REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
Greg Poole
reflector@tvbf.org
Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:12:57 +1000
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Hey Jeff,
Can you stop "yelling"? ...the big bold type posts are not that easy to =
scan compared to the usual.
Well - somebody had to say it!
Greg in Sydney.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jeffrey Clough=20
To: reflector@tvbf.org=20
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
I agree! I think we were just 'what if-ing' a SIMPLE fail safe way =
to rule out a false positive due to the points you mention...I certainly =
do not want to add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler =
system of thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have =
the answer yet!
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Scott Derrick" <scott@tnstaafl.net>
To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> I wonder about fire detection equipment.
>=20
> You don't want false positives, that could be as bad or worse than a =
> real fire. If I thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, =
the=20
> speed brake, at cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and =
shock=20
> cooling that mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find =
out=20
> later that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed =
off=20
> field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... =
not good.
>=20
> I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, multiple cameras, MUX =
boxes=20
> and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy these folks have never =
owned=20
> and maintained a flying airplane before." It takes a major amount =
of=20
> time and money to keep a standard radio stack alive and well, now =
you=20
> want to add more?
>=20
> I realize that an engine fire is not as apparent in a pusher, but=20
> exactly how many airplanes have gone down because of a fire where =
people=20
> died? Would money and time be better spent on really clean and =
secure=20
> engine installations?
>=20
> Scott
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Fred Marconi wrote:
> > SOME TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST =
WITH A
> > WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. =
at THAT
> > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH TEMPERATURE A SIGN OF =
FIRE AND
> > LAND.
> >=20
> > FRED
> >=20
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: "Hiroo Umeno" <humeno@microsoft.com>
> > To: <reflector@tvbf.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM
> > Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >>Pat,
> >>
> >>CCDs are quite vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data =
sheets
> >>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the engine
> >>compartment is likely to far exceed the allowable heat rating of =
most
> >>low-cost CCDs.
> >>
> >>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux based on
> >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to put this in the same =
housing
> >>with the LCD so that there are four buttons that corresponds to =
each
> >>cams I can switch through. The cool thing about using the PIC is =
that I
> >>can set it to "scan" every so often as well.
> >>
> >>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following locations. =
Co-pilot
> >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under nose looking =
forward-down,
> >>overhead duct capturing panel.
> >>
> >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing (www.earthlcd.com) =
usually
> >>has some good selection of them. You can also scour some of the =
surplus
> >>electronics outlet and get a fairly good deal if you are not =
particular
> >>about specific device you are looking for.
> >>
> >>Hiroo
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: reflector-admin@tvbf.org [mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] =
On
> >>Behalf Of Pat Shea
> >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM
> >>To: reflector@tvbf.org
> >>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection
> >>
> >>Hiroo,
> >>
> >>I'm leaning towards keeping the small CCD cams in the
> >>engine compartment primarily for fire detection. It
> >>looks like it's going to take two to get full coverage
> >>of the critical areas. There may also be some benefit,
> >>at least during the tweaking stage, of being able to
> >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl during
> >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means an A/B
> >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was able to
> >>find a company that sells a color, waterproof,
> >>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount:
> >>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look
> >>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the
> >>screen) - any leads on a good source for these??
> >>
> >>Pat
> >>
> >>--- Hiroo Umeno <humeno@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>One idea may be to install the "wingtip cam". I
> >>>have been researching
> >>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on the
> >>>wingtip (perhaps on
> >>>the lower winglet) that can be panned. Not only it
> >>>would offer a way to
> >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but it
> >>>will also serve as
> >>>"rear-view mirror" when starting engine, and offer a
> >>>feed for your
> >>>in-flight footage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The cameras can be had for less than $100 these
> >>>days, and a small LCD
> >>>monitors can be had for about the same.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Hiroo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>__________________________________
> >>Do you Yahoo!?
> >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> >>http://sbc.yahoo.com
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>To change your email address, visit
> >>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >>
> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>To change your email address, visit
> >=20
> > http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >=20
> >>Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >>
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > To change your email address, visit =
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
> >=20
> > Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> To change your email address, visit =
http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector
>=20
> Visit the gallery! tvbf:jamaicangoose=20
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Hey Jeff,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Can you stop "yelling"? ...the big bold =
type=20
posts are not that easy to scan compared to the usual.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Well - somebody had to say it!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Greg in Sydney.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djclough@alaska.net =
href=3D"mailto:jclough@alaska.net">Jeffrey=20
Clough</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dreflector@tvbf.org=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org">reflector@tvbf.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 18, 2003 =
5:10 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
REFLECTOR:Secondary fire=20
detection</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>I agree! I think we were =
just=20
'what if-ing' a <U>SIMPLE</U> fail safe way to <U>rule out</U> a =
false=20
positive due to the points you mention...I certainly do not want to=20
add a MORE complex system to monitor the original/simpler =
system of=20
thermal fuses (which I plan to have). I certainly do not have the =
answer=20
yet!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>----- Original Message ----- =
</FONT></STRONG>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>From: "Scott Derrick" =
<</FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"mailto:scott@tnstaafl.net"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>scott@tnstaafl.net</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>To: <</FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>reflector@tvbf.org</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 9:10=20
PM</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>Subject: Re: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire=20
detection</FONT></STRONG></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><BR><FONT size=3D4></FONT></STRONG></DIV><STRONG><FONT =
size=3D4>>=20
I wonder about fire detection equipment.<BR>> <BR>> You don't =
want false=20
positives, that could be as bad or worse than a <BR>> real =
fire. If I=20
thought I was on fire I'm throwing the gear out, the <BR>> speed =
brake, at=20
cruise speed, pulling the engine back to idle and shock <BR>> =
cooling that=20
mother on the way down at one knot under VNE! TO find out =
<BR>> later=20
that you put your gear doors through the prop and then landed off =
<BR>>=20
field and removed the rest of the gear because of a false alarm... not =
good.<BR>> <BR>> I keep hearing ideas about multiple sensors, =
multiple=20
cameras, MUX boxes <BR>> and what not. My cynical nature says "Boy =
these=20
folks have never owned <BR>> and maintained a flying airplane=20
before." It takes a major amount of <BR>> time and money to =
keep a=20
standard radio stack alive and well, now you <BR>> want to add=20
more?<BR>> <BR>> I realize that an engine fire is not as =
apparent in a=20
pusher, but <BR>> exactly how many airplanes have gone down because =
of a=20
fire where people <BR>> died? Would money and time be better =
spent on=20
really clean and secure <BR>> engine installations?<BR>> =
<BR>>=20
Scott<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Fred Marconi wrote:<BR>> =
> SOME=20
TYPE OF TEMPERATURE MEASURING DEVICE WOULD BE THE SIMPLEST WITH =
A<BR>> >=20
WARNING SIGNAL WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GETS ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL. =
at=20
THAT<BR>> > POINT NO QUESTIONS ASKED CONSIDER THE HIGH =
TEMPERATURE A=20
SIGN OF FIRE AND<BR>> > LAND.<BR>> > <BR>> > =
FRED<BR>>=20
> <BR>> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> > From: =
"Hiroo=20
Umeno" <</FONT></STRONG><A =
href=3D"mailto:humeno@microsoft.com"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>humeno@microsoft.com</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>><BR>> > To: <</FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>reflector@tvbf.org</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT =
size=3D4>><BR>>=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:45 PM<BR>> > Subject: RE:=20
REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> =
>=20
<BR>> >>Pat,<BR>> >><BR>> >>CCDs are quite=20
vulnerable to heat. You need to look at the data sheets<BR>>=20
>>for the operating temperature range. The heat inside the =
engine<BR>> >>compartment is likely to far exceed the =
allowable heat=20
rating of most<BR>> >>low-cost CCDs.<BR>> >><BR>> =
>>As for switcher, I am currently designing a 4:1 video mux =
based=20
on<BR>> >>LT1204 device and a PIC. I am intending to =
put this=20
in the same housing<BR>> >>with the LCD so that there are =
four=20
buttons that corresponds to each<BR>> >>cams I can switch=20
through. The cool thing about using the PIC is that I<BR>>=20
>>can set it to "scan" every so often as well.<BR>> =
>><BR>>=20
>>I am thinking of mounting cams on the following =
locations. =20
Co-pilot<BR>> >>side bottom winglet (180 degree pan), under =
nose=20
looking forward-down,<BR>> >>overhead duct capturing =
panel.<BR>>=20
>><BR>> >>For supplies of LCD panels, Earth Computing=20
(</FONT></STRONG><A href=3D"http://www.earthlcd.com"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>www.earthlcd.com</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT size=3D4>)=20
usually<BR>> >>has some good selection of them. You can =
also=20
scour some of the surplus<BR>> >>electronics outlet and get a =
fairly=20
good deal if you are not particular<BR>> >>about specific =
device you=20
are looking for.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Hiroo<BR>>=20
>><BR>> >><BR>> >>-----Original =
Message-----<BR>>=20
>>From: </FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>reflector-admin@tvbf.org</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT =
size=3D4>=20
[mailto:reflector-admin@tvbf.org] On<BR>> >>Behalf Of Pat=20
Shea<BR>> >>Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 11:23 AM<BR>>=20
>>To: </FONT></STRONG><A =
href=3D"mailto:reflector@tvbf.org"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>reflector@tvbf.org</FONT></STRONG></A><BR><STRONG><FONT =
size=3D4>>=20
>>Subject: RE: REFLECTOR:Secondary fire detection<BR>>=20
>><BR>> >>Hiroo,<BR>> >><BR>> >>I'm =
leaning=20
towards keeping the small CCD cams in the<BR>> >>engine =
compartment=20
primarily for fire detection. It<BR>> >>looks like it's going =
to take=20
two to get full coverage<BR>> >>of the critical areas. There =
may also=20
be some benefit,<BR>> >>at least during the tweaking stage, =
of being=20
able to<BR>> >>see/record what's going on inside the cowl=20
during<BR>> >>flight (tuft testing?). Two cams either means =
an=20
A/B<BR>> >>switch, two monitors, or a split screen. I was =
able=20
to<BR>> >>find a company that sells a color, =
waterproof,<BR>>=20
>>"helmet" cam w/ a cool aluminum protective mount:<BR>>=20
>>www.helmetcamera.com. I haven't had a chance to look<BR>>=20
>>at LCD monitors yet (or the ability to split the<BR>>=20
>>screen) - any leads on a good source for these??<BR>>=20
>><BR>> >>Pat<BR>> >><BR>> >>--- =
Hiroo Umeno=20
<</FONT></STRONG><A =
href=3D"mailto:humeno@microsoft.com"><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>humeno@microsoft.com</FONT></STRONG></A><STRONG><FONT =
size=3D4>>=20
wrote:<BR>> >><BR>> >>>One idea may be to install =
the=20
"wingtip cam". I<BR>> >>>have been =
researching<BR>>=20
>>>this but one could install a small CCD camera on =
the<BR>>=20
>>>wingtip (perhaps on<BR>> >>>the lower winglet) =
that=20
can be panned. Not only it<BR>> >>>would offer a way =
to<BR>> >>>"see" if your cowl is blowing smoke / fire but=20
it<BR>> >>>will also serve as<BR>> =
>>>"rear-view=20
mirror" when starting engine, and offer a<BR>> >>>feed for =
your<BR>> >>>in-flight footage.<BR>> =
>>><BR>>=20
>>><BR>> >>><BR>> >>>The cameras can =
be had=20
for less than $100 these<BR>> >>>days, and a small =
LCD<BR>>=20
>>>monitors can be had for about the same.<BR>>=20
>>><BR>> >>><BR>> >>><BR>>=20
>>>Hiroo<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>> =
>><BR>>=20
>>__________________________________<BR>> >>Do you=20
Yahoo!?<BR>> >>SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per =
month!<BR>>=20
>>http://sbc.yahoo.com<BR>>=20
>>_______________________________________________<BR>> =
>>To=20
change your email address, visit<BR>>=20
>>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector<BR>>=20
>><BR>> >>Visit the gallery! =
tvbf:jamaicangoose<BR>>=20
>><BR>>=20
>>_______________________________________________<BR>> =
>>To=20
change your email address, visit<BR>> > <BR>> > =
</FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><STRONG><FONT=20
=
size=3D4>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></STRONG></=
A><BR><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>> > <BR>> >>Visit the gallery! =20
tvbf:jamaicangoose<BR>> >><BR>> > <BR>> > =
<BR>> >=20
_______________________________________________<BR>> > To change =
your=20
email address, visit </FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><STRONG><FONT=20
=
size=3D4>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></STRONG></=
A><BR><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>> > <BR>> > Visit the gallery! =20
tvbf:jamaicangoose<BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>=20
_______________________________________________<BR>> To change your =
email=20
address, visit </FONT></STRONG><A=20
href=3D"http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector"><STRONG><FONT=20
=
size=3D4>http://www.tvbf.org/mailman/listinfo/reflector</FONT></STRONG></=
A><BR><STRONG><FONT=20
size=3D4>> <BR>> Visit the gallery! =20
tvbf:jamaicangoose</FONT></STRONG> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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