REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed
Jean Prudhomme
reflector@tvbf.org
Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:23:59 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
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To answer to your letter after our phone conversation i did ask you to se=
nd
me a photo of the area where the traverse bulkhead is missing and i still
waiting since ,but i never =0D
mention i did not install this traverse on the other plane.which bulkhead=
i
think you talking about is the one above the main gear between thw firewh=
all
and the gear bulkhead???Let me know if is the one.=0D
I told you i was very busy untill june 15th and it was possible after tha=
t
time.=0D
Jean=0D
=0D
-------Original Message-------=0D
=0D
From: reflector@tvbf.org=0D
Date: Saturday, June 07, 2003 11:13:56 AM=0D
To: 'reflector@tvbf.org'=0D
Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed=0D
=0D
I recently bought a Velocity XL RG that was built without transverse bulk=
=0D
heads. Since the plane was sold as a (0) defect plane, I quizzed the=0D
owner/seller and he, in turn quizzed the Frenchman about the absence. I d=
id=0D
not fly the plane for two days (over a weekend) until I could talk to the=
=0D
factory, which I visited with the plane on the following Tuesday. The=0D
Factory's position, if I may paraphrase, is they are very important, but =
not=0D
critical for a particular flight. They advised that the bulkhead be=0D
installed at the very first opportunity.=0D
=0D
The Frenchman told the fellow that sold the plane to me that he had built=
,=0D
and was building an additional two or three RGs, in which no transverse w=
ere=0D
installed and that there had been no problems. I'm am not a structural=0D
engineer (though I stayed at the Holiday Inn last night) but the purpose,=
=0D
and need, for the transverse bulkhead seems somewhat evident.=0D
=0D
The most obvious event for stressing this area is in event of a hard land=
ing=0D
with simultaneous application brake (say, for sake of discussion, a=0D
correcting rudder on a narrow runway with a gusting crosswind), imparting=
=0D
maximum torsional force on the gear anchor point. (Given my piloting=0D
skills, that's not an impossible sequence of events.)=0D
=0D
Are the transverse bulkheads necessary? I guess one never knows until it'=
s=0D
too late, but if you take a look at the retract gear structure and think=0D
about that front bushing floating out there without support, it's not a=0D
comforting vision. The original design calls for bulkheads to be installe=
d=0D
with three layers of triax; a bit of design overkill if they were only=0D
cosmetic.=0D
=0D
In the Frenchman's defense, he indicated the absence of the bulkheads was=
=0D
not an oversight and was intentional, though he offered to install the=0D
transverse bulkheads at no cost. Clearly a generous offer, though I'm=0D
concerned since, having left a two phone message and two emails, I've sti=
ll=0D
not received any response.=0D
=0D
Suffice to say, I'm going to install them, however I have to get it done.=
=0D
=0D
Chuck=0D
N27GV, XL RG 300=0D
=0D
-----Original Message-----=0D
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On=0D
Behalf Of Greg Poole=0D
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 4:32 AM=0D
To: reflector@tvbf.org=0D
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed=0D
=0D
=0D
I have flush mounted my windows on the same model Velocity (but cannot bu=
ild=0D
as quickly as Jack obviously has).While routing the lip on the plexiglass=
=0D
windows was nerve racking (the router continually wants to write it's nam=
e=0D
on the rest of the window!), the operation was no big deal and readily ea=
sy=0D
to achieve a good result.=0D
=0D
In fact, I am likely to have to do it again if the dark tint glass I=0D
somehow managed to order (I think?) is too dark for night VFR use.=0D
=0D
If this results in the same performance (190kts!!!!!! wow!!!) that Jack=0D
indicates (it was in the back of my mind that this might optimise passage=
=0D
thru the air) then I am mighty glad I have done it - what is the point of=
=0D
owning a high performance bird and then tripping it (the bird and the air=
=0D
flow) up? Jack .....keep passing on the detailed tips - I'll willingly=0D
follow your lead including the flanged front gear doors if I can get 190k=
ts=0D
(looking seriously at 350HP peak power on a turbo'd 13B Mazda).=0D
=0D
Did someone say that our French mate isn't installing transverse bulk=0D
heads?????? I'd like to know the reasoning.....=0D
=0D
Greg Down Under=0D
Greg Poole=0D
STD RG E=0D
----- Original Message -----=0D
From: "jack davis" <n767sd@hotmail.com>=0D
To: <reflector@tvbf.org>=0D
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:06 PM=0D
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed=0D
=0D
=0D
> Yes, I used the triangular GPS calculations as laid out in a Sport=0D
Aviation=0D
> article. I've tried it several times to be sure. I've also made several=
=0D
> long cross-country flights which continually demonstrate I'm getting th=
e=0D
> speed I think I'm getting. Actually, my airspeed indicator use to read=0D
low=0D
> compared to my ground speeds, but the factory helped me get the static=0D
port=0D
> straightend out.=0D
>=0D
> The aircraft I have is a Std-RG Elite with a 200 hp Lycoming LIO-360-C1=
E6=0D
> with oversized cylinders, running an MT prop. Fuel burn at 8500 feet is=
=0D
> usually around 10.5 gph (I usually run a little on the rich side).=0D
>=0D
> I have often told folks that you can get speed gains if you pay attenti=
on=0D
to=0D
> airflow in the boundary layer (typically, the first few millimeters abo=
ve=0D
> the surface). Lots of articles have been written about minimizing the=0D
> "trips" in the boundary layer. I think my biggest contributor is the=0D
flush=0D
> mount windows. This was painstakenly done by routering a grove in the=0D
> window glass so that it would fit flush in the fuselage.=0D
>=0D
> Cheers . . .=0D
>=0D
> Jack=0D
> ----- Original Message -----=0D
> From: "Scott Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>=0D
> To: <reflector@tvbf.org>=0D
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:54 PM=0D
> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed=0D
>=0D
>=0D
> > Jack,=0D
> >=0D
> > Have you flown a fixed triangle course to get these numbers, as GPS=0D
> > ground speed will lie unless you average it over a triangle or square=
=0D
> > course?=0D
> >=0D
> > Thast a very impressive speed, what kind of Velocity, engine, prop ar=
e=0D
> > you using and what is your fuel burn at that speed?=0D
> >=0D
> > Scott=0D
> >=0D
> > jack davis wrote:=0D
> > >>I am not really sure what the speed loss >would be with a good fitt=
ing=0D
> > >=0D
> > > farings. I >think 10kt could be high. I have a IO->360 @210hpw/=0D
> > > 10-1pistons and mt. I >true at 178kts balls to the wall above >8K.=0D
> What=0D
> > > about other' fliers REAL no >B.S. #'s.=0D
> > >=0D
> > > I can honestly say that I get much higher true airspeeds and the GP=
S=0D
> > > confirms what I'm seeing. I true to about 187-190 KTAS. Of course, =
I=0D
> have=0D
> > > made modifications including flush mounted windows, flanged main ge=
ar=0D
> doors=0D
> > > and tightly fitting nose gear doors, aileron gap seals, low drag oi=
l=0D
> cooler=0D
> > > ducting, modified cowling, and tight seams everywhere. I don't know=
=0D
> what=0D
> > > any of these things are worth individually. I am working on a mod=0D
that=0D
> will=0D
> > > completely enclose and streamline the main gear, but don't know if=0D
this=0D
> will=0D
> > > add any more speed. I can tell you that I love every knot I gain.=0D
> > > Aerodynamic efficiencies are so much better than adding more=0D
horsepower.=0D
> > > When you are flying long cross-countries, a 30 or 40 minute cut in=0D
time=0D
> is=0D
> > > well appreciated.=0D
> > >=0D
> > > Jack=0D
> > > _______________________________________________=0D
> > > To change your email address, visit=0D
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=0D
> > >=0D
> > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=0D
> > >=0D
> >=0D
> >=0D
> > _______________________________________________=0D
> > To change your email address, visit=0D
> http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=0D
> >=0D
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=0D
> >=0D
> _______________________________________________=0D
> To change your email address, visit=0D
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=0D
>=0D
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=0D
=0D
_______________________________________________=0D
To change your email address, visit=0D
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=0D
=0D
Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=0D
_______________________________________________=0D
To change your email address, visit http://www.tvbf
org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=0D
=0D
Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=0D
=2E
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AMILY: Arial" width=3D"100%">
<DIV>To answer to your letter after our phone conversation i did ask you =
to send me a photo of the area where the traverse bulkhead is missing and=
i still waiting since ,but i never </DIV>
<DIV>mention i did not install this traverse on the other plane.whic=
h bulkhead i think you talking about is the one above the main gear betwe=
en thw firewhall and the gear bulkhead???Let me know if is the one.</DIV>
<DIV>I told you i was very busy untill june 15th and it was possible afte=
r that time.</DIV>
<DIV>Jean</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=3DIncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></D=
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=3Dreceivestrings>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A href=3D"m=
ailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> Saturday, Ju=
ne 07, 2003 11:13:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A href=3D"mai=
lto:reflector@tvbf.org">'reflector@tvbf.org'</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> RE: REFLE=
CTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I recently bought a Velocity XL RG that was built without transverse=
bulk</DIV>
<DIV>heads. Since the plane was sold as a (0) defect plane, I quizzed the=
</DIV>
<DIV>owner/seller and he, in turn quizzed the Frenchman about the absence=
=2E I did</DIV>
<DIV>not fly the plane for two days (over a weekend) until I could talk t=
o the</DIV>
<DIV>factory, which I visited with the plane on the following Tuesday. Th=
e</DIV>
<DIV>Factory's position, if I may paraphrase, is they are very important,=
but not</DIV>
<DIV>critical for a particular flight. They advised that the bulkhead be<=
/DIV>
<DIV>installed at the very first opportunity.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Frenchman told the fellow that sold the plane to me that he had =
built,</DIV>
<DIV>and was building an additional two or three RGs, in which no transve=
rse were</DIV>
<DIV>installed and that there had been no problems. I'm am not a structur=
al</DIV>
<DIV>engineer (though I stayed at the Holiday Inn last night) but the pur=
pose,</DIV>
<DIV>and need, for the transverse bulkhead seems somewhat evident.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The most obvious event for stressing this area is in event of a hard=
landing</DIV>
<DIV>with simultaneous application brake (say, for sake of discussion, a<=
/DIV>
<DIV>correcting rudder on a narrow runway with a gusting crosswind), impa=
rting</DIV>
<DIV>maximum torsional force on the gear anchor point. (Given my piloting=
</DIV>
<DIV>skills, that's not an impossible sequence of events.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Are the transverse bulkheads necessary? I guess one never knows unti=
l it's</DIV>
<DIV>too late, but if you take a look at the retract gear structure and t=
hink</DIV>
<DIV>about that front bushing floating out there without support, it's no=
t a</DIV>
<DIV>comforting vision. The original design calls for bulkheads to be ins=
talled</DIV>
<DIV>with three layers of triax; a bit of design overkill if they were on=
ly</DIV>
<DIV>cosmetic.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In the Frenchman's defense, he indicated the absence of the bulkhead=
s was</DIV>
<DIV>not an oversight and was intentional, though he offered to install t=
he</DIV>
<DIV>transverse bulkheads at no cost. Clearly a generous offer, though I'=
m</DIV>
<DIV>concerned since, having left a two phone message and two emails, I'v=
e still</DIV>
<DIV>not received any response.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Suffice to say, I'm going to install them, however I have to get it =
done.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chuck</DIV>
<DIV>N27GV, XL RG 300</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-----Original Message-----</DIV>
<DIV>From: <A href=3D"mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org">reflector-admin@tv=
bf.org</A> [<A href=3D"mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org">mailto:reflector-=
admin@tvbf.org</A>]On</DIV>
<DIV>Behalf Of Greg Poole</DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 4:32 AM</DIV>
<DIV>To: <A href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A></DI=
V>
<DIV>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have flush mounted my windows on the same model Velocity (but cann=
ot build</DIV>
<DIV>as quickly as Jack obviously has).While routing the lip on the plexi=
glass</DIV>
<DIV>windows was nerve racking (the router continually wants to write it'=
s name</DIV>
<DIV>on the rest of the window!), the operation was no big deal and readi=
ly easy</DIV>
<DIV>to achieve a good result.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In fact, I am likely to have to do it again if the dark tint glass I=
</DIV>
<DIV>somehow managed to order (I think?) is too dark for night VFR use.</=
DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If this results in the same performance (190kts!!!!!! wow!!!) that J=
ack</DIV>
<DIV>indicates (it was in the back of my mind that this might optimise pa=
ssage</DIV>
<DIV>thru the air) then I am mighty glad I have done it - what is the poi=
nt of</DIV>
<DIV>owning a high performance bird and then tripping it (the bird and th=
e air</DIV>
<DIV>flow) up? Jack .....keep passing on the detailed tips - I'll willing=
ly</DIV>
<DIV>follow your lead including the flanged front gear doors if I can get=
190kts</DIV>
<DIV>(looking seriously at 350HP peak power on a turbo'd 13B Mazda).</DIV=
>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Did someone say that our French mate isn't installing transverse bul=
k</DIV>
<DIV>heads?????? I'd like to know the reasoning.....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Greg Down Under</DIV>
<DIV>Greg Poole</DIV>
<DIV>STD RG E</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV>From: "jack davis" <<A href=3D"mailto:n767sd@hotmail.com">n767sd@=
hotmail.com</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: <<A href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A>=
></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:06 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> Yes, I used the triangular GPS calculations as laid out in a Sp=
ort</DIV>
<DIV>Aviation</DIV>
<DIV>> article. I've tried it several times to be sure. I've also made=
several</DIV>
<DIV>> long cross-country flights which continually demonstrate I'm ge=
tting the</DIV>
<DIV>> speed I think I'm getting. Actually, my airspeed indicator use =
to read</DIV>
<DIV>low</DIV>
<DIV>> compared to my ground speeds, but the factory helped me get the=
static</DIV>
<DIV>port</DIV>
<DIV>> straightend out.</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> The aircraft I have is a Std-RG Elite with a 200 hp Lycoming LI=
O-360-C1E6</DIV>
<DIV>> with oversized cylinders, running an MT prop. Fuel burn at 8500=
feet is</DIV>
<DIV>> usually around 10.5 gph (I usually run a little on the rich sid=
e).</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> I have often told folks that you can get speed gains if you pay=
attention</DIV>
<DIV>to</DIV>
<DIV>> airflow in the boundary layer (typically, the first few millime=
ters above</DIV>
<DIV>> the surface). Lots of articles have been written about minimizi=
ng the</DIV>
<DIV>> "trips" in the boundary layer. I think my biggest contributor i=
s the</DIV>
<DIV>flush</DIV>
<DIV>> mount windows. This was painstakenly done by routering a grove =
in the</DIV>
<DIV>> window glass so that it would fit flush in the fuselage.</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> Cheers . . .</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> Jack</DIV>
<DIV>> ----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV>> From: "Scott Derrick" <<A href=3D"mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net"=
>scott@tnstaafl.net</A>></DIV>
<DIV>> To: <<A href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.or=
g</A>></DIV>
<DIV>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:54 PM</DIV>
<DIV>> Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Re: RG vs. Fixed</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> > Jack,</DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> > Have you flown a fixed triangle course to get these number=
s, as GPS</DIV>
<DIV>> > ground speed will lie unless you average it over a triangl=
e or square</DIV>
<DIV>> > course?</DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> > Thast a very impressive speed, what kind of Velocity, engi=
ne, prop are</DIV>
<DIV>> > you using and what is your fuel burn at that speed?</DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> > Scott</DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> > jack davis wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> > >>I am not really sure what the speed loss >would=
be with a good fitting</DIV>
<DIV>> > ></DIV>
<DIV>> > > farings. I >think 10kt could be high. I have a IO-=
>360 @210hpw/</DIV>
<DIV>> > > 10-1pistons and mt. I >true at 178kts balls to the=
wall above >8K.</DIV>
<DIV>> What</DIV>
<DIV>> > > about other' fliers REAL no >B.S. #'s.</DIV>
<DIV>> > ></DIV>
<DIV>> > > I can honestly say that I get much higher true airspe=
eds and the GPS</DIV>
<DIV>> > > confirms what I'm seeing. I true to about 187-190 KTA=
S. Of course, I</DIV>
<DIV>> have</DIV>
<DIV>> > > made modifications including flush mounted windows, f=
langed main gear</DIV>
<DIV>> doors</DIV>
<DIV>> > > and tightly fitting nose gear doors, aileron gap seal=
s, low drag oil</DIV>
<DIV>> cooler</DIV>
<DIV>> > > ducting, modified cowling, and tight seams everywhere=
=2E I don't know</DIV>
<DIV>> what</DIV>
<DIV>> > > any of these things are worth individually. I am work=
ing on a mod</DIV>
<DIV>that</DIV>
<DIV>> will</DIV>
<DIV>> > > completely enclose and streamline the main gear, but =
don't know if</DIV>
<DIV>this</DIV>
<DIV>> will</DIV>
<DIV>> > > add any more speed. I can tell you that I love every =
knot I gain.</DIV>
<DIV>> > > Aerodynamic efficiencies are so much better than addi=
ng more</DIV>
<DIV>horsepower.</DIV>
<DIV>> > > When you are flying long cross-countries, a 30 or 40 =
minute cut in</DIV>
<DIV>time</DIV>
<DIV>> is</DIV>
<DIV>> > > well appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV>> > ></DIV>
<DIV>> > > Jack</DIV>
<DIV>> > > _______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>> > > To change your email address, visit</DIV>
<DIV>> <A href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector">http=
://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</A></DIV>
<DIV>> > ></DIV>
<DIV>> > > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose</DIV>
<DIV>> > ></DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> > _______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>> > To change your email address, visit</DIV>
<DIV>> <A href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector">http=
://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</A></DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose</DIV>
<DIV>> ></DIV>
<DIV>> _______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>> To change your email address, visit</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector">http://ww=
w.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</A></DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>_______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>To change your email address, visit</DIV>
<DIV><A href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector">http://ww=
w.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose</DIV>
<DIV>_______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>To change your email address, visit <A href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/reflector">http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector=
</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose</DIV>
<DIV>.</DIV></TD></TR>
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