REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent system
alventures
reflector@tvbf.org
Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:01:09 -0700
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Particularly interesting was your observation of the air bubble in the
fuel line that wouldn't go up and the down flowing fuel had a difficult
time pushing it back into the sump. And, this was under what I assume
was ideal conditions, in that the fuel line ran pretty much straight up
from the sump to strake; no humps and dips. Any hump/dip is virtually
assured of causing an air lock (anecdotal speculation), blocking/slowing
fuel flow.
Chuck;
In the qualitative flow tests I did I roughly simulated the line from
the strake to the sump, i.e., relatively horizontal and varying the head
difference over about the range from full to empty strake. I think in a
vertical tube the air would very quickly go one way or the other. Even
when I put a dip in the line the smaller bubbles cleared quickly.
In the actual case where you are feeding from both tanks (as Keith has
pointed out) the bubble would go back to the strake tank because the
flow resisted from one line would be compensated by the other. I
suppose you could get a large bubble in both lines at the same time that
way take a little while to resolve, but it is hard to imagine a
perfectly stable balanced condition lasting very long, meaning like 10
-15 seconds. The sump tank does provide a nice reserve.
Al
To those who are satisfied with to having to wiggle your wings
occasionally, ignore low-level warning lights, only do limited descents
(then having to reload your sump), flying around with who-knows-how-many
gallons of unusable fuel, having to remember to manually burp and vent
the sump and so on ad nauseum, I say NOT!
We all have quirks of one sort or another in our planes, but that
doesn't mean we should accept them, as they are neither dear or beloved.
In some cases, they are innocuous, in others, dangerous and potentially
deadly. They need to be fixed, not tolerated. The fuel flow discussion
is headed in that direction even though we don't seem to be getting
there very fast.
Scott B., your example of the siphoning fuel flow through the sump
(header) vent was illustrative, but easily avoidable. By
interconnecting the vent lines from both tanks and the sump to a common
manifold, then venting that manifold, you can not establish a siphoning
effect because all of three system components are under the exact same
pressure, beit negative or positive.
Even if the single vent line pointed backward, the vacuum created would
have to overcome the 1' of head from the tank to the sump to impede
flow. If it pointed forward, it would slightly pressurize all three
tanks, thus having no effect. If one of the caps is leaking air, no big
deal because the air pressure is the same in both mains since they are
interconnected. By making the atmosphere common to all three tanks,
this issue of negative/positive pressure goes away and we rely on
gravity to do it's job, which it does with admirable consistency.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]On
Behalf Of alventures
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 12:29 AM
To: reflector@tvbf.org
Subject: REFLECTOR:Fuel and vent sytem
This has been an interesting discussion, and a lot of it focused on the
vent system. Someone questioned the validity of the fuel system design.
I think there is an element of the design which is an inherent weakness,
and which is at the root of these observed problems.
Consider that the bottom of our fuel tank is about at the bottom of the
spar. The top of the sump tank is just below the spar. Our friendly
float valve just a couple inches below that. Now note that a 1" head of
fuel is only about 0.03 psi. Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our
tanks are full we have about 0.3 psi of pressure driving the fuel to the
sump when the sump is full. When the strake is nearly empty, that
pressure is about 0.05 psi. This increases just slightly as the sump
drains down to expose the inlet from the strake, but that's as high as
it's going to get no matter how far the sump drains - the head that
drives the fuel can only go as far the exit at the sump.
So how much of a disturbance does it take to cause a problem. Damn
little - like a little cap leak, or partially plugged vent, or whatever.
And the float valve is right there at the top of the sump, so if the
sump drains down a little, no matter how temporary, the light goes on.
Does this blinking light issue come up more frequently on Velocitys with
IO540 engines that are using fuel at a higher rate?
So one obvious physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is
that without the sump vent we don't have to rely on that very small
gravity head for fuel feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to
assist if needed. (of course if the fuel is very warm and the vapor
pressure gets high there won't be much suction ability either, but that
is not likely an issue).
Now don't let these low pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did
some flow tests a couple of years ago with a 3/8" vinyl tube where I
could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a couple of things.
One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, even with only a
few inches of head, was "pretty fast". I didn't measure what that meant
in gph, but I'm going to guess that two tubes can run over 10 gph just
fine. And experience bears that out. Surely someone has measured the
gravity flow from the tanks, right? What is it?
The second thing was that air bubbles, for the most part, didn't seem to
be an issue. With very low flow they would migrate up stream, but it
didn't take much flow for them to easily get carried with the flow and
into the container. These bubbles varied from very small to maybe an
inch or so long in the tube.
I say 'for the most part' because there was one thing that caught my
attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and air
in the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble,
the fuel was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of
the tube. It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel.
Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface.
I don't know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to the sump is
an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely to be
submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the strake,
and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air.
It may take a little while for the air to resolve where it's going;
upstream or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump
it will hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when
we open the purge valve.
I can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its
way back to the strake; but, don't forget, that won't happen until the
air builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the
stake tank - at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or
blinking.
So the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed
in an airplane where the design doesn't give us much of a gravity head
(pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus - simplicity. We can always do
as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the fuel from
the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, and
maybe valving off the sump vent.
One further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel
is bypassed back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to
vent the sump to avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that
form as a result of the sudden expansion coming out of the pressure
regulator. Maybe they will re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from
valving off the sump vent.
Sorry to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message
got posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a
copy of what I post.
Al
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Particularly =
interesting
was your observation of the air bubble in the fuel line that wouldn't go =
up and
the down flowing fuel had a difficult time pushing it back into the =
sump.
And, this was under what I assume was ideal conditions, in that the fuel =
line
ran pretty much straight up from the sump to strake; no humps and =
dips.
Any hump/dip is virtually assured of causing an air lock (anecdotal =
speculation),
blocking/slowing fuel flow.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Chuck;</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>In the qualitative flow tests I =
did I
roughly simulated the line from the strake to the sump, i.e., relatively
horizontal and varying the head difference over about the range from =
full to
empty strake. I think in a vertical tube the air would very =
quickly go
one way or the other. Even when I put a dip in the line the =
smaller
bubbles cleared quickly.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> In the actual case where =
you are
feeding from both tanks (as Keith has pointed out) the bubble would go =
back to
the strake tank because the flow resisted from one line would be =
compensated by
the other. I suppose you could get a large bubble in both lines at =
the
same time that way take a little while to resolve, but it is hard to =
imagine a
perfectly stable balanced condition lasting very long, meaning like 10 =
-15
seconds. The sump tank does provide a nice =
reserve.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Al</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>To those who are
satisfied with to having to wiggle your wings occasionally,
ignore low-level warning lights, only do limited descents (then =
having to
reload your sump), flying around with who-knows-how-many gallons of =
unusable
fuel, having to remember to manually burp and vent the sump and so on ad
nauseum, I say NOT!</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>We all have =
quirks of one
sort or another in our planes, but that doesn't mean we should accept =
them, as
they are neither dear or beloved. In some cases, they are =
innocuous, in
others, dangerous and potentially deadly. They need to be =
fixed, not
tolerated. The fuel flow discussion is headed in that direction =
even
though we don't seem to be getting there very fast.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Scott B., your =
example of
the siphoning fuel flow through the sump (header) vent was illustrative, =
but
easily avoidable. By interconnecting the vent lines from both =
tanks and
the sump to a common manifold, then venting that manifold, you can not
establish a siphoning effect because all of three system components are =
under
the exact same pressure, beit negative or positive. =
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Even if the =
single vent
line pointed backward, the vacuum created would have to overcome =
the 1' of
head from the tank to the sump to impede flow. If it pointed =
forward, it
would slightly pressurize all three tanks, thus having no effect. =
If one
of the caps is leaking air, no big deal because the air pressure is the =
same in
both mains since they are interconnected. By making the atmosphere =
common
to all three tanks, this issue of negative/positive pressure goes away =
and we
rely on gravity to do it's job, which it does with admirable =
consistency.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Chuck</span></fon=
t></p>
</div>
<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
reflector-admin@tvbf.org
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of
</span></b>alventures<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Sunday, July
27, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>12:29 =
AM</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
reflector@tvbf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> REFLECTOR:Fuel =
and vent
sytem</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>This has been an =
interesting
discussion, and a lot of it focused on the vent system. Someone
questioned the validity of the fuel system design. I think there =
is an
element of the design which is an inherent weakness, and which is at the =
root
of these observed problems. </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Consider that the bottom =
of our
fuel tank is about at the bottom of the spar. The top of the sump =
tank is
just below the spar. Our friendly float valve just a couple inches =
below
that. Now note that a 1” head of fuel is only about 0.03 =
psi.
Yeah, 3 one hundreds of a psi. When our tanks are full we have =
about 0.3
psi of pressure driving the fuel to the sump when the sump is =
full. When
the strake is nearly empty, that pressure is about 0.05 psi. This
increases just slightly as the sump drains down to expose the inlet from =
the
strake, but that’s as high as it’s going to get no matter =
how far
the sump drains – the head that drives the fuel can only go as far =
the
exit at the sump.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>So how much of a =
disturbance does
it take to cause a problem. Damn little – like a little cap =
leak,
or partially plugged vent, or whatever. And the float valve is =
right
there at the top of the sump, so if the sump drains down a little, no =
matter
how temporary, the light goes on. Does this blinking light issue =
come up
more frequently on Velocitys with IO540 engines that are using fuel at a =
higher
rate?</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>So one =
obvious
physics reason for not having a vent to the sump tank is that without =
the sump
vent we don’t have to rely on that very small gravity head for =
fuel
feed. The fuel pump suction head is there to assist if =
needed</span></font></b><font
face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-family:Verdana'>. (of course if =
the fuel
is very warm and the vapor pressure gets high there won’t be much =
suction
ability either, but that is not likely an issue).</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Now don’t let these =
low
pressure head numbers scare you too bad. I did<font color=3Dblack><span
style=3D'color:black'> some flow tests a couple of years ago with a =
3/8”
vinyl tube where I could watch what happened, and it convinced me of a =
couple
of things. One is that, because of the low viscosity, fuel flow, =
even
with only a few inches of head, was “pretty fast”. I =
didn’t
measure what that meant in gph, but I’m going to guess that two =
tubes can
run over 10 gph just fine. And experience bears that out. =
Surely
someone has measured the gravity flow from the tanks, right? What =
is it?</span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>The
second thing was that air bubbles, <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>for the
most part</span></b>, didn’t seem to be an issue. With very =
low
flow they would migrate up stream, but it didn’t take much flow =
for them
to easily get carried with the flow and into the container. These =
bubbles
varied from very small to maybe an inch or so long in the tube. =
</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>I
say ‘for the most part’ because there was one thing that =
caught my
attention. With the bottom end of the tube submerged in fuel, and =
air in
the tube, adding fuel to the tube which trapped a big (long) bubble, the =
fuel
was very reluctant to flow when that bubble came to the end of the tube.
It took a bit of head to get that air to bubble into fuel.
Apparently has to do with the surface tension at the air-fuel interface.
I don’t know if this is an issue or not, but the entrance to =
the
sump is an end of a tube (though a different geometry) and it is likely =
to be
submerged. And one can envision that with low fuel level in the =
strake,
and we do a little nose down for awhile, the line could fill with air. =
It
may take a little while for the air to resolve where it’s going; =
upstream
or into the sump tank. And of course, with no vent in the sump it =
will
hang around at the top of the tank until the next preflight when we open =
the
purge valve.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>I
can believe that air trapped in a sump without a vent would find its way =
back
to the strake; but, don’t forget, that won’t happen until =
the air
builds in the top of the sump down to the level of the tube from the =
stake tank
– at which point the low fuel light will probably be on or
blinking. </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>So
the inherent weakness in the system design is relying on gravity feed in =
an
airplane where the design doesn’t give us much of a gravity head
(pressure). Gravity feed is also a plus – simplicity. =
We can
always do as Jean suggested, and all the low-wing planes do; pump the =
fuel from
the strakes. Or we can be meticulous about sealing the fuel caps, =
and
maybe valving off the sump vent.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>One
further note for those of us with fuel injection engines where fuel is =
bypassed
back from the pressure regulator to the sump; we may need to vent the =
sump to
avoid the buildup of bubbles of vapor fractions that form as a result of =
the
sudden expansion coming out of the pressure regulator. Maybe they =
will
re-condense; or maybe we are precluded from valving off the sump =
vent.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Sorry
to ramble on. Someone please respond so I know if this message got
posted, because some e-mail bug still prevents me from getting a copy of =
what I
post.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Al</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DNimrod><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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