Can > anyone tell me what the work around should be? > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 16:03:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 11:03:59 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points In-Reply-To: <001501c31d4a$a24174d0$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> Message-ID: Tony, That was also suggested to me. I have left it. But, I met up with Wes Rose yesterday at the Triple H fly-in. I told Wes that I was making my final preparation to get the top of the fuselage put on. Then he started asking questions... He had suggested that I should take more time and install my seats, do my brake lines, do my rudder cable conduit, and anything else possible before putting on the top. He has built two Velocities and has done it both ways. He said I would thank myself for getting this stuff done before I put the top on. Wes clearly has the experience, so I'm going to get these things done. But, I have to figure out how. :) Another thing, the manual calls for the seat rails to be mounted 2" from the keel. Makes the point that the rails should be parallel with it so the seat won't bind when it moves back and forth. This makes sense, but the 2" doesn't. The hard points appear to be centered about 3.5" from the keel. If I move the rails so they are 2" from the keel, obviously I'm way off center. It has me scratching my head. Also 2" doesn't seem like a lot of room for the seat. I'm inclined to mount the rails parallel to the keel, but centered over the hard points. Any comments or suggestions on the placement would be appreciated. And another question, if I may. The manual calls for the hard points to be drilled and tapped 1/4-20 and then generic threaded rod be inserted and cut to length. Great -- got it. Then (the magic happens) install the seats. I'm missing something here. I can't find anything on the seat rails that looks like it would accept 1/4-20 rod in any way, shape, or form. It looks like some welding skills are going to be required here. I'm going to check the new manuals again, but as far as I can see the rails I have cannot be attached as they exist today. Having all the fun I can building, Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tony Babb Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:34 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points Andy, I hit the same problem with my SEFG, the measurements in the manual are just plain wrong - at least the front/back distance is wrong. I discovered this while I was at the Builders Center about a year ago and it was suggested to me that they should be in front of the speedbrake cutout in the fuselage floor by an inch or two, it was also suggested that I should leave it until the very end to do this & that's what I've done - to be precise nothing !! Cheers, Tony Top NACAs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 6:17 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > According to the manual, the rear, inboard, front seat hard points are > supposed to be potted right where the speed brake hinges are. I looked at > the new version of the manual, and this mistake still seems to be there. I > want to get my seat mounts done before I put the top on my fuselage. Can > anyone tell me what the work around should be? > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 16:45:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:45:36 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points Message-ID: I have some pictures on my site about how the SUV did the seat rails. Maybe they would help... www.hammsaircraft.com look on the home page for my visit to the factory in june of 2000.... -Don _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 18:31:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:31:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points References: Message-ID: <001101c31d63$504b8440$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I very much agree with doing everything that you can while the top is still off. I even built a new bulkhead that forms the inboard side of the fuel tanks - not using the fuselage side. This allowed me to do all of my strake and fuel tank work with the fuselage top off. Mine is an RG so this was even more helpful. I drilled 1/4" holes directly in the seat rails for the 1/4" threaded stock. And yes, you will need to install the seat rails so that they slide parallel with the keel. I had to cut off the outboard forward edge of my pilot seat because I couldn't close the door. Some others have cut the seats in half and made them 1" narrower to fix this problem. I just cut the corner and built up a new corner. Ronnie Brown ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 11:03 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > Tony, > > That was also suggested to me. I have left it. > > But, I met up with Wes Rose yesterday at the Triple H fly-in. I told Wes > that I was making my final preparation to get the top of the fuselage put > on. Then he started asking questions... He had suggested that I should > take more time and install my seats, do my brake lines, do my rudder cable > conduit, and anything else possible before putting on the top. He has built > two Velocities and has done it both ways. He said I would thank myself for > getting this stuff done before I put the top on. > > Wes clearly has the experience, so I'm going to get these things done. But, > I have to figure out how. :) > > Another thing, the manual calls for the seat rails to be mounted 2" from the > keel. Makes the point that the rails should be parallel with it so the seat > won't bind when it moves back and forth. This makes sense, but the 2" > doesn't. The hard points appear to be centered about 3.5" from the keel. > If I move the rails so they are 2" from the keel, obviously I'm way off > center. It has me scratching my head. Also 2" doesn't seem like a lot of > room for the seat. I'm inclined to mount the rails parallel to the keel, > but centered over the hard points. Any comments or suggestions on the > placement would be appreciated. > > And another question, if I may. The manual calls for the hard points to be > drilled and tapped 1/4-20 and then generic threaded rod be inserted and cut > to length. Great -- got it. Then (the magic happens) install the seats. > I'm missing something here. I can't find anything on the seat rails that > looks like it would accept 1/4-20 rod in any way, shape, or form. It looks > like some welding skills are going to be required here. I'm going to check > the new manuals again, but as far as I can see the rails I have cannot be > attached as they exist today. > > Having all the fun I can building, > > Best, > > Andy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Tony Babb > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:34 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > > > Andy, > > I hit the same problem with my SEFG, the measurements in the manual are just > plain wrong - at least the front/back distance is wrong. I discovered this > while I was at the Builders Center about a year ago and it was suggested to > me that they should be in front of the speedbrake cutout in the fuselage > floor by an inch or two, it was also suggested that I should leave it until > the very end to do this & that's what I've done - to be precise nothing !! > > Cheers, > > Tony > Top NACAs > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Millin" > To: "Reflector" > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 6:17 AM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > > > > According to the manual, the rear, inboard, front seat hard points are > > supposed to be potted right where the speed brake hinges are. I looked at > > the new version of the manual, and this mistake still seems to be there. > I > > want to get my seat mounts done before I put the top on my fuselage. Can > > anyone tell me what the work around should be? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Andy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 18:45:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 13:45:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection References: <1d5.9ccbb67.2bf7f322@aol.com> <004b01c31cc1$6c4a9980$a43f4ed8@mshome.net> <005b01c31d3c$831d88e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> <001301c31d47$0ac6f380$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <002301c31d65$4ed09220$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C31D43.C72F8360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THANKS Wayne, I couldn't find them in Digikey but I did find them at http://www.mouser.com/catalog//614/298.pdf At $.40 each, I think I'll order a few and wire them around the engine compartment. I'd guess a trip temperature of around 163 -183 deg C or 325 to 360 deg F would be what we would need - but not too close to the exhaust pipes. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:09 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Woops. What Digi-Key calls them now is Thermal Cutoffs. They list a bunch from Panasonic for various temperatures in degrees Centigrade. Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND. Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of places L20691-ND has a built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND requires a 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according to how bright you want it on the panel. Don't go much below 1200 ohms. If the attachment is too large I will post it to the Jamaican goose thingy. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Wayne. How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at Digikey and got no response. THANKS! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to ground. You should insert a normally closed "press to test" switch in the string also. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: PVTPIL8@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. Wayne or Scott?? ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C31D43.C72F8360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
THANKS Wayne,
 
I couldn't find them in Digikey but I did find them = at http://www.mouser.com= /catalog//614/298.pdf 
 
At $.40 each, I think I'll order a few and wire them = around=20 the engine compartment.  I'd guess a trip temperature of around 163 = -183=20 deg C or  325 to 360 deg F would be what we would need - but = not too=20 close to the exhaust pipes.
 
Ronnie
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire=20 detection

Woops.
What Digi-Key calls them now is = Thermal=20 Cutoffs. They list a bunch from Panasonic  for various = temperatures in=20 degrees Centigrade. Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND.
 
 
Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of = places=20 L20691-ND has a built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND = requires a=20 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according to how bright you = want it=20 on the panel. Don't go much below 1200 ohms.
 
If the attachment is too large I will = post it to=20 the Jamaican goose thingy.
Wayne
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 = AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking = for=20 suggestions about fire detection

Wayne.
 
How about a part number?  I did a search on = Thermal at=20 Digikey and got no response.
 
THANKS!
Ronnie
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire=20 detection

I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) = in a string=20 (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other = end is=20 tied to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my = annunciator=20 panel. The LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage = (cathode=20 is grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them = blows=20 (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to=20 ground.
 You should insert a normally = closed "press=20 to test" switch in the string also.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PVTPIL8@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 = 4:18=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking = for=20 suggestions about fire detection

I've got the fire suppression worked out now = were looking=20 for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions.  Wayne = or=20 Scott??
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C31D43.C72F8360-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 19:55:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Nolan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:55:14 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... Message-ID: <001701c31d6f$04ac9360$f6c262d8@frederic> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C31D3C.B99CA540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jean Prudhomme "The Great!" I hope that boat is filling that great void = in your life left by the sale of your Velocity. nolan -----Original Message----- From: Jean Prudhomme To: reflector@tvbf.org Date: Sunday, May 18, 2003 5:37 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... =20 =20 Have a good day Nolan from Florida Jean Prudhomme ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nolan=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:54 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... =20 =20 Hey Paul, I wondered if you were still a REFLECTORITE ! I sent a = fellow, surname Smith from Golden to see you re your XLRG. Did he ever come to = see you? Nolan up in Boulder (nvincent@idcomm.com) =20 -----Original Message----- From: Paul Klahn To: reflector@tvbf.org Date: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:55 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to the list... =20 =20 >Congratulations! Through demonstrated persistence, Scott = Derrick has >proven himself to be an above average annoyance and generally = rude >person! Welcome to my "Blocked Sender" list! > >To the other 500 Reflectorites -- sorry to clutter your mailbox = with my >venting. > >--Paul Klahn > > >-----Original Message----- >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [On Behalf Of Scott Derrick] >Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:15 PM >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change > >Its your address, change it yourself! > >Ralph Pierce wrote: >> Please change my e-mail address to >> >> pierce4@cableone.net > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose =20 _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector =20 Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C31D3C.B99CA540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jean Prudhomme "The Great!"  I hope = that boat=20 is filling that great void in your life left by the sale of your=20 Velocity.
nolan
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Jean Prudhomme <alienair@bellsouth.net>
= To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org = <reflector@tvbf.org>
Date:= =20 Sunday, May 18, 2003 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Welcome to=20 the list...

Have a = good day Nolan=20 from Florida
Jean=20 Prudhomme
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Nolan=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Sunday, May 18, = 2003 1:54=20 AM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Welcome to=20 the list...

Hey Paul,
    I wondered if you = were=20 still a REFLECTORITE !  I sent a fellow, surname
Smith = from=20 Golden to see you re your XLRG.  Did he ever come to see=20 you?
Nolan up in Boulder  (nvincent@idcomm.com)

-----= Original=20 Message-----
From: Paul Klahn <paul@klahn.us>
To: reflector@tvbf.org <reflector@tvbf.org>
Date:=20 Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Welcome to = the=20 list...


>Congratulations!  Through = demonstrated=20 persistence, Scott Derrick has
>proven himself to be an = above=20 average annoyance and generally rude
>person!  = Welcome to my=20 "Blocked Sender" list!
>
>To the other 500 = Reflectorites -- sorry to clutter your mailbox with=20 my
>venting.
>
>--Paul=20 Klahn
>
>
>-----Original = Message-----
>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org = [On=20 Behalf Of Scott Derrick]
>Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 = 4:15=20 PM
>To: reflector@tvbf.org
>Subject:= =20 Re: REFLECTOR:E-mail Address Change
>
>Its your = address,=20 change it yourself!
>
>Ralph Pierce = wrote:
>>=20 Please change my e-mail address to
>>
>> pierce4@cableone.net
>
= >
>_______________________________________________
>To=20 change your email address,=20 = visit
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
&g= t;Visit=20 the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose
>
>
>
>
>_______________= ________________________________
>To=20 change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit=20 the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose

_______________________________________________=
To=20 change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery! =20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C31D3C.B99CA540-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 19:52:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:52:38 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: <182.1b2c5287.2bf93076@aol.com> --part1_182.1b2c5287.2bf93076_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Wayne --part1_182.1b2c5287.2bf93076_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Wayne --part1_182.1b2c5287.2bf93076_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 19:59:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:59:13 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points References: Message-ID: <000d01c31d6f$9342a6a0$0200a8c0@mshome.net> Rather then rush into putting in the front seat hard points now, I suggest that you assemble the seat hardware - throw some foam padding or thin pillow onto the seat bottom and seat back - and jump in. Position the seat adjuster near the middle of its travel ... then physically scoot the entire seat and mechanism forward or rearward so that the seat position feels "just right" for you. Make sure that the geometry of your right arm feels comfortable when touching the stick (in other words, so that you don't feel like you're either jammed or reaching). When your happy with the position, mark the seat mount location on the floor. From there, it's a simple matter to locate the position of the hard points. Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:17 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > According to the manual, the rear, inboard, front seat hard points are > supposed to be potted right where the speed brake hinges are. I looked at > the new version of the manual, and this mistake still seems to be there. I > want to get my seat mounts done before I put the top on my fuselage. Can > anyone tell me what the work around should be? > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 22:41:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:41:18 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points In-Reply-To: <000d01c31d6f$9342a6a0$0200a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: Scott, Thanks for responding. It is appreciated. Unfortunately, I have already followed the plans and put the hard points in. This included removing the inboard rears (that was a mess) so I could mount the speed brake. This happened about 9 months ago and I had requested that the plans be corrected so no other builder will have this problem. I have read the new manuals and the problem is still there. I would strongly suggest that the method you have just proposed here be written into the manual. I'm sure the future builders will appreciate it. Given the situation that I have, what does the factor suggest that I do? Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of S Baker Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:59 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points Rather then rush into putting in the front seat hard points now, I suggest that you assemble the seat hardware - throw some foam padding or thin pillow onto the seat bottom and seat back - and jump in. Position the seat adjuster near the middle of its travel ... then physically scoot the entire seat and mechanism forward or rearward so that the seat position feels "just right" for you. Make sure that the geometry of your right arm feels comfortable when touching the stick (in other words, so that you don't feel like you're either jammed or reaching). When your happy with the position, mark the seat mount location on the floor. From there, it's a simple matter to locate the position of the hard points. Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: "Reflector" Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:17 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > According to the manual, the rear, inboard, front seat hard points are > supposed to be potted right where the speed brake hinges are. I looked at > the new version of the manual, and this mistake still seems to be there. I > want to get my seat mounts done before I put the top on my fuselage. Can > anyone tell me what the work around should be? > > Thanks, > > Andy > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 18 22:49:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 17:49:57 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don, Thanks, That helps. Don't happen to have any pics of the inboard rear setup do you? Also, how is the job search going? We all want things to go well for you. Don't want you to have to sell your project. We have all been watching and cheering you on. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Donald Hamm Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 11:46 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points I have some pictures on my site about how the SUV did the seat rails. Maybe they would help... www.hammsaircraft.com look on the home page for my visit to the factory in june of 2000.... -Don _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 19 04:26:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 03:26:46 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: Ronnie... That might not be high enough...When you turn off the engine and let it set for a while, the cowl will heat sink. The temperature can reach up to five hundred degrees momentarily after shout down...I would go some what higher... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 19 04:45:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Scharfenberg) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 22:45:02 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection In-Reply-To: <005b01c31d3c$831d88e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3136142702_63225_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I got mine at Radio Shack Dave Scharfenberg std/RG on 5/18/03 7:53 AM, Ronnie Brown at romott@adelphia.net wrote: Wayne. How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at Digikey and got no response. THANKS! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to ground. You should insert a normally closed "press to test" switch in the string also. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: PVTPIL8@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. Wayne or Scott?? --MS_Mac_OE_3136142702_63225_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I got mine at Radio Shack


Dave Scharfenberg
std/RG




on 5/18/03 7:53 AM, Ronnie Brown at romott@adelphia.net wrote:

Wayne.
How about a part number?  I did a search on Thermal at = Digikey and got no response.
THANKS!
Ronnie
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Owens <mailto:wamowens@bells= outh.net>  
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection<= BR>
I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a= string (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and the other = end is tied to the anode of a flashing red LED (also Digi-Key)on my annuncia= tor panel. The LED anode is fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (ca= thode is grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until one of them= blows (overheats). That allows current to flow through the flashing LED to = ground.
You should insert a normally closed "press to test" switch in th= e string also.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: PVTPIL8@aol.com
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection

I've got the fire suppression worked out = now were looking for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. &nbs= p;Wayne or Scott??

--MS_Mac_OE_3136142702_63225_MIME_Part-- From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 19 15:20:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:20:39 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:4-Into-1 Exhaust References: Message-ID: <3EC8E837.60402@tnstaafl.net> Somebody a while back asked for pictures of my 4-into-1 exhaust system. I finally found my USB cable to connect my camera to my PC so I could upload the images. go to http://www.tnstaafl.net/exhaust to view the pictures. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 19 15:32:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: <20030519143205.48773.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Will have to post the picture on the Galery later, it is too big. Jim --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Agnew > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > To: Velocity Reflector > > Added a low res copy of the picture. > > Jim > > > Wayne, > > This is exactly the circuit I used several years ago and > it > works well. You need to keep the sensors in the 140 > degree > C (284 F) range or a little lower since that is very hot > for fiberglass. I used 4 sensors on each cowl half 2 > front > about 18" apart under the area behind the engine in case > gas or oil ran back burning and two in the rear of the > cowl > just forward of the reinforcing ridge about 12" apart to > get fire exiting the cowl. The upper cowl has the > sensors > in the same place. Obviously this should be looked upon > as > a “possible fire warning” circuit since a sensor or wire > might fail. I used #22 tefzel wire and covered all of > the > wire on the cowls with one fine bid leaving the sensor > body > exposed. > > Now for the real trick, I originally used locking plugs > on > each cowl to connect the wires. I quickly found that > this > was a real pain and decided to make an automatic > connector > so I could just install the cowl haves without worrying > about the connections. I settled on alarm system > window/sliding door Foil Take-off Contact switches > (example picture attached) that you should be able to get > inexpensively from alarm system installers. They have > high > pressure wiping nickel contacts with one or more > “fingers”, > depending on the make, and are very dependable. Install > the fixed portion on the engine bulkhead and the moving > contact on the cowl. It will take some trial and error > in > placement and mounting. Mine are mounted on the side > curve > of the cowl. > > Hope this helps those planning to use this type of > system. > > Jim > > > --- Wayne Owens wrote: Woops. > What > Digi-Key calls them now is Thermal Cutoffs. They list a > bunch from Panasonic for various temperatures in degrees > Centigrade. Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND. > > > Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of places L20691-ND has > a > built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND requires a > 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according to > how bright you want it on the panel. Don't go much below > 1200 ohms. > > If the attachment is too large I will post it to the > Jamaican goose thingy. Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: > reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire > detection > > > Wayne. > > How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at > Digikey and got no response. > > THANKS! Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: > reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire > detection > > > I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string > (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and > the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red LED > (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode is > fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is > grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until > one > of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow > through the flashing LED to ground. You should insert a > normally closed "press to test" switch in the string > also. > Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: PVTPIL8@aol.com > To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 > PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire > detection > > > I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking > for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. > Wayne or Scott?? > > > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity > 173 > Elite Aircraft Completed > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=Takeoff Contact.jpg ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 19 15:42:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Donald Hamm) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:42:51 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points Message-ID: its progress -- that's about it. I've talked to one person about buying the plane -- we'll see. I want that person to be sure they understand the building process and what it takes -- he is excited but I want him to be sure he knows what he is getting into. We all know what it takes... I love the building process and want to 'continue' but @ this point -- family first. I'll let everyone know what happens... Thanks for the support! -Don _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 19 16:57:14 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 11:57:14 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: <3C9FE0D7.1A0F4F75.00182997@aol.com> Dave what part numbers from Radio Shack From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 20 05:46:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dave Scharfenberg) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:46:15 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection In-Reply-To: <3C9FE0D7.1A0F4F75.00182997@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't have the part numbers but they are called thermal fuses and come in many temp ratings. Dave on 5/19/03 10:57 AM, PVTPIL8@aol.com at PVTPIL8@aol.com wrote: > Dave what part numbers from Radio Shack > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 20 13:46:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:46:49 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gallery Message-ID: <001601c31ecd$e1fba440$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C31EAC.5A6B5E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it just me or is the Gallery unavailable? Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C31EAC.5A6B5E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is it just me or is the Gallery=20 unavailable?
Wayne
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C31EAC.5A6B5E60-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 20 14:06:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:06:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gallery In-Reply-To: <001601c31ecd$e1fba440$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C31EA6.AA740340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The gallery has been down since the software change. It's my top priority, right behind the back burner. I've scheduled some time tonight and tomorrow to get it back online. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Wayne Owens Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 7:47 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Gallery Is it just me or is the Gallery unavailable? Wayne ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C31EA6.AA740340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 gallery has been down since the software change.  It's my top = priority,=20 right behind the back burner.
 
I've=20 scheduled some time tonight and tomorrow to get it back=20 online.
 

 Brian Michalk  <http://www.michalk.com>
Life is what you make = of it ...=20 never wish you had done something.
Aviator, experimental aircraft = builder,=20 motorcyclist, SCUBA diver
musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and = mostly=20 single
 

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 7:47 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: = REFLECTOR:Gallery

Is it just me or is the Gallery=20 unavailable?
Wayne
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C31EA6.AA740340-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 20 20:28:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:28:31 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations References: Message-ID: <3ECA81DF.9050206@tnstaafl.net> The FAA made a major change to the Operating Limitations section of 8130.2 Not to the better in my opinion! Here's the old one (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to re-establish compliance with § 91.319(b). All operations will be conducted day VFR in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. Persons non-essential to the flight shall not be carried. The aircraft owner shall make a detailed log book entry describing the change prior to the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot shall certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft records with the following or a similarly worded statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso______, Vx______, and Vy______, and the weight______, and CG location______ at which they were obtained." Here's the new one (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with § 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major change includes installing a different make and model of engine or propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to update the aircraft's file in the FAA Aircraft Registry. All operations must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours or for the time the FSDO assigns. Persons nonessential to the flight must not be carried. The aircraft owner must make a detailed logbook entry describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained." From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 20 23:37:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:37:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations In-Reply-To: <3ECA81DF.9050206@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: If using the same flight test area as in the original Phase I Operating Limitations, the aircraft owner already has permission to use that flight test area again. If that original flight test area is not available due to a move of the airplane, etc., then it just makes common sense to notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area that you would like to use. A revised Form 8130-6 is only used to update the FAA database as to the configuration of your experimental licensed airplane after a major change. Basically, the FAA has just combined Operating Limitations to make them more clear as to their original intention of the new 8130.2 change. Go figure... How can anyone be confused by the FAA wording, or change, or ...;-) Mike Pollock -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:29 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations The FAA made a major change to the Operating Limitations section of 8130.2 Not to the better in my opinion! Here's the old one (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to re-establish compliance with § 91.319(b). All operations will be conducted day VFR in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. Persons non-essential to the flight shall not be carried. The aircraft owner shall make a detailed log book entry describing the change prior to the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot shall certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft records with the following or a similarly worded statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso______, Vx______, and Vy______, and the weight______, and CG location______ at which they were obtained." Here's the new one (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with § 91.319(b) and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major change includes installing a different make and model of engine or propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to update the aircraft's file in the FAA Aircraft Registry. All operations must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours or for the time the FSDO assigns. Persons nonessential to the flight must not be carried. The aircraft owner must make a detailed logbook entry describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained." _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 01:59:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Paul Calhoun) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:59:23 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection In-Reply-To: <20030519143205.48773.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c31f34$389316b0$3a01a8c0@medamb.org> Jim, Would not your eight thermal fuses work just as well attached to the engine mounts forward of the engine and attached to the plenum and engine bolts in the rear of the engine near the cowling exhaust? This would avoid problems arising when the cowls are detached. The 22g wire {perhaps 18g)would be suspended in space between attachment points. Each fuse would possibly need to be anchored at both ends of the fuse. Just thinking aloud. Paul -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 7:32 AM To: Velocity Reflector Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Will have to post the picture on the Galery later, it is too big. Jim --- Jim Agnew wrote: > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Agnew > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire > detection > To: Velocity Reflector > > Added a low res copy of the picture. > > Jim > > > Wayne, > > This is exactly the circuit I used several years ago and > it > works well. You need to keep the sensors in the 140 > degree > C (284 F) range or a little lower since that is very hot > for fiberglass. I used 4 sensors on each cowl half 2 > front > about 18" apart under the area behind the engine in case > gas or oil ran back burning and two in the rear of the > cowl > just forward of the reinforcing ridge about 12" apart to > get fire exiting the cowl. The upper cowl has the > sensors > in the same place. Obviously this should be looked upon > as > a "possible fire warning" circuit since a sensor or wire might fail. > I used #22 tefzel wire and covered all of the > wire on the cowls with one fine bid leaving the sensor > body > exposed. > > Now for the real trick, I originally used locking plugs > on > each cowl to connect the wires. I quickly found that > this > was a real pain and decided to make an automatic > connector > so I could just install the cowl haves without worrying > about the connections. I settled on alarm system window/sliding door > Foil Take-off Contact switches (example picture attached) that you > should be able to get inexpensively from alarm system installers. > They have high > pressure wiping nickel contacts with one or more > "fingers", > depending on the make, and are very dependable. Install > the fixed portion on the engine bulkhead and the moving > contact on the cowl. It will take some trial and error > in > placement and mounting. Mine are mounted on the side > curve > of the cowl. > > Hope this helps those planning to use this type of > system. > > Jim > > > --- Wayne Owens wrote: Woops. > What > Digi-Key calls them now is Thermal Cutoffs. They list a > bunch from Panasonic for various temperatures in degrees Centigrade. > Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND. > > > Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of places L20691-ND has > a > built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND requires a > 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according to > how bright you want it on the panel. Don't go much below > 1200 ohms. > > If the attachment is too large I will post it to the > Jamaican goose thingy. Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 AM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection > > > Wayne. > > How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at Digikey and got > no response. > > THANKS! Ronnie > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: reflector@tvbf.org > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection > > > I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string > (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded and > the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red LED > (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode is > fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode is > grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until > one > of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow > through the flashing LED to ground. You should insert a > normally closed "press to test" switch in the string > also. > Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: PVTPIL8@aol.com > To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 4:18 > PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire > detection > > > I've got the fire suppression worked out now were looking > for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. > Wayne or Scott?? > > > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity > 173 > Elite Aircraft Completed > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=Takeoff Contact.jpg ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 02:41:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection In-Reply-To: <000e01c31f34$389316b0$3a01a8c0@medamb.org> Message-ID: <20030521014154.42800.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> I don't believe that they would be anywhere as effective for the following reasons. First you must accommodate two extremes no or low airflow like idling or taxing and high-speed large airflow and everything in-between. Then you have up or downdraft cooling that must be considered. Given these parameters we can assume that most fires are going to be burning liquid so we will concentrate on those first. At little airflow the burning liquid will (personal experience) flow forward and collect at the low point of the cowl producing a lot of hot gases that will rise and heat the upper cowl near the rear the most. Thus the high mounted rear cowl sensors will most likely trip. With low airflow the heat will also travel rear to exit following the upper cowl and most likely trip the top rear sensors. As airflow increases you will get more of a blowtorch effect out the rear and depending on up or downdraft cooling the upper or lower rear sensors should trip. No lets look at a fiberglass fire where the cowl is burning, it would most likely be caused by an exhaust pipe breaking and burning a hole thru the fiberglass, which will burn. The flame will probably burn both inside and outside the cowl and hopefully burn thru the wires or trip a sensor. Given the airflow thru the cowl I don’t know how effective a Halon system will be. You will have to flood the cowl very quickly and with plenum cooling the plenum as well. When I was Flag Marshall for the SCCA I taught fire fighting in racecars and fought a lot. I can tell you that it takes a lot of almost any firefighting agent to put out a gasoline fire and flashbacks are common. Jim --- Paul Calhoun wrote: > Jim, > Would not your eight thermal fuses work just as well > attached to the > engine mounts forward of the engine and attached to the > plenum and > engine bolts in the rear of the engine near the cowling > exhaust? This > would avoid problems arising when the cowls are detached. > The 22g wire > {perhaps 18g)would be suspended in space between > attachment points. Each > fuse would possibly need to be anchored at both ends of > the fuse. > > Just thinking aloud. > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Agnew > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 7:32 AM > To: Velocity Reflector > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > > > Will have to post the picture on the Galery later, it is > too big. > > Jim > --- Jim Agnew wrote: > > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Jim Agnew > > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions > about fire > > detection > > To: Velocity Reflector > > > > Added a low res copy of the picture. > > > > Jim > > > > > > Wayne, > > > > This is exactly the circuit I used several years ago > and > > it > > works well. You need to keep the sensors in the 140 > > degree > > C (284 F) range or a little lower since that is very > hot > > for fiberglass. I used 4 sensors on each cowl half 2 > > front > > about 18" apart under the area behind the engine in > case > > gas or oil ran back burning and two in the rear of the > > cowl > > just forward of the reinforcing ridge about 12" apart > to > > get fire exiting the cowl. The upper cowl has the > > sensors > > in the same place. Obviously this should be looked > upon > > as > > a "possible fire warning" circuit since a sensor or > wire might fail. > > I used #22 tefzel wire and covered all of the > > wire on the cowls with one fine bid leaving the sensor > > body > > exposed. > > > > Now for the real trick, I originally used locking plugs > > on > > each cowl to connect the wires. I quickly found that > > this > > was a real pain and decided to make an automatic > > connector > > so I could just install the cowl haves without worrying > > about the connections. I settled on alarm system > window/sliding door > > Foil Take-off Contact switches (example picture > attached) that you > > should be able to get inexpensively from alarm system > installers. > > They have high > > pressure wiping nickel contacts with one or more > > "fingers", > > depending on the make, and are very dependable. > Install > > the fixed portion on the engine bulkhead and the moving > > contact on the cowl. It will take some trial and error > > in > > placement and mounting. Mine are mounted on the side > > curve > > of the cowl. > > > > Hope this helps those planning to use this type of > > system. > > > > Jim > > > > > > --- Wayne Owens wrote: Woops. > > What > > Digi-Key calls them now is Thermal Cutoffs. They list a > > bunch from Panasonic for various temperatures in > degrees Centigrade. > > Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND. > > > > > > Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of places L20691-ND > has > > a > > built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND requires a > > 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according > to > > how bright you want it on the panel. Don't go much > below > > 1200 ohms. > > > > If the attachment is too large I will post it to the > > Jamaican goose thingy. Wayne > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: > reflector@tvbf.org > > > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 AM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > > > > > > Wayne. > > > > How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at > Digikey and got > > > no response. > > > > THANKS! Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: > reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > > > > > > I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string > > (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded > and > > the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red > LED > > (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode > is > > fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode > is > > grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until > > one > > of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow > > through the flashing LED to ground. You should insert a > > normally closed "press to test" switch in the string > > also. > > Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: > PVTPIL8@aol.com > > To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 > 4:18 > > PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire > > detection > > > > > > I've got the fire suppression worked out now were > looking > > for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. > > Wayne or Scott?? > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity > > 173 > > Elite Aircraft Completed > > > > > > > > ===== > > James F. Agnew > > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > > Tampa, FL > > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=Takeoff Contact.jpg > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 03:20:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:20:42 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations Message-ID: <1ef.95dde4b.2bfc3c7a@aol.com> --part1_1ef.95dde4b.2bfc3c7a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott Yes I did note par (19) major changes to the aircraft. I wonder if the owner of old operational limitations may be grandfather in.FAA Order 8130.2 has changed several times .the most recent is E. We noticed that operational limitations must be attached to the special airworthnes certificate and must be carried in the aircraft for pilot reference. And par.128-7 the primary builder must sign of the first conditional inspection. Regards Mack Murphree --part1_1ef.95dde4b.2bfc3c7a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott
  Yes I did note par (19) major changes to the aircraft. I wonder if th= e owner of old operational limitations may be grandfather in.FAA Order 8130.= 2 has changed several times .the most recent is E. We noticed  that ope= rational limitations must be attached to the special airworthnes  certi= ficate and must be carried in the aircraft for pilot reference.
And par.128-7 the primary builder must sign of the first conditional inspect= ion.
  Regards   Mack Murphree --part1_1ef.95dde4b.2bfc3c7a_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 14:23:30 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 07:23:30 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations References: Message-ID: <3ECB7DD2.5010302@tnstaafl.net> Mike, You missed the biggest change. "The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours or for the time the FSDO assigns." Previously the Owner or A&P doing the change set the flight test time. Now the FAA is back in the picture. Somebody who probably knows diddly-squawt about what your doing. My experience of the inspectors at ABQ FSDO is they are a mixed bag. Some good, some bad. I'd rather not risk getting one of the ***holes. Of course the silver lining is that my operating limitation doesn't say this so it doesn't apply to my plane. All the newly papered planes may have this in there O.L. though. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > If using the same flight test area as in the original Phase I Operating > Limitations, the aircraft owner already has permission to use that flight > test area again. If that original flight test area is not available due to > a move of the airplane, etc., then it just makes common sense to notify the > geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area > that you would like to use. A revised Form 8130-6 is only used to update > the FAA database as to the configuration of your experimental licensed > airplane after a major change. Basically, the FAA has just combined > Operating Limitations to make them more clear as to their original intention > of the new 8130.2 change. Go figure... How can anyone be confused by the > FAA wording, or change, or ...;-) > > Mike Pollock > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:29 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations > > > The FAA made a major change to the Operating Limitations section of > 8130.2 Not to the better in my opinion! > > Here's the old one > > (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the > aircraft owner is required to re-establish compliance with § 91.319(b). > All operations will be conducted day VFR in a sparsely populated area. > The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. > Persons non-essential to the flight shall not be carried. The aircraft > owner shall make a detailed log book entry describing the change prior > to the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required > number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot shall certify > in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § > 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft > records with the following or a similarly worded statement: "I certify > that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the > aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and > throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating > characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The > following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the > flight testing: speeds Vso______, Vx______, and Vy______, and the > weight______, and CG location______ at which they were obtained." > > Here's the new one > > (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the > aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with § 91.319(b) > and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the > proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the > FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major > change includes installing a different make and model of engine or > propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to > update the aircraft's file in the FAA Aircraft Registry. All operations > must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. > The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours or for > the time the FSDO assigns. Persons nonessential to the flight must not > be carried. The aircraft owner must make a detailed logbook entry > describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory > completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test > area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been > shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be > recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly > worded, statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have > been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal > range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no > hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. > The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the > flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the > weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained." > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 14:29:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 07:29:20 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection References: <20030521014154.42800.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3ECB7F30.2080608@tnstaafl.net> Jim, Jim Agnew wrote: > Given the airflow thru the cowl I don’t know how effective > a Halon system will be. You will have to flood the cowl I think your right on here. I've been told by a couple fire "experts" that unless you carry a 100lb bottle a halon system in the engine compartment would be pretty useless in flight. On the ground with the plane not moving you might be able to extinguish a fire or at least give you more time to exit the airplane. Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 14:56:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 06:56:20 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection In-Reply-To: <3ECB7F30.2080608@tnstaafl.net> References: <20030521014154.42800.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030521065449.023a80a0@pop.charter.net> At 07:29 AM 5/21/03 -0600, you wrote: >Jim, > >Jim Agnew wrote: >>Given the airflow thru the cowl I don't know how effective >>a Halon system will be. You will have to flood the cowl > >I think your right on here. I've been told by a couple fire "experts" >that unless you carry a 100lb bottle a halon system in the engine >compartment would be pretty useless in flight. > >On the ground with the plane not moving you might be able to extinguish a >fire or at least give you more time to exit the airplane. I've been told the same, without cowl flaps the halon is just blown away. I assume they mean cowl flaps that really close - which I've never seen in a GA airplane. OTOH, a halon system for the instrument panel would be a comfort. From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 15:25:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:25:46 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FA4.DEB34730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. =20 =20 I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? =20 Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long staying" power.=20 =20 Any thoughts? =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FA4.DEB34730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Any recommendations on batteries?  I like sealed units.  

 

I want a primary battery for starting and the usual = ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt = system?

 

Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren’t deep = cycle best for these applications?  = Deep cycles aren’t made for starting but they have “long staying” = power.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FA4.DEB34730-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 15:28:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:28:16 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FA5.382D5CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone ever considered AC in the Velocity? Are they pains in the A$#? =20 Are there efficient aviation units? =20 =20 Any other thoughts on cooling? Anyone ever try fans to move air rapidly. =20 Summers can be dreadful in the cockpit! =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FA5.382D5CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Has anyone ever considered AC in the = Velocity?  Are they pains in the = A$#?

 

Are there efficient aviation units?  

 

Any other thoughts on cooling?  Anyone ever try fans to move = air rapidly.

 

Summers can be dreadful in the = cockpit!

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C31FA5.382D5CC0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 15:40:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:40:42 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Message-ID: --part1_a8.1d3848ff.2bfce9ea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en >>I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you think=20 is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system?<< Well, I used the highly scientific method of taking my battery tray to=20 Wal-mart and finding the sealed battery that fit the tray best.=20 >>Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren=E2=80=99t deep cycle best for thes= e=20 applications?<< Are you using an auto-engine conversion? If you have a mag fired engine a=20 backup battery is just wasted dead weight. The Wal-mart battery that fits=20 your tray will crank you engine for a long, long time (don't ask how I know=20 that :0 ) and more importantly it will run your avionics for a very long=20 time. Longer than your fuel supply will last. So why bother? If you are using an auto engine then never mind, get the backup battery.=20 Rob --part1_a8.1d3848ff.2bfce9ea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en >>I want a primary battery for starting and the=20= usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt= system?<<

Well, I used the highly scientific method of taking my battery tray to Wal-m= art and finding the sealed battery that fit the tray best.

>>Next, I want a back-= up battery ... aren=E2=80=99t deep cycle best for these applications?= <<

Are you using an auto-engine conversion? If you have a mag fired engine a ba= ckup battery is just wasted dead weight. The Wal-mart battery that fits your= tray will crank you engine for a long, long time (don't ask how I know that= :0 ) and more importantly it will run your avionics for a very long time. L= onger than your fuel supply will last. So why bother?

If you are using an auto engine then never mind, get the backup battery.
Rob



 --part1_a8.1d3848ff.2bfce9ea_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 15:46:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:46:00 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0151_01C31F86.2B1DD540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Lincoln installed AC in his. He won a Lindy for workmanship. They wrote it up in Sport Aivation. I believe it was an automotive unit. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:28 AM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? Has anyone ever considered AC in the Velocity? Are they pains in the A$#? Are there efficient aviation units? Any other thoughts on cooling? Anyone ever try fans to move air rapidly. Summers can be dreadful in the cockpit! ------=_NextPart_000_0151_01C31F86.2B1DD540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave=20 Lincoln installed AC in his.  He won a Lindy for workmanship.  = They=20 wrote it up in Sport Aivation.  I believe it was an automotive=20 unit.
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:28 AM
To: = reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR=20 CONDITIONING?

Has anyone ever = considered AC in=20 the Velocity?  Are they pains in the=20 A$#?

 

Are there efficient = aviation=20 units?  

 

Any other thoughts on=20 cooling?  Anyone ever = try fans to=20 move air rapidly.

 

Summers can be dreadful = in the=20 cockpit!

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0151_01C31F86.2B1DD540-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 15:58:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:58:24 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? Message-ID: <145.11e42724.2bfcee10@aol.com> --part1_145.11e42724.2bfcee10_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Has anyone ever considered AC in the Velocity?=A0 << Sure, it's been done. Look back through your VV or get the back issues. (You= =20 do support VV right?) >>Are they pains in the A$#?<< Absolutely! AC is always a pain no matter what kind of plane. Add in the=20 tight cowl of a Velo and the lack of an (otherwise worthless) tail cone area= =20 and a Velocity is a double challenge.=20 AC is bulky and heavy and sucks a lot of electricity (worst of all it still=20 heavy and bulky in the winter) Now, I was toying around with this crazy idea= =20 of taking the self contained AC units you see on the tops of campers and=20 RV's. Taking it apart and rearranging the components into a new=20 self-contained unit built to fit in one of the strake baggage area's. Then=20 when the weather is nice you could remove the unit easily and get rid of tha= t=20 dead weight.=20 >>Are there efficient aviation units? <<=A0 Efficient Air Conditioning is an oxymoron. :-)=A0 >>Summers can be dreadful in the cockpit!<< Yeah, I live in Dallas so I know exactly what you mean!=20 >>Any other thoughts on cooling?=A0 Anyone ever try fans to move air rapidly= .<< Really, it was not too bad. The big gull doors being open help a lot on the=20 ground all though I did miss the prop blast. (put a strap on your passenger=20 door that will hang down when the door is open so you can reach it and pull=20 the door shut while belted into the pilots seat) I also put in a NACA scoop opposite from the nose oil cooler between the=20 battery and the Lanza gear control box. Once you are airborne the blast from= =20 the front NACA and the overhead air plenum really does a great job of moving= =20 air. Better than any spam can. I know of.=20 Rob --part1_145.11e42724.2bfcee10_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>Has anyone ever considered AC in the Velocity?= =A0 <<

Sure, it's been done. Look back through your VV or get the back issues. (You= do support VV right?)

>>Are they pains in the A$#?<<

Absolutely! AC is always a pain no matter what kind of plane. Add in the tig= ht cowl of a Velo and the lack of an (otherwise worthless) tail cone area an= d a Velocity is a double challenge.

AC is bulky and heavy and sucks a lot of electricity (worst of all it still=20= heavy and bulky in the winter) Now, I was toying around with this crazy idea= of taking the self contained AC units you see on the tops of campers and RV= 's. Taking it apart and rearranging the components into a new self-contained= unit built to fit in one of the strake baggage area's. Then when the weathe= r is nice you could remove the unit easily and get rid of that dead weight.=20=

>>Are there efficient=20= aviation units? <<=A0<= BR>
Efficient Air Conditioning i= s an oxymoron. :-)=A0

>>Summers can be dread= ful in the cockpit!<<

Yeah, I live in Dallas so I know exactly what you mean!

>>Any other thoughts o= n cooling?=A0 Anyone ever try fans to move air rapidly.<<

Really, it was not too bad.=20= The big gull doors being open help a lot on the ground all though I did miss= the prop blast. (put a strap on your passenger door that will hang down whe= n the door is open so you can reach it and pull the door shut while belted i= nto the pilots seat)

I also put in a NACA scoop opposite from the nose oil cooler between the bat= tery and the Lanza gear control box. Once you are airborne the blast from th= e front NACA and the overhead air plenum really does a great job of moving a= ir. Better than any spam can. I know of.

Rob --part1_145.11e42724.2bfcee10_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 16:04:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bob Hugel) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:04:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c31faa$4673ee50$1a03a8c0@server01> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C31F88.BFBE02E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I too have been putting some thought on batteries as I build my batter = tray. I'd like some feedback on my thoughts here... I'm considering going with an auto battery which is sized for a honda = civic. The battery is about 30-40% smaller (and lighter) than what is = called for in the manual (chevy battery, I think). But it can be had = with very close CCA spec's and obviously 12v. Because of this size, it = is also much lighter which is a plus.. My only concern is the weight, without the weight of the battery, and I = going to be running in a L&B issue with a much lighter battery in the = front? Any comments? bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On = Behalf Of RJohn15183@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:41 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES >>I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you = think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system?<< Well, I used the highly scientific method of taking my battery tray to = Wal-mart and finding the sealed battery that fit the tray best.=20 >>Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren=E2=80=99t deep cycle best = for these applications?<< Are you using an auto-engine conversion? If you have a mag fired = engine a backup battery is just wasted dead weight. The Wal-mart battery = that fits your tray will crank you engine for a long, long time (don't = ask how I know that :0 ) and more importantly it will run your avionics = for a very long time. Longer than your fuel supply will last. So why = bother? If you are using an auto engine then never mind, get the backup = battery.=20 Rob ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C31F88.BFBE02E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I too=20 have been putting some thought on batteries as I build my batter = tray.  I'd=20 like some feedback on my thoughts here...
 
I'm=20 considering going with an auto battery which is sized for a honda civic. = The=20 battery is about 30-40% smaller (and lighter) than what is called for in = the=20 manual (chevy battery, I think).  But it can be had with very=20 close CCA spec's and obviously 12v.  Because of this size, it = is also=20 much lighter which is a plus..
 
My=20 only concern is the weight, without the weight of the battery, and I = going to be=20 running in a L&B issue with a much lighter battery in the=20 front?
 
Any=20 comments?
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 RJohn15183@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:41=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

>>I want a = primary battery=20 for starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 = amp=20 alternator and 12 volt system?<<

Well, I used the highly=20 scientific method of taking my battery tray to Wal-mart and finding = the sealed=20 battery that fit the tray best.

>>Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren=E2=80=99t = deep cycle best=20 for these applications?<<

Are you=20 using an auto-engine conversion? If you have a mag fired engine a = backup=20 battery is just wasted dead weight. The Wal-mart battery that fits = your tray=20 will crank you engine for a long, long time (don't ask how I know that = :0 )=20 and more importantly it will run your avionics for a very long time. = Longer=20 than your fuel supply will last. So why bother?

If you are = using an=20 auto engine then never mind, get the backup battery.=20

Rob



 ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C31F88.BFBE02E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 16:14:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:14:00 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Message-ID: --part1_ae.4038a46d.2bfcf1b8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About Batteries: I am not flying yet. That said, I have been doing a Lot of research on batteries for my V. I AM using a 4.3L Chevy in mine, and want 2 batteries, but I believe my choice would be the same regardless. I have decided on a recombinant gas battery from B&C (the same guys that make those light weight starters). They are totally sealed, very light, very powerful, can be mounted in any position. They do not require venting, and have fantastic cold starting capabilities (unlike Gel Cells). And, believe it or not.. the price is pretty fair. I am impressed enough with their performance that when I replace the battery in my Cherokee-235 (the world's oldest flying), I will use a B&C battery (YES.. they are certified). Kurt Winker --part1_ae.4038a46d.2bfcf1b8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About Batteries: 

I am not flying yet.  That said, I have been doing a Lot of research o= n batteries for my V.  I AM using a 4.3L Chevy in mine, and want= 2 batteries, but I believe my choice would be the same regardless. 
I have decided on a recombinant gas battery from B&C (the same guys that= make those light weight starters).  They are totally sealed, very ligh= t, very powerful, can be mounted in any position.  They do not require=20= venting, and have fantastic cold starting capabilities (unlike Gel Cells). A= nd, believe it or not.. the price is pretty fair. 

I am impressed enough with their performance that when I replace the battery= in my Cherokee-235 (the world's oldest flying), I will use a B&C batter= y (YES.. they are certified).

Kurt Winker


 --part1_ae.4038a46d.2bfcf1b8_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 16:14:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:14:00 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Message-ID: --part1_ae.4038a46d.2bfcf1b8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About Batteries: I am not flying yet. That said, I have been doing a Lot of research on batteries for my V. I AM using a 4.3L Chevy in mine, and want 2 batteries, but I believe my choice would be the same regardless. I have decided on a recombinant gas battery from B&C (the same guys that make those light weight starters). They are totally sealed, very light, very powerful, can be mounted in any position. They do not require venting, and have fantastic cold starting capabilities (unlike Gel Cells). And, believe it or not.. the price is pretty fair. I am impressed enough with their performance that when I replace the battery in my Cherokee-235 (the world's oldest flying), I will use a B&C battery (YES.. they are certified). Kurt Winker --part1_ae.4038a46d.2bfcf1b8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About Batteries: 

I am not flying yet.  That said, I have been doing a Lot of research o= n batteries for my V.  I AM using a 4.3L Chevy in mine, and want= 2 batteries, but I believe my choice would be the same regardless. 
I have decided on a recombinant gas battery from B&C (the same guys that= make those light weight starters).  They are totally sealed, very ligh= t, very powerful, can be mounted in any position.  They do not require=20= venting, and have fantastic cold starting capabilities (unlike Gel Cells). A= nd, believe it or not.. the price is pretty fair. 

I am impressed enough with their performance that when I replace the battery= in my Cherokee-235 (the world's oldest flying), I will use a B&C batter= y (YES.. they are certified).

Kurt Winker


 --part1_ae.4038a46d.2bfcf1b8_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 16:34:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:34:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES References: <002a01c31faa$4673ee50$1a03a8c0@server01> Message-ID: <007401c31fae$8a2113e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C31F8D.016434E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob, I used a big battery (AutoZone 35-DG for 1995 Toyota) in my Elite 173 RG and I am having to fly with 40 pounds of ballast in the floor of the co-pilot seat due to W&B when I am flying by myself. The 173 wings are heavier and all of this weight is behind the CG. My empty CG and weights are: 127.7 inches 1484 lbs. (I chose this battery as it was a bit narrower and shorter than the GM battery suggested. I had to raise this battery about 1.5 inches off of the battery shelf because the nose gear was hitting the battery when retracted.) Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Hugel To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES I too have been putting some thought on batteries as I build my batter tray. I'd like some feedback on my thoughts here... I'm considering going with an auto battery which is sized for a honda civic. The battery is about 30-40% smaller (and lighter) than what is called for in the manual (chevy battery, I think). But it can be had with very close CCA spec's and obviously 12v. Because of this size, it is also much lighter which is a plus.. My only concern is the weight, without the weight of the battery, and I going to be running in a L&B issue with a much lighter battery in the front? Any comments? bob -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of RJohn15183@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:41 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES >>I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system?<< Well, I used the highly scientific method of taking my battery tray to Wal-mart and finding the sealed battery that fit the tray best. >>Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren’t deep cycle best for these applications?<< Are you using an auto-engine conversion? If you have a mag fired engine a backup battery is just wasted dead weight. The Wal-mart battery that fits your tray will crank you engine for a long, long time (don't ask how I know that :0 ) and more importantly it will run your avionics for a very long time. Longer than your fuel supply will last. So why bother? If you are using an auto engine then never mind, get the backup battery. Rob ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C31F8D.016434E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
 
I used a big battery (AutoZone 35-DG for 1995 = Toyota) in my=20 Elite 173 RG and I am having to fly with 40 pounds of ballast in the = floor of=20 the co-pilot seat due to W&B when I am flying by myself. The 173 = wings are=20 heavier and all of this weight is behind the CG.  My empty CG = and=20 weights are: 127.7 inches 1484 lbs.
 
(I chose this battery as it was a bit narrower and = shorter=20 than the GM battery suggested.  I had to raise this battery about = 1.5=20 inches off of the battery shelf because the nose gear was hitting the = battery=20 when retracted.)
 
Ronnie
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bob=20 Hugel
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

I too=20 have been putting some thought on batteries as I build my batter = tray.  I'd=20 like some feedback on my thoughts here...
 
I'm=20 considering going with an auto battery which is sized for a honda civic. = The=20 battery is about 30-40% smaller (and lighter) than what is called for in = the=20 manual (chevy battery, I think).  But it can be had with very=20 close CCA spec's and obviously 12v.  Because of this size, it = is also=20 much lighter which is a plus..
 
My=20 only concern is the weight, without the weight of the battery, and I = going to be=20 running in a L&B issue with a much lighter battery in the=20 front?
 
Any=20 comments?
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of=20 RJohn15183@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:41=20 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re:=20 REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

>>I want a = primary battery=20 for starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 = amp=20 alternator and 12 volt system?<<

Well, I used the highly=20 scientific method of taking my battery tray to Wal-mart and finding = the sealed=20 battery that fit the tray best.

>>Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren=E2=80=99t = deep cycle best=20 for these applications?<<

Are you=20 using an auto-engine conversion? If you have a mag fired engine a = backup=20 battery is just wasted dead weight. The Wal-mart battery that fits = your tray=20 will crank you engine for a long, long time (don't ask how I know that = :0 )=20 and more importantly it will run your avionics for a very long time. = Longer=20 than your fuel supply will last. So why bother?

If you are = using an=20 auto engine then never mind, get the backup battery.=20

Rob



 ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C31F8D.016434E0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 16:35:07 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:35:07 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES References: Message-ID: <00d901c31fae$8f2baa80$ae19570c@Workshop> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C31F84.A5C437F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Nuckolls makes a strong case for recombinant gas batteries in The = AeroElectric Connection, chapter 2. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:25 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES =20 Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. =20 =20 I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you = think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? =20 Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these = applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long = staying" power.=20 =20 Any thoughts? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C31F84.A5C437F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob Nuckolls makes a strong case for = recombinant=20 gas batteries in The AeroElectric Connection, chapter 2.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 9:25=20 AM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

Any recommendations on=20 batteries?  I like = sealed units.=20  

 

I want a primary battery = for=20 starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp = alternator and 12 volt system?

 

Next, I want a back-up = battery ...=20 aren=92t deep cycle best for these applications?  Deep cycles aren=92t made = for starting=20 but they have =93long staying=94 power.

 

Any=20 thoughts?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_00D6_01C31F84.A5C437F0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 16:37:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:37:43 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Message-ID: <179.1aa2ed86.2bfcf747@aol.com> In a message dated 5/21/03 8:18:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, NMFlyer1@aol.com writes: << I have decided on a recombinant gas battery from B&C (the same guys that make those light weight starters). They are totally sealed, very light, very powerful, can be mounted in any position. They do not require venting, and have fantastic cold starting capabilities (unlike Gel Cells). And, believe it or not.. the price is pretty fair. >> I have been using the B&C recombinant battery for years (4). Before that I used the Delco. I love the B&C, and would highly recommend it. They are picky when it comes to the amount of charging voltage for the best life (14.2-14.6volts). So there linear regulator will do the trick, pricey, but adjustable. In my 3 dealings with B&C, I have found them to be far above what is expected regarding help, and answering stupid questions. From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 19:54:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Paul Calhoun) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:54:51 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection In-Reply-To: <20030521014154.42800.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002901c31fca$75fd3850$3a01a8c0@medamb.org> Jim, Good point about the cause of the fire generally being a broken exhaust pipe. This has been the considerable concern of many of us. I want to be tipped off the moment the pipe breaks, not after a fire has started. One reflectorite reported that he immediately heard the sound of the broken pipe. However this does not always seem to be the case, expecially in a well insulated plane with good headphones and your favorite John Denver? CD blaring. Bill Huene's fire perhaps was such an example. I am in the process of putting thermal coated shields just forward of the downward bend in my forward facing pipes (IO540}. Shields will be attached to the engine mounts. I am planning to place a thermal fuse in the blast stream that would deflect from the broken pipe off the shield. I appreciate your continued feedback. We are all pioneering here. Paul -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:42 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I don't believe that they would be anywhere as effective for the following reasons. First you must accommodate two extremes no or low airflow like idling or taxing and high-speed large airflow and everything in-between. Then you have up or downdraft cooling that must be considered. Given these parameters we can assume that most fires are going to be burning liquid so we will concentrate on those first. At little airflow the burning liquid will (personal experience) flow forward and collect at the low point of the cowl producing a lot of hot gases that will rise and heat the upper cowl near the rear the most. Thus the high mounted rear cowl sensors will most likely trip. With low airflow the heat will also travel rear to exit following the upper cowl and most likely trip the top rear sensors. As airflow increases you will get more of a blowtorch effect out the rear and depending on up or downdraft cooling the upper or lower rear sensors should trip. No lets look at a fiberglass fire where the cowl is burning, it would most likely be caused by an exhaust pipe breaking and burning a hole thru the fiberglass, which will burn. The flame will probably burn both inside and outside the cowl and hopefully burn thru the wires or trip a sensor. Given the airflow thru the cowl I don't know how effective a Halon system will be. You will have to flood the cowl very quickly and with plenum cooling the plenum as well. When I was Flag Marshall for the SCCA I taught fire fighting in racecars and fought a lot. I can tell you that it takes a lot of almost any firefighting agent to put out a gasoline fire and flashbacks are common. Jim --- Paul Calhoun wrote: > Jim, > Would not your eight thermal fuses work just as well > attached to the > engine mounts forward of the engine and attached to the > plenum and > engine bolts in the rear of the engine near the cowling > exhaust? This > would avoid problems arising when the cowls are detached. > The 22g wire > {perhaps 18g)would be suspended in space between > attachment points. Each > fuse would possibly need to be anchored at both ends of > the fuse. > > Just thinking aloud. > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Agnew > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 7:32 AM > To: Velocity Reflector > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > > > Will have to post the picture on the Galery later, it is > too big. > > Jim > --- Jim Agnew wrote: > > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Jim Agnew > > Subject: Fwd: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions > about fire > > detection > > To: Velocity Reflector > > > > Added a low res copy of the picture. > > > > Jim > > > > > > Wayne, > > > > This is exactly the circuit I used several years ago > and > > it > > works well. You need to keep the sensors in the 140 > > degree > > C (284 F) range or a little lower since that is very > hot > > for fiberglass. I used 4 sensors on each cowl half 2 > > front > > about 18" apart under the area behind the engine in > case > > gas or oil ran back burning and two in the rear of the > > cowl > > just forward of the reinforcing ridge about 12" apart > to > > get fire exiting the cowl. The upper cowl has the > > sensors > > in the same place. Obviously this should be looked > upon > > as > > a "possible fire warning" circuit since a sensor or > wire might fail. > > I used #22 tefzel wire and covered all of the > > wire on the cowls with one fine bid leaving the sensor > > body > > exposed. > > > > Now for the real trick, I originally used locking plugs > > on > > each cowl to connect the wires. I quickly found that > > this > > was a real pain and decided to make an automatic > > connector > > so I could just install the cowl haves without worrying about the > > connections. I settled on alarm system > window/sliding door > > Foil Take-off Contact switches (example picture > attached) that you > > should be able to get inexpensively from alarm system > installers. > > They have high > > pressure wiping nickel contacts with one or more > > "fingers", > > depending on the make, and are very dependable. > Install > > the fixed portion on the engine bulkhead and the moving contact on > > the cowl. It will take some trial and error in > > placement and mounting. Mine are mounted on the side > > curve > > of the cowl. > > > > Hope this helps those planning to use this type of > > system. > > > > Jim > > > > > > --- Wayne Owens wrote: Woops. > > What > > Digi-Key calls them now is Thermal Cutoffs. They list a bunch from > > Panasonic for various temperatures in > degrees Centigrade. > > Part numbers are similar to P10925-ND. > > > > > > Flashing LEDs show up in a couple of places L20691-ND > has > > a > > built in resistor for 13 volts 671499-ND requires a > > 1000 to 2000 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series according > to > > how bright you want it on the panel. Don't go much > below > > 1200 ohms. > > > > If the attachment is too large I will post it to the Jamaican goose > > thingy. Wayne > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Ronnie Brown To: > reflector@tvbf.org > > > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 8:53 AM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > > > > > > Wayne. > > > > How about a part number? I did a search on Thermal at > Digikey and got > > > no response. > > > > THANKS! Ronnie > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Owens To: > reflector@tvbf.org > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 6:12 PM > > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about > fire detection > > > > > > I used Thermal fuses (from Digi-Key) in a string > > (series) around likely hot spots. One end is grounded > and > > the other end is tied to the anode of a flashing red > LED > > (also Digi-Key)on my annunciator panel. The LED anode > is > > fed from a resistor tied to positive voltage (cathode > is > > grounded) but the fuse string keeps the anode low until > > one > > of them blows (overheats). That allows current to flow through the > > flashing LED to ground. You should insert a normally closed "press > > to test" switch in the string also. > > Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: > PVTPIL8@aol.com > > To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 > 4:18 > > PM > > Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection > > > > > > I've got the fire suppression worked out now were > looking > > for the early detection. Anyone have some suggestions. > > Wayne or Scott?? > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity > > 173 > > Elite Aircraft Completed > > > > > > > > ===== > > James F. Agnew > > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > > Tampa, FL > > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=Takeoff Contact.jpg > > > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 20:05:33 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (hoffman3@erols.com) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:05:33 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? Message-ID: <410-22003532119533523@M2W074.mail2web.com> Original Message: ----------------- From: Andy Millin amillin@net-link.net Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:46:00 -0400 To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? Dave Lincoln installed AC in his. He won a Lindy for workmanship. They wrote it up in Sport Aivation. I believe it was an automotive unit. From an after market SUZUKE SIDEKICK -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:28 AM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:AIR CONDITIONING? Has anyone ever considered AC in the Velocity? Are they pains in the A$#? Are there efficient aviation units? Any other thoughts on cooling? Anyone ever try fans to move air rapidly. Summers can be dreadful in the cockpit! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 21:39:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:39:41 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations In-Reply-To: <3ECB7DD2.5010302@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Your right. I did miss that little caveat of "or for the time the FSDO assigns". Sneaky little dudes, huh? Our operating limitations for our velocity were updated in 2000, so it does not apply to us either, unless the FAA decides to make it retroactive for all experimentals. Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 8:24 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations Mike, You missed the biggest change. "The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours or for the time the FSDO assigns." Previously the Owner or A&P doing the change set the flight test time. Now the FAA is back in the picture. Somebody who probably knows diddly-squawt about what your doing. My experience of the inspectors at ABQ FSDO is they are a mixed bag. Some good, some bad. I'd rather not risk getting one of the ***holes. Of course the silver lining is that my operating limitation doesn't say this so it doesn't apply to my plane. All the newly papered planes may have this in there O.L. though. Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > If using the same flight test area as in the original Phase I Operating > Limitations, the aircraft owner already has permission to use that flight > test area again. If that original flight test area is not available due to > a move of the airplane, etc., then it just makes common sense to notify the > geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the proposed test area > that you would like to use. A revised Form 8130-6 is only used to update > the FAA database as to the configuration of your experimental licensed > airplane after a major change. Basically, the FAA has just combined > Operating Limitations to make them more clear as to their original intention > of the new 8130.2 change. Go figure... How can anyone be confused by the > FAA wording, or change, or ...;-) > > Mike Pollock > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:29 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:FAA changes Operating Limitations > > > The FAA made a major change to the Operating Limitations section of > 8130.2 Not to the better in my opinion! > > Here's the old one > > (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the > aircraft owner is required to re-establish compliance with § 91.319(b). > All operations will be conducted day VFR in a sparsely populated area. > The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours. > Persons non-essential to the flight shall not be carried. The aircraft > owner shall make a detailed log book entry describing the change prior > to the test flight. Following satisfactory completion of the required > number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot shall certify > in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § > 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) shall be recorded in the aircraft > records with the following or a similarly worded statement: "I certify > that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the > aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and > throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating > characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The > following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the > flight testing: speeds Vso______, Vx______, and Vy______, and the > weight______, and CG location______ at which they were obtained." > > Here's the new one > > (19) After incorporating a major change as described in § 21.93, the > aircraft owner is required to reestablish compliance with § 91.319(b) > and notify the geographically responsible FSDO of the location of the > proposed test area. The aircraft owner must obtain concurrence from the > FSDO as to the suitability of the proposed test area. If the major > change includes installing a different make and model of engine or > propeller, the aircraft owner must fill out a revised Form 8130-6 to > update the aircraft's file in the FAA Aircraft Registry. All operations > must be conducted under day VFR conditions in a sparsely populated area. > The aircraft must remain in flight test for a minimum of 5 hours or for > the time the FSDO assigns. Persons nonessential to the flight must not > be carried. The aircraft owner must make a detailed logbook entry > describing the change before the test flight. Following satisfactory > completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test > area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been > shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be > recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly > worded, statement: "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have > been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal > range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no > hazardous characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. > The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the > flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______, and the > weight ______, and CG location ______ at which they were obtained." > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 00:28:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:28:47 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Navaid and Garmin 430/530? Message-ID: <003601c31ff0$ba92c9a0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C31FCF.3314D340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anybody flying with their Navaid Autopilot coupled to their Garmin 430 or 530? Is your working? I am and I'm having problems with the Porcine coupler not reading the 430's RS-232 data properly. THANKS Ronnie Brown http://home.sprintmail.com/~rolandbrown/page10.html ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C31FCF.3314D340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is anybody flying with their Navaid Autopilot = coupled to their=20 Garmin 430 or 530?  Is your working?
 
I am and I'm having problems with the Porcine = coupler not=20 reading the 430's RS-232 data properly.
 
THANKS
Ronnie Brown
http://home.= sprintmail.com/~rolandbrown/page10.html
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C31FCF.3314D340-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 02:53:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Nolan) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:53:51 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Batteries Message-ID: <001e01c32004$fe9bfea0$6bc262d8@frederick> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C31FD2.B37B47A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Reflectorites, Take a look at Odyssey batteries and make a comment = or two re their suitability for our airplanes. nolan. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C31FD2.B37B47A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Reflectorites,  Take a look at Odyssey = batteries and=20 make a comment or two re their suitability for our = airplanes.
nolan.
 
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C31FD2.B37B47A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 03:13:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:13:49 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES References: Message-ID: <006801c32007$c910fee0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C31FCD.1C012660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not flying yet, nor have I purchased the batteries. I'm planning an = all-electric panel, with a second alternator on the vaccum pump pad. = It's my intent to use two recombinant gas (also known as "sealed = lead-acid") batteries, each approximately half the size and weight of = the car battery called out in the Velocity manual. Then I can buy a new = one at each annual, and move last year's "primary" battery to = "secondary" service. Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:25 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES =20 Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. =20 =20 I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you = think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? =20 Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these = applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long = staying" power.=20 =20 Any thoughts? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C31FCD.1C012660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not flying yet, nor have I = purchased the=20 batteries.  I'm planning an all-electric panel, with a second = alternator on=20 the vaccum pump pad.  It's my intent to use two recombinant gas = (also known=20 as "sealed lead-acid") batteries, each approximately half the size and = weight of=20 the car battery called out in the Velocity manual.  Then I can buy = a new=20 one at each annual, and move last year's "primary" battery to = "secondary"=20 service.
 
Keith Hallsten
    
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 7:25=20 AM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

Any recommendations on=20 batteries?  I like = sealed units.=20  

 

I want a primary battery = for=20 starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp = alternator and 12 volt system?

 

Next, I want a back-up = battery ...=20 aren=92t deep cycle best for these applications?  Deep cycles aren=92t made = for starting=20 but they have =93long staying=94 power.

 

Any=20 thoughts?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C31FCD.1C012660-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 03:28:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: aileron balance (old post) Message-ID: <20030522022851.95314.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: NMFlyer1@aol.com To: reflector@tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2003 <> FWIW- I'm balancing my control surfaces now and had flagged this post from a few months ago for reference. My '98 manual calls for the ailerons to balance cord line level. Painted, mine balance closer to bottom surface level than cord line level. Wanting to be sure on such a critical issue, I called Scott Baker. He was clear that the ailerons should balance in-trail when the plane is leveled (which essentially means cord line level). He said the trailing edge could balance slightly up, just not down... It takes about 8 oz. to get my aileron from bottom surface level to cord line level. Also, I couldn't find any aileron balancing instructions in the new on-line manual - could be that it's now in another chapter. FYI, In terms of elevator balancing, I believe the factory is just adding another 1/2 counterweight to each of the two inboard counterweights and calling it good. Sounds like it's probably overkill, but safe... Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 03:36:51 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: <20030522023651.75431.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry, another old post I flagged for reference that's raising questions in my head: <> Hmmm, I thought the sparrow strainer/inverted wing was meant to act as a pitch dampener - not a trim tab. I just mounted mine using the side templates supplied by the factory (which set the sparrow's incidence) and it has very little angle of attack relative to the elevator. I can't see how this it is going to relieve much spring pressure at any airspeed. Was the 19 degrees of relative incidence a mod?? Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 04:08:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:08:10 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES References: <006801c32007$c910fee0$835ee7cf@quiknet.com> Message-ID: <007c01c3200f$612f6480$9f634ed8@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C31FED.D92B2720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm using two of the B&C style batteries (one bought from a local = battery supplier). During my Condition inspection I reconfirmed the current required to = keep the engine running at mid throttle (alternator breaker pulled). = Then I load tested the batteries one at a time and was pleased to find = that even the two year old one still supplies more than enough juice to = keep the engine running for an hour. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KeithHallsten=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:13 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES I'm not flying yet, nor have I purchased the batteries. I'm planning = an all-electric panel, with a second alternator on the vaccum pump pad. = It's my intent to use two recombinant gas (also known as "sealed = lead-acid") batteries, each approximately half the size and weight of = the car battery called out in the Velocity manual. Then I can buy a new = one at each annual, and move last year's "primary" battery to = "secondary" service. Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:25 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES =20 Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. =20 =20 I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you = think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? =20 Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these = applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long = staying" power.=20 =20 Any thoughts? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C31FED.D92B2720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm using two of the B&C style = batteries (one=20 bought from a local battery supplier).
During my Condition inspection I = reconfirmed=20 the current required to keep the engine running at mid throttle = (alternator=20 breaker pulled). Then I load tested the batteries one at a time and was = pleased=20 to find that even the two year old one still supplies more than enough = juice to=20 keep the engine running for an hour.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KeithHallsten
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 10:13=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

I'm not flying yet, nor have I = purchased the=20 batteries.  I'm planning an all-electric panel, with a second = alternator=20 on the vaccum pump pad.  It's my intent to use two recombinant = gas (also=20 known as "sealed lead-acid") batteries, each approximately half the = size and=20 weight of the car battery called out in the Velocity manual.  = Then I can=20 buy a new one at each annual, and move last year's "primary" battery = to=20 "secondary" service.
 
Keith Hallsten
    
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 7:25=20 AM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

Any recommendations on = batteries?  I like = sealed units.=20  

 

I want a primary = battery for=20 starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 = amp=20 alternator and 12 volt system?

 

Next, I want a back-up = battery=20 ... aren=92t deep cycle best for these applications?  Deep cycles aren=92t made = for starting=20 but they have =93long staying=94 power. =

 

Any=20 thoughts?

 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01C31FED.D92B2720-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 04:24:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:24:25 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Message-ID: <71.310369f0.2bfd9ce9@aol.com> --part1_71.310369f0.2bfd9ce9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith, I am planning the same thing with my V. I am not using a second alternator, however. The way my system is wired, I have 2 separate electrical feeds after the alternator. The alternator is using a fused, solid state RV charging device that isolates any problem batteries from the charging circuit. It also charges the battery that needs it most. Calculating my load, and 2 batteries, I have over 2 hours of flying time should I loose an alternator. Since my personal MEL (minimum equipment list) is 2 batteries and a working alternator, Should any one of the 3 fail, it is time to land and fix it. Kurt Winker --part1_71.310369f0.2bfd9ce9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith,

I am planning the same thing with my V.  I am not using a secon= d alternator, however. The way my system is wired, I have 2 separate electri= cal feeds after the alternator.  The alternator is using a fused= , solid state RV charging device that isolates any problem batteries from th= e charging circuit.  It also charges the battery that needs it most.&nb= sp;
Calculating my load, and 2 batteries, I have over 2 hours of flying time sho= uld I loose an alternator.  Since my personal MEL (minimum equipment li= st) is 2 batteries and a working alternator,  Should any one of the 3 f= ail, it is time to land and fix it.

Kurt Winker

 --part1_71.310369f0.2bfd9ce9_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 05:30:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Noel Gattenby) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:30:55 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Transportation Message-ID: <200305212330.AA1705246880@mail.gbronline.com> Is the guy that transports kits from the factory still on the reflector? If so... please give me a shout at Gattenby@gbronline.com Thanks Noel 3SUV103 From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 10:14:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 04:14:55 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? In-Reply-To: <7918380250.20030514130323@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: I've got a 5# bottle with a pull to discharge cable that is about 10'long, I mounted the bottle in the rear seat area, and will plumb the lines up to the engine compartment when I get the install finished, I received mine from Summit Racing Products - search google for the web site- it was the cheapest that I could find, nice system though, even comes with the lines to plumb into the engine compartment. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 11:03 PM To: PVTPIL8@aol.com Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Fire Suppression Systems ?? Hi PVTPIL8, Wednesday, May 14, 2003, 12:14:53 PM, you wrote: Pac> I am looking for some insight on fire suppression systems. We are finishing Pac> up the engine compartment of my XL-RG and trying to make a decision on a Pac> system. Pac> Has anyone installed one? Pac> What kind? Halon or other? Pac> Manual or automatic? Pac> What CU. FT ? Pac> From Who and about how much?? Pac> Thanks Pac> Steve I have a halon fire bottle mounted in the nose area. A saftey pin must be removed before striking a large knob on the inst panel, this will then discharge ALL the contents of the bottle via aluminium (aluminum) tubing to the engine compartment. I got the complete setup from AS. 'Phoenix' seems to ring a bell. only problem.....can't test it without dumping the halon!! .....steve 173 rge / franklin/ mt -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 13:06:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:06:55 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) References: <20030522023651.75431.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002d01c3205a$a3c8d7e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I believe Steve has this backwards - unless he meant that the sparrow strainer pushes the elevator DOWN which makes the plane go UP. My thinking is that as airspeed decreases, as in pitched up, the airflow decreases and the sparrow strainer pressure is decreased allowing the elevator to go up, and the plane pitches down. And the opposite effect when airspeed increases when the plane is descending, the airflow increases, causing more sparrow strainer pressure, which forces the elevator down, pitching the plane up. All of this helps stabilize the Velocity at a constant pitch trim position. Seems to work! My sparrow strainer chord angle is pointed down (about 15-20 degrees) compared to the elevator. I.e.. the nose of the strainer is pointed down when the elevator is level. Ronnie Brown ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Shea" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:36 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > Sorry, another old post I flagged for reference that's > raising questions in my head: > > < > The sparrow strainer inverted wing has 19 degrees of > incidence relative to the elevator...That is, if the > elevator is set to zero incidence cord line, > then the cord line of the sparrow strainer is set so > the leading edge is up 19 degrees compared to the > trailing edge...That pushes the back of the > elevator up at higher speed...Relieves a lot of trim > spring pressure and gives the stick a much softer > feel... > > Hope that helps...Your mileage may very... > > Steve... > > Standard Wing-RG-MT 3 blade cs prop...>> > > Hmmm, I thought the sparrow strainer/inverted wing was > meant to act as a pitch dampener - not a trim tab. I > just mounted mine using the side templates supplied by > the factory (which set the sparrow's incidence) and it > has very little angle of attack relative to the > elevator. I can't see how this it is going to relieve > much spring pressure at any airspeed. Was the 19 > degrees of relative incidence a mod?? > > Pat > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. > http://search.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 13:21:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:21:34 +0800 Subject: REFLECTOR:Batteries In-Reply-To: <001e01c32004$fe9bfea0$6bc262d8@frederick> References: <001e01c32004$fe9bfea0$6bc262d8@frederick> Message-ID: <9843111687.20030522202134@yahoo.com.au> Thursday, May 22, 2003, 9:53:51 AM, you wrote: N> Hey Reflectorites, Take a look at Odyssey batteries and make a comment or two re their suitability for our airplanes. N> nolan. The Odyssey is in my 173, I think **very** highly of it. My first battery was a general purpose auto battery ... failed during installation and testing of the electrical system. Second Battery an AC Delco (more expensive) lasted almost til the 1st flight (12 mths) The Odyssey (even more expensive) ... hit the start button, Franklin cranks better than it ever did, *always* starts first time Since then I have 'done a deal' with the supplier to get 7 more ! 2 in a Lancair 4P (28v, only battery setup that would turn the gas turbine fast enough to avoid a 'hot start') 1 in a glasair 3 (his 4th and final battery selection) this guy reckons he could taxii on the starter motor 2 in glas=stars ?? 2 in another gas turbine 4P I think they are the best. no. I don't work for odyssey,... no commissions etc... but I can recommend them from my experience. -- Best regards, steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 13:50:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:50:10 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) References: <20030522023651.75431.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> <002d01c3205a$a3c8d7e0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3ECCC782.9090008@tnstaafl.net> Thanks Ronnie, Good explanation. And it does work. I've flown with and without. Flew A NM-CA-NM trip with out the strainer and autopilot. It is certainly flyable without it but easier with. Scott Ronnie Brown wrote: > I believe Steve has this backwards - unless he meant that the sparrow > strainer pushes the elevator DOWN which makes the plane go UP. > > My thinking is that as airspeed decreases, as in pitched up, the airflow > decreases and the sparrow strainer pressure is decreased allowing the > elevator to go up, and the plane pitches down. > > And the opposite effect when airspeed increases when the plane is > descending, the airflow increases, causing more sparrow strainer pressure, > which forces the elevator down, pitching the plane up. > > All of this helps stabilize the Velocity at a constant pitch trim position. > Seems to work! My sparrow strainer chord angle is pointed down (about 15-20 > degrees) compared to the elevator. I.e.. the nose of the strainer is > pointed down when the elevator is level. > > Ronnie Brown > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Shea" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 10:36 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > > > >>Sorry, another old post I flagged for reference that's >>raising questions in my head: >> >><> >>The sparrow strainer inverted wing has 19 degrees of >>incidence relative to the elevator...That is, if the >>elevator is set to zero incidence cord line, >>then the cord line of the sparrow strainer is set so >>the leading edge is up 19 degrees compared to the >>trailing edge...That pushes the back of the >>elevator up at higher speed...Relieves a lot of trim >>spring pressure and gives the stick a much softer >>feel... >> >>Hope that helps...Your mileage may very... >> >>Steve... >> >>Standard Wing-RG-MT 3 blade cs prop...>> >> >>Hmmm, I thought the sparrow strainer/inverted wing was >>meant to act as a pitch dampener - not a trim tab. I >>just mounted mine using the side templates supplied by >>the factory (which set the sparrow's incidence) and it >>has very little angle of attack relative to the >>elevator. I can't see how this it is going to relieve >>much spring pressure at any airspeed. Was the 19 >>degrees of relative incidence a mod?? >> >>Pat >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Do you Yahoo!? >>The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >>http://search.yahoo.com >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit > > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 15:29:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:29:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence Message-ID: >From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? Chuck Jensen XL RG From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 15:39:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:39:52 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Batteries In-Reply-To: <001e01c32004$fe9bfea0$6bc262d8@frederick> Message-ID: <000001c32070$04ab7f80$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32035.584CA780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Reflectorites, Take a look at Odyssey batteries and make a comment or two re their suitability for our airplanes. nolan. That's my choice. Two 18 ah batteries for my redundant system in rotary powered version. Start on both; run on one, one backup. Relatively light and compact; mount in any position. No experience flying yet, but I've had one for 3-years for cycling gear, various testing. Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32035.584CA780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey Reflectorites,  Take a look at = Odyssey batteries and make a comment or two re their suitability for our = airplanes.

nolan.

 

That’s my choice.  Two = 18 ah batteries for my redundant system in rotary powered version.  Start = on both; run on one, one backup.  Relatively light and compact; mount = in any position.  No experience flying yet, but I’ve had one for = 3-years for cycling gear, various testing. 

 

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32035.584CA780-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 16:11:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Nolan) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:11:56 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Batteries References: <001e01c32004$fe9bfea0$6bc262d8@frederick> <9843111687.20030522202134@yahoo.com.au> Message-ID: <002501c32074$7c7a7080$3bc262d8@frederick> Hey, thanks Steve, I was a little undecided. nolan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" To: "Nolan" Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 6:21 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Batteries > > > Thursday, May 22, 2003, 9:53:51 AM, you wrote: > > N> Hey Reflectorites, Take a look at Odyssey batteries and make a comment or two re their suitability for our airplanes. > N> nolan. > > The Odyssey is in my 173, I think **very** highly of it. > My first battery was a general purpose auto battery ... failed during > installation and testing of the electrical system. > > Second Battery an AC Delco (more expensive) lasted almost til the 1st > flight (12 mths) > > The Odyssey (even more expensive) ... hit the start button, Franklin > cranks better than it ever did, *always* starts first time > > Since then I have 'done a deal' with the supplier to get 7 more ! > > 2 in a Lancair 4P (28v, only battery setup that would turn the gas > turbine fast enough to avoid a 'hot start') > > 1 in a glasair 3 (his 4th and final battery selection) this guy > reckons he could taxii on the starter motor > > 2 in glas=stars ?? > > 2 in another gas turbine 4P > > I think they are the best. > > no. I don't work for odyssey,... no commissions etc... > but I can recommend them from my experience. > > -- > Best regards, > steve mailto:steve_beilby@yahoo.com.au > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 16:13:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Nolan) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:13:54 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Batteries References: <000001c32070$04ab7f80$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <003301c32074$c2b45840$3bc262d8@frederick> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C32042.77AC0B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Al. nolan. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Batteries Hey Reflectorites, Take a look at Odyssey batteries and make a = comment or two re their suitability for our airplanes. nolan. That's my choice. Two 18 ah batteries for my redundant system in = rotary powered version. Start on both; run on one, one backup. = Relatively light and compact; mount in any position. No experience = flying yet, but I've had one for 3-years for cycling gear, various = testing. =20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C32042.77AC0B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Al.
nolan.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al=20 Gietzen
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 = 8:39=20 AM
Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Batteries

Hey Reflectorites,  Take = a look at=20 Odyssey batteries and make a comment or two re their suitability for = our=20 airplanes.

nolan.

 

That=92s = my=20 choice.  Two 18 ah batteries for my redundant system in rotary = powered=20 version.  Start on both; run on one, one backup.  Relatively = light=20 and compact; mount in any position.  No experience flying yet, = but I=92ve=20 had one for 3-years for cycling gear, various testing. =20

 

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C32042.77AC0B40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 16:10:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:10:03 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Batteries References: <000001c32070$04ab7f80$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <000801c32074$38e2f900$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C32052.B15BDAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My Soob starts fine on one 17AH battery or the other or both. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 10:39 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Batteries Hey Reflectorites, Take a look at Odyssey batteries and make a = comment or two re their suitability for our airplanes. nolan. That's my choice. Two 18 ah batteries for my redundant system in = rotary powered version. Start on both; run on one, one backup. = Relatively light and compact; mount in any position. No experience = flying yet, but I've had one for 3-years for cycling gear, various = testing. =20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C32052.B15BDAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My Soob starts fine on one 17AH battery = or the=20 other or both.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al=20 Gietzen
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 = 10:39=20 AM
Subject: RE: = REFLECTOR:Batteries

Hey Reflectorites,  Take = a look at=20 Odyssey batteries and make a comment or two re their suitability for = our=20 airplanes.

nolan.

 

That=92s = my=20 choice.  Two 18 ah batteries for my redundant system in rotary = powered=20 version.  Start on both; run on one, one backup.  Relatively = light=20 and compact; mount in any position.  No experience flying yet, = but I=92ve=20 had one for 3-years for cycling gear, various testing. =20

 

Al

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C32052.B15BDAE0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 16:26:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:26:48 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: --part1_ca.1cd525f8.2bfe4638_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree, the strainer has a negative angle of incidence as compared to the elevator. I simply made the airfoil as the templates showed. My plane was constructed at the Velocity Service Center, so am confident that it is correct. The autopilot sometimes does a bit of "seeking" in altitude, and in discussions some have recommended two sparrow strainers (one on each side) as a possible cure. I have not done that yet, but make sure the plane is stablilzed and trimmed before turning on altitude hold. Bob Wood 658SE --part1_ca.1cd525f8.2bfe4638_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree, the strainer has a negative angle of incidenc= e as compared to the elevator. I simply made the airfoil as the templates sh= owed. My plane was constructed at the Velocity Service Center, so am confide= nt that it is correct.

The autopilot sometimes does a bit of "seeking" in altitude, and in discussi= ons some have recommended two sparrow strainers (one on each side) as a poss= ible cure. I have not done that yet, but make sure the plane is stablilzed a= nd trimmed before turning on altitude hold.

Bob Wood
658SE --part1_ca.1cd525f8.2bfe4638_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 16:35:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:35:32 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection Message-ID: <1c0.9f4a4fa.2bfe4844@aol.com> --part1_1c0.9f4a4fa.2bfe4844_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have considered a small color television system with 4 small cameras, two inside the cowl and two outside looking toward the cowl. The field of view also includes the main gear. I am on travel so can not refer you to a web page, but the ones I looked at a year back are small and compact. The screen is about 3x4 inches and would fit easily where the "glove box" is in my panel. One could install a simple rotary switch to control which camera is active. Total cost less that $500 as I recall. My thoughts---"hear a noise or see some change in CHT, etc., take a look inside" I have also toyed with the idea of IR sensors instead of heat sensors. All of this is just idle thinking "The idle brain is the devil's playground" Bob Wood --part1_1c0.9f4a4fa.2bfe4844_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have considered a small color television system with= 4 small cameras, two inside the cowl and two outside looking toward the cow= l. The field of view also includes the main gear.

I am on travel so can not refer you to a web page, but the ones I looked at=20= a year back are small and compact. The screen is about 3x4 inches and would=20= fit easily where the "glove box" is in my panel. One could install a simple=20= rotary switch to control which camera is active.

Total cost less that $500 as I recall.

My thoughts---"hear a noise or see some change in CHT, etc., take a look ins= ide"
I have also toyed with the idea of IR sensors instead of heat sensors.

All of this is just idle thinking "The idle brain is the devil's playground"=

Bob Wood --part1_1c0.9f4a4fa.2bfe4844_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 16:46:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:46:41 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection References: <1c0.9f4a4fa.2bfe4844@aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c32079$57117780$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C32057.CF91FA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They would be great for oil flow and tufting experiments. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking for suggestions about fire detection I have considered a small color television system with 4 small = cameras, two inside the cowl and two outside looking toward the cowl. = The field of view also includes the main gear. I am on travel so can not refer you to a web page, but the ones I = looked at a year back are small and compact. The screen is about 3x4 = inches and would fit easily where the "glove box" is in my panel. One = could install a simple rotary switch to control which camera is active. Total cost less that $500 as I recall. My thoughts---"hear a noise or see some change in CHT, etc., take a = look inside" I have also toyed with the idea of IR sensors instead of heat sensors. All of this is just idle thinking "The idle brain is the devil's = playground" Bob Wood ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C32057.CF91FA80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
They would be great for oil flow and = tufting=20 experiments.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 = 11:35=20 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Looking = for=20 suggestions about fire detection

I have considered a small color television system = with 4=20 small cameras, two inside the cowl and two outside looking toward the = cowl.=20 The field of view also includes the main gear.

I am on travel = so can=20 not refer you to a web page, but the ones I looked at a year back are = small=20 and compact. The screen is about 3x4 inches and would fit easily where = the=20 "glove box" is in my panel. One could install a simple rotary switch = to=20 control which camera is active.

Total cost less that $500 as I=20 recall.

My thoughts---"hear a noise or see some change in CHT, = etc.,=20 take a look inside"
I have also toyed with the idea of IR sensors = instead=20 of heat sensors.

All of this is just idle thinking "The idle = brain is=20 the devil's playground"

Bob Wood=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C32057.CF91FA80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 18:03:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:03:23 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: Ronnie... My sparrow strainer works as a trim tab...The faster I go, the more it pushes the elevator up, keeping the nose down...My sparrow strainer has a positive incidents of about 15 degrees...That is, the cord line angles up from the trailing edge to the leading edge...Are we all confused...??? Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 18:32:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:32:49 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: <40.2f78a72a.2bfe63c1@aol.com> --part1_40.2f78a72a.2bfe63c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why don't we ask Scott Baker? Wood --part1_40.2f78a72a.2bfe63c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why don't we ask Scott Baker?

Wood --part1_40.2f78a72a.2bfe63c1_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 21 23:49:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dean May) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:49:27 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES References: Message-ID: <000001c320a5$ebfc9ec0$15fe7fd8@owc.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0025_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try this one. It is quite small for the power ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:25 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES =20 Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. =20 =20 I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you = think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? =20 Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these = applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long = staying" power.=20 =20 Any thoughts? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Try this one.  It is quite small = for the=20 power
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 9:25=20 AM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

Any recommendations on=20 batteries?  I like = sealed units.=20  

 

I want a primary battery = for=20 starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp = alternator and 12 volt system?

 

Next, I want a back-up = battery ...=20 aren=92t deep cycle best for these applications?  Deep cycles aren=92t made = for starting=20 but they have =93long staying=94 power.

 

Any=20 thoughts?

 

 

------=_NextPart_001_0025_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Recv000.fax" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Recv000.fax" VERGSRAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAERPQ/AeAAAAAAAAIAIAAAD//wEAAAAMAAAAAQDABswAYgADAAEA ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C31FC1.52ECB6A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 22:16:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dean May) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:16:54 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES References: Message-ID: <002d01c320a7$7932b760$15fe7fd8@owc.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C3207D.8F594920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me try this again. My e-mail wouldn't allow me to open the = attachment. Dean May ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:25 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES =20 Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. =20 =20 I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you = think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? =20 Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these = applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long = staying" power.=20 =20 Any thoughts? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C3207D.8F594920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let me try this again.  My = e-mail wouldn't=20 allow me to open the attachment.
 Dean May
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 = 9:25=20 AM
Subject: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

Any recommendations on=20 batteries?  I like = sealed units.=20  

 

I want a primary battery = for=20 starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp = alternator and 12 volt system?

 

Next, I want a back-up = battery ...=20 aren=92t deep cycle best for these applications?  Deep cycles aren=92t made = for starting=20 but they have =93long staying=94 power.

 

Any=20 thoughts?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C3207D.8F594920-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 22:43:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:43:48 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Practice Listening to ATC and Tower! Message-ID: <008e01c320ab$3aacb780$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C32089.B3472B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice live Air Traffic Control site! http://www.atcmonitor.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C32089.B3472B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nice live Air Traffic Control=20 site!

http://www.atcmonitor.com/

------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C32089.B3472B20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 22 23:36:34 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:36:34 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) References: Message-ID: <000e01c320b2$9978bc80$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> HI Steve, Yes, I had been confused about this because the sketch in the manual can be interpreted both ways. Then I recalled your description from an earlier note. Then when I tried to explain it to Jim White, it didn't make sense. Then I verified how the strainer was supposed to be installed when I was at the factory for training back in December. Sure nuff, yours is backwards from the factory. So installed mine like the factory - after my first flight. And it caused the nose to require less up trim, so much so that I don't quite have enough down trim when I am flying by myself and in a power on descent which is higher speed than cruise. But it works great when I have a passenger. Going to Oshkosh this year? Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:03 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > Ronnie... > > My sparrow strainer works as a trim tab...The faster I go, the more it > pushes the elevator up, keeping the nose down...My sparrow strainer has a > positive incidents of about 15 degrees...That is, the cord line angles up > from the trailing edge to the leading edge...Are we all confused...??? > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 00:02:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:02:10 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES In-Reply-To: <002d01c320a7$7932b760$15fe7fd8@owc.net> Message-ID: <003501c320b6$301cb3f0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3208C.4746ABF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this one. www.4x44u.com/pub/k2/am4x44u/installs/bpanther Black Panther Battery. Mine is three years old and flying for 6 months. Works great and very small. Rene' -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Dean May Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Let me try this again. My e-mail wouldn't allow me to open the attachment. Dean May ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Martino To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:25 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES Any recommendations on batteries? I like sealed units. I want a primary battery for starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp alternator and 12 volt system? Next, I want a back-up battery ... aren't deep cycle best for these applications? Deep cycles aren't made for starting but they have "long staying" power. Any thoughts? ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3208C.4746ABF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Try this one.  =

www.4x44u.com/pub/k2/am4x44u/= installs/bpanther

Black Panther Battery.  Mine is three years old and flying for 6 = months.  Works great and very small.

Rene’

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On = Behalf Of Dean May
Sent: Thursday, May 22, = 2003 3:17 PM
To: = reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

Let me try this again.  My e-mail = wouldn't allow me to open the attachment.

 Dean May

----- Original Message = -----

From: Tom Martino

To:<= /font> reflector@www.tvbf.org

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:25 AM

Subject: REFLECTOR:BATTERIES

 

 

Any recommendations on = batteries?  I like sealed units. 

 

I want a primary battery = for starting and the usual ... what do you think is the best with a 60 amp alternator = and 12 volt system?

 

Next, I want a back-up = battery ... aren’t deep cycle best for these applications?  Deep cycles = aren’t made for starting but they have “long staying” power. =

 

Any = thoughts?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C3208C.4746ABF0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 00:06:39 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06:39 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence References: Message-ID: <3ECD57FF.1080607@tnstaafl.net> First bubble to pop is that the aileron fence will not reduce your "planes" stall speed, that's determined by your canard. It would reduce the stall speed of the main wing thus providing an even bigger margin against a Deep Stall. Klaus S. did some testing of this on a long EZ and had good results for increasing lift which would increase your climb rate. It is also supposed to increase effectiveness of the ailerons at slow speed. Search for "Klaus lightspeed" and he has a web page describing the tests and results. I don't know about takeoff distance since your canard will still want to fly at the same speed. If you want to get better take off performance, climb performance, better aileron effectiveness I would highly recommend installing VG's on the main wing and canard. The factory has tested layout templets. YOu can buy the VG's from the factory of from Computer Certainty(I recommend these). Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: >>From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an > inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing > climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise > performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is > the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? > > Chuck Jensen > XL RG > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 00:08:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 16:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522230813.49364.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm, If the strainer only works as a levered airfoil to dampen pitch deviations, then I'm puzzled why it wouldn't be rigged to have a neutral angle of attack (relative to the line of flight) when the elevator is in its typical cruise position. That would mean the strainer would need to have neutral-to-positive incidence relative to the elevator. With negative relative incidence, the strainer will actually increase stick/spring forces the faster you go (essentially like a trim tab bent the wrong way). The inverted airfoil shape only adds to this this effect. Obviously the factory does it this way for a reason - maybe they are looking to lighten trim loads at lower speeds. BTW, my templates leave the strainer incidence open to a little interpretation. I guess it's not critical since builders' are running them from positive 20 degrees to negative 20 degrees... Funny, but sometimes it seems people are hypercritical about some pretty minor stuff, yet we can't even get a consensus on proper control surface balancing or sparrow strainer incidence. Maybe it's just me... Pat --- SlvEgl99@aol.com wrote: > I agree, the strainer has a negative angle of > incidence as compared to the > elevator. I simply made the airfoil as the templates > showed. My plane was > constructed at the Velocity Service Center, so am > confident that it is correct. > > The autopilot sometimes does a bit of "seeking" in > altitude, and in > discussions some have recommended two sparrow > strainers (one on each side) as a > possible cure. I have not done that yet, but make > sure the plane is stablilzed and > trimmed before turning on altitude hold. > > Bob Wood > 658SE > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 06:25:03 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:25:03 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) In-Reply-To: <20030522230813.49364.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pat, The angle of the strainer to the line of flight is not really relevant because at the location of the sparrow strainer, the airflow is following the "elevator" (really flap), not the airflow at the leading edge of the canard, so it will stay relatively at the same angle of attack to the localized flow regardless of both aircraft angle of attack, and flap position. The reason that this airfoil is useful, is because at higher speeds, the flap sees a higher flow velocity, and tries to move upwards into the low pressure area behind the canard ( which would require stick UP/flap down to correct) so the sparrow strainer is inverted to help push the flap down, away from the tendency to float up into the low pressure area - I think that the problem that we are having here is that we think of the "elevator" as an "elevator" when it is actually a lift enhancing device for the canard, and therefore should be referred to as a flap, but since moving it results in pitch change, I can not really argue with the definition, but I think that we all must really think about what is going on aerodynamically to understand the purpose of the trim system. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:08 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Hmmm, If the strainer only works as a levered airfoil to dampen pitch deviations, then I'm puzzled why it wouldn't be rigged to have a neutral angle of attack (relative to the line of flight) when the elevator is in its typical cruise position. That would mean the strainer would need to have neutral-to-positive incidence relative to the elevator. With negative relative incidence, the strainer will actually increase stick/spring forces the faster you go (essentially like a trim tab bent the wrong way). The inverted airfoil shape only adds to this this effect. Obviously the factory does it this way for a reason - maybe they are looking to lighten trim loads at lower speeds. BTW, my templates leave the strainer incidence open to a little interpretation. I guess it's not critical since builders' are running them from positive 20 degrees to negative 20 degrees... Funny, but sometimes it seems people are hypercritical about some pretty minor stuff, yet we can't even get a consensus on proper control surface balancing or sparrow strainer incidence. Maybe it's just me... Pat --- SlvEgl99@aol.com wrote: > I agree, the strainer has a negative angle of > incidence as compared to the > elevator. I simply made the airfoil as the templates > showed. My plane was > constructed at the Velocity Service Center, so am > confident that it is correct. > > The autopilot sometimes does a bit of "seeking" in > altitude, and in > discussions some have recommended two sparrow > strainers (one on each side) as a > possible cure. I have not done that yet, but make > sure the plane is stablilzed and > trimmed before turning on altitude hold. > > Bob Wood > 658SE > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 06:43:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:43:18 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence In-Reply-To: <3ECD57FF.1080607@tnstaafl.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030522223607.02e37ac0@pop.charter.net> It appears from some wind tunnel testing done on a similar wing configuration at NG for the Pegasus follow-on that TE fences do have a small but measurable positive effect. Though they certainly wouldn't change the aoa that the canard stalls at, they appear to increase lift slightly for the main wing at the same aoa. So, the plane would be flying a *little* slower at canard stall. But we're talking very small changes, perhaps a knot. They - in theory - would also decrease TO roll a *little* - but we're talking about single digit feet. Maybe even single digit inches. The increase in aileron effectiveness is a much more significant change. At 05:06 PM 5/22/03 -0600, you wrote: >First bubble to pop is that the aileron fence will not reduce your >"planes" stall speed, that's determined by your canard. It would reduce >the stall speed of the main wing thus providing an even bigger margin >against a Deep Stall. > >Klaus S. did some testing of this on a long EZ and had good results for >increasing lift which would increase your climb rate. It is also supposed >to increase effectiveness of the ailerons at slow speed. Search for "Klaus >lightspeed" and he has a web page describing the tests and results. > >I don't know about takeoff distance since your canard will still want to >fly at the same speed. > >If you want to get better take off performance, climb performance, better >aileron effectiveness I would highly recommend installing VG's on the main >wing and canard. > >The factory has tested layout templets. YOu can buy the VG's from the >factory of from Computer Certainty(I recommend these). > >Scott > >Chuck Jensen wrote: >> From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an >>inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing >>climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise >>performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is >>the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? >>Chuck Jensen >>XL RG >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 13:40:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:40:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence Message-ID: Thanks for both comments. Now that I think about it, Scotts explanation about the canard being the limiting factor, not the main wings (since they don't stall---usually), then, an ever so slight improvement in lift on the main wing is not going to do much, if anything, for the overall performance, per Richard. I still suffer from Piperistis and Cessenatosis thinking. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of richard@riley.net Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:43 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence It appears from some wind tunnel testing done on a similar wing configuration at NG for the Pegasus follow-on that TE fences do have a small but measurable positive effect. Though they certainly wouldn't change the aoa that the canard stalls at, they appear to increase lift slightly for the main wing at the same aoa. So, the plane would be flying a *little* slower at canard stall. But we're talking very small changes, perhaps a knot. They - in theory - would also decrease TO roll a *little* - but we're talking about single digit feet. Maybe even single digit inches. The increase in aileron effectiveness is a much more significant change. At 05:06 PM 5/22/03 -0600, you wrote: >First bubble to pop is that the aileron fence will not reduce your >"planes" stall speed, that's determined by your canard. It would reduce >the stall speed of the main wing thus providing an even bigger margin >against a Deep Stall. > >Klaus S. did some testing of this on a long EZ and had good results for >increasing lift which would increase your climb rate. It is also supposed >to increase effectiveness of the ailerons at slow speed. Search for "Klaus >lightspeed" and he has a web page describing the tests and results. > >I don't know about takeoff distance since your canard will still want to >fly at the same speed. > >If you want to get better take off performance, climb performance, better >aileron effectiveness I would highly recommend installing VG's on the main >wing and canard. > >The factory has tested layout templets. YOu can buy the VG's from the >factory of from Computer Certainty(I recommend these). > >Scott > >Chuck Jensen wrote: >> From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an >>inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing >>climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise >>performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is >>the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? >>Chuck Jensen >>XL RG >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 13:43:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:43:09 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Transportation Message-ID: There is a fellow currently working at the Factory on a project for another fellow that hauls kits for Velocity and some other fellows. He is Dan Fast, Fast Aircraft Delivery, (glad his name wasn't Slow) and he can be reached at 772-473-6090. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Noel Gattenby Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 12:31 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Transportation Is the guy that transports kits from the factory still on the reflector? If so... please give me a shout at Gattenby@gbronline.com Thanks Noel 3SUV103 _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 14:29:04 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 07:29:04 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence References: Message-ID: <3ECE2220.30000@tnstaafl.net> Is Rodney Brim still on this group? He's had flow fences on his Velocity for over a year? Scott Chuck Jensen wrote: > Thanks for both comments. Now that I think about it, Scotts explanation > about the canard being the limiting factor, not the main wings (since they > don't stall---usually), then, an ever so slight improvement in lift on the > main wing is not going to do much, if anything, for the overall performance, > per Richard. I still suffer from Piperistis and Cessenatosis thinking. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of richard@riley.net > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:43 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence > > > It appears from some wind tunnel testing done on a similar wing > configuration at NG for the Pegasus follow-on that TE fences do have a > small but measurable positive effect. > > Though they certainly wouldn't change the aoa that the canard stalls at, > they appear to increase lift slightly for the main wing at the same > aoa. So, the plane would be flying a *little* slower at canard stall. But > we're talking very small changes, perhaps a knot. They - in theory - would > also decrease TO roll a *little* - but we're talking about single digit > feet. Maybe even single digit inches. The increase in aileron > effectiveness is a much more significant change. > > > At 05:06 PM 5/22/03 -0600, you wrote: > >>First bubble to pop is that the aileron fence will not reduce your >>"planes" stall speed, that's determined by your canard. It would reduce >>the stall speed of the main wing thus providing an even bigger margin >>against a Deep Stall. >> >>Klaus S. did some testing of this on a long EZ and had good results for >>increasing lift which would increase your climb rate. It is also supposed >>to increase effectiveness of the ailerons at slow speed. Search for "Klaus >>lightspeed" and he has a web page describing the tests and results. >> >>I don't know about takeoff distance since your canard will still want to >>fly at the same speed. >> >>If you want to get better take off performance, climb performance, better >>aileron effectiveness I would highly recommend installing VG's on the main >>wing and canard. >> >>The factory has tested layout templets. YOu can buy the VG's from the >>factory of from Computer Certainty(I recommend these). >> >>Scott >> >>Chuck Jensen wrote: >> >>>From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than >> > an > >>>inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing >>>climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise >>>performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or >> > is > >>>the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? >>>Chuck Jensen >>>XL RG >>>_______________________________________________ >>>To change your email address, visit >>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >>>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>To change your email address, visit >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector >> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 15:26:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (kc) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:26:49 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:PZL Franklin Message-ID: <000a01c32137$5c0bc920$d112f218@elp.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C32105.0E11B360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ??Does anyone have any information about the availability of PZL = Franklin engines?? ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C32105.0E11B360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
??Does anyone have any = information=20 about the availability of PZL Franklin = engines??
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C32105.0E11B360-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 15:48:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:48:01 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:PZL Franklin References: <000a01c32137$5c0bc920$d112f218@elp.rr.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C32110.66047F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try www.franklinengines.com=20 Larry Coen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: kc=20 To: Reflector=20 Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 9:26 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:PZL Franklin ??Does anyone have any information about the availability of PZL = Franklin engines?? ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C32110.66047F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Try www.franklinengines.com =
 
Larry Coen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 kc
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 9:26 = AM
Subject: REFLECTOR:PZL = Franklin

??Does anyone have = any=20 information about the availability of PZL Franklin=20 engines??
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C32110.66047F70-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 15:53:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:53:52 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: Given what Ronnie just posted, would it be wise to try a flight without it ... if the Velocity 173 RG ... has an IO-540? -----Original Message----- From: Ronnie Brown [mailto:romott@adelphia.net] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:37 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) HI Steve, Yes, I had been confused about this because the sketch in the manual can be interpreted both ways. Then I recalled your description from an earlier note. Then when I tried to explain it to Jim White, it didn't make sense. Then I verified how the strainer was supposed to be installed when I was at the factory for training back in December. Sure nuff, yours is backwards from the factory. So installed mine like the factory - after my first flight. And it caused the nose to require less up trim, so much so that I don't quite have enough down trim when I am flying by myself and in a power on descent which is higher speed than cruise. But it works great when I have a passenger. Going to Oshkosh this year? Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:03 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > Ronnie... > > My sparrow strainer works as a trim tab...The faster I go, the more it > pushes the elevator up, keeping the nose down...My sparrow strainer has a > positive incidents of about 15 degrees...That is, the cord line angles up > from the trailing edge to the leading edge...Are we all confused...??? > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 16:01:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:01:18 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling things down References: <3ECE2220.30000@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <3ECE37BE.1060207@tnstaafl.net> Well I was testing out some modifications to my air diverter to see if I could bring the temps down on #2 & #1 cylinders yesterday. I had also made some modifications to the cowling baffles. Good news is I reduced the Cylinder temps across the board by about 10 degrees, bad news is the temp differential between the cylinders stayed the same. We had our hottest day this summer season. Well above average, it was 90 at the airport when I took off and was almost 70 degrees at 10500. Good day to test cooling problems!! EGT Question! Somebody had mentioned insuring the EGT's were in line and I had said they were. Well, it appears that wasn't the case. At 50 LOP #1 cylinder, EGT 1350 CHT 350 #2 cylinder, EGT 1360 CHT 365 #3 cylinder, EGT 1315 CHT 320 #4 cylinder, EGT 1300 CHT 305 Seems like a definite correlation between egt and cht, maybe a coincidence but I don't think so. So the first order of business is to get the EGT's in line. I have an IO360. Seems like changing the nozzles in #1 & #2 to richer(larger orifice) or changing #3 & #4 to leaner(smaller orifice) should do the trick. My parts manual says the LW-18265 nozzles for a IO-360-CIC come in A, B and C sizes. You are supposed to have all A's or all B's etc. installed. The A's are the larger orifice, the C the smallest. I'm not sure which are installed on my engine yet to determine which way I should go. Anybody know where I can buy these in lots of 1 or two? I would like to avoid buying a whole set. OIL COOLER QUESTION! My oil temp at the highest power setting to maintain max RPM 2700-2730 at 50 LOP would cause my oil temps to be in the range of 220-228 in cruise. I don't like this at all. 210 is fine, and I see that all winter/spring, but above that I start to worry. I realize that getting the EGT's down for #1 will probably lower the oil temps some. However I would like to consider how to install a secondary oil cooler. Perma-Cool http://www.perma-cool.com/index.html seems to have some nicely made small size coolers. They also have a thermostat that bypass's the cooler until the temps get to 180 degrees, a must for a secondary cooler so it doesn't interfere during the winter months. Couple questions. a.) What is the oil flow rate for a IO360 at 2700 RPM? I can't find it in the engine manual. b.) Where have people put their secondary coolers? c.) Anybody using a fan/cooler combo like Perma-Cool sells? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 16:44:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:44:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling things down References: <3ECE2220.30000@tnstaafl.net> <3ECE37BE.1060207@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: <001101c32142$22465a60$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Scott, Try the folks at http://www.airflowperformance.com/ These guys are sharp and they can do power balancing similar to what Gami does (cheaper, I think, but I haven't actually had them do this yet.) I did buy my aux fuel pump and fuel filter from them. Impressive shop and calibrated air flow and fuel flow benches! Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:01 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Cooling things down > Well I was testing out some modifications to my air diverter to see if I > could bring the temps down on #2 & #1 cylinders yesterday. I had also > made some modifications to the cowling baffles. Good news is I reduced > the Cylinder temps across the board by about 10 degrees, bad news is the > temp differential between the cylinders stayed the same. > > > We had our hottest day this summer season. Well above average, it was 90 > at the airport when I took off and was almost 70 degrees at 10500. > > Good day to test cooling problems!! > > EGT Question! > > Somebody had mentioned insuring the EGT's were in line and I had said > they were. Well, it appears that wasn't the case. > > At 50 LOP > > #1 cylinder, EGT 1350 CHT 350 > #2 cylinder, EGT 1360 CHT 365 > #3 cylinder, EGT 1315 CHT 320 > #4 cylinder, EGT 1300 CHT 305 > > Seems like a definite correlation between egt and cht, maybe a > coincidence but I don't think so. So the first order of business is to > get the EGT's in line. I have an IO360. Seems like changing the > nozzles in #1 & #2 to richer(larger orifice) or changing #3 & #4 to > leaner(smaller orifice) should do the trick. My parts manual says the > LW-18265 nozzles for a IO-360-CIC come in A, B and C sizes. You are > supposed to have all A's or all B's etc. installed. The A's are the > larger orifice, the C the smallest. I'm not sure which are installed on > my engine yet to determine which way I should go. > > Anybody know where I can buy these in lots of 1 or two? I would like to > avoid buying a whole set. > > OIL COOLER QUESTION! > > My oil temp at the highest power setting to maintain max RPM 2700-2730 > at 50 LOP would cause my oil temps to be in the range of 220-228 in > cruise. I don't like this at all. 210 is fine, and I see that all > winter/spring, but above that I start to worry. I realize that getting > the EGT's down for #1 will probably lower the oil temps some. > However I would like to consider how to install a secondary oil cooler. > Perma-Cool http://www.perma-cool.com/index.html seems to have some > nicely made small size coolers. They also have a thermostat that > bypass's the cooler until the temps get to 180 degrees, a must for a > secondary cooler so it doesn't interfere during the winter months. > > Couple questions. > > a.) What is the oil flow rate for a IO360 at 2700 RPM? I can't find it > in the engine manual. > b.) Where have people put their secondary coolers? > c.) Anybody using a fan/cooler combo like Perma-Cool sells? > > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 16:51:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:51:40 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) References: Message-ID: <001701c32143$339c1ba0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Tom, The strainer doesn't make that drastic of a difference. I'd be more concerned about CG. The CG and what is loaded in the front seats makes a much bigger difference. Like, for my plane 173 Elite RG IO360, when I'm by myself and 40 lbs ballast in the floor, 1" down elevator for take off; 2" down when there is 400 lbs in the front seats. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > Given what Ronnie just posted, would it be wise to try a flight without > it ... if the Velocity 173 RG ... has an IO-540? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ronnie Brown [mailto:romott@adelphia.net] > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:37 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > > HI Steve, > > Yes, I had been confused about this because the sketch in the manual can > be > interpreted both ways. Then I recalled your description from an earlier > note. Then when I tried to explain it to Jim White, it didn't make > sense. > > Then I verified how the strainer was supposed to be installed when I was > at > the factory for training back in December. Sure nuff, yours is > backwards > from the factory. So installed mine like the factory - after my first > flight. And it caused the nose to require less up trim, so much so that > I > don't quite have enough down trim when I am flying by myself and in a > power > on descent which is higher speed than cruise. But it works great when I > have > a passenger. > > Going to Oshkosh this year? > Ronnie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve korney" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:03 PM > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) > > > > Ronnie... > > > > My sparrow strainer works as a trim tab...The faster I go, the more it > > pushes the elevator up, keeping the nose down...My sparrow strainer > has a > > positive incidents of about 15 degrees...That is, the cord line angles > up > > from the trailing edge to the leading edge...Are we all confused...??? > > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 16:55:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:55:46 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Transportation Message-ID: <43.1d27ccb5.2bff9e82@aol.com> --part1_43.1d27ccb5.2bff9e82_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: I'm travis Holland and I made the deliveries for velocity for about six years before Dan took over. My butt was about numb. If things don't work out with dan i have to go to Arkansas In the first part of July and will be returning through Memphis. I might be able to pick up the wings and take them to airlink for you. Let me know if this would work out...travis 772-633-3757 --part1_43.1d27ccb5.2bff9e82_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi: I'm travis Holland and I made the deliveries for v= elocity for about six years before Dan took over.  My butt was about nu= mb.  If things don't work out with dan i have to go to Arkansas In the=20= first part of July and will be returning through Memphis. I might be able to= pick up the wings and take them to airlink for you. Let me know if this wou= ld work out...travis   772-633-3757 --part1_43.1d27ccb5.2bff9e82_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 18:34:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:34:06 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: I would recommend you fly without it first...Then, when you put it on, you'll have first hand information on the subject...We have all had different experiences...I made mine adjustable so that in cruise, I had plenty of up and down trim... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 18:59:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 17:59:45 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 19:18:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030523181850.99604.qmail@web41313.mail.yahoo.com> Steve, this can't be possible, Tim died in his LongEz crash months ago so who was flying the plane. Jim --- steve korney wrote: > Let be careful out there... > > > IDENTIFICATION > Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: > EXP- VELOCITY > Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 > > Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid > Air: N Missing: N > Damage: Minor > > LOCATION > City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US > > DESCRIPTION > DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT > M29 (CLIFTON, TN). > FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN > > INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 > # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 > Min: 0 Unk: > # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 > Min: 0 Unk: > # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 > Min: 0 Unk: > > WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 > A3007 > > OTHER DATA > Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: > General Aviation > > Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: > 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: > 1600 > Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE > Wx Briefing: > Y > Last Radio Cont: NONE > Last Clearance: NONE > > FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry > date: 05/23/2003 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Check for printing > N-number : N6Q > Aircraft Serial Number : 384 > Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE > Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR > Model : UNKNOWN ENG > Aircraft Year : 1998 > Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN > IDAHO FALLS, ID, > 83404-8108 > Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 > Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental > Approved Operations : Amateur Built > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 19:41:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 11:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030523184132.19891.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alex, I was thinking the reason the strainer is offset down and back below the elevator/flap is to get it out of the localized flow. It's not offset much, so you're probably right. Thanks for the explanation. Pat --- Alexander Balic wrote: > Pat, > The angle of the strainer to the line of flight is > not really relevant > because at the location of the sparrow strainer, the > airflow is following > the "elevator" (really flap), not the airflow at the > leading edge of the > canard, so it will stay relatively at the same angle > of attack to the > localized flow regardless of both aircraft angle of > attack, and flap > position. The reason that this airfoil is useful, is > because at higher > speeds, the flap sees a higher flow velocity, and > tries to move upwards into > the low pressure area behind the canard ( which > would require stick UP/flap > down to correct) so the sparrow strainer is inverted > to help push the flap > down, away from the tendency to float up into the > low pressure area - I > think that the problem that we are having here is > that we think of the > "elevator" as an "elevator" when it is actually a > lift enhancing device for > the canard, and therefore should be referred to as a > flap, but since moving > it results in pitch change, I can not really argue > with the definition, but > I think that we all must really think about what is > going on aerodynamically > to understand the purpose of the trim system. > > Alex __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 20:29:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:29:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: So, who ever it was flying, we're glad to hear there was no injury and that the damage to the plane was minimal though the ego will likely require some repair. Like all unfortunate incidents, there are lessons to be learned. By happenstance, I was at the Factory a week ago Tuesday when N6Q was at the shop for a check over. I was speaking with N6Q's new owner when a Velocity employee came over and a discussion ensured about what needed to be done on the plane. The Factory fellow was quite direct in his feelings that the quality of the wiring work and its organization was less than satisfactory and that it should be redone asap. Without a doubt, no one envisioned that an electrical failure was so imminent, or they would never have allowed the plane to leave and the owner would never have flown it. The loss of electrical power may have been totally unrelated to the observed wiring shortcomings, but, you have it admit, it's quite a coincidence. So, if your A&P or Factory Rep mentions that something needs to be fixed, they aren't necessarily just drumming up business. Chuck N27GV -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 2:19 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Steve, this can't be possible, Tim died in his LongEz crash months ago so who was flying the plane. Jim --- steve korney wrote: > Let be careful out there... > > > IDENTIFICATION > Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: > EXP- VELOCITY > Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 > > Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid > Air: N Missing: N > Damage: Minor > > LOCATION > City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US > > DESCRIPTION > DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT > M29 (CLIFTON, TN). > FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN > > INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 > # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 > Min: 0 Unk: > # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 > Min: 0 Unk: > # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 > Min: 0 Unk: > > WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 > A3007 > > OTHER DATA > Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: > General Aviation > > Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: > 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: > 1600 > Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE > Wx Briefing: > Y > Last Radio Cont: NONE > Last Clearance: NONE > > FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry > date: 05/23/2003 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Check for printing > N-number : N6Q > Aircraft Serial Number : 384 > Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE > Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR > Model : UNKNOWN ENG > Aircraft Year : 1998 > Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN > IDAHO FALLS, ID, > 83404-8108 > Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 > Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental > Approved Operations : Amateur Built > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 20:44:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:44:59 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: <1e9.96b47cd.2bffd43b@aol.com> Why was this even reported? These kind of things really hurt us all. A friend was riding in a EZ a couple weeks ago considering buying in as a partner, when the owner/pilot "hit hard" on landing(my personal opinion was that he stalled the canard). The right gear broke off, the nose gear collapsed, and wheel faring parts were strewn about the runway, but no one got hurt. This was at Steve's airport (HHR) w/tower. The runway (only one) was closed down for an hour while things were cleaned up. No one hurt, no report was filed. Another friend landed his Lancair wheels up, at another tower airport, and again no report was filed. Both of these guys insurance still paid off. What are the conditions that require a fender bender to be reported? TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 22:00:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:00:19 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system works properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition inspection time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of a power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex www.mycozy.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM To: Reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 00:09:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:09:54 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike, I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work perfectly, and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus the airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the nitrogen spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the gear was down but not locked???????? Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system works properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition inspection time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of a power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex www.mycozy.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM To: Reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 00:43:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jean Prudhomme) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:43:37 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash References: Message-ID: <007401c32185$21870690$0101a8c0@yourm3vezyx8af> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C32163.9A4F40F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I always install a spring on the nose gear in case the gas spring fail = and the free fall response is very positif 5 Velocity been flying with = this spring.When the gas spring leak nothing can tell you when happen. Jean Prudhomme ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alexander Balic=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:09 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Mike, I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work = perfectly, and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus = the airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the = nitrogen spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the = gear was down but not locked???????? Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system = works properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition = inspection time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event = of a power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex www.mycozy.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM To: Reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N = Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, = TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 = Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 = Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 = Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General = Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. = Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx = Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: = 05/23/2003 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ---- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit = http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C32163.9A4F40F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I always = install a spring=20 on the nose gear in case the gas spring fail and the free fall response = is very=20 positif 5 Velocity been flying with this spring.When the gas spring leak = nothing=20 can tell you when happen.
Jean=20 Prudhomme
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Alexander=20 Balic
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 7:09 = PM
Subject: RE:=20 REFLECTOR:Incident/crash

Mike,
I was just going to post the same thing..... = the dump=20 should work perfectly,
and in mine, the nose gear is down and = locked before=20 the mains, plus the
airflow should help it also, so this is = puzzling......=20 unless the nitrogen
spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage = over=20 center, so the gear was
down but not=20 locked????????

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of Mike Pollock
Sent: = Friday,=20 May 23, 2003 3:00 PM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: = RE:=20 REFLECTOR:Incident/crash


Also make sure that your landing = gear=20 emergency hydraulic dump system works
properly.  It should be = tested=20 regularly and at annual condition inspection
time.  The dump = system=20 was designed to get the gear down in the event of a
power = failure.  I=20 wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do!

Michael=20 Pollock
Flying Velocity N173DT
Building Cozy MKIV #643
EAA=20 #411862
EAA Chapter #1246
Technical Counselor #4357
Based at = TKI / NE=20 Dallas Metroplex
www.mycozy.com

-----Original = Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of steve korney
Sent: = Friday,=20 May 23, 2003 1:00 PM
To: Reflector@tvbf.org
Subject:=20 REFLECTOR:Incident/crash


Let be careful out=20 there...


IDENTIFICATION
  Regis#:=20 6Q        Make/Model:=20 EXP      Description: EXP- VELOCITY
  = Date:=20 05/22/2003     Time: 2030

  Event = Type:=20 Incident   Highest Injury: None     Mid = Air:=20 N    Missing: N
  Damage:=20 Minor

LOCATION
  City: CLIFTON   State:=20 TN   Country: US

DESCRIPTION
  DUE TO LOSS OF = ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN).
  = FRONT GEAR=20 FAILED TO DEPLOY.  CLIFTON, TN

INJURY=20 DATA      Total Fatal:  =20 = 0
           &n= bsp;    =20 # Crew:   1     Fat:  =20 0     Ser:   0    =20 Min:   0    =20 = Unk:
           = ;     =20 # Pass:   0     Fat:  =20 0     Ser:   0    =20 Min:   0    =20 = Unk:
           = ;     =20 # Grnd:         = Fat:  =20 0     Ser:   0    =20 Min:   0     Unk:

WEATHER: METAR = KMKL=20 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007

OTHER DATA
  = Activity:=20 Pleasure      Phase:=20 Landing      Operation: General=20 Aviation

  Departed: YAZOO=20 = CITY,MS           =    =20 Dep Date: 05/22/2003   Dep. Time:
1600
  = Destination: NEW=20 YORK CITY, NY        Flt Plan:=20 NONE         Wx=20 Briefing:
Y
  Last Radio Cont: NONE
  Last = Clearance:=20 NONE

  FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN =20 = (SO03)           &= nbsp;    =20 Entry date:=20 = 05/23/2003


---------------------------------------------------= -------------------------
----
Check=20 for=20 = printing
N-number         = ;            =  =20 : N6Q
Aircraft Serial=20 Number         : = 384
Aircraft=20 Manufacturer          : = CRAWFORD=20 TIMOTHY L
        =20 = Model           &n= bsp;    =20 : VELOCITY RG ELITE
Engine  =20 Manufacturer          :=20 AMA/EXPR
        =20 = Model           &n= bsp;    =20 : UNKNOWN ENG
Aircraft=20 = Year           &nb= sp;     =20 : 1998
Owner=20 = Name           &nb= sp;        =20 : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L
Owner=20 = Address           =       =20 : 447 SPRINGWOOD=20 = LN
           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;        =20 IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108
Registration=20 = Date           &nb= sp; =20 : 04-Mar-1998
Airworthiness Certificate Type : = Experimental
Approved=20 = Operations          &nb= sp; :=20 Amateur Built






Best...=20 = Steve

____________________________________________________________= _____
MSN=20 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?= page=3Dfeatures/virus

________________________________________= _______
To=20 change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose

_______________________________________________=
To=20 change your email address, visit
http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery! =20 = tvbf:jamaicangoose


___________________________________________= ____
To=20 change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/reflector

Visit=20 the gallery!  tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C32163.9A4F40F0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 01:21:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:21:45 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash References: Message-ID: <3ECEBB19.4040504@tnstaafl.net> Jeez, you gotta wonder why there was even an incident filled out for this? Glad my homeport is not monitored by a Nazi. Scott steve korney wrote: > Let be careful out there... > > > IDENTIFICATION > Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY > Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 > > Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N > Damage: Minor > > LOCATION > City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US > > DESCRIPTION > DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). > FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN > > INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 > # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: > # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: > # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: > > WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 > > OTHER DATA > Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation > > Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: > 1600 > Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx > Briefing: Y > Last Radio Cont: NONE > Last Clearance: NONE > > FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Check for printing > N-number : N6Q > Aircraft Serial Number : 384 > Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE > Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR > Model : UNKNOWN ENG > Aircraft Year : 1998 > Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN > IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 > Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 > Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental > Approved Operations : Amateur Built > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 01:25:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 18:25:48 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash References: Message-ID: <3ECEBC0C.5000704@tnstaafl.net> Well, New owner in a new plane.... I wonder if he had acquainted himself with the emergency procedures? Scott Mike Pollock wrote: > Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system works > properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition inspection > time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of a > power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! > > Michael Pollock > Flying Velocity N173DT > Building Cozy MKIV #643 > EAA #411862 > EAA Chapter #1246 > Technical Counselor #4357 > Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex > www.mycozy.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of steve korney > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM > To: Reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > > Let be careful out there... > > > IDENTIFICATION > Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY > Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 > > Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N > Damage: Minor > > LOCATION > City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US > > DESCRIPTION > DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). > FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN > > INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 > # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: > # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: > # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: > > WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 > > OTHER DATA > Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation > > Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: > 1600 > Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: > Y > Last Radio Cont: NONE > Last Clearance: NONE > > FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Check for printing > N-number : N6Q > Aircraft Serial Number : 384 > Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE > Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR > Model : UNKNOWN ENG > Aircraft Year : 1998 > Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN > IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 > Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 > Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental > Approved Operations : Amateur Built > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 02:25:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 19:25:15 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:IS THIS A NEW TREND? Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32193.546D48FC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently purchased BRAND NEW king radios from Sarasota Avionics. =20 They came without trays? =20 Don't trays normally come with new radios? =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32193.546D48FC Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I recently purchased BRAND NEW king radios from = Sarasota Avionics.

 

They came without trays?

 

Don’t trays normally come with new = radios?

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32193.546D48FC-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 03:05:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:05:54 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Practice Listening to ATC and Tower! In-Reply-To: <008e01c320ab$3aacb780$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3216F.190E2630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit very cool Ronnie! thanks........ -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Practice Listening to ATC and Tower! Nice live Air Traffic Control site! http://www.atcmonitor.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3216F.190E2630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
very=20 cool Ronnie! thanks........
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:44 PM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Practice Listening to = ATC and=20 Tower!

Nice live Air Traffic Control=20 site!

http://www.atcmonitor.com/

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C3216F.190E2630-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 03:50:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 20:50:53 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:IS THIS A NEW TREND? References: Message-ID: <3ECEDE0D.9080803@tnstaafl.net> Yes they do, I think your were had. Were they in original box's like that? Unless this is some ploy if King to keep the price the same but make the tray extra? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 05:37:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 00:37:57 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: <146.1213ba04.2c005125@aol.com> --part1_146.1213ba04.2c005125_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read a very interesting article in the March GA Flyer concerning what must be reported as an accident. I knew of some of the requirements, but not all. The copy is at work and I won't have it for another week. I would suggest that Everyone read it... or if you like I will retype it and post it on the reflector. Being the airport manager here at E-98, I have been contacted for 2 separate gear up landings. On the first, the C-310 was not damaged too badly and the pilot asked me if he should contact the FAA. I asked him if he was injured (he said no), and told him the damage looked minor to me, so we got his bird off the runway and sent him on his way. The second one... the pilot was already on the phone to the FAA when I arrived at the scene. There were no injuries, and about the same amount of damage, but the pilot that called the FAA sure built himself some Major Headaches. That same GA flyer had some very good info on Ramp Checks, security items, etc. Definitely worth reading!. Kurt Winker. --part1_146.1213ba04.2c005125_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read a very interesting article in the March GA Flye= r concerning what must be reported as an accident.  I knew of some of t= he requirements, but not all.  The copy is at work and I won't have it=20= for another week. 
I would suggest that Everyone read it... or if you like I will retype it and= post it on the reflector. 

Being the airport manager here at E-98, I have been contacted for 2 separate= gear up landings.  On the first, the C-310 was not damaged too badly a= nd the pilot asked me if he should contact the FAA.  I asked him if he=20= was injured (he said no), and told him the damage looked minor to me, so we=20= got his bird off the runway and sent him on his way. 
The second one... the pilot was already on the phone to the FAA when I arriv= ed at the scene.  There were no injuries, and about the same amount of=20= damage, but the pilot that called the FAA sure built himself some Major Head= aches. 

That same GA flyer had some very good info on Ramp Checks,  security it= ems, etc.  Definitely worth reading!.

Kurt Winker. --part1_146.1213ba04.2c005125_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 05:43:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:43:50 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:IS THIS A NEW TREND? In-Reply-To: <3ECEDE0D.9080803@tnstaafl.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030523214143.03aa5930@pop.charter.net> Where do you think people get extra trays to use when they buy stolen radios? Call King. Complain loudly. If it was one radio that came without a tray it could have been a mistake somewhere upstream. If it was more than one, that's exactly what's going on, and King needs to have a serious talk with Sarasota. At 08:50 PM 5/23/03 -0600, you wrote: >Yes they do, I think your were had. > >Were they in original box's like that? Unless this is some ploy if King >to keep the price the same but make the tray extra? > >Scott > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 05:50:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:50:42 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030523214417.03aa0ec0@pop.charter.net> At 06:09 PM 5/23/03 -0500, you wrote: >Mike, >I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work perfectly, >and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus the >airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the nitrogen >spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the gear was >down but not locked???????? I'm an outsider here (and grateful for your letting me hang out) but if you folks are using gas springs for gear overcenter springs, you should know about one of the failure modes. We used gas springs for gear overcenter and canopies on the prototype Berkut, and when we talked to a rep from The Gas Spring Company (that was really their name) they specifically asked about using them in the gear, because that's what Lancair was doing. It turns out that if a little chunk of seal breaks off inside the cylinder, it can get lodged in the orifice and totally lock a gas spring in both directions. We ended up making cylinders with springs and plungers that worked basically the same way as a gas spring, but without the damping. That failure mode is rare, but the rep had a picture of a car hood creased at the gas spring attach point, where someone had tried to force it down against a locked spring. He said it was about a 1-1000 failure mode. Just thought I'd let you know, I don't know if the Velocity design would still let you lower the gear with a locked gas spring in the system. From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 06:20:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:20:20 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: Jim... That's why it got my attention... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 06:24:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 05:24:53 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: Tec... I'm at (KFUL) Fullerton... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 14:26:26 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:26:26 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Alex, Having the gas spring go dead is a very high possibility. I just replaced another one the other day. This makes two in 5 years. The old one would not put the nose gear over-center without the hydraulic pressure. Now it does. A good indication that the gas spring is going bad is that the nose gear light flickers during taxi. At least this is the way it works on our velocity. By the way, the velocity is back up and flying with good oil pressure and gear. Yahoo..... Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 6:10 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Mike, I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work perfectly, and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus the airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the nitrogen spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the gear was down but not locked???????? Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system works properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition inspection time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of a power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex www.mycozy.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM To: Reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 15:03:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 07:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Do you have waving needles or changing numbers on your gauges Message-ID: <20030524140325.50691.qmail@web41314.mail.yahoo.com> This is a little heads up FYI. If your gauges (e.g., pressure, temperature, quantity) change when you turn on your strobes, boost pump, etc. then check your senders. If they are single wire (i.e., grounded by their mounting) or two wire where the ground is local to the sender then you have created a ground loop. There is a simple cure (maybe); the gauge ground and the sender ground should be at the same point. This could be a headache with single wire senders so I would avoid them unless the gauge maker guarantees they will work and be stable. Jim ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 15:15:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 09:15:45 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike, I'll bet you are glad to have it back and flying! it has been a while! I'm still a way out, probably behind Dave because I was working for a while on a new door latch system that would work with my extended strakes, but I finally have it done (on one door at least) uses the old style handle - like you have- and a short aileron push/pull cable to circumnavigate the large cutout in the door- works well though, now just need to figure out how to lock the thing- engine is hung but not turning, and my seats are at an upholsterer being fabricated, so at least it is moving in the right direction, but I need to spend more time on it for sure........... About the gas spring, I suppose that a manual dump test should be performed at some interval to make sure that everything is still in working order, do you have any suggestions? just at annual, or monthly? I've copied your aircraft Jacks, so it is easy to lift it to check........ Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Hello Alex, Having the gas spring go dead is a very high possibility. I just replaced another one the other day. This makes two in 5 years. The old one would not put the nose gear over-center without the hydraulic pressure. Now it does. A good indication that the gas spring is going bad is that the nose gear light flickers during taxi. At least this is the way it works on our velocity. By the way, the velocity is back up and flying with good oil pressure and gear. Yahoo..... Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 6:10 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Mike, I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work perfectly, and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus the airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the nitrogen spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the gear was down but not locked???????? Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system works properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition inspection time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of a power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex www.mycozy.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM To: Reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 16:48:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:48:52 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3220b$fc136520$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C321D1.4FB48D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having the gas spring go dead is a very high possibility. I just = replaced another one the other day. This makes two in 5 years. The gas I have went dead about 6 mo after I installed the gear system; = long before the plane would ever fly (it still hasn't). Using a gas spring = there never made any sense to me. It is guaranteed to fail, is difficult to replace, and the reason to use a gas cylinder (damping) doesn't exist = here because to system is already damped by the hydraulic cylinder. =20 I decided long ago that I would replace it with a standard spring before = I fly, and figured by then someone else would come up with a design. I = was sure that someone, and presumably the factory; would have done that by = now, and shared it with the rest of us. Still waiting. =20 Al ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C321D1.4FB48D20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IjgPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHBQAYAAkAMAAAAAYANgEB A5AGAHwOAAAtAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAPAAAASW5jaWRlbnQvY3Jhc2gAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAHDIgv5tZO4W52rckaD m6Dg9nSj2moAAAIBHQwBAAAAHgAAAFNNVFA6QUxWRU5UVVJFU0BFTUFJTC5NU04uQ09NAAAACwAB DgAAAABAAAYOACAhPBQiwwECAQoOAQAAABgAAAAAAAAA8wb8P1PTEEy7HWZdBzd4t8KAAAADABQO AAAAAAsAHw4BAAAAHgAoDgEAAAAmAAAAMDAwMDAwMDIBYWx2ZW50dXJlc0BlbWFpbC5tc24uY29t AU1TTgAAAB4AKQ4BAAAAJgAAADAwMDAwMDAyAWFsdmVudHVyZXNAZW1haWwubXNuLmNvbQFNU04A AAACAQkQAQAAAIoJAACGCQAAhBcAAExaRnUyg+RAAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUaMgxgYwBQAQRzdHPiaAVw YmNoDvUJAA+HZmgN4A+WYmkBQwtgbpEOEDAzMxGmZmUSIj8B9wKkA2MCAA+ACsBzZUJ0AtFwcnEy 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try to locate them, I would rather have a small "clunk" sound to reassure me that the linkage is over center anyway... > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 9:49 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > > Having the gas spring go dead is a very high possibility. I just replaced > another one the other day. This makes two in 5 years. > > The gas I have went dead about 6 mo after I installed the gear system; > long before the plane would ever fly (it still hasn't). Using a gas > spring there never made any sense to me. It is guaranteed to fail, is > difficult to replace, and the reason to use a gas cylinder (damping) > doesn't exist here because to system is already damped by the hydraulic > cylinder. > > I decided long ago that I would replace it with a standard spring before I > fly, and figured by then someone else would come up with a design. I was > sure that someone, and presumably the factory; would have done that by > now, and shared it with the rest of us. Still waiting. > > Al ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C321E8.47AEE780 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IhUQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHBQAYAAwAIQAAAAYAKgEB A5AGAGwJAAAnAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAPAAAASW5jaWRlbnQvY3Jhc2gAAAIBcQABAAAAGwAAAAHDIgv5tZO4W52rckaD m6Dg9nSj2moAAXp9QAACAR0MAQAAABoAAABTTVRQOkFMRVgxNTdARElSRUNXQVkuQ09NAAAACwAB DgAAAABAAAYOAG50hRoiwwECAQoOAQAAABgAAAAAAAAACyUn9O6/3BG7gADgKV30TMKAAAALAB8O AQAAAAIBCRABAAAAxwQAAMMEAAASBwAATFpGdW4Qn/gDAAoAcmNwZzEyNRYyAPgLYG4OEDAzM/kO xmZlD0IB9wKkA+MCAARjaArAc2V0MCAfBxMCgwBQA1QCAHBycdsOUBG4TgdwA2BkAoMTweMRVROd VGFoA3ECgw9waxVfEfRWBJBkAHAXEX2zCoAIyCA7CW8OMDUaf5cKYAKACoF2CJB3awuAtGQ0DGBj AFALA2MS4kELxCBJIHRoC4BrnR9BYQVAH1AEkGUgBAAoIGEgBaBtCrBueXsfpADAaweRIJABAB1A Y5sgQACQbQMQCsF0bx/yaCBnYQQgcxOQC4Bn0CwgYnUFQHUSACBx8wOgANB0dQdAI5UgUAOgAyAF AIB0ZWFkIG/WZiMTAwB0A2BnCfAgoN8R0SeQJAAfMAPwbAMgJ2B3IREjAAkAYx/QIEAgAW1rKDMI YGwmsHIf0CARIG0R0HYgQCCQcwDAKJEi9mMKQB+AIiJgCGAdoCLi+xvgI3BzCHAgQAeAH6cpIO0f cWEnkCBSbysQBcAiQIcCMCrBIPF3YXkuL/CfCqIKhAqECzAuIDM2AUD3HnABQBOQbyaAJPAS0wvw PDQgAzAPBDKwFRQxNtQgLTQSTwUQZwuAJSH6TQeQcy5hNBMwJjH0McGDCxMx9mktMTQ0AUBxLiAx ODABQAzQN7NitCBGA2E6AzAMkmISMG8b4A7wMiEFsC0moCKQbsBAdHZiZi4FsCWgblsAwAMQIvA6 Oe869V3fCuMKgTjgBmACMDo5ZgYQqyUAGSF5JABNL9AgMrAHJAAB0A9QIDk6NDn1EkBNPZdUO9A5 bzrXPZgYdWJqMiE+Z1JFRgBMRUNUT1I6SdhuY2kBAAIwLwUAI3D+aDAsNj8yIjFEDwcyZA5Q/TAz SCsAJYIjLCNQIwABAB8moSBjLuEhEB9gZ2gg5HBvBBBpYgMQJ1Av4Psy0B8waiRgBUAb4AtRIkD/ CzEwQgBwMgAqsgIgKYMmwHcqoz9BTbFUH2AEICGEdOMqICWyNSB5JpAR8DAWfx5wScUXUVDhI0Qf MCrzd/8vMUu0AaAIYAVAM/AEYCCA/wGAKsEfMCZSK4EJgCMUUkFlImB5JnFtOykhJZFi/wEQBbBP 1AtRT8EqJCIQKsHbDvAhECgnUCJgdCiCEdCgc24ndClNsVUAkP8lkSCQSukgBE/ALuIAwAEA/y+C ImAJ8BIAIuIHgE2yBUB9IGFnJRAqgC9BVwIjAGa3O5EkACBhZAaQN4BjKkD/H+Essk5zJAAAcFcU LNICIOci4iRhXCVjeS4hBIFagNcZMCDQI9EpIfBvB5BbYf1Z8HgEAAVAIBNYkClQY4LXIvFXxCBT bCzRZCEQZMKNVwFiIRIgQGh5ZCqA/ypADeBkF02xMCofMAWBRZH/JrBYQy5gIwIf0SoHTmQgUP8F QAPwH1ArMgGQHaALESVG/1iVHzBaUWJEN4BfkBvhaLXPA6AsQAeAT7JlbF6BKiRzILEgQHVwbeYB AACQZ/5uTbMvwCOBLSIfs3GFYkT7E5AHkHUAwAJgaNRgcDxC/nlYICokKvNlUE/DH9Fowf1PQHdi REYgCsBXAW3GYqTvTiEm0SRgTbFTWuMvwCdQuyPRal1BCVAwMxmRAH4QAB4AQhABAAAAJwAAADww MDAwMDFjMzIyMGIkZmMxMzY1MjAkNjQwMGE4YzBAQmlnQWw+AAALAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAA4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAHgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAACdqAQAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA5 LjAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AC4AIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4hQAAAQAA AAEAAAAAAAAACwANgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAALADqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAPIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwA9gAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAALAFKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAMA U4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAAAgH4DwEAAAAQAAAACyUn9O6/3BG7gADgKV30 TAIB+g8BAAAAEAAAAAslJ/Tuv9wRu4AA4Cld9EwCAfsPAQAAAJwAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgA KypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEAqgA32W4AAABDOlxEb2N1bWVudHMgYW5k IFNldHRpbmdzXEFsZXggQmFsaWNcTG9jYWwgU2V0dGluZ3NcQXBwbGljYXRpb24gRGF0YVxNaWNy b3NvZnRcT3V0bG9va1xvdXRsb29rLnBzdAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/AAEAAAA0AAAAPE5N QkJMTElBQUxNRkFPS0pCS1BESUVCUENKQUEuYWxleDE1N0BkaXJlY3dheS5jb20+AAMABhARCmc4 AwAHEN4DAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASVRISU5LVEhBVFRIRVJFSVNBQ09N UEFOWVRIQVRNQUtFU0FERVZJQ0VTSU1JTEFSVE9USEVHQVNTUFJJTkcsQlVUVVNFU0FOQUNUVUFM U1BSSU5HSU5USEVSRUlOU1RFQURPRgAAAAC1WQ== ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C321E8.47AEE780-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 18:47:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 11:47:44 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Message-ID: I have extra large strakes in the doors and use a double cam system. The forward rod passes almost straight down to the second cam. The second cam (bottom one) activates the two bottom latches. I will send you a rough sketch. -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Balic [mailto:alex157@direcway.com] Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 8:16 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Mike, I'll bet you are glad to have it back and flying! it has been a while! I'm still a way out, probably behind Dave because I was working for a while on a new door latch system that would work with my extended strakes, but I finally have it done (on one door at least) uses the old style handle - like you have- and a short aileron push/pull cable to circumnavigate the large cutout in the door- works well though, now just need to figure out how to lock the thing- engine is hung but not turning, and my seats are at an upholsterer being fabricated, so at least it is moving in the right direction, but I need to spend more time on it for sure........... About the gas spring, I suppose that a manual dump test should be performed at some interval to make sure that everything is still in working order, do you have any suggestions? just at annual, or monthly? I've copied your aircraft Jacks, so it is easy to lift it to check........ Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Hello Alex, Having the gas spring go dead is a very high possibility. I just replaced another one the other day. This makes two in 5 years. The old one would not put the nose gear over-center without the hydraulic pressure. Now it does. A good indication that the gas spring is going bad is that the nose gear light flickers during taxi. At least this is the way it works on our velocity. By the way, the velocity is back up and flying with good oil pressure and gear. Yahoo..... Mike -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 6:10 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Mike, I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work perfectly, and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus the airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the nitrogen spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the gear was down but not locked???????? Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Mike Pollock Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:00 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system works properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition inspection time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of a power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex www.mycozy.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM To: Reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Let be careful out there... IDENTIFICATION Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N Damage: Minor LOCATION City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US DESCRIPTION DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, TN). FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 OTHER DATA Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General Aviation Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. Time: 1600 Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: Y Last Radio Cont: NONE Last Clearance: NONE FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ---- Check for printing N-number : N6Q Aircraft Serial Number : 384 Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR Model : UNKNOWN ENG Aircraft Year : 1998 Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental Approved Operations : Amateur Built Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 21:00:13 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (douglas holub) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash References: Message-ID: <000f01c3222f$176506d0$951c570c@Workshop> Send one to me, too, please? Doug Holub doug.holub@att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Martino" To: Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > I have extra large strakes in the doors and use a double cam system. > The forward rod passes almost straight down to the second cam. The > second cam (bottom one) activates the two bottom latches. I will send > you a rough sketch. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexander Balic [mailto:alex157@direcway.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 8:16 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > Mike, > > I'll bet you are glad to have it back and flying! it has been a while! > I'm > still a way out, probably behind Dave because I was working for a while > on a > new door latch system that would work with my extended strakes, but I > finally have it done (on one door at least) uses the old style handle - > like > you have- and a short aileron push/pull cable to circumnavigate the > large > cutout in the door- works well though, now just need to figure out how > to > lock the thing- engine is hung but not turning, and my seats are at an > upholsterer being fabricated, so at least it is moving in the right > direction, but I need to spend more time on it for sure........... About > the > gas spring, I suppose that a manual dump test should be performed at > some > interval to make sure that everything is still in working order, do you > have > any suggestions? just at annual, or monthly? I've copied your aircraft > Jacks, so it is easy to lift it to check........ > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Pollock > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 7:26 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > > Hello Alex, > > Having the gas spring go dead is a very high possibility. I just > replaced > another one the other day. This makes two in 5 years. The old one > would > not put the nose gear over-center without the hydraulic pressure. Now > it > does. A good indication that the gas spring is going bad is that the > nose > gear light flickers during taxi. At least this is the way it works on > our > velocity. > > By the way, the velocity is back up and flying with good oil pressure > and > gear. Yahoo..... > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Alexander Balic > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 6:10 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > > Mike, > I was just going to post the same thing..... the dump should work > perfectly, > and in mine, the nose gear is down and locked before the mains, plus the > airflow should help it also, so this is puzzling...... unless the > nitrogen > spring was dead, and unable to push the linkage over center, so the gear > was > down but not locked???????? > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Pollock > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 3:00 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > > Also make sure that your landing gear emergency hydraulic dump system > works > properly. It should be tested regularly and at annual condition > inspection > time. The dump system was designed to get the gear down in the event of > a > power failure. I wonder why it did not do what it was supposed to do! > > Michael Pollock > Flying Velocity N173DT > Building Cozy MKIV #643 > EAA #411862 > EAA Chapter #1246 > Technical Counselor #4357 > Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex > www.mycozy.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of steve korney > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:00 PM > To: Reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > > > Let be careful out there... > > > IDENTIFICATION > Regis#: 6Q Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- VELOCITY > Date: 05/22/2003 Time: 2030 > > Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: > N > Damage: Minor > > LOCATION > City: CLIFTON State: TN Country: US > > DESCRIPTION > DUE TO LOSS OF ELECTRICAL POWER, PILOT WAS LANDING AT M29 (CLIFTON, > TN). > FRONT GEAR FAILED TO DEPLOY. CLIFTON, TN > > INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0 > # Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 > Unk: > # Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 > Unk: > # Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 > Unk: > > WEATHER: METAR KMKL 221953Z 35011KMT 10SM FEW045 23/13 A3007 > > OTHER DATA > Activity: Pleasure Phase: Landing Operation: General > Aviation > > Departed: YAZOO CITY,MS Dep Date: 05/22/2003 Dep. > Time: > 1600 > Destination: NEW YORK CITY, NY Flt Plan: NONE Wx > Briefing: > Y > Last Radio Cont: NONE > Last Clearance: NONE > > FAA FSDO: NASHVILLE, TN (SO03) Entry date: 05/23/2003 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > ---- > Check for printing > N-number : N6Q > Aircraft Serial Number : 384 > Aircraft Manufacturer : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Model : VELOCITY RG ELITE > Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR > Model : UNKNOWN ENG > Aircraft Year : 1998 > Owner Name : CRAWFORD TIMOTHY L > Owner Address : 447 SPRINGWOOD LN > IDAHO FALLS, ID, 83404-8108 > Registration Date : 04-Mar-1998 > Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental > Approved Operations : Amateur Built > > > > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 22:03:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:03:36 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32237.F18B9BFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32237.F18B9BFD Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I like using a common grounding block but lately I = have had trouble finding them.  = I’m talking about the brass or metal block with multiple terminals on them ... they = are commonly called “Neutral Blocks”, “Earthing = Blocks”, “Grounding Blocks”.

 

I searched the internet and can not find one online = direct seller in the US= .

 

Anyone have a good = source?

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32237.F18B9BFD-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 22:40:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:40:06 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: Message-ID: <002a01c3223d$0b02fb00$ca294ed8@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C3221B.8372B520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on variety at one time. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble = finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple = terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", = "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in = the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C3221B.8372B520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on = variety at one=20 time.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING = BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I=92m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = =93Neutral=20 Blocks=94, =93Earthing Blocks=94, =93Grounding = Blocks=94.

 

I searched the internet = and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C3221B.8372B520-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 23:21:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Craig and/or Denise Woolston) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:21:49 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andy- I know this comes late in the discussion, but might as well add logs to the great seat hardpoint bonfire... We are building a XL-FG also and got bit by the hardpoints in the wrong place. I can try and tell you what we have done (over a year ago), but we have not tried to install the seats with foam and such. For reference our orginal manual says, Date May 01, 1997 XLF-16 pg. 10-6 27" from canard bulkhead, 6-5/8 and 14-1/8 off centerline for front hardpoints 45.5" from canard bulkhead, 6-1/8 and 14 off centerline for rear hardpoints. the new manual update says, Dated Feb 2003, 06-XLF pg. 6-12 35" from canard bulkhead, 7.5 and 15 off centerline for the front hardpoints 45 from canard bulkhead, 7 and 14.5 off centerline for the rear hardpoints what we did was put the rear hardpoints where it says in our orginal manual and used the seat frame to locate front. We made it parallel to the keel so the seat should run freely. I have heard that there were different types of seat adjusters that might have added confusion also. Ours have ball bearing slides, I heard some peoples were just sq. tube sliding inside of bigger sq. tube. So to fix the problem with the rear hardpoint being on top of the speed brake, we used a bigger hardpoint (2x5 inches), that we will ultilze for both the seat and the angle bracket to the keel. I've "heard" you have to shim the right rear seat attachment anyway so this brings that point up. This bigger hardpoint was then just glass over the top of speed brake hindges hardpoint. I will check the plane the next time I'm at my partner's house (I only have wings here) if needed. Craig From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 23:21:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:21:32 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: <002a01c3223d$0b02fb00$ca294ed8@mshome.net> Message-ID: <002501c32242$d52a2200$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C32208.286694C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Test ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wayne Owens=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 2:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on variety at one time. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble = finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple = terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", = "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in = the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C32208.286694C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Test
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 2:40=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on = variety at=20 one time.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I=92m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = =93Neutral=20 Blocks=94, =93Earthing Blocks=94, =93Grounding = Blocks=94.

 

I searched the = internet and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C32208.286694C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 23:14:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:14:01 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: <002a01c3223d$0b02fb00$ca294ed8@mshome.net> Message-ID: <002401c32242$d5103160$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C32207.1B39E3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html It's the Aeroelectric Connection - B&C Products joint on-line catalog. = 24-tab and 48-tab ground blocks are near the bottom, under = "Miscellaneous Wiring Supplies". Keith =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wayne Owens=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 2:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on variety at one time. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble = finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple = terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", = "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in = the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C32207.1B39E3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, see http://www.ae= roelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
 
It's the Aeroelectric Connection - = B&C=20 Products joint on-line catalog.  24-tab and 48-tab ground blocks = are near=20 the bottom, under "Miscellaneous Wiring Supplies".
 
Keith
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 2:40=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on = variety at=20 one time.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I=92m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = =93Neutral=20 Blocks=94, =93Earthing Blocks=94, =93Grounding = Blocks=94.

 

I searched the = internet and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C32207.1B39E3C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 23:22:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bill) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:22:43 -0500 (Central Daylight Time) Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: Message-ID: <3ECFF0B3.00001E.04008@Medsker1> --------------Boundary-00=_VTWEP4J1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D I've found that truck parts stores have a selection of these and heavy du= ty switches. Fuse blocks the same as B & C sells.. =0D =0D Bill Medsker=0D I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble findi= ng them. I=92m talking about the brass or metal block with multiple termina= ls on them ... they are commonly called =93Neutral Blocks=94, =93Earthing Block= s=94, =93Grounding Blocks=94.=0D =0D =0D =0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_VTWEP4J1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
I've found that truck parts stores have a selection of these and hea= vy duty switches.  Fuse blocks the same as B & C sells..
 
Bill Medsker

I like using a common grounding block but lat= ely I have had trouble finding them.&nb= sp; I=92m talking about the brass or metal block with multiple ter= minals on them ... they are commonly called =93Neutral Blocks=94, =93Eart= hing Blocks=94, =93Grounding Blocks=94.

 

 

 

 
--------------Boundary-00=_VTWEP4J1VA4000000000-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 24 23:24:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (KeithHallsten) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:24:32 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: <002a01c3223d$0b02fb00$ca294ed8@mshome.net> Message-ID: <003401c32243$3fca94a0$4ec05dd8@quiknet.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C32208.93396200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, Yes, see http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html It's the joint Aeroelectric / B&C Products on-line catalog. The Fast-on = ground blocks are near the bottom, under "Miscellaneous Wiring = Supplies". Keith Hallsten =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wayne Owens=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 2:40 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on variety at one time. Wayne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble = finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple = terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", = "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in = the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C32208.93396200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
 
Yes, see http://www.ae= roelectric.com/Catalog/BCcatalog.html
It's the joint Aeroelectric / B&C = Products=20 on-line catalog.  The Fast-on ground blocks are near the bottom, = under=20 "Miscellaneous Wiring Supplies".
 
Keith Hallsten
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wayne=20 Owens
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 2:40=20 PM
Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

Bob Nuckolls had some of the fast on = variety at=20 one time.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I=92m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = =93Neutral=20 Blocks=94, =93Earthing Blocks=94, =93Grounding = Blocks=94.

 

I searched the = internet and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

= ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C32208.93396200-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 01:03:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (William Wade) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:03:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: Message-ID: <005101c32251$0e8fb420$521aa43f@chipmunk> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C3222F.86CE9A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I made my own out of old brass hinges with brass screws tapped and = silver soldered- very compact and high density. Wicks has MS terminal strips in 3/8, -10, -8 and -6 lugs. They also = sell companion buss bar strips which bond the terminals as well as = fiberglass covers. I used them on the Navion.=20 The avionics shop likes to use what they call "porcupines"- an array = of quick disconnect tabs arranged in arcs, mounted on a block- perhaps = 36 tabs in groups of six. The arcs can be used individually or ganged = together- they're being used for the panel lighting connections so that = things can be changed easily among multiple dimmer circuits. These are = Cessna parts- I haven't gotten the bill yet but they were less than $20 = per as I remember. Radio Shack sells quick-disconnect terminal blocks and matching = bonding strips- I just unscrew the tab assemblies, bolt three together = temporarily so the tabs are in a circle, then solder them. I use these = for ground points -Bill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble = finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple = terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", = "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in = the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C3222F.86CE9A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  I made my own out of old brass = hinges with=20 brass screws tapped and silver soldered- very compact and high=20 density.
  Wicks has MS terminal strips in = 3/8, -10, -8=20 and -6 lugs. They also sell companion buss bar strips which bond = the=20 terminals as well as fiberglass covers. I used them on the=20 Navion. 
  The avionics shop likes to use = what they=20 call "porcupines"- an array of quick disconnect tabs arranged in arcs, = mounted=20 on a block- perhaps 36 tabs in groups of six. The arcs can be used=20 individually or ganged together- they're being used for the panel = lighting=20 connections so that things can be changed easily among multiple dimmer = circuits.=20 These are Cessna parts- I haven't gotten the bill yet but they = were less=20 than $20 per as I remember.
  Radio Shack = sells quick-disconnect=20 terminal blocks and matching = bonding strips-=20 I just unscrew the tab assemblies, bolt three together=20 temporarily so the tabs are in a circle, then solder them. I use = these for=20 ground points   -Bill
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING = BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I=92m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = =93Neutral=20 Blocks=94, =93Earthing Blocks=94, =93Grounding = Blocks=94.

 

I searched the internet = and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C3222F.86CE9A40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 01:03:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (William Wade) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:03:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS References: Message-ID: <005101c32251$0e8fb420$521aa43f@chipmunk> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C3222F.86CE9A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I made my own out of old brass hinges with brass screws tapped and = silver soldered- very compact and high density. Wicks has MS terminal strips in 3/8, -10, -8 and -6 lugs. They also = sell companion buss bar strips which bond the terminals as well as = fiberglass covers. I used them on the Navion.=20 The avionics shop likes to use what they call "porcupines"- an array = of quick disconnect tabs arranged in arcs, mounted on a block- perhaps = 36 tabs in groups of six. The arcs can be used individually or ganged = together- they're being used for the panel lighting connections so that = things can be changed easily among multiple dimmer circuits. These are = Cessna parts- I haven't gotten the bill yet but they were less than $20 = per as I remember. Radio Shack sells quick-disconnect terminal blocks and matching = bonding strips- I just unscrew the tab assemblies, bolt three together = temporarily so the tabs are in a circle, then solder them. I use these = for ground points -Bill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Martino=20 To: reflector@www.tvbf.org=20 Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble = finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple = terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", = "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". =20 I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in = the US. =20 Anyone have a good source? =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C3222F.86CE9A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  I made my own out of old brass = hinges with=20 brass screws tapped and silver soldered- very compact and high=20 density.
  Wicks has MS terminal strips in = 3/8, -10, -8=20 and -6 lugs. They also sell companion buss bar strips which bond = the=20 terminals as well as fiberglass covers. I used them on the=20 Navion. 
  The avionics shop likes to use = what they=20 call "porcupines"- an array of quick disconnect tabs arranged in arcs, = mounted=20 on a block- perhaps 36 tabs in groups of six. The arcs can be used=20 individually or ganged together- they're being used for the panel = lighting=20 connections so that things can be changed easily among multiple dimmer = circuits.=20 These are Cessna parts- I haven't gotten the bill yet but they = were less=20 than $20 per as I remember.
  Radio Shack = sells quick-disconnect=20 terminal blocks and matching = bonding strips-=20 I just unscrew the tab assemblies, bolt three together=20 temporarily so the tabs are in a circle, then solder them. I use = these for=20 ground points   -Bill
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tom Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 = 5:03=20 PM
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING = BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I=92m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = =93Neutral=20 Blocks=94, =93Earthing Blocks=94, =93Grounding = Blocks=94.

 

I searched the internet = and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C3222F.86CE9A40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 02:56:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS In-Reply-To: <005101c32251$0e8fb420$521aa43f@chipmunk> Message-ID: <20030525015647.2393.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Be careful of the Radio Shack terminal blocks since a lot of them use plated steel screws instead of nickel plated brass ones. If you want brass bus bar strips you can find them at most marine supply stores. Jim --- William Wade wrote: > I made my own out of old brass hinges with brass screws > tapped and silver soldered- very compact and high > density. > Wicks has MS terminal strips in 3/8, -10, -8 and -6 > lugs. They also sell companion buss bar strips which bond > the terminals as well as fiberglass covers. I used them > on the Navion. > The avionics shop likes to use what they call > "porcupines"- an array of quick disconnect tabs arranged > in arcs, mounted on a block- perhaps 36 tabs in groups of > six. The arcs can be used individually or ganged > together- they're being used for the panel lighting > connections so that things can be changed easily among > multiple dimmer circuits. These are Cessna parts- I > haven't gotten the bill yet but they were less than $20 > per as I remember. > Radio Shack sells quick-disconnect terminal blocks and > matching bonding strips- I just unscrew the tab > assemblies, bolt three together temporarily so the tabs > are in a circle, then solder them. I use these for ground > points -Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Martino > To: reflector@www.tvbf.org > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 5:03 PM > Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS > > > I like using a common grounding block but lately I have > had trouble finding them. I'm talking about the brass or > metal block with multiple terminals on them ... they are > commonly called "Neutral Blocks", "Earthing Blocks", > "Grounding Blocks". > > > > I searched the internet and can not find one online > direct seller in the US. > > > > Anyone have a good source? > > > > > > ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 03:59:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:59:55 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3223F.CFA3FA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aeroelectric connection sells them -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom Martino Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 3:04 PM To: reflector@www.tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING BLOCKS I like using a common grounding block but lately I have had trouble finding them. I'm talking about the brass or metal block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called "Neutral Blocks", "Earthing Blocks", "Grounding Blocks". I searched the internet and can not find one online direct seller in the US. Anyone have a good source? ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3223F.CFA3FA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aeroelectric connection sells them
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tom=20 Martino
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 3:04 PM
To:=20 reflector@www.tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:GROUNDING=20 BLOCKS

I like using a common = grounding=20 block but lately I have had trouble finding them.  I’m talking about the = brass or metal=20 block with multiple terminals on them ... they are commonly called = “Neutral=20 Blocks”, “Earthing Blocks”, “Grounding = Blocks”.

 

I searched the internet = and can=20 not find one online direct seller in the=20 US.

 

Anyone have a good=20 source?

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C3223F.CFA3FA20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 04:50:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 23:50:09 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight and Transition Training Message-ID: --part1_b8.40d7d98f.2c019771_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! I am new to the list and so far have found it very interesting. I purchased a Velocity standard, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, and an IO 540 engine from Alan Shaw (the original builder). I have been refurbishing it. It is very close to being able to fly and has a new airworthiness certificate. However, my insurance company will not let me fly the first flight because I have very few hours in a Velocity. I am looking for an experienced Velocity pilot to do the first flight. I am also looking for seven hours of additional transition training. I went to the factory and took transition training but I need additional hours to meet my insurance companies requirements before I can fly my plane solo. Is there anyone on the list who is willing to do either of these things or knows of anyone who would? I would certainly appreciate any help or information you could give me. I live in Palm Bay and the plane, N8101S, is based at the Melbourne airport. Thanks in advance. Rich Bartrem pssstv300@aol.com 321 984-3229 --part1_b8.40d7d98f.2c019771_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable        Hi!  I am n= ew to the list and so far have found it very interesting.  I purchased=20= a Velocity standard, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, and an IO 540 engine from= Alan Shaw (the original builder).  I have been refurbishing it.
             It=20= is very close to being able to fly and has a new airworthiness certificate.&= nbsp; However, my insurance company will not let me fly the first flight bec= ause I have very few hours in a Velocity.  I am looking for an experien= ced Velocity pilot to do the first flight.  I am also looking for seven= hours of additional transition training.  I went to the factory and to= ok transition training but I need additional hours to meet my insurance comp= anies requirements before I can fly my plane solo.
             Is=20= there anyone on the list who is willing to do either of these things or know= s of anyone who would?  I would certainly appreciate any help or inform= ation you could give me.  I live in Palm Bay and the plane, N8101S, is=20= based at the Melbourne airport.  Thanks in advance.
       Rich Bartrem
       pssstv300@aol.com
       321 984-3229 --part1_b8.40d7d98f.2c019771_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 18:50:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 11:50:06 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:CG VS ROTATION Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C322E6.13E79398 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NOTE: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS FOR ANYONE. IT IS FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY ... BUT INITIAL STATIC TESTS LOOK GOOD. I AM NOT SURE I WILL EVER USE IT. BUT DISCOVERY IS FUN. =20 I realize this is a controversial subject ... but here goes. After all ... "experimental" is the name of the game. =20 There has been an ongoing discussion about the weight and balance of the Velocity regarding the CG (especially for those running a bigger engine like an IO-540 in an Elite 173). Even within the proper weight and balance envelope - it can be very light in the nose. =20 Alan Shaw has said in the past that the Velocity flew best when it was within CG limits, yet very light in the nose. He said the best CG for flying is not always the best point of rotation on the ground. He at one time recommended that the gear be moved back slightly on those non-XLs running the IO-540. =20 =20 Are there other solutions? Yes ... ballast ... which he says often spoils the flight characteristics. =20 NOW FOR THE CONTROVERSY ... but think before you criticize: =20 I have asked one of my engineer friends (aeronautical) to help me design a modification for the nose gear. The mechanism is solid and strong but the actual use (other than static testing) has not been proven. =20 In essence, when the gear is down and locked (over center) the plane it at a slight negative angle of attack. That makes ground handling perfect. Theoretically, it should make landing in cross winds a bit more stable ... because once it's down, it's down ... the slight negative angle makes a "no lift" situation. =20 OK, but what about takeoff? =20 The design includes an actuator (or a straight mechanical lever, if one prefers) that raises the nose to "take-off" attitude. It stays there for the ground roll and take-off. =20 Once up in the air, the gear retracts normally ... and the next time it comes down, it is at the "lower" locked position. =20 For touch and goes, you would have to activate the "take off" position immediately upon touch down. =20 OK, TELL ME I'M INSANE. I can name many, many people who were called that in the past ... =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C322E6.13E79398 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

NOTE:  I = AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS FOR ANYONE.  = IT IS FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY ... BUT INITIAL STATIC TESTS LOOK GOOD.  I AM NOT SURE I WILL EVER USE = IT.  BUT DISCOVERY IS = FUN.

 

I realize this is a controversial subject ... but = here goes.  After all ... = “experimental” is the name of the game.

 

There has been an ongoing discussion about the weight = and balance of the Velocity regarding the CG (especially for those running a bigger engine like an IO-540 in = an Elite 173).  Even within the = proper weight and balance envelope – it can be very light in the = nose.

 

Alan Shaw has said in the past that the = Velocity flew best when it was within CG limits, yet very light in the nose.  He said the best CG for flying = is not always the best point of rotation on the ground.  He at one time recommended that the gear be moved back slightly = on those non-XLs running the IO-540.  =

 

Are there other solutions?  Yes ... ballast ... which he says often spoils the flight characteristics.

 

NOW FOR THE CONTROVERSY ... but think before you = criticize:

 

I have asked one of my engineer friends = (aeronautical) to help me design a modification for the nose gear.  The mechanism is solid and = strong but the actual use (other than static testing) has not been = proven.

 

In essence, when the gear is down and locked (over = center) the plane it at a slight negative angle of attack.  That makes ground handling perfect.  Theoretically, it should make landing in cross winds a bit more = stable ... because once it’s down, it’s down ... the slight = negative angle makes a “no lift” situation.

 

OK, but what about = takeoff?

 

The design includes an actuator (or a straight = mechanical lever, if one prefers) that raises the nose to “take-off” attitude.  It stays there = for the ground roll and take-off.

 

Once up in the air, the gear retracts normally ... = and the next time it comes down, it is at the “lower” locked = position.

 

For touch and goes, you would have to activate the = “take off” position immediately upon touch = down.

 

OK, TELL ME I’M INSANE.  I can name many, many people = who were called that in the past ...

 

 

 

 

=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C322E6.13E79398-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 20:16:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:16:46 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:CG VS ROTATION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030525115537.03ddb3e0@pop.charter.net> The nose gear actuators we use in Berkuts, Cozys and EZ's would be perfectly capable of this. You might want to taxi with the nose low to avoid prop damage from taxiway debris. How do the two positions - nose high and nose low - compare to the current stance? At 11:50 AM 5/25/03 -0600, you wrote: >NOTE: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS FOR ANYONE. IT IS FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES >ONLY ... BUT INITIAL STATIC TESTS LOOK GOOD. I AM NOT SURE I WILL EVER >USE IT. BUT DISCOVERY IS FUN. > > > >I realize this is a controversial subject ... but here goes. After all >... experimentalis the name of the game. > > > >There has been an ongoing discussion about the weight and balance of the >Velocity regarding the CG (especially for those running a bigger engine >like an IO-540 in an Elite 173). Even within the proper weight and >balance envelope it can be very light in the nose. > > > >Alan Shaw has said in the past that the Velocity flew best when it was >within CG limits, yet very light in the nose. He said the best CG for >flying is not always the best point of rotation on the ground. He at one >time recommended that the gear be moved back slightly on those non-XLs >running the IO-540. > > > >Are there other solutions? Yes ... ballast ... which he says often spoils >the flight characteristics. > > > >NOW FOR THE CONTROVERSY ... but think before you criticize: > > > >I have asked one of my engineer friends (aeronautical) to help me design a >modification for the nose gear. The mechanism is solid and strong but the >actual use (other than static testing) has not been proven. > > > >In essence, when the gear is down and locked (over center) the plane it at >a slight negative angle of attack. That makes ground handling >perfect. Theoretically, it should make landing in cross winds a bit more >stable ... because once its down, its down ... the slight negative angle >makes a no liftsituation. > > > >OK, but what about takeoff? > > > >The design includes an actuator (or a straight mechanical lever, if one >prefers) that raises the nose to take-offattitude. It stays there for the >ground roll and take-off. > > > >Once up in the air, the gear retracts normally ... and the next time it >comes down, it is at the lowerlocked position. > > > >For touch and goes, you would have to activate the take offposition >immediately upon touch down. > > > >OK, TELL ME IM INSANE. I can name many, many people who were called that >in the past ... > > > > > > > > From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 20:58:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:58:05 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:CG VS ROTATION Message-ID: The nose low is just about 2 inches low. The nose high is what would be considered normal. -----Original Message----- From: richard@riley.net [mailto:richard@riley.net] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 1:17 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:CG VS ROTATION The nose gear actuators we use in Berkuts, Cozys and EZ's would be perfectly capable of this. You might want to taxi with the nose low to avoid prop damage from taxiway debris. How do the two positions - nose high and nose low - compare to the current stance? At 11:50 AM 5/25/03 -0600, you wrote: >NOTE: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS FOR ANYONE. IT IS FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES >ONLY ... BUT INITIAL STATIC TESTS LOOK GOOD. I AM NOT SURE I WILL EVER >USE IT. BUT DISCOVERY IS FUN. > > > >I realize this is a controversial subject ... but here goes. After all >... experimentalis the name of the game. > > > >There has been an ongoing discussion about the weight and balance of the >Velocity regarding the CG (especially for those running a bigger engine >like an IO-540 in an Elite 173). Even within the proper weight and >balance envelope it can be very light in the nose. > > > >Alan Shaw has said in the past that the Velocity flew best when it was >within CG limits, yet very light in the nose. He said the best CG for >flying is not always the best point of rotation on the ground. He at one >time recommended that the gear be moved back slightly on those non-XLs >running the IO-540. > > > >Are there other solutions? Yes ... ballast ... which he says often spoils >the flight characteristics. > > > >NOW FOR THE CONTROVERSY ... but think before you criticize: > > > >I have asked one of my engineer friends (aeronautical) to help me design a >modification for the nose gear. The mechanism is solid and strong but the >actual use (other than static testing) has not been proven. > > > >In essence, when the gear is down and locked (over center) the plane it at >a slight negative angle of attack. That makes ground handling >perfect. Theoretically, it should make landing in cross winds a bit more >stable ... because once its down, its down ... the slight negative angle >makes a no liftsituation. > > > >OK, but what about takeoff? > > > >The design includes an actuator (or a straight mechanical lever, if one >prefers) that raises the nose to take-offattitude. It stays there for the >ground roll and take-off. > > > >Once up in the air, the gear retracts normally ... and the next time it >comes down, it is at the lowerlocked position. > > > >For touch and goes, you would have to activate the take offposition >immediately upon touch down. > > > >OK, TELL ME IM INSANE. I can name many, many people who were called that >in the past ... > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 26 10:17:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Saved by the Relector! Message-ID: <20030526091755.74641.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Armed w/ the manual, my notes from Scott Baker, and a few reflector post on the subject, I finally went after balancing my ailerons. I was leaning toward following Scott's advice (balance the ailerons to be in-trail) over my manual since those balancing directions seems to have suspiciously been dropped from the new on-line manual. I at least wanted to compare my manual's directions (balance to cord-line level) to Scott's. Since the hinges were too stiff for the ailerons to float freely enough for balancing while on the plane, I decided to level the plane, put the ailerons in-trial, and recorded the slope of each ailerons top and bottom surface using an inclinometer. I removed the ailerons and suspended them w/ wire, using stick on weights to recreate the in-trail surface positions using the inclinometer. This all would have made me feel pretty good if I was balancing say a garage door... I then tried the "cord line level" technique. After reading in the manual on how to determine the cord line, I quickly decided 10 different builders would draw at least 10 different cord lines... Depression was quickly setting in. Finally I remembered Nolan's post about using coat hanger wire to suspend the ailerons. I don't think it clicked when I read it the first time, but it made sense now: replace the tight fitting hinge pins w/ the slightly smaller hanger wire and reinstall the ailerons. Now they float freely so you can see exactly where they balance. Using this method, the ailerons consistently snapped back into the same position. I had to add 7-10oz. per side to get them to balance perfectly in-trail. I re-weighed the ailerons to verify they were both under the 9 1/2 lbs limit. All is well. Thanks Nolan. Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 26 14:48:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:48:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Craig, Thanks for the response. I to noticed the new measurements. As you know the rear inboard hard points are the ones that cause the problem. The new schedule has them forward by .5 and 7/8" inboard. I'm not sure that my rears would still have cleared with the new measurement. I don't know that for a fact. I don't have the ball bearing seat type frames. Mine are the square steel tube. I received a lot of great help on this problem. I'm going to set the frames in place and let them dictate where the hard points will need to go. I'll use Bob Wood's suggestion and mount the hard points on top of the inner skin. As you said, the inboard hard points will need some shimming. I'm going to try to make blocks of foam to go under the hard points. Thanks to everyone for the great help. It has been greatly appreciated. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Craig and/or Denise Woolston Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 6:22 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org; amillin@net-link.net Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points Andy- I know this comes late in the discussion, but might as well add logs to the great seat hardpoint bonfire... We are building a XL-FG also and got bit by the hardpoints in the wrong place. I can try and tell you what we have done (over a year ago), but we have not tried to install the seats with foam and such. For reference our orginal manual says, Date May 01, 1997 XLF-16 pg. 10-6 27" from canard bulkhead, 6-5/8 and 14-1/8 off centerline for front hardpoints 45.5" from canard bulkhead, 6-1/8 and 14 off centerline for rear hardpoints. the new manual update says, Dated Feb 2003, 06-XLF pg. 6-12 35" from canard bulkhead, 7.5 and 15 off centerline for the front hardpoints 45 from canard bulkhead, 7 and 14.5 off centerline for the rear hardpoints what we did was put the rear hardpoints where it says in our orginal manual and used the seat frame to locate front. We made it parallel to the keel so the seat should run freely. I have heard that there were different types of seat adjusters that might have added confusion also. Ours have ball bearing slides, I heard some peoples were just sq. tube sliding inside of bigger sq. tube. So to fix the problem with the rear hardpoint being on top of the speed brake, we used a bigger hardpoint (2x5 inches), that we will ultilze for both the seat and the angle bracket to the keel. I've "heard" you have to shim the right rear seat attachment anyway so this brings that point up. This bigger hardpoint was then just glass over the top of speed brake hindges hardpoint. I will check the plane the next time I'm at my partner's house (I only have wings here) if needed. Craig _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 26 17:41:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030526164138.78712.qmail@web41313.mail.yahoo.com> Craig, You want to lubricate those rails and here is a little suggestion to make it easier to pull the seats forward since there isn't a lot to hold on to when trying to pull the seat forward. Get two screen door springs and using 4 sheet metal screws and washers attach the front ends outboard and inboard to the top of the front seat mounting rail, attach the rear of the springs to the bottom rear sliding cross rail so when the seat is in the rear position the springs are under tension. This tension helps to pull the sliding part of the rail forward making it easier. You can slip a loose piece of shrink rap over the springs or extend them some and spray with flock to keep them from ringing. Jim --- Andy Millin wrote: > Craig, > > Thanks for the response. > > I to noticed the new measurements. As you know the rear > inboard hard points > are the ones that cause the problem. The new schedule > has them forward by > .5 and 7/8" inboard. I'm not sure that my rears would > still have cleared > with the new measurement. I don't know that for a fact. > > I don't have the ball bearing seat type frames. Mine are > the square steel > tube. > > I received a lot of great help on this problem. I'm > going to set the frames > in place and let them dictate where the hard points will > need to go. I'll > use Bob Wood's suggestion and mount the hard points on > top of the inner > skin. As you said, the inboard hard points will need > some shimming. I'm > going to try to make blocks of foam to go under the hard > points. > > Thanks to everyone for the great help. It has been > greatly appreciated. > > Best, > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Craig and/or Denise Woolston > Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2003 6:22 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org; amillin@net-link.net > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Front seat hard points > > > Andy- > > I know this comes late in the discussion, but might as > well add logs to > the great seat hardpoint bonfire... We are building a > XL-FG also and got > bit by the hardpoints in the wrong place. I can try and > tell you what we > have done (over a year ago), but we have not tried to > install the seats with > foam and such. For reference our orginal manual says, > > Date May 01, 1997 XLF-16 pg. 10-6 > 27" from canard bulkhead, 6-5/8 and 14-1/8 off centerline > for front > hardpoints > 45.5" from canard bulkhead, 6-1/8 and 14 off centerline > for rear hardpoints. > > the new manual update says, > Dated Feb 2003, 06-XLF pg. 6-12 > 35" from canard bulkhead, 7.5 and 15 off centerline for > the front hardpoints > 45 from canard bulkhead, 7 and 14.5 off centerline for > the rear hardpoints > > what we did was put the rear hardpoints where it says in > our orginal manual > and used the seat frame to locate front. We made it > parallel to the keel so > the seat should run freely. I have heard that there were > different types of > seat adjusters that might have added confusion also. > Ours have ball bearing > slides, I heard some peoples were just sq. tube sliding > inside of bigger sq. > tube. So to fix the problem with the rear hardpoint > being on top of the > speed brake, we used a bigger hardpoint (2x5 inches), > that we will ultilze > for both the seat and the angle bracket to the keel. > I've "heard" you have > to shim the right rear seat attachment anyway so this > brings that point up. > This bigger hardpoint was then just glass over the top of > speed brake > hindges hardpoint. > > I will check the plane the next time I'm at my partner's > house (I only have > wings here) if needed. > > Craig > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Mon May 26 20:09:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:09:09 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair References: <104.2f0fec32.2c0189e8@aol.com> <001301c322db$13d0f770$ad3119d0@o0v0r3> <002101c32334$7dec1000$6401a8c0@yake1a> <000b01c3233c$48943bf0$543019d0@o0v0r3> <000b01c3238b$be70ddc0$6401a8c0@yake1a> <001e01c32394$dbf84a00$423019d0@o0v0r3> Message-ID: <3ED26655.1070507@tnstaafl.net> I've heard of a company that has traveling A&P's that replace your windshield at your hanger. With a 1 to 2 week reservation. Anybody know who that is? Scott From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 03:45:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:45:12 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair In-Reply-To: <3ED26655.1070507@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: Scott, I have never heard of these guys. Have you heard that they will do a windshield specifically for the Velocity? I just did my rear windows and will be doing my windshield pretty soon. We are dealing with composites, so I guess there are a bunch of ways that it could be done. But, I would imagine the most practical way would be to grind it out from the inside. It would take some time as you wouldn't want to go through the outer skin if you could help it. It would take a fair amount of time and would make a real mess. But, if you gotta, you gotta. Best of luck, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 3:09 PM To: canards@tnstaafl.net; reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair I've heard of a company that has traveling A&P's that replace your windshield at your hanger. With a 1 to 2 week reservation. Anybody know who that is? Scott _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 03:54:43 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:54:43 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair References: Message-ID: <005a01c323fb$53ce5360$62294ed8@mshome.net> Check with Malcolm Collier ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair > Scott, > > I have never heard of these guys. Have you heard that they will do a > windshield specifically for the Velocity? > > I just did my rear windows and will be doing my windshield pretty soon. We > are dealing with composites, so I guess there are a bunch of ways that it > could be done. But, I would imagine the most practical way would be to > grind it out from the inside. It would take some time as you wouldn't want > to go through the outer skin if you could help it. > > It would take a fair amount of time and would make a real mess. But, if you > gotta, you gotta. > > Best of luck, > > Andy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 3:09 PM > To: canards@tnstaafl.net; reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair > > > I've heard of a company that has traveling A&P's that replace your > windshield at your hanger. With a 1 to 2 week reservation. > > Anybody know who that is? > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 03:59:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (dean fitzbag) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:59:47 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair References: Message-ID: I met someone at Sun and Fun that had to replace his windshield. He said that after cutting the main part away, he applied a heat gun and that released the remaining portion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Millin" To: Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair > Scott, > > I have never heard of these guys. Have you heard that they will do a > windshield specifically for the Velocity? > > I just did my rear windows and will be doing my windshield pretty soon. We > are dealing with composites, so I guess there are a bunch of ways that it > could be done. But, I would imagine the most practical way would be to > grind it out from the inside. It would take some time as you wouldn't want > to go through the outer skin if you could help it. > > It would take a fair amount of time and would make a real mess. But, if you > gotta, you gotta. > > Best of luck, > > Andy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Scott Derrick > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 3:09 PM > To: canards@tnstaafl.net; reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair > > > I've heard of a company that has traveling A&P's that replace your > windshield at your hanger. With a 1 to 2 week reservation. > > Anybody know who that is? > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 07:07:37 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:07:37 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Windshield Repair Message-ID: <1f1.99a7891.2c045aa9@wmconnect.com> --part1_1f1.99a7891.2c045aa9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had to replace my windshield right after it was installed. A small crack had formed in one corner. I cut out the center leaving about 6" around the edge. I then made cuts down to the edge of the fame every 4-5". These pieces were the pulled out and most of them broke out cleanly. The frame was damaged in a couple of place but this method greatly reduced the amount of grinding required. Mel Bina SDT RG --part1_1f1.99a7891.2c045aa9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had to replace my winds= hield right after it was installed.  A small crack had formed in one co= rner.  I cut out the center leaving about 6" around the edge.  I t= hen made cuts down to the edge of the fame every 4-5".  These pieces we= re the pulled out and most of them broke out cleanly.  The frame was da= maged in a couple of place but this method greatly reduced the amount of gri= nding required.

Mel Bina   SDT  RG --part1_1f1.99a7891.2c045aa9_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 16:56:41 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jack Sheehan) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:56:41 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alex, You mentioned that you copied his aircraft jacks??? Do you have an explanation or drawing for the jacks Thanks Jack N55XL From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 18:21:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:21:47 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash References: Message-ID: <001801c32474$7475f680$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I'm not sure how those jacks were made, but here's what I did: I bought 2 hydraulic bottle jacks from AutoZone (or Wal-Mart, etc). Then I built a stand out of 4x4 (or two 2 x4's nailed together. These 2x4's are screwed to a 16x16" piece of 3/4" plywood to make a foot for the stand. I then screwed some 1x2"s diagonally from the stand to the outer edges of the foot. You could also use a couple of 14" long 2x4's screwed to the side of the stand and to the foot. I made the stands long enough that I the bottle jacks sit on top of the stands with a 2x4 on top of the bottle jack. On top of this I put some carpet to protect the finish. Then place the jack stands about 3 feet out from the fuselage under the CS spar. For the nose, I used one of my adjustable HD / Lowe's saw horses. Fits right behind the nose gear on a piece of foam or carpet. You can see a picture of one of my jacks at http://home.sprintmail.com/~rolandbrown/page47.html Don't jump around in the plane but these stands are pretty steady. And I spent all of about $25 for the two jacks and some 2 1/2" long screws. The adjustable saw horse was $20 - and very handy. In fact buy two more and put them under the wings as safeties in case you get too excited inside the plane - working of course!!! Ronnie Brown ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Sheehan" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:56 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash > Alex, > You mentioned that you copied his aircraft jacks??? Do you have an > explanation or drawing for the jacks > Thanks > Jack N55XL > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Tue May 27 21:33:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:33:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jack, well. no picture at the moment, but basically I have (3) 4x4 posts with a bottle jack affixed to the top of each - 2 tall ones for under the wings, and a short one for under the canard bulkhead. on top of each jack, I have a 8" long piece of 2x4 carpet covered, with a small depression on the opposite center to take the tip of the jack, I affixed the jacks to the tops of the 4x4 with micro glass, and the same with the pads to the tops of the jacks. to stabilize each one, cut 4 large right triangles (18" x 18" x whatever the diagonal is for that size triangle) and then just screw and glue the triangles to the sides of the 4x4 end opposite the jack- so it looks like a little missile- they are then adjusted with the acme screw on each bottle jack, so all you have to do is drive the aircraft over then with about 1" clearance, push the nose jack under from the side, and lift the plane up- takes about 3 minutes to get all 3 jacks up, and about 45 seconds to get them down, and you never have to move the 2 wing jacks..... if my description is confusing, I will take a picture of them in a few days, just let me know. I bought the jacks at Wal-Mart for 9.98 each, and I had the wood laying around, so I have 3 jacks for about $30 - Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jack Sheehan Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:57 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Incident/crash Alex, You mentioned that you copied his aircraft jacks??? Do you have an explanation or drawing for the jacks Thanks Jack N55XL _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 15:42:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:42:56 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it was just me, all I need is the hanger Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA All the best, Chris Barber From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 15:57:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:57:46 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, the runway is paved. It and the hangar are well maintained. In case this one does not work out, how much runway should be on a turf runway? How much for paved? Thanks again. Chris -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:43 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it was just me, all I need is the hanger Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA All the best, Chris Barber _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 16:29:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Christopher Barber) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:29:45 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport In-Reply-To: <1054134444.3ed4d0ac334e3@webmail.123mail.net> Message-ID: Yeah, I am aware of the turf strip issues. Just want to explore. Some turf I have seen are like golf courses others like mine fields. I just shudder at the thought of paving a 3500 (3/4 of a mile? How many acres?) feet strip of my own (ok, love the idea, not the cost ) I don't know what minimums I would want to use as to pavement or what I might need to use due common sense and/or regulation. Also, what are the requirements, such as FAA, of a private field etc, etc? But we are getting ahead of ourselves here. (but it is kinda fun). Ok you guys flying, what is the real scoop on paved runway length? I have a potential new mortgage I can't afford in the balance. Thanks. Chris Velocity SE in progress -----Original Message----- From: Brett Ferrell [mailto:bferrell@123mail.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:07 AM To: CBarber@texasattorney.net Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport Hey - Good point. For what it's worth, my plane will not be going to grass strips, either. The factory recommends against this because the prop is soooo close to the ground and the front wheel throws stuff up into it, and you have a very high landing speed for grass. Some Eze drivers do it all of the time, but they are lighter and slower, and I know a couple that have damaged gear legs by doing so. Most of the grass strips around Ohio are interesting in a Cessna, and just crazy in a canard. The descent angle is too shallow, and the fields are too short, and without a steerable nose wheel it just seems like asking for trouble. As I say, these are things that can be done, but I try this test. "Would someone try to put a $200,000 twin Piper on that strip?" If the answer is no, then I probably won't go there either... Brett Quoting Christopher Barber : > Oh, the runway is paved. It and the hangar are well > maintained. In case > this one does not work out, how much runway should be > on a turf runway? How > much for paved? Thanks again. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org > [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Christopher Barber > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:43 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > > > My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very > nice, established > airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few > miles from where I grew > up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda > expensive at $360K and is > dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to > update), Bt does have a > hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for > the runway. Hell, if it > was just me, all I need is the hanger > > Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to > land and take-off is > about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. > Is this realistic???? > Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the > reality from you guys > flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA > > All the best, > > Chris Barber > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 16:43:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (johnward) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:43:35 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: Message-ID: <003901c3252f$e76d5aa0$ac8366d1@johnward> Chris, I'm operating a standard Velocity with an IO-360 and MT prop out of 2,600' turf. I was a military pilot and have over 6,000 hours flight experience. If I didn't own this strip I'd not be operating here. I'd like to have at least 3,000 feet. 3500' would be better. The turf is great if well maintained. Better on the tires, softer on the landing (usually) and not concerned about debris (small stones, rocks) that some runways have. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Barber" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > Oh, the runway is paved. It and the hangar are well maintained. In case > this one does not work out, how much runway should be on a turf runway? How > much for paved? Thanks again. > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Christopher Barber > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:43 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > > > My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established > airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew > up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is > dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a > hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it > was just me, all I need is the hanger > > Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is > about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? > Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys > flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA > > All the best, > > Chris Barber > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 16:49:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:49:56 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport Message-ID: <156.1fc06723.2c0634a4@aol.com> --part1_156.1fc06723.2c0634a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I think I am correct that Ueli Christian had his XL RG with IO540 (260hp) with MT prop in and out of your strip. True? I have no experience on grass and like long/wide hard surface (straight into the wind). Bob Wood --part1_156.1fc06723.2c0634a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John,  I think I am correct that Ueli Christian h= ad his XL RG with IO540 (260hp) with MT prop in and out of your strip. = True?

I have no experience on grass and like long/wide hard surface (straight into= the wind).

Bob Wood --part1_156.1fc06723.2c0634a4_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 17:17:45 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (johnward) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:17:45 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: <156.1fc06723.2c0634a4@aol.com> Message-ID: <004701c32534$ad1d1fc0$ac8366d1@johnward> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3250A.C3A866C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, That's correct. Ueli had his Velocity here for a short visit. He = first landed at a local airport but after looking at the strip wanted to = land here. Also had room in the hangar for his plane. I think a lot of = the available strips in Europe are short and turf so he was happy to try = out AL04. It was no problem and he was comfortable with the takeoff and = landing distances. Believe he is coming back from Switzerland in time = to make Oshkosh. =20 John Ward ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:49 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport John, I think I am correct that Ueli Christian had his XL RG with = IO540 (260hp) with MT prop in and out of your strip. True? I have no experience on grass and like long/wide hard surface = (straight into the wind). Bob Wood ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3250A.C3A866C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
    That's = correct.  Ueli had=20 his Velocity here for a short visit.  He first landed at a local = airport=20 but after looking at the strip wanted to land here.  Also had room = in the=20 hangar for his plane.  I think a lot of the available strips in = Europe are=20 short and turf so he was happy to try out AL04.  It was no problem = and he=20 was comfortable with the takeoff and landing distances.  Believe he = is=20 coming back from Switzerland in time to make Oshkosh.  =
 
John Ward
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SlvEgl99@aol.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 = 10:49=20 AM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me = buy a=20 house...on an airport

John,  I think I am correct that Ueli = Christian had=20 his XL RG with IO540 (260hp) with MT prop in and out of your = strip. =20 True?

I have no experience on grass and like long/wide hard = surface=20 (straight into the wind).

Bob Wood=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C3250A.C3A866C0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 17:15:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Laurence Coen) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:15:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: Message-ID: Chris, Don White used to fly out of an airport in Buffalo NY that is 2600' paved. It's the same place I earned my private ticket. He'd be a good reference. Larry Coen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Barber" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:42 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established > airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew > up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is > dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a > hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it > was just me, all I need is the hanger > > Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is > about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? > Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys > flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA > > All the best, > > Chris Barber > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 17:51:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Craig and/or Denise Woolston) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:51:05 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness Message-ID: John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any reference in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. Which would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive or microglass or sand them down or what? Thanks, Craig !----------------------------! ! Craig Woolston ! ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! !----------------------------! From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 18:16:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:16:11 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Craig, I haven't started my carbon beams yet. But, FWIW, would it be possible to drill holes every few inches and use clecos to pull the two together. If you can, then smear it with good goop and let it cure that way. The clecos will come out. Best, Andy -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Craig and/or Denise Woolston Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 12:51 PM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any reference in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. Which would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive or microglass or sand them down or what? Thanks, Craig !----------------------------! ! Craig Woolston ! ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! !----------------------------! _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 18:35:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ueli Christen) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:35:17 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport In-Reply-To: <004701c32534$ad1d1fc0$ac8366d1@johnward> Message-ID: <000401c3253f$84a6ff10$5e5afed4@vaio> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C32550.482FCF10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello John, Hello Bob =20 Nice reading some about my landing in AL04.On a strip like that it=92s = reel no Problem. I don=92t now, may bee i will make Oskosh. Bud before i have to = Fix my =84little Problem=93 here. You now what i meen. Would like to see you = again=20 =20 Ueli N244CU =20 -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im = Auftrag von johnward Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Mai 2003 18:18 An: reflector@tvbf.org Betreff: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport =20 Bob, That's correct. Ueli had his Velocity here for a short visit. He = first landed at a local airport but after looking at the strip wanted to land here. Also had room in the hangar for his plane. I think a lot of the available strips in Europe are short and turf so he was happy to try out AL04. It was no problem and he was comfortable with the takeoff and = landing distances. Believe he is coming back from Switzerland in time to make Oshkosh. =20 =20 John Ward ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SlvEgl99@aol.com=20 To: reflector@tvbf.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:49 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport =20 John, I think I am correct that Ueli Christian had his XL RG with IO540 (260hp) with MT prop in and out of your strip. True? I have no experience on grass and like long/wide hard surface (straight = into the wind). Bob Wood=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C32550.482FCF10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello John, Hello = Bob

 

Nice reading some about my landing = in AL04.On a strip like that it’s reel no Problem. I don’t now, = may bee i will make Oskosh. Bud before i have to Fix my „little = Problem“ here. You now what i meen. Would like to see you again

 

Ueli

N244CU

 

-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im = Auftrag von johnward
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. = Mai 2003 18:18
An: = reflector@tvbf.org
Betreff: Re: = REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport

 

Bob,

    That's correct.  Ueli had his Velocity here for a short visit.  He first landed at a local = airport but after looking at the strip wanted to land here.  Also had room in = the hangar for his plane.  I think a lot of the available strips in = Europe are short and turf so he was happy to try out AL04.  It was no problem = and he was comfortable with the takeoff and landing distances.  Believe he = is coming back from Switzerland in time to make Oshkosh.  =

 

John Ward

----- Original Message -----

Sent: = Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:49 AM

Subject: Re: = REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport

 

John,  I think I am = correct that Ueli Christian had his XL RG with IO540 (260hp) with MT prop in and = out of your strip.  True?

I have no experience on grass and like long/wide hard surface (straight = into the wind).

Bob Wood

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C32550.482FCF10-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 18:48:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (lawrence epstein) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:48:23 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness Message-ID: I contoured the beams (to the best of my ability) prior to bonding. Larry Epstein 173 FGE >From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" >Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org >To: "reflector" >Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:51:05 -0700 > >John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are >some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any >reference >in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what >dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 >should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. >Which >would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive or >microglass or sand them down or what? > >Thanks, > >Craig > >!----------------------------! >! Craig Woolston ! >! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! >! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! >!----------------------------! > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 18:55:02 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:55:02 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c32542$46ace0f0$6400a8c0@BigAl> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C32507.9A4E08F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there = are some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any = reference in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. = Which would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive = or microglass or sand them down or what? As I recall, I did some sanding on the beams to improve the fit. I = don't think perfect fit is required. The layups that bond them to the = fuselage provide the strength. 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CgIAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABKT0hOQU5ESUhBVkVST1VHSEZJVFRIRUNB UkJPTkJFQU1TSU5UT1RIRUFJUlBMQU5FQlVUVEhFUkVBUkVTT01FSEVBTFRIWUdBUFMoMy8xNiJP UkxFU1MpSU5TT01FQVJFQVNJAAAAAAOu ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C32507.9A4E08F0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 19:23:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tammy Faulkner) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:23:05 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroelectric Class in Manassas, VA In-Reply-To: <000401c3253f$84a6ff10$5e5afed4@vaio> Message-ID: <000001c32546$2ed7aa10$e40410ac@swales.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32524.A7C60A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My building partner and I have just realized that there is an Aeroelectric Seminar in Manassas, VA on June 7/8. The class doesn't come to this part of the country that often so I wanted to let people in the area know. It is raved to be a supreme leaning experience. We have both signed up for the class. Also, I have heard there are several Velocities hangered at or near Manassas. If the owners have some free time that weekend to let us admire their craftsmanship, we would really like to meet and talk-shop with some fellow Velocity builders. We are still early in our project, just getting started on the fuselage and part-way through schmoozing the wings (no fast-builds) and are always eager to see how others crafted their planes. Tammy Faulkner (and Marc Kaylor) Std FG ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32524.A7C60A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
My=20 building partner and I have just realized that there is an Aeroelectric = Seminar=20 in Manassas, VA on June 7/8. The class doesn't come to this part of the = country=20 that often so I wanted to let people in the area know. It is raved to be = a=20 supreme leaning experience. We have both signed up for the=20 class.
 
Also,=20 I have heard there are several Velocities hangered at or near Manassas. = If the=20 owners have some free time that weekend to let us admire their = craftsmanship,=20 we would really like to meet and talk-shop with some fellow = Velocity=20 builders. We are still early in our project, just getting started on the = fuselage and part-way through schmoozing the wings (no fast-builds) = and are=20 always eager to see how others crafted their planes.
 
Tammy=20 Faulkner (and Marc Kaylor)
Std=20 FG
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32524.A7C60A10-- From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 20:02:53 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:02:53 +0000 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport Message-ID: Landing on a airport that is less then 3000 ft. long is not a good idea in a Velocity...If you are an experienced pilot with lots of confidence then OK, try it...But, I for one would caution anyone who tries to be very careful about brakes, nose gear, main gear, debris on strip, density altitude, strip condition, on and on...These aircraft are not designed for short field take offs and landings... My $.02 Your mileage WILL vary... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 20:57:40 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:57:40 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c32553$654faea0$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> I fit mine to within aprox 1/8th inch then structural adhesive was used to lock them in in spots. I used a radius of micro and three tapes of bid with peel ply. This matched sanding allowed good fit of side beams to top cross member. XL RG Flying in paint shop. Rene' N129RD -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Craig and/or Denise Woolston Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM To: reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any reference in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. Which would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive or microglass or sand them down or what? Thanks, Craig !----------------------------! ! Craig Woolston ! ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! !----------------------------! _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 21:57:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jim Agnew) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder Question Message-ID: <20030528205735.33342.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> I believe that the Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder is a Datsun B-210 Master Clutch Cylinder. Does anyone know the exact answer? Thanks. Jim ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 22:05:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Velocity_AZ) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:05:55 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder Question In-Reply-To: <20030528205735.33342.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mine was a NAPA part, which has a lifetime warranty. The NAPA number is 39102. Both of my master cylinders were leaking from the screw on the bottom (which, I am sure was just a bad o-ring). The local NAPA store said that they didn't sell the o-ring (which is probably a standard size), but they were happy to replace both units. Kevin Steiner Elite LWFG - w&b next, then FAA inspection -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Jim Agnew Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:58 PM To: Velocity Reflector Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder Question I believe that the Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder is a Datsun B-210 Master Clutch Cylinder. Does anyone know the exact answer? Thanks. Jim ===== James F. Agnew Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com Tampa, FL Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Wed May 28 23:36:55 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:36:55 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If it is a grass runway and you are without constant speed prop, it would be unwise to attempt it with other than solo and low fuel. Just my .02 worth. Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:43 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it was just me, all I need is the hanger Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA All the best, Chris Barber _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 00:43:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:43:18 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder Question References: <20030528205735.33342.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c32572$eae3c140$a0624ed8@mshome.net> It "looks" exactly like the one on my old 240Z ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Agnew" To: "Velocity Reflector" Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:57 PM Subject: REFLECTOR:Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder Question > I believe that the Velocity 173 Master Brake Cylinder is a > Datsun B-210 Master Clutch Cylinder. Does anyone know the > exact answer? > > Thanks. > > Jim > > ===== > James F. Agnew > Jim_Agnew_2@Yahoo.Com > Tampa, FL > Velocity 173 Elite Aircraft Completed > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 00:48:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:48:49 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: <156.1fc06723.2c0634a4@aol.com> <004701c32534$ad1d1fc0$ac8366d1@johnward> Message-ID: <006f01c32573$cb982b40$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C32539.03657450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In case it's not been stated, John also has his Std RG based on his turf = strip. I think it was 2800'.=20 John, correct me if I'm wrong, hope all's well. Regards, to Rose. Tony -----=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C32539.03657450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In case it's not been stated, John also = has his Std=20 RG based on his turf strip. I think it was 2800'.
 
John, correct me if I'm wrong, hope = all's well.=20 Regards, to Rose.
 
Tony
----- =
------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C32539.03657450-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 01:49:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Paul Amberg) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 19:49:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:not receiving mail Message-ID: <000a01c3257c$2f91c2c0$6401a8c0@Wilma> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C32552.45C3C630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have not been receiving any reflector messages, my mailbox has not = changed in any way for the past year, but I stopped getting messages a = week or so ago. Thanks, Paul Amberg pamberg@wi.rr.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C32552.45C3C630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have not been receiving any reflector = messages,  my mailbox has not changed in any way for the past year, = but I=20 stopped getting messages a week or so ago.
 
Thanks,  Paul Amberg
 
pamberg@wi.rr.com
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C32552.45C3C630-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 02:17:05 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Carl Hoffman) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:17:05 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroelectric Class in Manassas, VA References: <000001c32546$2ed7aa10$e40410ac@swales.com> Message-ID: <3ED55F91.B4C0E0B8@erols.com> --------------6317C8DF1A630CC81C43A18C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Velocity is at Manassas HEF hanger 35 west side. I spent 4 years building, flying for the last 3. No fast-builds. E-mail me a time and I'll be there. Carl Hoffman SRGE Franklin-MT, N1QR Tammy Faulkner wrote: > My building partner and I have just realized that there is an > Aeroelectric Seminar in Manassas, VA on June 7/8. The class doesn't > come to this part of the country that often so I wanted to let people > in the area know. It is raved to be a supreme leaning experience. We > have both signed up for the class.Also, I have heard there are several > Velocities hangered at or near Manassas. If the owners have some free > time that weekend to let us admire their craftsmanship, we would > really like to meet and talk-shop with some fellow Velocity builders. > We are still early in our project, just getting started on the > fuselage and part-way through schmoozing the wings (no fast-builds) > and are always eager to see how others crafted their planes.Tammy > Faulkner (and Marc Kaylor)Std FG --------------6317C8DF1A630CC81C43A18C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Velocity is at Manassas HEF hanger 35 west side. I spent 4 years building, flying for the last 3. No fast-builds.
E-mail me a time and I'll be there.

Carl Hoffman SRGE Franklin-MT, N1QR

Tammy Faulkner wrote:

My building partner and I have just realized that there is an Aeroelectric Seminar in Manassas, VA on June 7/8. The class doesn't come to this part of the country that often so I wanted to let people in the area know. It is raved to be a supreme leaning experience. We have both signed up for the class.Also, I have heard there are several Velocities hangered at or near Manassas. If the owners have some free time that weekend to let us admire their craftsmanship, we would really like to meet and talk-shop with some fellow Velocity builders. We are still early in our project, just getting started on the fuselage and part-way through schmoozing the wings (no fast-builds) and are always eager to see how others crafted their planes.Tammy Faulkner (and Marc Kaylor)Std FG
--------------6317C8DF1A630CC81C43A18C-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 03:37:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (velocity xl) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:37:44 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness References: Message-ID: <004f01c3258b$4a048d40$2a84cf0c@attbi.com> I don't no if your plans are different than mine but you might want to look at where the door strut attaches . The new style attaches higher on the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that area also before you attach it to the plane. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" To: "reflector" Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any reference > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what > dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. Which > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive or > microglass or sand them down or what? > > Thanks, > > Craig > > !----------------------------! > ! Craig Woolston ! > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! > !----------------------------! > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 04:38:09 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:38:09 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points In-Reply-To: <004f01c3258b$4a048d40$2a84cf0c@attbi.com> Message-ID: about that hard point- I spoke with Brendon at the factory about that, because I spent a lot of time fabricating 2 that would fit nicely inside the beams, and I wanted the exact spot for placement, but he said that they really need to go on the outside of the beam because when the door closes, the gas spring moves across the corner, and it needs to stick out away from the beam a bit to clear- if anyone has put them internally let me know, because I have not quite done it yet, and would prefer (aesthetically) to put them inside the beams. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of velocity xl Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 8:38 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness I don't no if your plans are different than mine but you might want to look at where the door strut attaches . The new style attaches higher on the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that area also before you attach it to the plane. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" To: "reflector" Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any reference > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what > dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. Which > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive or > microglass or sand them down or what? > > Thanks, > > Craig > > !----------------------------! > ! Craig Woolston ! > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! > !----------------------------! > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 04:54:20 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:54:20 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Linear Actuator Message-ID: <00e301c32595$fcac2200$a0624ed8@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C32574.751BDC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone have a speed brake actuator you aren't going to use? Would you be willing to part with it? Wayne Owens ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C32574.751BDC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone have a speed brake actuator you = aren't going=20 to use?
Would you be willing to part with = it?
Wayne Owens
------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C32574.751BDC20-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 07:46:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tony Babb) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:46:31 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) References: Message-ID: <00d901c325ae$1c93a080$7601a8c0@pwcinternal.com> ...I made mine adjustable so that in cruise, I had > plenty of up and down trim... > Steve, Is that in-flight adjustable? Do you have photos somewhere? Thanks, Tony From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 13:43:27 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:43:27 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport Message-ID: <6CC8A60F.0BB20B84.0086622B@aol.com> I've flown my 173FGE with a fixed pitch prop off of grass strips and you need a lot of runway with clear areas off the end. nlike a spam can, you can't haul back on the yoke to keep the nose wheel off or else you risk hitting the prop. The velocity specs are for a hard surface runway. You also need to worry about prop damage. Its amazing what a pusher sucks into the prop, they make great runway-wacuum cleaners. Bill From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 14:26:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:26:32 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport Message-ID: I second the idea that anything less than a "most excellent" grass strip is hard on props. I have a MT prop on an XL RG that has been flow off a grass strip (better than average but less than perfect) and, with only 100 hours on it, it looks like it had been used to bludgeon Saddam...when he was hiding behind a rock. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Tstockmn@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:43 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport I've flown my 173FGE with a fixed pitch prop off of grass strips and you need a lot of runway with clear areas off the end. nlike a spam can, you can't haul back on the yoke to keep the nose wheel off or else you risk hitting the prop. The velocity specs are for a hard surface runway. You also need to worry about prop damage. Its amazing what a pusher sucks into the prop, they make great runway-wacuum cleaners. Bill _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 14:24:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Bill Borgardt) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 06:24:32 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Advice... Message-ID: <3ED60A10.602@borgardt.com> Hello to all, Would anyone have a suggestion for an alternator: 40 to 60 Amps, self-regulated to use on a Lycoming? Thanks, Bill B. From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 15:27:12 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (lawrence epstein) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 14:27:12 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points Message-ID:

My hard point(s) are all inside the beam & I use the newer system for the gas spring (in the middle of the door).  No problem, but I did have to spend some time trial fitting the beam/gas spring prior to mounting.

Larry Epstein

173 fge

>From: "Alexander Balic"
>Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org
>To:
>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points
>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:38:09 -0500
>
>about that hard point- I spoke with Brendon at the factory about that,
>because I spent a lot of time fabricating 2 that would fit nicely inside the
>beams, and I wanted the exact spot for placement, but he said that they
>really need to go on the outside of the beam because when the door closes,
>the gas spring moves across the corner, and it needs to stick out away from
>the beam a bit to clear- if anyone has put them internally let me know,
>because I have not quite done it yet, and would prefer (aesthetically) to
>put them inside the beams.
>
>Alex
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On
>Behalf Of velocity xl
>Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 8:38 PM
>To: reflector@tvbf.org
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness
>
>
>I don't no if your plans are different than mine but you might want to
>look at where the door strut attaches . The new style attaches higher on
>the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that area also before
>you attach it to the plane.
>
>Ron
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston"
>To: "reflector"
>Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM
>Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness
>
>
> > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are
> > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any
>reference
> > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what
> > dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4
> > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment.
>Which
> > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive
>or
> > microglass or sand them down or what?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > !----------------------------!
> > ! Craig Woolston !
> > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA !
> > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net !
> > !----------------------------!
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>To change your email address, visit
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>
>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose

Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 23 04:12:11 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rodney Brim) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 20:12:11 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c320d9$1aa81140$1101a8c0@pst.local> Hi Chuck, 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final version of the fences. Looks like that is attributable to driving the air more directly over the wing at slower speeds and not having it slide down the wing, which if you do some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing. 2. It doesn't effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard. 3. It feels like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure it, but you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, especially as you move the fences out along the wing, which I would not suggest. To me it makes the plane feel more stable. 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon height of the fences and location. At the location and height I have them, I have no reduction in cruise speed. 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but then what do I know. I think everyone should move to forward hinging doors;) Rodney Brim, PS I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They probably helped save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going inverted stall at 200 feet coming off a runway a couple of years ago... sometimes you can use all the stability and directional control you can get your hands on. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence >From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? Chuck Jensen XL RG _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sun May 25 20:09:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:09:24 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:dark colors Message-ID: <200305251909.h4PJ9Uvh008536@dax.awpi.com> Is there any reason why I can't paint the non-structural parts of my Velocity a dark color? I'm considering bright red to make the plane more visible. Couldn't I paint the wheel pants and the cowling bright red? How about the two access covers on the nose? How about the underside of the fuselage, strakes, and wings? Doug Holub From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 16:44:42 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:44:42 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:dark colors In-Reply-To: <200305251909.h4PJ9Uvh008536@dax.awpi.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030529083826.02f9cb90@pop.charter.net> Mine is bright red on top of the fuselage, stripes on the sides and stripes on the verticals. See http://www.berkutengineering.com/media/reno2.jpg and it hasn't been a problem. One thing to be careful of is what shade of red you use. Red is the worst color for absorbing heat (other than black, of course) so get a red that's more of a deeply saturated pink, not blood red or fire engine red. The underside you can paint any color you want. At 07:09 PM 5/25/03 +0000, you wrote: >Is there any reason why I can't paint the non-structural parts of my Velocity >a dark color? I'm considering bright red to make the plane more visible. >Couldn't I paint the wheel pants and the cowling bright red? How about the >two access covers on the nose? How about the underside of the fuselage, >strakes, and wings? > >Doug Holub >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 19:35:46 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:35:46 +0200 Subject: AW: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport In-Reply-To: <000401c3253f$84a6ff10$5e5afed4@vaio> Message-ID: <000001c32611$1f18bbc0$8ee6a2d9@ah1> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32621.E2A31260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ueli=20 =20 I was tracing you a week ago, as I wanted to take you along for a roundtrip: Bern M=FCnich -Biberach-N=FCrnberg-Bayreut - Hof - Leipzig - Dessau - + back via Dinkelsb=FChl - Friedrichshafen etc. = =20 Maybee next time again?! =20 Where are you? Best regards Alfons P.O. Box 6620=20 CH-3001 Berne, Switzerland Tel: +41 31 901 22 66 Fax: +41 31 901 11 40 Mob: +41 79 344 83 83 -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im Auftrag von Ueli Christen ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32621.E2A31260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nachricht
Hi=20 Ueli
 
I was=20 tracing you a week ago, as I wanted to take you along for a=20 roundtrip:
Bern=20 M=FCnich -Biberach-N=FCrnberg-Bayreut - Hof
-  Leipzig - Dessau  - + back via = Dinkelsb=FChl=20 - Friedrichshafen   etc. 
 
Maybee=20 next time again?!
 
Where=20 are you?
Best=20 regards
Alfons

P.O.=20 Box 6620 
CH-3001=20 Berne, Switzerland

Tel:      +41 31 = 901 22=20 66
Fax:     = +41 31=20 901 11 40
Mob:    +41 79 344 83=20 83
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von:=20 reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] Im = Auftrag von=20 Ueli Christen
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C32621.E2A31260-- From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 23:01:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:01:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q References: <20030523181850.99604.qmail@web41313.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010101c3262d$eba74e60$501c2343@mshome.net> I believe the following to be true regarding the recent (nose) gear up landing of N6Q ... (If wrong, I stand ready to be corrected). The aircraft experienced an alternator failure during a cross country flight. The pilot did not recognize this condition until the avionics fell off line. Few, if any steps were taken to conserve the remaining power in the battery. Pilot attempted to cycle the gear down with electrical power upon reaching destination. Main gear fell into down and locked position - nose gear experienced partial travel. For some reason the pilot did not attempt a manual gear extension. Pilot was aware of "no green light" indication for the nose - and elected to land anyway. Nose gear collapsed upon landing. Pilot was new to Velocity - had gone through the transition course - and did not have a lot of experience with RG aircraft operations. Scott B. From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 23:04:52 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (S Baker) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Advice... References: <3ED60A10.602@borgardt.com> Message-ID: <010b01c3262e$54b4ec00$501c2343@mshome.net> The factory has a 55amp alternator and mounting kit in stock (I believe it sells for $250) - and Coming soon ...a 70amp alternator along the same design and for about the same price. These are automotive alternators and have a built-in regulator and over-voltage protection. Call Natalie at 772-589-1860 (Florida). Best regards, Scott B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Borgardt" To: "Velocity Builders" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:24 AM Subject: REFLECTOR:Advice... > Hello to all, > Would anyone have a suggestion for an alternator: 40 to 60 Amps, > self-regulated to use on a Lycoming? > > Thanks, > Bill B. > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 23:23:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Rene Dugas) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:23:49 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence In-Reply-To: <000501c320d9$1aa81140$1101a8c0@pst.local> Message-ID: <000001c32630$fd84f260$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> I would be interested in dimensions and locations of fences. Thanks, Rene' XL RG rdugas@bayou.com -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Rodney Brim Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:12 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence Hi Chuck, 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final version of the fences. Looks like that is attributable to driving the air more directly over the wing at slower speeds and not having it slide down the wing, which if you do some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing. 2. It doesn't effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard. 3. It feels like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure it, but you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, especially as you move the fences out along the wing, which I would not suggest. To me it makes the plane feel more stable. 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon height of the fences and location. At the location and height I have them, I have no reduction in cruise speed. 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but then what do I know. I think everyone should move to forward hinging doors;) Rodney Brim, PS I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They probably helped save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going inverted stall at 200 feet coming off a runway a couple of years ago... sometimes you can use all the stability and directional control you can get your hands on. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence >From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? Chuck Jensen XL RG _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Thu May 29 23:54:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:54:35 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence References: <000501c320d9$1aa81140$1101a8c0@pst.local> Message-ID: <003b01c32635$4713ada0$0100a8c0@mshome.net> Hello Rodney, Like many others I'm sure, I would love details, drawings, and dimensions. Fax ,Jpeg Photo gallery ,however. Thank you very much! Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rodney Brim" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 11:12 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence > Hi Chuck, > > 1. I got a >15% reduction in take-off roll on my final version of the > fences. Looks like that is attributable to driving the air more directly > over the wing at slower speeds and not having it slide down the wing, which > if you do some dirty oil tests you will see that it is doing. > 2. It doesn't effect your stall, that's all governed by the canard. > 3. It feels like it reduces roll rate slightly. I didn't measure it, but > you can tell the plane has more tail feathers, especially as you move the > fences out along the wing, which I would not suggest. To me it makes the > plane feel more stable. > 4. Reduction in cruise speed is dependent upon height of the fences and > location. At the location and height I have them, I have no reduction in > cruise speed. > > 5. I think they should be standard on the kit... but then what do I know. I > think everyone should move to forward hinging doors;) > > Rodney Brim, > PS I have a picture and dimensions if you want them. They probably helped > save my neck as I had an ugly door pop, going inverted stall at 200 feet > coming off a runway a couple of years ago... sometimes you can use all the > stability and directional control you can get your hands on. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Jensen > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 7:30 AM > To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' > Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence > > > >From the Newsletter, some preliminary flight testing seemed to show than an > inboard aileron fence had merit for reducing takeoff distance, increasing > climb rate and perhaps reducing stall speed while not affecting cruise > performance and turning characteristics. Has this become a concensus or is > the jury still out? And, is there a standard template for such a fence? > > Chuck Jensen > XL RG > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 00:23:32 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:23:32 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3260F.694A7C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, Could you give me the measurement from some obvious point on the aircraft to the mounting points for the gas spring hard points - on the door, and on the beam -it would be greatly appreciated!!! Thank You Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of lawrence epstein Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:27 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points My hard point(s) are all inside the beam & I use the newer system for the gas spring (in the middle of the door). No problem, but I did have to spend some time trial fitting the beam/gas spring prior to mounting. Larry Epstein 173 fge >From: "Alexander Balic" >Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org >To: >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:38:09 -0500 > >about that hard point- I spoke with Brendon at the factory about that, >because I spent a lot of time fabricating 2 that would fit nicely inside the >beams, and I wanted the exact spot for placement, but he said that they >really need to go on the outside of the beam because when the door closes, >the gas spring moves across the corner, and it needs to stick out away from >the beam a bit to clear- if anyone has put them internally let me know, >because I have not quite done it yet, and would prefer (aesthetically) to >put them inside the beams. > >Alex > >-----Original Message----- >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >Behalf Of velocity xl >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 8:38 PM >To: reflector@tvbf.org >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > > >I don't no if your plans are different than mine but you might want to >look at where the door strut attaches . The new style attaches higher on >the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that area also before >you attach it to the plane. > >Ron >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" >To: "reflector" >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM >Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > > > > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but there are > > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any >reference > > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of what > > dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a 2x4 > > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper attachment. >Which > > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural adhesive >or > > microglass or sand them down or what? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Craig > > > > !----------------------------! > > ! Craig Woolston ! > > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! > > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! > > !----------------------------! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3260F.694A7C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,
Could you=20 give me the measurement from some obvious point on the aircraft to the = mounting=20 points for the gas spring hard points - on the door, and on the = beam -it=20 would be greatly appreciated!!!
 
Thank=20 You
Alex
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of lawrence=20 epstein
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:27 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam = Thickness-=20 hard points

My hard point(s) are all inside the beam & I use the newer = system for=20 the gas spring (in the middle of the door).  No problem, but I = did have=20 to spend some time trial fitting the beam/gas spring prior to = mounting.

Larry Epstein

173 fge

>From: "Alexander Balic"
>Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
>To:
>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard = points=20
>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:38:09 -0500=20
>=20
>about that hard point- I spoke with Brendon at the = factory=20 about that,=20
>because I spent a lot of time fabricating 2 that would = fit=20 nicely inside the=20
>beams, and I wanted the exact spot for placement, but = he said=20 that they=20
>really need to go on the outside of the beam because = when the=20 door closes,=20
>the gas spring moves across the corner, and it needs to = stick=20 out away from=20
>the beam a bit to clear- if anyone has put them = internally let=20 me know,=20
>because I have not quite done it yet, and would prefer=20 (aesthetically) to=20
>put them inside the beams.=20
>=20
>Alex=20
>=20
>-----Original Message-----=20
>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On=20
>Behalf Of velocity xl=20
>Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 8:38 PM=20
>To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness=20
>=20
>=20
>I don't no if your plans are different than mine but = you might=20 want to=20
>look at where the door strut attaches . The new style = attaches=20 higher on=20
>the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that = area also=20 before=20
>you attach it to the plane.=20
>=20
>Ron=20
>----- Original Message -----=20
>From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" =
>To: "reflector"
>Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM=20
>Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness=20
>=20
>=20
> > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into = the=20 airplane but there are=20
> > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. = I can't=20 find any=20
>reference=20
> > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending = on your=20 opinion of what=20
> > dimension I talking about) should be. The only = reference=20 is that a 2x4=20
> > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat = belt upper=20 attachment.=20
>Which=20
> > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps = with=20 structural adhesive=20
>or=20
> > microglass or sand them down or what?=20
> >=20
> > Thanks,=20
> >=20
> > Craig=20
> >=20
> > !----------------------------!=20
> > ! Craig Woolston !=20
> > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA !=20
> > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net !=20
> > !----------------------------!=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________=20
> > To change your email address, visit=20
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=20
> >=20
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>_______________________________________________=20
>To change your email address, visit=20
>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=20
>=20
>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20
>=20
>=20
>_______________________________________________=20
>To change your email address, visit=20 http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=20
>=20
>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20

Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months = FREE*.=20 _______________________________________________ To change your email = address,=20 visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the = gallery!=20 tvbf:jamaicangoose
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C3260F.694A7C80-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 00:30:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:30:58 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:dark colors In-Reply-To: <200305251909.h4PJ9Uvh008536@dax.awpi.com> Message-ID: sure, you can do it, since these do not take a lot of stress/ and or do not face the sun, I can't see a problem there, I remember one of the old factory aircraft was painted a deep orange, and then bright pink, to my knowledge, it never fell from the sky- just be careful about the cowling, it might not hold the plane up, but it takes more stress than you think, there is a large negative pressure area back there trying to suck it off the back of the plane... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of doug.holub@att.net Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 1:09 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:dark colors Is there any reason why I can't paint the non-structural parts of my Velocity a dark color? I'm considering bright red to make the plane more visible. Couldn't I paint the wheel pants and the cowling bright red? How about the two access covers on the nose? How about the underside of the fuselage, strakes, and wings? Doug Holub _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 00:49:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:49:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q In-Reply-To: <010101c3262d$eba74e60$501c2343@mshome.net> Message-ID: Well, see there, my old argument about why velocity has an apparent safety record problem is proven once again -I don't want to start that argument up again, but really, I think that Velocity has a higher non builder or partial builder pilot percentage than most of the simpler aircraft, and since they are not intimately familiar with what they are flying, it is causing trouble for us with the insurance folks. I can guarantee you that anyone who has built an RG and dropped that gear a hundred times with the dump valve during fit up/testing like I have would have calmly done it in the air. When I first read the story I assumed that he had dropped it with the dump valve, and it didn't lock down because of a dead gas spring, but of course there are other explanations to what happened. What to do? I don't know........ as long at there are folks with more money than time, this will continue. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of S Baker Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:02 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q I believe the following to be true regarding the recent (nose) gear up landing of N6Q ... (If wrong, I stand ready to be corrected). The aircraft experienced an alternator failure during a cross country flight. The pilot did not recognize this condition until the avionics fell off line. Few, if any steps were taken to conserve the remaining power in the battery. Pilot attempted to cycle the gear down with electrical power upon reaching destination. Main gear fell into down and locked position - nose gear experienced partial travel. For some reason the pilot did not attempt a manual gear extension. Pilot was aware of "no green light" indication for the nose - and elected to land anyway. Nose gear collapsed upon landing. Pilot was new to Velocity - had gone through the transition course - and did not have a lot of experience with RG aircraft operations. Scott B. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 13:35:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:35:50 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps the emergency procedures should be stressed a bit more during the training phase for that particular velocity. Mike From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Balic Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 6:49 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Well, see there, my old argument about why velocity has an apparent safety record problem is proven once again -I don't want to start that argument up again, but really, I think that Velocity has a higher non builder or partial builder pilot percentage than most of the simpler aircraft, and since they are not intimately familiar with what they are flying, it is causing trouble for us with the insurance folks. I can guarantee you that anyone who has built an RG and dropped that gear a hundred times with the dump valve during fit up/testing like I have would have calmly done it in the air. When I first read the story I assumed that he had dropped it with the dump valve, and it didn't lock down because of a dead gas spring, but of course there are other explanations to what happened. What to do? I don't know........ as long at there are folks with more money than time, this will continue. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of S Baker Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:02 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q I believe the following to be true regarding the recent (nose) gear up landing of N6Q ... (If wrong, I stand ready to be corrected). The aircraft experienced an alternator failure during a cross country flight. The pilot did not recognize this condition until the avionics fell off line. Few, if any steps were taken to conserve the remaining power in the battery. Pilot attempted to cycle the gear down with electrical power upon reaching destination. Main gear fell into down and locked position - nose gear experienced partial travel. For some reason the pilot did not attempt a manual gear extension. Pilot was aware of "no green light" indication for the nose - and elected to land anyway. Nose gear collapsed upon landing. Pilot was new to Velocity - had gone through the transition course - and did not have a lot of experience with RG aircraft operations. Scott B. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 14:19:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:19:01 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:dark colors References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030529083826.02f9cb90@pop.charter.net> Message-ID: <002f01c326ae$0969cec0$ca204ed8@mshome.net> I have Omega temperature telltale labels on the winglets and the highest temp so far is 130 degrees. In case of extended outside storage I made some large white covers for the winglets. My Velocity has red trim on the leading edges of the winglets and the nose. See the cover of an upcoming CONTACT magazine. The magazine is black and white but at least the color version is supposed to go on the website according to Patrick Panzera. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:dark colors > Mine is bright red on top of the fuselage, stripes on the sides and stripes > on the verticals. See http://www.berkutengineering.com/media/reno2.jpg > > and it hasn't been a problem. One thing to be careful of is what shade of > red you use. Red is the worst color for absorbing heat (other than black, > of course) so get a red that's more of a deeply saturated pink, not blood > red or fire engine red. > > The underside you can paint any color you want. > > > At 07:09 PM 5/25/03 +0000, you wrote: > >Is there any reason why I can't paint the non-structural parts of my Velocity > >a dark color? I'm considering bright red to make the plane more visible. > >Couldn't I paint the wheel pants and the cowling bright red? How about the > >two access covers on the nose? How about the underside of the fuselage, > >strakes, and wings? > > > >Doug Holub > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 14:53:48 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:53:48 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Message-ID: <134.206709f7.2c08bc6c@aol.com> In a message dated 5/29/03 4:51:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, alex157@direcway.com writes: << What to do? I don't know........ as long at there are folks with more money than time, this will continue. >> Well said Alex. TEC From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 15:35:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:35:56 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Message-ID: Confessions of a Sinner: Because of unusual circumstances, most beyond my control, I fall into the middle of the "more money than time" pack that was referenced in Balic's $0.02. It's not really that I have a lot of money, its just that I have almost no time. Add to the situation fewer than a handful of flying hours in anything in the last 4 years (including 0 time in complex or high performance), and you may ask yourself, what is that fool doing buying a XL RG 300. Well, my feelings are not hurt if you thought that because those were my EXACT feelings after the first couple hours of dual. My instructor reminded me I was supposed to set back and enjoy myself. Yeh, right! When the insurance company originally conveyed the requirements of 15 hours dual and 10 solo cross country, my first thought was "those scoundrels." After those first couple hours dual, I thought "that's about right!" Like all transitions, one struggles along until those "golden" moments when things feel and look right, and you can repeat it. One of the last things the Instructor and I did was spend 1-2 hours doing nothing but talking about emergency procedures. Then, we went out and flew them. Including gear failure (yes, the dump valve works!) and engine outs from final, base and downwind; all accomplished safely and easily. Although, as we were over the numbers for the downwind engine out procedure, the tower told us to go around. It seems he was a little concerned about a gearless plane coming over the numbers (even though he had been told in advance of the exercise). By the time he called, we were actually in the process of lowering the gear and everything was in good shape but the go-around was good practice and its nice to know that tower-guy is paying attention. This week I brought the plane home to TN. I landed at TYS (9,000') before moving it over to its base at DKX (3,500') the next day. 3,500' is a great plenty as long as you're right on the airspeed and altitude over the numbers...something that wasn't always the case during the initial dual. With a little head wind, I landed with lots of room to spare. Am I now a great pilot, even a good pilot? Not hardly. Am I a safe pilot that represents a minimum of danger to others as well as my self? I'm getting there. But what I am for sure, is a conservative pilot. Weather, runway, cross wind and mechanical conditions all must be above-good before venturing forth. I call this whole problem the "Thurmond Munson Syndrome." For those with a couple of gray hairs you will remember Munson, an All-Star catcher with the Yankees, bought a Lear jet and was flying it with something like 100 TT of flying. One flight ended about 100 yards short when he got low and slow and didn't have the turbines spooled up. In the end, just because you have the money to buy it (or build it) doesn't mean you have the ability to fly it. Fortunately, even the ham-handed can get there (I'm proof), but it takes good instruction, time and practice. There's good instructors out there--take the time and take advantage of them! Chuck N27GV P.S. Special thanks to Steve Bisso CFI (I saw him squirming over there a couple times--I couldn't tell if he had hemorrhoids or if I was giving 'em to him) for the time and patience. From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 15:36:00 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Paul M. Klahn) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:36:00 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c326b8$cb24a440$0201a8c0@PMK> Chuck, You've got a great attitude and perspective. (And not a bad pen, I might add!) Happy flying... Cheers, Paul Klahn From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 16:03:35 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (lawrence epstein) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:03:35 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points Message-ID: I will take some measurements this weekend. I am not sure that they will be that helpful. Location will depend on which gas spring you use, location of door mounting, hinges, etc. My installation is not from any manual,but from the reflector/velocity views a couple/few years back.. I think it is similar to the one now in use ,but not sure. I think the best way is to trial fit the beam with clecos/clamps & then the gas spring. Then locate the hard point. Larry Epstein 173 FGE > >Larry, >Could you give me the measurement from some obvious point on the aircraft >to >the mounting points for the gas spring hard points - on the door, and on >the >beam -it would be greatly appreciated!!! > >Thank You >Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >Behalf >Of lawrence epstein > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:27 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points > > > My hard point(s) are all inside the beam & I use the newer system for >the >gas spring (in the middle of the door). No problem, but I did have to >spend >some time trial fitting the beam/gas spring prior to mounting. > > Larry Epstein > > 173 fge > > > > >From: "Alexander Balic" > >Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org > >To: > >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points > >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:38:09 -0500 > > > >about that hard point- I spoke with Brendon at the factory about that, > >because I spent a lot of time fabricating 2 that would fit nicely >inside >the > >beams, and I wanted the exact spot for placement, but he said that they > >really need to go on the outside of the beam because when the door >closes, > >the gas spring moves across the corner, and it needs to stick out away >from > >the beam a bit to clear- if anyone has put them internally let me know, > >because I have not quite done it yet, and would prefer (aesthetically) >to > >put them inside the beams. > > > >Alex > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >Behalf Of velocity xl > >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 8:38 PM > >To: reflector@tvbf.org > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > > > > > >I don't no if your plans are different than mine but you might want to > >look at where the door strut attaches . The new style attaches higher >on > >the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that area also before > >you attach it to the plane. > > > >Ron > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" > >To: "reflector" > >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM > >Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > > > > > > > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but >there >are > > > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any > >reference > > > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of >what > > > dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a >2x4 > > > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper >attachment. > >Which > > > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural >adhesive > >or > > > microglass or sand them down or what? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > !----------------------------! > > > ! Craig Woolston ! > > > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! > > > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! > > > !----------------------------! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >_______________________________________________ To change your email >address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the >gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 16:10:10 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:10:10 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chuck, If all non-builder pilots were as responsible as you are, I don't think we would have this problem, and my post obviously didn't apply to everyone who hasn't built the aircraft that they fly. I know that there are a lot of pilots out there that take the time to go over every inch and every procedure of their new aircraft. but unfortunately, there are others (the ones in the NTSB reports) that grab the keys and go. Just getting some flight training in the factory aircraft, or even the one that is purchased does not necessarily give you the information on how to handle every emergency- I feel that the Velocity is just about as easy to fly as a low performance spam can (except on final with the lack of barn doors to slow it down) but learning to fly it isn't the problem, most pilots should be able to get the hang of it with the hours of dual instruction that you mentioned, but I think that most accidents have resulted from systems mismanagement; fuel, electrical, ect. and these things take a lot of time to get up to speed on if you didn't put them in the plane yourself, and since no two are built alike, it is difficult even for the factory to help with this problem. Even if the builder takes the time to go over everything that he or she can think of with the buyer, there will still be some things that they will miss. One velocity that I was helping to work on had 2 air pressure switches installed for the landing gear system, so we could not figure out why the gear did not work as per the manual, fortunately, the installer was just a phone call away, and he walked us through this particular system. Would this have come up during a purchase debriefing? maybe, could I have contacted him by cell phone at midnight while I was circling my alternate with no gear? maybe, (actually in this case this was not a safety related situation, because the gear would still have gone down and locked with the dump valve) but it is important to almost disassemble the aircraft and reassemble it to know exactly what you have, because not everything will be obvious. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 8:36 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Confessions of a Sinner: Because of unusual circumstances, most beyond my control, I fall into the middle of the "more money than time" pack that was referenced in Balic's $0.02. It's not really that I have a lot of money, its just that I have almost no time. Add to the situation fewer than a handful of flying hours in anything in the last 4 years (including 0 time in complex or high performance), and you may ask yourself, what is that fool doing buying a XL RG 300. Well, my feelings are not hurt if you thought that because those were my EXACT feelings after the first couple hours of dual. My instructor reminded me I was supposed to set back and enjoy myself. Yeh, right! When the insurance company originally conveyed the requirements of 15 hours dual and 10 solo cross country, my first thought was "those scoundrels." After those first couple hours dual, I thought "that's about right!" Like all transitions, one struggles along until those "golden" moments when things feel and look right, and you can repeat it. One of the last things the Instructor and I did was spend 1-2 hours doing nothing but talking about emergency procedures. Then, we went out and flew them. Including gear failure (yes, the dump valve works!) and engine outs from final, base and downwind; all accomplished safely and easily. Although, as we were over the numbers for the downwind engine out procedure, the tower told us to go around. It seems he was a little concerned about a gearless plane coming over the numbers (even though he had been told in advance of the exercise). By the time he called, we were actually in the process of lowering the gear and everything was in good shape but the go-around was good practice and its nice to know that tower-guy is paying attention. This week I brought the plane home to TN. I landed at TYS (9,000') before moving it over to its base at DKX (3,500') the next day. 3,500' is a great plenty as long as you're right on the airspeed and altitude over the numbers...something that wasn't always the case during the initial dual. With a little head wind, I landed with lots of room to spare. Am I now a great pilot, even a good pilot? Not hardly. Am I a safe pilot that represents a minimum of danger to others as well as my self? I'm getting there. But what I am for sure, is a conservative pilot. Weather, runway, cross wind and mechanical conditions all must be above-good before venturing forth. I call this whole problem the "Thurmond Munson Syndrome." For those with a couple of gray hairs you will remember Munson, an All-Star catcher with the Yankees, bought a Lear jet and was flying it with something like 100 TT of flying. One flight ended about 100 yards short when he got low and slow and didn't have the turbines spooled up. In the end, just because you have the money to buy it (or build it) doesn't mean you have the ability to fly it. Fortunately, even the ham-handed can get there (I'm proof), but it takes good instruction, time and practice. There's good instructors out there--take the time and take advantage of them! Chuck N27GV P.S. Special thanks to Steve Bisso CFI (I saw him squirming over there a couple times--I couldn't tell if he had hemorrhoids or if I was giving 'em to him) for the time and patience. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 16:38:06 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:38:06 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: probably the best way to dot it I agree Larry, how about this though- I know on the new installation, the gas spring goes over center at some point , so it helps to keep the door closed as well as open, so in the fully closed position, how far out is the spring extended from it's most closed position.- 1", 2", 1/2" ? if you could give me your measurements, then I will at least have a really good starting point, since my hard points are only 1" side, I don't have much latitude to move the spring once they are installed... -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of lawrence epstein Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 9:04 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points I will take some measurements this weekend. I am not sure that they will be that helpful. Location will depend on which gas spring you use, location of door mounting, hinges, etc. My installation is not from any manual,but from the reflector/velocity views a couple/few years back.. I think it is similar to the one now in use ,but not sure. I think the best way is to trial fit the beam with clecos/clamps & then the gas spring. Then locate the hard point. Larry Epstein 173 FGE > >Larry, >Could you give me the measurement from some obvious point on the aircraft >to >the mounting points for the gas spring hard points - on the door, and on >the >beam -it would be greatly appreciated!!! > >Thank You >Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On >Behalf >Of lawrence epstein > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:27 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points > > > My hard point(s) are all inside the beam & I use the newer system for >the >gas spring (in the middle of the door). No problem, but I did have to >spend >some time trial fitting the beam/gas spring prior to mounting. > > Larry Epstein > > 173 fge > > > > >From: "Alexander Balic" > >Reply-To: reflector@tvbf.org > >To: > >Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness- hard points > >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:38:09 -0500 > > > >about that hard point- I spoke with Brendon at the factory about that, > >because I spent a lot of time fabricating 2 that would fit nicely >inside >the > >beams, and I wanted the exact spot for placement, but he said that they > >really need to go on the outside of the beam because when the door >closes, > >the gas spring moves across the corner, and it needs to stick out away >from > >the beam a bit to clear- if anyone has put them internally let me know, > >because I have not quite done it yet, and would prefer (aesthetically) >to > >put them inside the beams. > > > >Alex > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > >Behalf Of velocity xl > >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 8:38 PM > >To: reflector@tvbf.org > >Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > > > > > >I don't no if your plans are different than mine but you might want to > >look at where the door strut attaches . The new style attaches higher >on > >the beam so you may want to but a hard point in that area also before > >you attach it to the plane. > > > >Ron > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Craig and/or Denise Woolston" > >To: "reflector" > >Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:51 AM > >Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Thickness > > > > > > > John and I have rough fit the carbon beams into the airplane but >there >are > > > some healthy gaps (3/16" or less) in some areas. I can't find any > >reference > > > in the manual as to how thick (or high depending on your opinion of >what > > > dimension I talking about) should be. The only reference is that a >2x4 > > > should fit inside the carbon beam for the seat belt upper >attachment. > >Which > > > would say about 1.5" Do you just fill the gaps with structural >adhesive > >or > > > microglass or sand them down or what? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > !----------------------------! > > > ! Craig Woolston ! > > > ! XL-FG in Palmdale, CA ! > > > ! cdwoolston@earthlink.net ! > > > !----------------------------! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit > >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >To change your email address, visit >http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >-- > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >_______________________________________________ To change your email >address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the >gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 17:23:25 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Tom Martino) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:23:25 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Message-ID: There is no doubt in my mind that builders (in the experimental category) and restorers (in the certified category eventually make better all around pilots in those specific aircraft they built or restored. I love the feeling of knowing every nut, bolt, tube, hinge, noise, rattle, vibration and overall "feeling" of the aircraft. When an aircraft speaks to you and you understand the language ... there is no better combination. That is not to say non-builders can never be as good ... they just have way more catching up to do. -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Balic [mailto:alex157@direcway.com] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 9:10 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Chuck, If all non-builder pilots were as responsible as you are, I don't think we would have this problem, and my post obviously didn't apply to everyone who hasn't built the aircraft that they fly. I know that there are a lot of pilots out there that take the time to go over every inch and every procedure of their new aircraft. but unfortunately, there are others (the ones in the NTSB reports) that grab the keys and go. Just getting some flight training in the factory aircraft, or even the one that is purchased does not necessarily give you the information on how to handle every emergency- I feel that the Velocity is just about as easy to fly as a low performance spam can (except on final with the lack of barn doors to slow it down) but learning to fly it isn't the problem, most pilots should be able to get the hang of it with the hours of dual instruction that you mentioned, but I think that most accidents have resulted from systems mismanagement; fuel, electrical, ect. and these things take a lot of time to get up to speed on if you didn't put them in the plane yourself, and since no two are built alike, it is difficult even for the factory to help with this problem. Even if the builder takes the time to go over everything that he or she can think of with the buyer, there will still be some things that they will miss. One velocity that I was helping to work on had 2 air pressure switches installed for the landing gear system, so we could not figure out why the gear did not work as per the manual, fortunately, the installer was just a phone call away, and he walked us through this particular system. Would this have come up during a purchase debriefing? maybe, could I have contacted him by cell phone at midnight while I was circling my alternate with no gear? maybe, (actually in this case this was not a safety related situation, because the gear would still have gone down and locked with the dump valve) but it is important to almost disassemble the aircraft and reassemble it to know exactly what you have, because not everything will be obvious. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 8:36 AM To: 'reflector@tvbf.org' Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q Confessions of a Sinner: Because of unusual circumstances, most beyond my control, I fall into the middle of the "more money than time" pack that was referenced in Balic's $0.02. It's not really that I have a lot of money, its just that I have almost no time. Add to the situation fewer than a handful of flying hours in anything in the last 4 years (including 0 time in complex or high performance), and you may ask yourself, what is that fool doing buying a XL RG 300. Well, my feelings are not hurt if you thought that because those were my EXACT feelings after the first couple hours of dual. My instructor reminded me I was supposed to set back and enjoy myself. Yeh, right! When the insurance company originally conveyed the requirements of 15 hours dual and 10 solo cross country, my first thought was "those scoundrels." After those first couple hours dual, I thought "that's about right!" Like all transitions, one struggles along until those "golden" moments when things feel and look right, and you can repeat it. One of the last things the Instructor and I did was spend 1-2 hours doing nothing but talking about emergency procedures. Then, we went out and flew them. Including gear failure (yes, the dump valve works!) and engine outs from final, base and downwind; all accomplished safely and easily. Although, as we were over the numbers for the downwind engine out procedure, the tower told us to go around. It seems he was a little concerned about a gearless plane coming over the numbers (even though he had been told in advance of the exercise). By the time he called, we were actually in the process of lowering the gear and everything was in good shape but the go-around was good practice and its nice to know that tower-guy is paying attention. This week I brought the plane home to TN. I landed at TYS (9,000') before moving it over to its base at DKX (3,500') the next day. 3,500' is a great plenty as long as you're right on the airspeed and altitude over the numbers...something that wasn't always the case during the initial dual. With a little head wind, I landed with lots of room to spare. Am I now a great pilot, even a good pilot? Not hardly. Am I a safe pilot that represents a minimum of danger to others as well as my self? I'm getting there. But what I am for sure, is a conservative pilot. Weather, runway, cross wind and mechanical conditions all must be above-good before venturing forth. I call this whole problem the "Thurmond Munson Syndrome." For those with a couple of gray hairs you will remember Munson, an All-Star catcher with the Yankees, bought a Lear jet and was flying it with something like 100 TT of flying. One flight ended about 100 yards short when he got low and slow and didn't have the turbines spooled up. In the end, just because you have the money to buy it (or build it) doesn't mean you have the ability to fly it. Fortunately, even the ham-handed can get there (I'm proof), but it takes good instruction, time and practice. There's good instructors out there--take the time and take advantage of them! Chuck N27GV P.S. Special thanks to Steve Bisso CFI (I saw him squirming over there a couple times--I couldn't tell if he had hemorrhoids or if I was giving 'em to him) for the time and patience. _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 19:08:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Message-ID: <20030530180838.82460.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I'm ranting. After doing some research on elevator balancing I've come up w/ a reflector post that says the elevator should be balanced without the sparrow strainer; VV volume 12 "Views from the West" where Machado clearly states the side of the elevator w/ the sparrow strainer is going to need more counterweight to compensate for it (he's obviously balancing w/ the strainer on); and the manual that doesn't mention the strainer in the elevator balancing section of chapter 4. What gives?? It seems more research only leads to more conflicting information on a LOT of subjects. Shouldn't the generally accepted standard/practice for this sort of stuff be pretty well set in stone at this point?? Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 19:36:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:24 EDT Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Message-ID: <1f1.9df95d9.2c08fea8@aol.com> --part1_1f1.9df95d9.2c08fea8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently balanced my elevators and called the factory for clarification. I was told: It IS OK to balance the elevators with the bottom surface level, and that the elevator should be balanced WithOut the strainer. so.. that is what I did. Kurt Winker. --part1_1f1.9df95d9.2c08fea8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recently balanced my elevators and called the factor= y for clarification. I was told:

It IS OK to balance the elevators with the bottom surface level, and that th= e elevator should be balanced WithOut the strainer. 

so.. that is what I did.

Kurt Winker. --part1_1f1.9df95d9.2c08fea8_boundary-- From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 19:36:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reflector: elevator stick forces Message-ID: <20030530183659.81096.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> "Alexander Balic" wrote: <> Alex and Steve, Actually, at higher speeds FORWARD stick/trim force is needed to bring the trailing edge of the elevator up enough to maintain level flight. Since both the sparrow strainer's inverted airfoil and its negative incidence are working to pull the trailing edge of the elevator down, the strainer actually INCREASES the stick/spring force needed at higher speeds. In other words, adding the strainer will make the plane LESS pitch sensitive (i.e., more pull needed in a turn) at these speeds. This also explains what Ronnie Brown experienced after putting on his strainer: "it caused the nose to require less up trim, so much so that I don't quite have enough down trim when I am flying by myself and in a power on descent which is higher speed than cruise. But it works great when I have a passenger." Conversely, having the strainer on will work to reduce the stick/spring force needed at lower speeds since in ths situation the trailing edge of the elevator needs to be down to maintain level flight. According to Scott Baker, the primary function of the strainer is to dampen out pitch deviations from say light turbulence. We already have an trim system, it's electric... Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 20:11:08 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:11:08 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Message-ID: That's why its called EXPERIMENTAL. -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 2:09 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Okay, I'm ranting. After doing some research on elevator balancing I've come up w/ a reflector post that says the elevator should be balanced without the sparrow strainer; VV volume 12 "Views from the West" where Machado clearly states the side of the elevator w/ the sparrow strainer is going to need more counterweight to compensate for it (he's obviously balancing w/ the strainer on); and the manual that doesn't mention the strainer in the elevator balancing section of chapter 4. What gives?? It seems more research only leads to more conflicting information on a LOT of subjects. Shouldn't the generally accepted standard/practice for this sort of stuff be pretty well set in stone at this point?? Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 19:43:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:43:15 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Message-ID: Hi pat... I'm not sure why they even call it a sparrow strainer...Just a nick name I guess...We use it as an aerodynamic trim tab...Balance the elevator with the trim tab on if your going to use it... Put the extra weight in the center position... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 21:35:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Paul Calhoun) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:35:31 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing In-Reply-To: <20030530180838.82460.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004401c326eb$03f0ab20$3a01a8c0@medamb.org> Pat, My understanding is that the reason the elevator is balanced without the sparrow strainer is that the weight of the strainer is neutralized by the force of the air pushing upwards against the bottom of the strainer during flight. I agree that Mark's comment is misleading but the factory has always been clear that balancing is done without the strainer. Paul -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On Behalf Of Pat Shea Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 11:09 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Okay, I'm ranting. After doing some research on elevator balancing I've come up w/ a reflector post that says the elevator should be balanced without the sparrow strainer; VV volume 12 "Views from the West" where Machado clearly states the side of the elevator w/ the sparrow strainer is going to need more counterweight to compensate for it (he's obviously balancing w/ the strainer on); and the manual that doesn't mention the strainer in the elevator balancing section of chapter 4. What gives?? It seems more research only leads to more conflicting information on a LOT of subjects. Shouldn't the generally accepted standard/practice for this sort of stuff be pretty well set in stone at this point?? Pat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Fri May 30 23:43:44 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:43:44 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Location References: Message-ID: <005b01c326fc$edc60ea0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> While we are talking about carbon beams, let me suggest that you make sure that the top of the beam is installed far enough rearward that it doesn't prevent you from having a good flange to install the weather stripping on. I let my pilot side beam get a bit too far forward and have nearly no flange for my door weather strip. The right side worked out fine. Just something I didn't pay enough attention to while I was installing the carbon beams in my 173 Elite RG. Ronnie From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 00:34:56 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Dean May) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:34:56 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroflash strobes for sale Message-ID: <000a01c32704$1538c3e0$6906f342@owc.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C326DA.2B09E2A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an AEROFLASH nav/strobe light kit for sale. I am switching to a = 24v system and these are 12v. There have never been out of the box, = except to look at them once or twice, and are brand new. Aircraft = spruce lists the kit (P/N 156-0039DF) for $338.95, and I will sell them = for $250.00. Anyone interested? Dean May STGRG ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C326DA.2B09E2A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have an AEROFLASH nav/strobe = light kit=20 for sale.  I am switching to a 24v system and these are 12v.  = There=20 have never been out of the box, except to look at them once or twice, = and are=20 brand new.  Aircraft spruce lists the kit (P/N 156-0039DF) for = $338.95, and=20 I will sell them for $250.00.  Anyone interested?
 
Dean May
STGRG
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C326DA.2B09E2A0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 01:29:50 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:29:50 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Location In-Reply-To: <005b01c326fc$edc60ea0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> Message-ID: Ronnie, Did you install the beams before finishing the door cutouts? or did it just get installed a little too close to the edge? I am making my beams flush with the external skin (about 3/4" back from the inner door flange) so I hope that I don't have a problem with the stripping. Alex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 4:44 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Location While we are talking about carbon beams, let me suggest that you make sure that the top of the beam is installed far enough rearward that it doesn't prevent you from having a good flange to install the weather stripping on. I let my pilot side beam get a bit too far forward and have nearly no flange for my door weather strip. The right side worked out fine. Just something I didn't pay enough attention to while I was installing the carbon beams in my 173 Elite RG. Ronnie _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 02:16:21 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:16:21 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Location References: Message-ID: <00e901c32712$3f6b5840$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> No, I installed the beams after cutting out the doors and laying up the triax door edge flanges. I just didn't notice that I needed more flange. Sounds like yours will work out fine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Balic" To: Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 8:29 PM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Location > Ronnie, > Did you install the beams before finishing the door cutouts? or did it just > get installed a little too close to the edge? I am making my beams flush > with the external skin (about 3/4" back from the inner door flange) so I > hope that I don't have a problem with the stripping. > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Ronnie Brown > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 4:44 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Carbon Beam Location > > > While we are talking about carbon beams, let me suggest that you make sure > that the top of the beam is installed far enough rearward that it doesn't > prevent you from having a good flange to install the weather stripping on. > I let my pilot side beam get a bit too far forward and have nearly no flange > for my door weather strip. The right side worked out fine. Just something I > didn't pay enough attention to while I was installing the carbon beams in my > 173 Elite RG. > > Ronnie > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 02:24:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Al Gietzen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:24:19 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c32713$5f37f330$6400a8c0@BigAl> Not to exaggerate it's importance, nor claim that I'm an expert, but here's my take on whether to balance with or without our "aerodynamic trim tab" (how about aero t-tab). Flutter, in very simple terms, is an instability between aerodynamic forces and inertial forces. The idea of the counterweights is to make the elevator inertially neutral (as the canard is accelerated up or down) about the hinge line in neutral flight position. This would imply that it should be done with the aero t-tab in place. Perhaps, since the aerodynamic force on the aero t-tab is opposite the elevator, someone has been able to conclude the balancing should not include it. I'd guess it is of little importance one way or the other because of it's small weight; but in any case, I think we're all guessing. Al >>>I'm not sure why they even call it a sparrow strainer...Just a nick name I guess...We use it as an aerodynamic trim tab...Balance the elevator with the trim tab on if your going to use it... Put the extra weight in the center position... Best... Steve<<< _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 03:46:16 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:46:16 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroflash strobes for sale In-Reply-To: <000a01c32704$1538c3e0$6906f342@owc.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C326F4.E5D03890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dean, If you have not sold them, I will take them for that price. Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dean May Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 6:35 PM To: reflector@awpi.com Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroflash strobes for sale I have an AEROFLASH nav/strobe light kit for sale. I am switching to a 24v system and these are 12v. There have never been out of the box, except to look at them once or twice, and are brand new. Aircraft spruce lists the kit (P/N 156-0039DF) for $338.95, and I will sell them for $250.00. Anyone interested? Dean May STGRG ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C326F4.E5D03890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Dean,
 
If you=20 have not sold them, I will take them for that price. =
 

Michael Pollock
Flying Velocity N173DT
Building = Cozy MKIV=20 #643
EAA #411862
EAA Chapter #1246
Technical Counselor = #4357
Based=20 at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex
 

-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Dean = May
Sent:=20 Friday, May 30, 2003 6:35 PM
To:=20 reflector@awpi.com
Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroflash strobes for=20 sale

I have an AEROFLASH nav/strobe=20 light kit for sale.  I am switching to a 24v system and = these are=20 12v.  There have never been out of the box, except to look at = them once=20 or twice, and are brand new.  Aircraft spruce lists the kit (P/N=20 156-0039DF) for $338.95, and I will sell them for $250.00.  = Anyone=20 interested?
 
Dean May
STGRG
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C326F4.E5D03890-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 06:14:23 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (reflector@tvbf.org) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:14:23 -0700 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroflash strobes for sale In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c32704$1538c3e0$6906f342@owc.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030530221305.03479ec0@pop.charter.net> I also have a set, slightly more used, about 100 hours on them (though they were probably only on about 5 hours of that.) I'll take $200 if anyone's interested. At 09:46 PM 5/30/03 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Dean, > >If you have not sold them, I will take them for that price. > > >Michael Pollock >Flying Velocity N173DT >Building Cozy MKIV #643 >EAA #411862 >EAA Chapter #1246 >Technical Counselor #4357 >Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex > >-----Original Message----- >From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf >Of Dean May >Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 6:35 PM >To: reflector@awpi.com >Subject: REFLECTOR:Aeroflash strobes for sale > >I have an AEROFLASH nav/strobe light kit for sale. I am switching to a >24v system and these are 12v. There have never been out of the box, >except to look at them once or twice, and are brand new. Aircraft spruce >lists the kit (P/N 156-0039DF) for $338.95, and I will sell them for >$250.00. Anyone interested? > >Dean May >STGRG From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 07:01:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Overman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030531060138.50822.qmail@web41314.mail.yahoo.com> --- steve korney wrote: > Hi pat... > > I'm not sure why they even call it a sparrow > strainer...Just a nick name I > guess...We use it as an aerodynamic trim What would happen to a sparrow who happened to fly just below the canard & just above the sparrow strainer? He would get strained through the sparrow strainer. John __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 10:39:57 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Pat Shea) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 02:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing In-Reply-To: <000001c32713$5f37f330$6400a8c0@BigAl> Message-ID: <20030531093957.83853.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Al, I claim to be less than an expert. Given the info we have to work with, I agree it sounds like balancing the elevator with or without the strainer and the ailerons either bottom surface level or in-trail will probably get you safely up to VNE. Otherwise, Velocities would be falling from the sky since it is clear from this and other discussions many of those flying are rigged both ways. The issue, for me, then comes down to margins: which will flutter first, 9lb. ailerons balanced bottom surface level or 9 1/2lb. ailerons balanced in-trial?? I'm *guessing* the former and therefore balanced mine in-trail. I'm also going to balance my elevators so the trailing edge is slightly up from in-trial w/ the strainer on (estimated single pilot elevator position at VNE). Obviously the ultimate information would be knowing which rigging yields the greatest over VNE margin before fluttering. Any takers (I'm joking)? Pat --- Al Gietzen wrote: > Not to exaggerate it's importance, nor claim that > I'm an expert, but > here's my take on whether to balance with or without > our "aerodynamic > trim tab" (how about aero t-tab). Flutter, in very > simple terms, is an > instability between aerodynamic forces and inertial > forces. The idea of > the counterweights is to make the elevator > inertially neutral (as the > canard is accelerated up or down) about the hinge > line in neutral flight > position. This would imply that it should be done > with the aero t-tab > in place. > > Perhaps, since the aerodynamic force on the aero > t-tab is opposite the > elevator, someone has been able to conclude the > balancing should not > include it. I'd guess it is of little importance > one way or the other > because of it's small weight; but in any case, I > think we're all > guessing. > > Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 12:25:31 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:25:31 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight Message-ID: <001901c32767$58a79bc0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C32745.D13A6E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another Velocity in the skies! http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/Velocity%20RG%20Elite_Schiferl.asp#TopOfPage Ronnie ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C32745.D13A6E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another Velocity in the skies!
 
http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/Velocity%20RG%20El= ite_Schiferl.asp#TopOfPage
 
Ronnie
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C32745.D13A6E40-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 12:53:19 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Ronnie Brown) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:53:19 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: Message-ID: <007201c3276b$3b4ea6a0$ef414744@atlaga.adelphia.net> I only have to taxi through the grass - about 300 feet - to get to the paved runway. The wheels roll through the grass and stirs up the bugs just in time for the prop to scoop them up. Every time I fly, I come back with a badly stained, black and red coating on my beautiful white Catto prop. Now I mow the taxi path every time I go flying, helps a little. Ronnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" To: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:26 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > I second the idea that anything less than a "most excellent" grass strip is > hard on props. I have a MT prop on an XL RG that has been flow off a grass > strip (better than average but less than perfect) and, with only 100 hours > on it, it looks like it had been used to bludgeon Saddam...when he was > hiding behind a rock. > > Chuck > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of Tstockmn@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:43 AM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > > > I've flown my 173FGE with a fixed pitch prop off of grass strips and you > need a lot of runway with clear areas off the end. nlike a spam can, you > can't haul back on the yoke to keep the nose wheel off or else you risk > hitting the prop. > > The velocity specs are for a hard surface runway. You also need to worry > about prop damage. Its amazing what a pusher sucks into the prop, they > make great runway-wacuum cleaners. > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 13:34:24 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Mike Pollock) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:34:24 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:RE: strobes In-Reply-To: <002a01c3276e$33fcd7c0$d0ff7fd8@owc.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C32747.0EC26CD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dean, I am sorry, I will not need the kit as I stated earlier. I got confused. I am in need of the version with the white light in the rear (p/n 156-0039DF). Have you tried to sell them on e-bay? Michael Pollock Flying Velocity N173DT, www.mycozy.com Building Cozy MKIV #643 EAA #411862 EAA Chapter #1246 Technical Counselor #4357 Based at TKI / NE Dallas Metroplex -----Original Message----- From: Dean May [mailto:deanmay6@owc.net] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 7:15 AM To: m.pollock@verizon.net Subject: strobes Yes they are still available. Let me know how you want them shipped. Thanks Dean May ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C32747.0EC26CD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Dean,
 
I am=20 sorry, I will not need the kit as I stated earlier. I got = confused.  I am=20 in need of the version with the white light in the rear=20 (p/n 156-0039DF).
 
Have=20 you tried to sell them on e-bay?
 

Michael Pollock
Flying = Velocity=20 N173DT, www.mycozy.com
Building Cozy MKIV = #643
EAA=20 #411862
EAA Chapter #1246
Technical Counselor #4357
Based at = TKI / NE=20 Dallas Metroplex
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean May=20 [mailto:deanmay6@owc.net]
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 7:15=20 AM
To: m.pollock@verizon.net
Subject:=20 strobes

Yes they are still available.  = Let me know=20 how you want them shipped. 
 
Thanks
 
Dean=20 May
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C32747.0EC26CD0-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 14:38:47 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Chuck Jensen) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:38:47 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32779.F6956880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" And, good looking too! -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie Brown Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 7:26 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: REFLECTOR:First Flight Another Velocity in the skies! http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/Velocity%20RG%20Elite_Schiferl.asp#TopO fPage Ronnie ------_=_NextPart_001_01C32779.F6956880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And,=20 good looking too!
-----Original Message-----
From: = reflector-admin@tvbf.org=20 [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Ronnie=20 Brown
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 7:26 AM
To:=20 reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:First=20 Flight

Another Velocity in the skies!
 
http://www.eaa.org/homebuilders/list/Velocity%20RG%20= Elite_Schiferl.asp#TopOfPage
 
Ronnie
------_=_NextPart_001_01C32779.F6956880-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 14:11:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:11:38 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Sparrow strainer In-Reply-To: <20030531060138.50822.qmail@web41314.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It would depend... Is it and African swallow or a European swallow? :) -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of John Overman Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 2:02 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing --- steve korney wrote: > Hi pat... > > I'm not sure why they even call it a sparrow > strainer...Just a nick name I > guess...We use it as an aerodynamic trim What would happen to a sparrow who happened to fly just below the canard & just above the sparrow strainer? He would get strained through the sparrow strainer. John __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 14:38:17 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Wayne Owens) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:38:17 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Nose Gear Warning Message-ID: <002801c32779$e4de3600$0100a8c0@mshome.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C32758.5D464F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those of you that have the old nose gear strut manufactured by Danny = Mayer should be aware of its weakness. The strut is pinched down in the = bends. Scott Swing told me they use better dies and don't have the = problem now. I had a violent nose gear shimmy which caused me to have to reinforce my = nose gear bulkhead. At that time I did a thorough inspection of the fork = and the strut. There was no crack visible in the strut at that time. = After those repairs I have flown passengers and even (blanch) Young = Eagles. The strut broke off the other day and went through my prop. There was = clear evidence of a pre-existing crack on the ends of the broken part. = Part of the break line had corrosion present. Three quarters of the = damage was a fresh break but the rest was old damage. The crack occurred = near where the tube exits the fuselage and is difficult to see. The event occurred at a controlled airport whose standing procedures = include closing the runway and waiting for the FSDO to permit moving = the plane. If I had a furniture dolly in the plane I could have put it = under the nose and taxied back to my hanger before they new what was = happening instead of waiting 45 minutes on a closed runway. The FAA inspector asked me to notify the factory and the owners group of = the potential problem. I have heard of others who had cracked forks = but was not personally aware of the strut itself being a problem. = Hindsight being what it is I wish I had been more discriminating. The = 43-13 has guidelines about the amount of pinch in a bend. Wayne Owens ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C32758.5D464F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Those of you that have the old nose = gear strut=20 manufactured by Danny Mayer should be aware of its weakness. The strut = is=20 pinched down in the bends. Scott Swing told me they use better dies and = don't=20 have the problem now.
 
I had a violent nose gear shimmy which = caused me to=20 have to reinforce my nose gear bulkhead. At that time I did a thorough=20 inspection of the fork and the strut.  There was no crack visible = in the=20 strut at that time. After those repairs  I have flown = passengers and=20 even (blanch) Young Eagles.
 
The strut broke off the other day and = went through=20 my prop. There was clear evidence of a pre-existing crack on the ends of = the=20 broken part. Part of the break line had corrosion present. Three = quarters of the=20 damage was a fresh break but the rest was old damage. The crack occurred = near=20 where the tube exits the fuselage and is difficult to see.
 
The event occurred at a controlled = airport whose=20 standing procedures include closing the runway and waiting for the = FSDO  to=20 permit moving the plane. If I had a furniture dolly in the plane I could = have=20 put it under the nose and taxied back to my hanger before  they new = what=20 was happening instead of waiting 45 minutes on a closed =20 runway.
 
The FAA inspector asked me to notify = the factory=20 and the owners group of the potential problem.  I have heard of = others who=20 had cracked forks  but was not personally aware of the strut itself = being a=20 problem. Hindsight being what it is I wish I had been more = discriminating. The=20 43-13 has guidelines about the amount of pinch in a bend.
Wayne Owens
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C32758.5D464F00-- From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 15:35:36 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Andy Millin) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:35:36 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Garmin 430 for sale Message-ID: Don't know if this is a good price or not, but last time I looked they were between 8K and 10K. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26436&item =2416853438 fyi & fwiw, Andy From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 16:05:38 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Jay Yu) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:05:38 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence In-Reply-To: <000001c32630$fd84f260$0a01a8c0@ent2.local> Message-ID: And me too. Thanks, Jay N86YU Velocity RGE -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of Rene Dugas Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 5:24 PM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Aileron Fence I would be interested in dimensions and locations of fences. Thanks, Rene' XL RG rdugas@bayou.com From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 17:54:18 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 16:54:18 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Message-ID: Why not put one smaller sparrow strainers on each elevator...??? That would keep both elevators loaded and there would be less chance for flutter... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 18:10:15 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (steve korney) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 17:10:15 +0000 Subject: REFLECTOR: sparrow strainer (old post) Message-ID: Tony... It is not adjustable in flight...It took two or three flights to get it right...I made new brackets and slotted the front hole so I could move the tab up and down in the front...The difference between the trim tab and the sparrow strainer is the drag that they induce...A trim tab creates a little more drag... Not that we could measure it...Also, the sparrow strainer is slightly more efficient, since it is in cleaner air behind the elevator... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 19:40:59 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Robin Ream) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:40:59 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing References: Message-ID: <004001c327a4$2e1eb4f0$9f7cce18@cj209446d> I've always wondered that myself... Any aeronautical engineers in the crowd that can answer that very good question? Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve korney" To: Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 11:54 AM Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing > Why not put one smaller sparrow strainers on each elevator...??? That would > keep both elevators loaded and there would be less chance for flutter... > > > > Best... Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 19:44:49 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Alexander Balic) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:44:49 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: that's a good question Steve, my guess is that the airfoils would be really small, and so the setup with the mounting tabs would cause more drag than they are worth, but you would think that if the wing were cut into two halves span wise, that you could attach one to each side, and at least there would be more symmetry to the setup, has anyone out there installed a strainer on both elevators? -----Original Message----- From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On Behalf Of steve korney Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:54 AM To: reflector@tvbf.org Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Elevator balancing Why not put one smaller sparrow strainers on each elevator...??? That would keep both elevators loaded and there would be less chance for flutter... Best... Steve _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 21:12:58 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:12:58 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: Message-ID: <3ED90CCA.7000608@tnstaafl.net> The altitude makes a hell of a difference. There are times in the summer when our 7200 ft runway at GNT is not enough. Scott Christopher Barber wrote: > My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established > airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew > up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is > dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a > hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it > was just me, all I need is the hanger > > Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is > about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? > Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys > flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA > > All the best, > > Chris Barber > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 22:01:01 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (Scott Derrick) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:01:01 -0600 Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q References: Message-ID: <3ED9180D.6080902@tnstaafl.net> Alex, Its no different than somebody renting or buying a new to them airplane, homebuilt or not. From my reading of the NTSB reports the homebuilt record is poor to a large degree because of very stupid things the builders have done. Stands to reason as builders are flying most of the homebuilts. Scott Alexander Balic wrote: > Well, see there, my old argument about why velocity has an apparent safety > record problem is proven once again -I don't want to start that argument up > again, but really, I think that Velocity has a higher non builder or partial > builder pilot percentage than most of the simpler aircraft, and since they > are not intimately familiar with what they are flying, it is causing trouble > for us with the insurance folks. I can guarantee you that anyone who has > built an RG and dropped that gear a hundred times with the dump valve during > fit up/testing like I have would have calmly done it in the air. When I > first read the story I assumed that he had dropped it with the dump valve, > and it didn't lock down because of a dead gas spring, but of course there > are other explanations to what happened. What to do? I don't know........ as > long at there are folks with more money than time, this will continue. > > Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On > Behalf Of S Baker > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:02 PM > To: reflector@tvbf.org > Subject: REFLECTOR:Gear Up Landing - N6Q > > > I believe the following to be true regarding the recent (nose) gear up > landing of N6Q ... (If wrong, I stand ready to be corrected). > The aircraft experienced an alternator failure during a cross country > flight. > The pilot did not recognize this condition until the avionics fell off line. > Few, if any steps were taken to conserve the remaining power in the battery. > Pilot attempted to cycle the gear down with electrical power upon reaching > destination. > Main gear fell into down and locked position - nose gear experienced partial > travel. > For some reason the pilot did not attempt a manual gear extension. > Pilot was aware of "no green light" indication for the nose - and elected to > land anyway. > Nose gear collapsed upon landing. > Pilot was new to Velocity - had gone through the transition course - and did > not have a lot of experience with RG aircraft operations. > Scott B. > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 23:44:22 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (jack davis) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:44:22 -0400 Subject: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport References: <3ED90CCA.7000608@tnstaafl.net> Message-ID: It also is dependent upon the type of prop you are running. Prior to my MT, I would not attempt a takeoff or landing on anything less than 3500 feet if I had more than myself on board. With the MT, I can routinely get off in a very short distance even when heavily loaded. With an MT, I have no problems getting into and out of a 2500 foot strip. The word of advice previously given though, is true; be extra vigilant and make sure you are not floating down the runway, unnecessarily using up a lot of runway. Jack Standard RG E, 200 hp Lycoming, MT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Derrick" To: Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:12 PM Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Help me buy a house...on an airport > The altitude makes a hell of a difference. > > There are times in the summer when our 7200 ft runway at GNT is not enough. > > Scott > > > Christopher Barber wrote: > > My S/O, Jana and I are looking at a house on a very nice, established > > airpark in Friendswood TX (Polly Ranch), just a few miles from where I grew > > up and now live. For the Houston area it is kinda expensive at $360K and is > > dated and very much 70's (more honeydo's for me to update), Bt does have a > > hanger a few feet from the house and a few feet for the runway. Hell, if it > > was just me, all I need is the hanger > > > > Anyway, I know the posted numbers on our Velocity's to land and take-off is > > about 1500 ft. The runway at Polly Ranch is 2400 ft. Is this realistic???? > > Should it be longer or will this be ok? What is the reality from you guys > > flying? Your thoughts are appreciated. TIA > > > > All the best, > > > > Chris Barber > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > From reflector@tvbf.org Sat May 31 17:11:54 2003 From: reflector@tvbf.org (John Rourke) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: REFLECTOR:Garmin 430 for sale References: Message-ID: <3ED8D44A.3070000@mcleodusa.net> Not really... I've gotten quotes anywhere from $6000 to $7000 installed, and that's new not yellow-tagged. Last time I checked was Osh 2002. -John Andy Millin wrote: >Don't know if this is a good price or not, but last time I looked they were >between 8K and 10K. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26436&item >=2416853438 > >fyi & fwiw, > >Andy > >_______________________________________________ >To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector > >Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose > > > >